IRC Logs for #crux-devel Wednesday, 2007-03-14

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jaegertilman: rather than putting firstboot into the rc package, why not just install it via setup/setup-helper-ish on the ISO? (this was what I was going to do with it since it wouldn't show up in the package db then)08:28
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treachbtw, a minor question. Are $mandir about to move in 2.3 or not?08:36
treachI recall there was some discussion on the topic but I haven't seen anything since then.08:37
j^2hey guys08:46
jaegertreach: I don't think we ever fully discussed it08:49
jaegermentioned but not fully08:49
jaegerheyo, j^208:49
j^2hey jaeger08:49
treachOk, I see.08:49
tilmanmaybe for 2.4 :)09:18
jaegerupdating nvidia and gl-select in 2.309:19
j^2www.slacker.com09:19
j^2check it out09:19
jaegertreach: if it's a real concern, I don't see why we couldn't at least look into it again09:19
treachwell, it's no big problem, I was just remembered the discussion while I was updating some ports.09:21
jaegerfair enough09:21
treachand then I realized that the dir isn't moved in rc1, so I kind of wondered what the status on that particular issue was.09:22
tilmani think i'll prepare a screencast about how to use git 1.509:27
jaegerthat complicated?09:27
tilmanno09:27
tilmanbut everybody loves screencasts09:28
jaegerheh09:28
tilmanand just explaining an example session in e-mail isn't as exciting09:28
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treachmeh. audacious is at 1.3.1, and it's broken. :-/09:29
tilmanso svn supports atomic commits09:30
treachtilman, btw, did you make any patches for epdfview?09:31
tilmanyay for people who still munge two separate patches into ONE commit09:31
tilmanyeah09:31
treach=)09:31
tilmani'm talking about him09:31
tilmangoddamn annoying09:31
treachah :D09:31
tilmanwell09:31
tilmanat least stupid09:31
tilmantreach: they won't help much anyway09:32
tilmandon't think i can be assed to do any serious development in c++09:32
tilmanplus i should be studying anyway right now.09:32
tilman:p09:32
treachheh09:32
treachWell, I bet you're not any worse than the original author.. :P09:32
tilmani am!09:33
aonhmm.09:49
aonah, my audacious is 1.2.109:50
aonperhaps i'll not update, then09:50
treachaon, well, audacious itself seems to be fine, but the plugins appear to be broken.09:55
aonah09:58
aonyeah, my plugins are at 1.2.209:58
treachyou can't use them with 1.3 though.09:58
treach:/09:58
aonprobably09:58
treachhow nice.09:58
treach"output.c:239: warning: incompatible implicit declaration of built-in function 'lrintf'"09:58
treachdumbasses09:59
aon:-D09:59
treachaon, in case you decide to try upgrading, mcs is now needed but not taglib.10:09
treachmaybe it's just my fault.10:09
treach(error being a SIGSEGV though..)10:11
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tilmanjaeger: the problem about firstboot is that it will also get executed if you update core/rc :x10:37
jaegeranother reason I wasn't going to put it in the package db10:38
tilman*nod*10:39
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treach@seen sip11:48
clbtreach: sip was last seen in #crux-devel 5 days, 19 hours, 43 minutes, and 25 seconds ago: <sip> good11:48
sipI'm here :)11:49
treachheh, ok11:49
treach"make: *** No rule to make target `wmclock.man', needed by `wmclock._man'"11:50
treachon 2.3. :)11:50
sipis it fatal now?11:50
treachapparently11:50
siphmm, cannot reproduce11:57
treachdang. :/11:58
sipxorg-imake is missing as a dep?11:59
treachno, I found it.12:00
treachI was missing "xorg-gccmakedep"12:00
sipthanks for reporting, going to fix the deps12:00
tilmantreach: quick, write a sane makefile12:00
treachno problem.12:00
treachhaha12:00
tilmanseriously12:01
treachtilman, no thanks, that's way out of my leauge12:01
treachI can't even get stuff properly from the keyboard, remember? :P12:01
tilmanmake is easier than that12:01
siptilman, regarding the font stuff, didn't we choose the setup-helper way?12:05
sip(with chroot)12:05
tilmani thought a week ago (or so) we decided to go with the firstboot script?12:06
sipI think at the end we opted for doing it in setup-helper, lemme check the logs12:06
* jaeger doesn't remember12:08
sipheh jaeger I think it was your proposal12:08
jaegerit might have been12:09
sipno it was tilman's: http://clc.morpheus.net/irc/?channel=crux-devel&date=08Mar2007#14:51:0112:10
tilmanokay12:11
tilmantilman suggested it: -112:11
siphaha12:11
tilmanthe other thing is already done: -212:11
tilmani'd say firstboot wins ;)12:11
jaeger:P12:11
tilmansip: or do you hate that a lot? :)12:11
sipI was replying to the ML saying firstboot is a bad idea ;)12:11
tilmanwhy exactly?12:12
treachstuff it in "/usr/share/registry/runonce" ;)12:13
sipI mean, for the future, having a /etc/rc.crux or something would save our arse in many circumstances instead of custom solutions each time there's some needing12:13
sipsorta like rc.local, but crux-specific12:13
tilmanhrm?12:15
tilmanso you'd need another file to track first-boot-status?12:16
sipno, the functions inside the script will check if they need to run12:16
sipie check if there are fonts.dir files, if not run12:17
tilmanokay12:18
tilmansame can be done with /var/cache/fontconfig12:18
sipin rc.multi, I'd call the file before starting services12:22
sipnow what's a good name for said script? rc.<goodname>12:25
tilmanrc.solvesitall12:26
tilman:)12:26
siphaha12:27
siprc.check | rc.crux | rc.stuff12:29
siprc.fix12:32
jaegerrc.nameitandwinafreecruxiso12:41
jaegerhow about rc.fix or rc.fixups?12:42
treach"rc.runonce" :P12:43
sipusing rc.fix, if somebody has a better name, feel free to overwrite my commit ;)12:54
jaegerworks for me12:55
sipwe could avoid some check to speed the script up since it's run at every boot12:57
sipie do not test if fontconfig is installed, just if its cache dir exists12:57
jaegerand if the cache dir exists but the package is not installed?12:57
sip(and is empty)12:57
sip&> /dev/null12:58
siphttp://paste.lisp.org/display/3816913:00
siptilman, any idea about a good test case for fonts dir?13:02
jaegeris ls guaranteed to be unaliases at that point?13:03
sipwill use /bin/ls13:03
jaegerok13:09
siphttp://paste.lisp.org/display/38172 does this look ok?13:11
tilmantest for existance will suffice for the post-installation thing13:16
sipjaeger, any news on the iputils man pages?13:24
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jaegernot yet, but the current core port is fine, no?14:24
jaegernot holding back 2.3, I mean14:29
sipsure14:31
sipsince we already got a complain I figured it would be nice to have the latest version ;)14:32
jaegerI'll try and get that sorted out this afternoon14:32
sipwriting the release notes now. just noticed the 2.3 hb still uses ifconfig & route14:33
jaegerI'm waiting for an oracle database clone to finish, anyway14:33
jaegertill asked about that on the ML and we talked about it here yesterday...14:33
siphah, good old oracledb14:33
jaegerthe consensus was to recommend and document the iproute2 way and leave the older stuff for reference14:33
sipwhat you mean by leave the older stuff?14:35
jaegerthe ifconfig/route documentation in the handbook14:35
sipisn't it better to ditch it to avoid confusion?14:36
jaegerperhaps14:37
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jaegerif you think it's better that way, ask till, I think he's updating that section14:39
sipah, ok.14:39
sipjust noticed "tbd: remove the old ifconfig stuff below??" :)14:39
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jaegerlovely, the man pages don't build easily14:56
sipgah, let's stick with the previous release then14:58
jaegerthat's probably best for the 2.3 release, I'll get it figured out15:00
sipI bet the changelog of the latest ones says something like "Improved build procedure for docs" ;)15:00
sipfinal word on ifconfig references? tilman?15:01
tilmani'm fine with what we have atm ;D15:01
tilmantook me a minute to set it up though, cause i'm lame and not that familiar with the / notation :)15:02
sipheh15:03
siphttp://crux.nu/Main/ReleaseNotes2-3 <- please review / add stuff if necessary15:08
aonnot related, but how about changing 'I' to 'we' (or something) in http://crux.nu/Main/Handbook2-3#ntoc415:12
treachsomeone should rewrite that entire section.15:14
aonindeed..15:15
sipas long as someone != sip, I agree15:16
treachI could do it. But I'm not part of the team. :)15:16
sipwe'll be more than happy to integrate your contribution :)15:17
aon+1 :)15:17
treachok, let's see what I can do.15:17
sipgreat15:17
treach.. "udev, inotify, reiserfs, ext3fs, xfs" still considered new features?15:26
treachor anyone with better examples?15:26
sipperhaps, if one comes from debian15:26
treach:D15:26
tilmandon't think we have any exciting features15:27
treachI think I'll scratch that part then.15:27
tilmanother than "new gcc/glibc/x"15:27
treachoh shut up. ports, dammit. ;)15:27
sipWe could also leave that part as a quote from the creator15:27
tilmanoh15:27
tilman"new features" in general15:27
tilmani was thinking of 2.3 specifics15:28
treachok15:28
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treachok, I put up some quickly scrawled thing here -> http://hem.bredband.net/treach/Why.txt15:45
treachfeel free to use/discard/edit or do wtf you feel like with it.15:46
treachgtg, icecream melting.. :P15:46
tilman"Your choice" -> "The choice" maybe15:53
tilmanerr15:53
tilmanjust "Choice"?15:53
tilman"by using -march" -> "by compiling with -march"?15:54
tilman"come available" -> "become available"?15:54
tilmanthe first of the three bullets has an "^are", the last two have not. looks funny ;)15:55
treachhey, I had to run. Crappy text or floating icecream. Easy choice. :)15:59
treachanyone else who agrees/disagrees with tilman or has something else to add?16:01
tilmanwe should have a native speaker read over it16:01
tilmanlike, j^216:01
treachheh16:01
treachjaeger?16:01
tilman* Someone who does not hesitate to download and compile programs16:04
tilmanyourself.16:04
tilmanthat's just broken, too16:04
tilman"someone...yourself"16:04
tilmanat least it sounds wrong to me16:04
tilmanbut i learned english in IRC, so! ;)16:04
treachagreed16:06
treachhmm. I feel like I'm straying from the original. :-/16:22
treachtilman, ping16:31
tilmanyes16:32
treachwhat do you think? (still somethings a native will have to look at but..)16:32
tilmanmaybe in the first sentence "this distribution" -> "CRUX"16:33
tilmanhehe16:33
treachwell, I blame Per for that one. :D16:33
tilman"thus follows" sounds like bible english :P16:33
treachlol16:34
treachI always get told I speak like a book. :D16:34
tilmans/useage/usage/16:34
aon:D16:34
tilmansounds good to me otherwise16:35
tilmangood job:)16:35
treachthanks. let's just not hope jaeger ripps me up totally wrt grammar etc. :)16:35
tilmandon't think so16:35
aonshouldn't it be {him,her}self16:36
treachanyway, it wasn't meant as the final product.16:36
aon:)16:36
tilmanif you want to be sure to get positive feedback, you could have the dyslexic convict look at it ;))16:36
treachaon, since you're officially "on the team" you're welcome to improve things as much as you're able to. :)16:36
treachheh16:37
aonheh16:37
treachtilman, I'd much rather get feedback telling me where I went wrong than undeserved praises.16:37
tilman:>16:38
treachaon, btw {him/her}self is just a stop-gap because I'm totaly confused wrt what I should write there. "yourself" feels most natural but I guess that's incorrect. :)16:40
jaegerback now. what am I looking at, that Why.txt link?16:41
treachyea16:41
jaegerok16:41
jaegerI think CRUX looks better than "this distribution" as well16:42
jaegers/Thus follows/Here are/16:42
treachok16:42
jaegers/useage/usage/16:42
treachalready fixed.16:43
jaegers/helps keeping/helps keep/16:43
jaegers/features includes/features include/16:43
jaegers/avoiding to clutter/avoiding cluttering/16:43
tilmanavoiding cluttering but helps keep?16:44
jaegerthe rest looks good, just those changes to sound more natural16:44
treachok, I'm with you.16:44
jaegersomething like this is a perfect example of why I hate the english language16:44
treachany suggestions about the last sentence?16:44
tilman"qed ffs!"?16:45
tilmanoh16:45
treach"{him/her}self" sucks16:45
aonhow about just dropping it?16:45
aon{him/her}self16:45
jaegerperhaps remove that subject entirely or just say "compile programs from the source" or something16:45
treachgood idea.16:46
jaegerhim/herself would be perfectly understandable, just looks weird16:46
jaegertilman: jue and I had a long discussion in 2004 in stockholm about the english language which consisted mostly of me complaining about it for a couple hours16:46
tilman:)16:47
jaegerI'd be happy if the US started speaking german instead16:47
tilmanlol16:47
treachugh.16:47
aon:D16:47
tilmanyou're fluent in german?16:47
jaegernot fluent but I can speak and read it to some extent16:48
treachwell, if you got the same amount of practice with german as you do with english, it probably wouldn't be so bad.16:48
jaegerI studied it for 6 years in school, the problem is that no one around here speaks it anymore16:48
aonheh16:48
jaegergerman is only one example, I'd be happy with any language that doesn't have more exceptions than rules16:48
aoni guess you wouldn't need to be very fluent for the first few years after the switch16:49
aon:)16:49
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tilmanyeah :D16:49
jaegerit never ceases to amaze me how complicated english was allowed to become16:50
treachjaeger, unfortunately the germans are in the middle of the process of totally screwing up their language atm.16:50
jaegerI feel sorry for anyone learning it at a second or third language16:50
jaegertreach: that's a shame, but we could give them plenty of tips16:50
jaegers/at/as/16:50
treachI guess it's because english really isn't "A" languge..16:50
treachit has influences from all over the map.16:51
aoni've learnt worse languages16:51
aon;)16:51
treachyeah, like finnish :)16:51
aonfinnish doesn't have much exceptions, though16:51
aoni think16:51
aondunno16:51
aonat least they're not widely discussed16:51
treachbtw I just updated the link again, w/ corrections16:52
tilmantreach: screwing it up? what do you mean? the merging of english words?16:52
aoni'll have to write a swedish essay next week16:53
aonwhich is quite frightening16:53
jaegertreach: would you like me to nitpick about punctuation or leave it? :)16:53
treachtilman, No I'm refering to your "grammar" reform.16:53
treachjaeger, feel free.16:53
tilmantreach: we only had a orthography reform afaik16:53
jaegermost english speakers probably wouldn't twitch but my mother was an english teacher16:54
jaegers/taste really/taste, really/16:54
jaegers/is essential,/is essential;/16:54
treachtilman, and the major newspapers gave up on it in the middle of it.16:54
jaegers/up-to-date,/up-to-date;/16:54
jaegerok, I'm done16:55
treachgood. :)16:56
jaegerthe semicolon is another thing english really can't make up its mind on16:56
jaegerand oracle still hates me, on an unrelated note16:57
treachI just wish it could get it's 's's sorted. :/16:57
jaegerI have a very good visual aid for that16:57
jaegerhttp://www.angryflower.com/aposter3.jpg16:57
jaegerhttp://www.angryflower.com/bobsqu.gif <-- this one's more readable16:58
treachcool. :)16:58
jaegerfunny (at least to me) and 100% correct :)16:58
treachthanks, I'll keep that around, I always get confused about that.16:59
jaegerunderstandable. I'm surprised we haven't added official rules to make it harder16:59
treachespecially when it comes to stuff like "james's shoes" and stuff.17:00
jaegerpossessive words that end in s totally throw people off, mostly americans17:00
treachI'm not american! :D17:00
jaegeras I understand it, schools actually teach that "james's" and "james'" are both correct in that case17:01
jaegerwhich makes my ass twitch17:01
jaegerit used to be only "james'" but I guess that was too difficult17:01
treachah.17:01
treachmy gut feeling was right.17:01
jaegertreach: sorry, didn't mean to imply you were, just that if most of US can't use it properly, we can't expect non-americans to :P17:01
treachyeah, I got that, just kidding. :)17:02
jaegerok :)17:02
jaegerpl. O'17:05
jaegerjasd17:05
* jaeger kills oracle17:05
treach?17:05
jaegersorry, I was mangling my fingers on the keyboard17:05
jaegerit didn't help17:05
jaegerI'm going to leave work now while I'm still holding onto the thinnest thread of sanity :P talk to you guys later17:06
treachrarely does. A sandbag is probably better. :)17:06
jaegergood call17:06
treachcya17:06
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treachok, if anyone feels like putting that little text into the handbook, I guess they can go ahead.17:07
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