IRC Logs for #cmvt Wednesday, 2013-06-05

*** robertpyke has joined #cmvt00:06
DanielBairdhola, Robert00:06
robertpykeG'day, I have uncovered the mysterious join channel drop-down in empathy :D00:06
DanielBairdare you using empathy for google chat?00:07
DanielBairdor jsut browser window00:07
robertpykejust browser window00:07
robertpykeI usually keep gmail open at all times00:07
robertpykeand I have desktop-notifications enabled, so it's all good.00:07
DanielBairdi think google have frozen out all third party clients by dropping proper XMPP00:07
robertpykeI think Marianne mentioned that. :(00:08
DanielBairdgoing by their past examples, they'll maintain hangouts chat for a few years until all other IM programs die off, then they'll just drop hangouts completely and fuck you all00:09
robertpykethey'll introduce some kind of project Google spandex  to replace it00:10
DanielBaird"we'll keep the mapping satellites, the email clients, the phone OS, the targeted ads, the online office suite, the self driving cars, and the brazilian social network, but we have to drop our RSS reader so we can focus."00:11
DanielBairdthen: "Hey, lets get into wearable computer hardware!"00:11
robertpykethey need to focus00:13
robertpykeit's hard being google.00:13
robertpykelol, anyway, I feel like the open-source community has done a double take, and pushed google towards the Oracle end of the spectrum00:14
robertpykeso in future, they may not just let the google take-over the next RSS app.00:14
robertpykeSo codename J*$@s is prologic, right?00:17
prologichi rob :)00:17
prologicI was pointed to
prologicwhich I absolutely love00:17
prologicway better (UI perspective) than any others I've tried00:18
robertpykeI didn't know if you wanted your name plastered on the internets00:18
prologicmy name is al over the internet :)00:18
prologicgoogle for "James Mills prologic"00:18
DanielBairdi;m on feedly at the moment, it's phone app interface is only fairly shitty which is better than every other one.00:19
prologicI could not stand reading stuff like that00:19
prologicawful experience for me00:19
prologicI just wanted an RSS reader like Google Reader was00:19
prologicplain and simple00:19
prologica list of my feeds (only updates ones)00:19
prologicand a list of sorted articles00:20
prologicI did like the "Sort by Magic" though00:20
DanielBairdi never liked any sorting apart from "oldest first"00:20
prologicI'm going to submit a feature request that comma feed implement this00:20
robertpykeI refused to use RSS feeds, based on the idea that my friends would recommend articles through Google+00:20
prologica simple baysian filter should do the trick :)00:20
prologicwell I'm no fan of Google+ myself00:21
robertpykeI feel that for those that don't know me well enough, I should have captured my last comment in sarcasm tags00:21
prologicbut I do like RSS feeds00:21
prologicI wish we'd (as a whole) stop bastardizing the technology00:21
DanielBairdyeah the theoretical alternative to syndication of a news source is that your friends will recommend stuff (on twitter / FB / G+) from the wider internet.  but all my friends are either jerks, who link to dumb stuff, or real people, who link to a broader set of stuff that what i'm interested in.00:23
prologicthat doesn't and has never worked for me00:24
prologicmostly (I think) because I can't stand social networking sites00:25
prologicthe very concept is time consuming and full of noise00:25
prologicI can barely tolerate Twitter00:25
prologicand even then I hardly check my timeline or post tweets00:25
DanielBairdyeah i have ended up only following comedians and one or two tech people via twitter.00:25
prologicwho has time for this shit anyway when you're working and looking after a family?00:25
prologicalso on the other hand I believe that such things are diminishing the social aspects of society and people's ability to communicate effectively00:26
robertpykeAnyway, I'm here to report to you, prologic, that I'm starting work on my Geo Server, which will feed maps and features to the virtual labs Plone app (the client).00:26
robertpykeMy current plan is to provide a RESTful JSON api, with GeoJSON capabilities for features. While also providing a WMS interface for maps. I'm also looking at supporting WFS requests, but that depends on how awesome the GeoJSON interface is.00:26
robertpykeI intend to build this Geo Server in Pyramid, using GeoAlchemy as the ORM for PostGIS. PostGIS provides "toGeoJSON" powers, so I'll likely do most of my features processing at the DB layer. I'll also write some python magic scripts for pre-processing where necessary (pre-clustering/caching/etc)00:26
prologicI find chatting (in any form) a better solution than social  crap like tweets, follow me, like this, like that blah blah blah balh00:27
prologicsounds good00:28
prologicbut also sounds like a lot of what I'm also doing00:28
prologicexcept in mapserver00:28
prologicwith geotif and shapefiles00:28
prologicopted not to use postgis because it doesn't buy me anything really00:28
robertpykeokay, no worries. I've been using the PostGIS powers to do clustering and caching in past projects (more feature related)00:29
prologicI wish we could collaborate more on this together00:29
prologicbut I fear we may not be able to :)00:29
DanielBairdyou're both doing some JSON discovery API stuff though?00:29
robertpykeYes, indeedly00:30
prologicyeah well I'd like to know how you plan to do all the restful stuff00:30
prologicI haven't as yet figured out how I'm going to version my apis00:30
prologicor what that'll look like in code00:30
prologicalso I'm mostly keeping my code mostly wsgi-ish00:30
robertpykegoogle just leads with /api/version/query (e.g. /api/1)00:31
prologicso you could rip out circuits.web and replace with flast, bottle, cherrypy, pyramid, etc00:31
prologici.e: I'm trying to write web framework agnostic code00:31
prologicyeah - but what does that look like in code?00:31
robertpykeI'm still learning about this whole wsgi thing, I intend to use the routing option of pyramid, rather than the traversal option00:31
prologicwhat patterns help with this?00:31
prologicin the naivest approach I thought of just keeping copies of classes/controllers00:32
prologicclass Summaries1: ...00:32
prologicclass Summaries2: ...00:32
prologicbut that's fairly limiting00:32
prologicas you can only have whole version numbers00:32
prologicroutes / uri traversal00:32
prologicit's all the same00:33
prologicroutes just lets you do regex matching on the uri00:33
prologicrobertpyke:  you could reuse a lot of ccav's project structure if you like00:33
prologicin terms of a starting point00:34
prologicfabric tasks00:34
prologicautomated remote deployments00:34
prologiceven use the playbooks as a starting point for a real vm/server that your stuff would run on00:34
robertpykeI'v got my VM and pyramid install setup. I'm still just learning the ropes of the python web framework world.00:35
robertpykeI've watched some videos, so now I finally get where the hell Zope came from00:35
robertpykebut anyway, I'll let you know some more info once I get a more into it.00:35
prologiczone has nothing to do with pyramid afaik00:35
prologicpyramid is the successor to pylons00:36
robertpykeso pyramid was supposedly inspired by zope, pylons and Django00:37
robertpykeanyway, I watched an evolution of web frameworks in Python00:37
robertpykewent back to 1999 or something00:37
prologicI think cherrypy was one of the first00:37
prologicand oldest00:37
prologicit does indeed use zope.interfaces00:39
robertpykeanyway, history lessons aside, I'm starting to get the way that the framework generators etc. work in Pyramid, so hopefully, in the not too distant future, I'll start to have some more of a detailed outlook on how I'll build this thing ;)00:39
prologicbut that's the only zone it uses00:39
prologicare we sure we can't reuse a lot of each other's codebase? :)00:40
prologicI was hoping we could00:40
prologicafaik you'll also be dealing with lots of rasters and vectors00:41
robertpykein the meantime, my task is not very well defined, as such, my api is not well defined. My plan is to build a basic "collections" api with json indexing, pagination, etc, and put the GeoJSON objects at the bottom. Once that's done, I'll have to wait until Jeremy says jump.. then my API will be more clear00:41
prologicand possibly preprocessing of such00:41
robertpykeyep, that shouldn't be too much of a hassle, I intend to support the Geometry type, so all vectors should be a-okay00:42
robertpykeand I'll likely just use WMS to handle the raster requests, until it becomes clear that I can't ;)00:42
prologichmm that's not what I mean :)00:42
robertpykeplease explain ;)00:43
robertpykeI need a "... is typing" indicator...00:44
DanielBairdwe should start up a new IRC-type standard!  and fix all the things that are wrong with IRC!00:44
DanielBairdsorry should just let guys guys talk00:44
robertpykeI shall type on.. to fill the momentary void.. so if we're in a projection, the base type of all features is Geometry. So all polygon, lines, multipoints, multipolygons, etc. should be of type Geometry. In our past project, when these were embedded in shapefiles, we were able to pull them out, and push them into postgis00:46
robertpykewhich turned them into geometry features, and we could then manipulate them using our postgis powers, specifically, WFS SQL. Which we used to simplify the polygons00:47
robertpykeAnyway, I shall pause here. Let me know what you meant by "that's not what I mean" when you get the chance. And then I shall become enlightened :D Until then, I will continue to live on in fear of the unknown.00:51
prologicwhat I meant was this01:03
prologicI was hoping our two projects (at least from a backend) could reuse code from each other01:04
prologicand perhaps share some common code base01:04
prologicas for postgis powers, etc01:04
prologicShapefiles already store geometries and features01:04
prologicfiona + numpy + shapely01:04
prologicgive me all the same postgis powers that you describe01:04
prologicwith mostly the same performance characteristis01:05
prologicat least I'm aware that postgis and spatiality both use the same set of libraries and indexes01:05
prologicafaik we're not going to be serving up dynamic features01:06
prologicat least not with ccav01:06
prologicso postgis (for me) doesn't buy me anything in particular01:06
prologicas it stands now I'm already thinking I'm going to have to preprocess and cache all the summary data01:07
prologicas I have to perform intersections against a collection of regions and clip and mask against many raster layers (climate models)01:07
robertpykeHow are you doing the caching. In our previous project, I build a pre-processor that clustered data for different zoom, levels, and then stored them in cache tables.01:10
robertpykeAre you storing your cached results in new shapefiles?01:10
prologiccached results for?01:11
robertpykeyou mentioned caching the summary data.01:11
prologicwell preprocessing it01:11
prologicessentially only computing it once01:12
prologicI'm not sure what you mean re zoom levels, etc01:12
prologicafaik I haven't come across such requirements for any of this (yet)01:12
prologicsummary data that powers the d3 charts dan wrote up01:13
prologicwill all be statically computed data01:13
prologicmap tiles I'll just render and service with map server and mapscript01:13
prologicwith possibly a tile cache in front01:13
robertpykeokay, cool. I thought you were talking about pre-processing your raster-able content, and then caching the results in shapefiles or something. But now I'm following you. In our past project, the pre-processing was done on features, specifically point data. So we generated cluster information for the user at different zoom levels. Zoom levels being the zoom of the client's map. So as they zoomed, we provided them with smaller clust01:16
robertpykeers. The benefit of PostGIS in that case was when you use bounding boxes for the point data, PostGIS can speed that process up through geometry column meta data.01:16
robertpykei.e. magics ;)01:16
DanielBairdin this project rob the data is summarised across specified regions (e.g. IBRA regions) so no multi-level zooming01:16
robertpykeNo zoom... my world is blown. I salute you requirements gatherers01:17
DanielBairdwell the raster layers will zoom.01:17
DanielBairdand actually there was talk of people drawing in their own regions.  but that's an optional feature01:17
robertpykewhich according to your extreme programming methodology, makes in an unlikely feature ;)01:18
prologicyeah so far there's nothing so complex01:19
prologicjust dealing with data really01:19
prologicand serving it up01:19
prologicbut large quanities of data :)01:19
prologicoptional means "if we have time"01:20
prologicwhich we never do01:20
robertpykecan I please get access to your repo kind sirs.01:20
prologicbecause enough time is never given :)01:20
prologicyou got a bitbucket user account?01:20
robertpykeI figure if I can glance across occasionally, or in my time of need, then I might benefit.01:20
robertpykeyep, I do01:20
robertpykeI'll find my username01:20
DanielBairdyeah it will always come down to "make core feature better/work properly" vs. "add optional feature" and the optional stuff never outweighs the core stuff01:20
robertpyke(my email will be
prologicyeah sorry :) I'm a bitbucket/mercurial fan :)01:20
robertpykeI like bitbuckets free private repos01:21
robertpykeoh package manager, how I love thee.01:22
prologicyeah there are other repos in the team account01:22
robertpykeI didn't have mercurial, now I do :D01:22
prologicwhat's your username?01:22
prologicI'll give you read/write access to the repos01:22
prologicbrew install mercurial :)01:22
prologicor if you had pip01:22
prologicpip install mercurial01:22
prologicbtw if you have not discovered already01:22
robertpykeapt-get install mercurial ... boom .. Ubuntu in my house01:23
prologicI highly recommend you learn how to use pip and virtualenv (and it's bash helper friend virtualenvwrapper)01:23
robertpykemy username is brimstone481401:23
prologicit'll make your life of so easy01:23
robertpykeI'm currently using virtualenv, as the pyramid guide said to do these steps01:23
robertpykeand that was one them ;)01:23
robertpykeit also said to do bin/easy_install within the virtual env01:24
robertpykeso I'm also doing that01:24
prologicbitbucket is celebrating it's 1,000,000th user01:24
prologicawesome stuff01:24
prologicyeah on top of that learn pip/virtualenvwrapper01:25
prologicyou'll love it :)01:25
prologicpip has mostly replaced easy_install01:25
prologicand is mostly compatible01:25
prologicalso I added you as a developer to ccaih on bitbucket01:25
prologicyou should have full read/write access to the repos01:25
prologicshould you wish to contribute :)01:25
robertpykeokay, cool.01:25
robertpykeIt's unlikely that I will, but I enjoy the feeling of power that I now hold...01:26
DanielBaird1mm users, that's approaching a third of github's user count.  pretty good for backyarders like bitbucket01:26
prologiclet's not forget that many github users are also ghosts :)01:26
prologicsame would be true of some of bitbucket's user base01:26
robertpykeGhosts are the worst users...01:26
prologicso let's call it an even 50/50 :)01:27
robertpykedid you know that 90% of pacman characters are Ghosts...01:27
DanielBairdyes it's probably true that gh will have a higher count of non-dev type users.01:27
DanielBairde.g. people there to use the hosting etc, or just to follow projects01:28
robertpykeso, a community of sorts01:28
robertpykeso you're saying they're more community focused..01:28
DanielBairdmore just that popularity will broaden the sphere of users, and the edges of that sphere (mixing 2d and 3d..) will have less committing developers.01:29
robertpykeTo be fair, the only comparison that need be made is that of the 404. Github wins.01:29
DanielBairdon the other hand there are possibly more abandoned accounts on the less popular service, like my account which i had before github but stopped using once i starting using gh.01:30
DanielBairdanyway that's just demographics.. meh01:30
prologicfor me it was the other way around01:31
prologicI had a bitbucket account and used it and still do01:31
prologicand all my pejects are on there01:31
prologicthen github came along, I registered an account01:31
prologicut never used it01:31
prologicI still don't mostly01:31
prologicI think I only use it to report on issues with other projects hosted on github01:31
prologicand I absolutely hate that some web services like and only let you create new accounts via github account authorization01:32
prologicuseless pricks :)01:32
prologicso for some really useful services you _HAVE_ to have a github account01:32
prologicor you don't get access to the service period01:32
DanielBairdhmm yes perhaps the proportions of abandoned accounts are the same in both directions.. i have a vague sense that the smaller userbase will have a larger proportion but I can't quite articulate why I suspect that.01:32
prologicsure is one way to lock in popularity of github01:33
prologicforce people's hand01:33
DanielBairdyeah i agree, i always choose the "new email login" option01:33
prologicsome services don't have such an option01:33
prologicit's either you have a github account01:33
prologicor you don't01:33
robertpykeAnyway, I feel that I've now sufficiently described what I'm starting to do. Once I have some more concrete info on the webapp, I'll get back to you all. For now, its mainly about feeling my around pyramid, and getting a basic API up and running. I shall now disappear into the background (I'll still be here, but less tuned in)01:33
prologice.g: overalls.io01:33
prologicquite a cool little web services01:33
prologicbut yeah01:33
DanielBairdyesterday i saw a land yacht that can sail directly downwind, nearly three times faster than the wind01:33
DanielBairdwhich seems impossible01:34
prologicgood luck :)01:34
DanielBairdbut similarly hard to articulate why or why not.01:34
robertpykecheers :D01:34
DanielBairdi can't get dns error.  does it work for you two?01:35
robertpykenope, doesn't work for me01:37
robertpyke--2013-06-05 11:37:22--
robertpykeResolving ( failed: Name or service not known.01:37
robertpykewget: unable to resolve host address ''01:37
DanielBairdhmm oh well.01:38
prologicmaybe I typed it wrong01:38
prologichang on01:38
DanielBairdat i got a "django site's up!" message.01:38
prologicnot overalls :)01:39
robertpykeI've been using codeclimate for a similar thing. I think it is ruby specific though.01:40
robertpyke<- p.s. that's an example, where you can see the code coverage of a repo.01:40
robertpykeit's less about tests, and more about coding idioms.01:41
robertpykei.e. you gone done it wrong, your function's too long.01:41
robertpykeor you gone done it wrong, you repeated yourself01:41
prologicahh nice01:42
prologicI use a lot of command line tools for that01:42
prologicnamely flake801:42
prologicwhich combines pep8 (style), pyflakes (basic syntax checking) and cyclomatic complexity checking01:43
robertpykethis just works by detecting github pushes, and then some kind of sorcery occurs.01:43
robertpykebut as I said, I think it's ruby only.01:43
prologicruby only01:48
prologicand git only01:48
robertpykeyou know how google supports:01:52
robertpykedefine: something01:52
robertpykesite: www.example.com01:52
robertpyke, etc.01:52
robertpykeWell, they should add:01:53
robertpykeman: some_command01:53
robertpykeand then list a series of man pages for the command...01:53
robertpykeget to it google...01:53
DanielBairddoes "man ls01:53
DanielBaird" work?01:53
DanielBairdi mean, just adding "man" as a search term01:53
prologicalso check this out01:54
prologicpip install howdoi01:54
prologichowdoi <some question here>01:54
prologicit's rather cool :)01:54
DanielBairddid you see the xkcd sort algorithm, that sorts a list by seaching stack overflow questions on sorting, grabs the first code block from the highest ranked answer, and tries it, repeat until the list is sorted?01:56
robertpykeYou showed me, and it was possibly one of the most awesome things ever...02:04
robertpykeeven more exciting than the Mars rover...02:04
robertpykeI just heard a Nokia ad on my spotify stream.. you now should buy a Nokia, because its screen is so sensitive that you can use it with gloves while skiing at Thredbo.02:06
robertpykepoor old Nokia :'(02:06
DanielBairdlol do they still have myspace support?02:08
prologicI don't think I could ever be convinced to use anything other than an iPhone/iPad02:09
prologicthey are the only smartphone and tablets that provided sufficient accessibility for the vision impaired folks like me :)02:09
prologicno Android or Windows device even comes close02:09
DanielBairdyeah I'd guess you need a soup-to-nuts commitment to accessibility to get anything that's remotely workable.02:10
DanielBairdgood ol' apple02:10
prologicno smartphone or tablet provides the kind of full screen zoom that Apple's IOS and OS X provide02:11
prologicthe only workable/viable options are02:11
prologicZoomText (commercial) on Windows02:12
prologicand Compiz Fusion with eZoom on Linux02:12
prologicbbs - lunch02:12
robertpykeI'm pretty sure I'm going to set up some puppet files for my home Ubuntu machine02:17
DanielBairdfirst step in moving to a chromebook, i reckon02:18
robertpyke  # setup postgresql92-server02:18
robertpyke  package { 'postgresql92-server':02:18
robertpyke    ensure => present,02:18
robertpyke  }02:18
robertpyke                                                                                02:18
robertpyke  # setup postgis2_9202:18
robertpyke  package { 'postgis2_92':02:18
robertpyke    ensure  => present,02:18
robertpyke    require => Package['postgresql92-server'],02:18
robertpyke  }02:18
robertpyke                                                                                02:18
robertpyke  # setup the postgresql service02:18
robertpyke  # only do this when postgis is installed02:18
robertpyke  exec { 'service postgresql-9.2 initdb':02:19
robertpyke    subscribe   => Package["postgis2_92"],02:19
robertpyke    refreshonly => true,02:19
robertpyke    path        => '/sbin/',02:19
robertpyke  }02:19
robertpyke                                                                                02:19
robertpyke  # start the postgresql service02:19
robertpyke  # also set it to auto-start02:19
robertpyke  service { 'postgresql-9.2':02:19
robertpyke    enable   => true,02:19
robertpyke    ensure   => 'running',02:19
robertpyke    require  => Exec['service postgresql-9.2 initdb'],02:19
robertpyke  }02:19
robertpykethat gets me postgresql, postgis, sets up the db (on first install only), and the makes sure the postgresql db is running and will autostart02:19
robertpykeif I could develop on the chrome book, I'd consider it. But I think my next laptop will be a light weight laptop with Ubuntu. Similar to my current one in many regards.02:20
DanielBairdyeah there's a few interesting options around.  i suspect a recent-release mbair will be fairly price-competitive with others02:21
DanielBairde.g. the haswell models about to come out :)02:22
robertpykeI saw some reviews for haswell, and all was good. Especially the S series (the low power ones)02:22
DanielBairdyeah if you were intel, you'd be pretty focussed on reducing power consumption i suspect.  that's their achille's heel atm02:23
DanielBairdyay, finally got a donut chart to show up properly.02:24
robertpykeI'm trying to use issues to describe my little blocks of coding, and then I'm closing them as I complete them.02:29
robertpykeFeels good, and I can put the comments associated with said feature in the issue tracking02:30
robertpykefeels extra good :D02:30
DanielBairdyou're at home eright?02:32
DanielBairdand yes i noticed my email filling with issue notifications, thanks for that02:33
robertpykethey should add a thing, so you can ignore issues that have been created with a tagged user who isn't you.02:35
robertpykeby tagged, I mean assigned02:35
DanielBairdyeah good point, if they are created already tagged that would totally be fine02:36
DanielBairdyou can only be notified of stuff tagged for you, can't you?  almost the same thing02:36
robertpykedoesn't look like it02:37
DanielBairdoh well02:40
prologicwhoohoo I finally cleaned up all the code that create and populates my data directory02:51
prologicusing nice OO py.local.path02:51
prologichow's this (so far) Dan?02:54
prologicI just gotta get IBRA regions in there now02:54
prologicand write a tool to generate summaries02:54
robertpykeI'm going to go get some lunch. I'll see you all later.02:57
DanielBairdoops sorry didn't notice.  will check it out02:59
DanielBairdlooks right so far03:00
DanielBairdnice arrangement with the links03:00
DanielBairdbbl lunching03:04
prologicgonna have to put ccav to rest for a while03:22
prologicat least a week03:22
prologicAB wants me to work on the BCCVL stuff :)03:22
DanielLunchideally that'd be after you were serving a faked up summary on some url or other03:45
prologicthat would be now03:52
prologicgod damnit03:52
prologicvccvl has become a higher priority03:52
prologicand I know nothing about plane :)03:52
prologicso everything is going to take me 3-5 times longer03:53
prologicGerhard is away on holidays for 4 weeks03:53
DanielBairdmeh oh well we'll do what we can.03:54
prologicwell that's basically nothing03:55
prologicuntil I can get back to it03:55
DanielBairdi like the idea, can't remember where i saw it, where in some large organisation there's a random compulsory-holiday lottery.  Someone turns up at your desk, taps you on the shoulder, and says "your one week holiday starts now.  get out."03:55
prologicI'll try to do both at the same time03:55
prologicbut that's unlikely03:56
prologicthat sounds cool03:56
DanielBairdthe idea is to compell planners to make sure they have backups organised for everyone's role03:56
prologicthat's a good strategy to ensure that03:57
DanielBairdanyway.. I guess i can make some static json files and try and put some plausible data in them.  just sucks to do work making up fake data03:58
prologicyeah don't stress too much :)03:58
prologicI'll try to get the apis done somehow :)03:58
DanielBairdi'm working on the donut graphs that show what you've selected for now anyway.  then i guess i can do the map layout and whatnot.  maybe you'll find some downtime in the bccvl stuff to check over my make data and see if it matches what you think you'll be serving.03:59
DanielBairdonce i make it, i mean03:59
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