IRC Logs for #crux-devel Monday, 2009-05-04

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tilmanCrap with a capital C10:33
tilmanif i use the smooth font via xft, arrows aren't darwn correctly (the ones used for threading mutt)10:34
aonyeah :|10:34
tilmanit should be fixable somehow10:34
aonwhy does printing on linux have to suck this much10:35
aoni'd be content with just a lpr(1), don't need a webui with a computer with a face on it10:35
aonand lprng's source tarball is 13M10:35
aonand gnulpr depends on glib10:35
tilmanum.10:35
aonversion 110:36
tilmanyou don't need lprng afaik10:36
tilmani just installed cups, configured it _once_ and then used lpr or lp happily ever after10:36
aonyes10:36
aonbut you need to have cups10:36
tilmanand sometimes acroread because i forget how to tell lpr to use A4 format :P10:36
aonand the daemon running in the bagckround10:36
teKCUPS is owned by apple *hint *hint*10:36
tilmannot a biggie10:36
tilmanimo :P10:36
tilmanaon: so lprng works without cups?10:36
aonofc10:36
aonbut it's makefile is somehow hairy10:37
aonand the source has some book sources or something :)10:37
tilmanok10:37
aonafaict the way it should work is lpr -> remote lpd -> printer10:38
aonnow it's lpr -> cups -> remote lpd -> printer10:38
aonguess i need to port some sane lpr :)10:38
tilmanmmh, right10:38
tilmani scp my pdfs over to the machine that has cups running :D10:39
tilman(which is connected to the printer)10:39
tilmani only use it twice a year so.10:39
aoni even have a nfs mount from the machine running lpd10:39
aonbut i'm not going to do that10:39
aon:)10:39
teKAt work it's: ERP (Linux) -> CUPS (Linux) -> Printerdaemon (Windows) -> Printer :>10:39
tilmanwin10:40
teKfor invoices its:10:40
teKAt work it's: ERP (Linux) -> CUPS (Linux) -> Layoutsoftware (Windows) -> Networkprinter10:40
teKprinting == hate10:40
aonyeah well, my mum's place has a windows machine as a print server10:40
aonbut winxp has lpd too, so no need for cups really :)10:41
aonERP is probably a piece of a cake to print from10:42
aoncompared to BPCS :D10:42
teKreagarding the reports there's a reason why software like crystal reports exists10:42
aoncrystal seems pretty ok10:43
aonnot that i've ever had any formal training or used it much10:43
aonbut had to dig up some stuff to do the same things in php :)10:43
teKour ERP 'provides' a command-line-like INterface for ''designing'' reports10:44
aonhttp://www.cashbook.com/images/screen_bpcs_large.gif10:46
aonas you can see, bpcs is truly superior to anything10:46
aonand worth the tens of thousands it and the system i hardware costs10:47
aonit seems that not many know how it does stuff10:47
aonso it's nice when you have to debug a printing problem in UK10:48
teK;)10:50
aonso you hire a consultant10:50
teKour ERP provides a client for command line (curses), X and Windows, and a 'webtop'10:51
aonwho iirc didn't solve it but learned how to use Alt+PrintScr in windows10:51
teK:D10:51
tilmanspeaking of screenshots10:53
tilmanwhen we asked one of our customers to give us a screen shot of some application, he put his laptop on a xerox :D10:54
tilmani think he then faxed the copy over :D10:54
teKoh well10:55
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juehello10:56
tilmanhi jue10:56
tilmanteK: come on, tell me this is the most messed up thing you've heard in a long while10:56
Rotwanghaha ;]10:57
Rotwangdid it work, btw?10:58
tilmani think so10:58
teKa co-worker of mine put the batteries into the wireless mouse the wrong way10:59
teK'i checked them'10:59
teKyeah, of course.10:59
tilmanmy story is infinitely more funny10:59
teKAnd I'd not go skydiving with you10:59
teKthis is not fun.11:00
tilmanhuh?11:00
teKchecking your mates' parachutes..11:00
tilman;)11:01
jueaon: http://truffula.com/rlpr/11:03
aonjue: thanks11:04
aonnice description :)11:04
aon...functionality is a superset... ...more lightweight, cleaner and more secure... ...critical security flaw... ...not yet a full replacement...11:05
aoni'll have a look tho :)11:05
juetested it many years ago together with lprng, but dunno remember how well rlpr worked though11:11
aonalso no ipv6 support :)11:11
juewell, don't expect too much. Nowaday everyone is using cups11:12
jue;-)11:12
aonyes, apparently11:12
prologicon that subject ...11:13
prologicI really would love to see more support for simpler tools11:13
tilmanaon: adding ipv6 support should be easy, no?11:13
prologicsuch as lpr/lprng11:13
prologicit's a pity they go on the way side in favor of more compelx (often graphical) tools11:13
jueuntil CRUX 1.2 or so I maintained cups and lprng, but was too much work for me in the end11:13
aontilman: yeah11:13
jueprologic: what's bad with cups?11:14
prologicnothing11:14
prologicI just wouldn't use it if I could get away with it11:14
prologicsame reason I don't use/run gnome or kde11:14
aonbut i'd feel rather dirty patching something that's 10 years old and mentions "GPL'd" that often on the homepage :)11:14
juehmm, I'd say that's totally different things11:15
prologicaon, do it!11:15
aoncups is ok if there's a cups server11:15
prologicI'd rather use lpr/lprng myself :)11:15
aonthen you just need to put one line in client.conf and that's it11:15
prologicI don't have a printer though!11:15
aonbut apparently in other cases that doesn't work :|11:16
jueprologic: the cups daemon is quite small, around 2000k here11:17
prologicsize isn't really the point :)11:17
jueand you don't have to use the web interface11:17
prologicbut it does count11:17
prologicstop trying to convince me :)11:18
prologicI don't have a printer ;P11:18
prologicin fact I don't even have pens at home :)11:18
jueok :-)11:18
prologicwhat use has pens and paper for a blind guy ? :)11:18
prologiclet alnoe a printer11:18
prologicalone*11:18
tilmanyou can throw them at pets11:18
aonyou can use print spoolers to do other stuff :)11:19
prologiclol11:19
tilmanor poke burglars in the eye11:19
tilman(mmh well, maybe not)11:19
aonhttp://pipan.org/mirror/lpd-mp3/11:19
prologicI'd rather throw a plate at them!11:19
prologicwtf11:19
prologiclpd + mp3 ?11:20
aonyeah11:20
aoni think i've heard that the openbsd devs have something like that too at hackathons11:20
prologicwhat the ?11:20
prologicwhat's it do ?11:20
aonyou send it an mp3 file with lpr11:20
aonand it plays it11:20
prologicplays it on the normal PC speakders ?11:21
aonyes11:21
tilmanor you could just use xmms211:21
prologichow boring11:21
prologicyeah I was gonna say11:21
prologicor mpd11:21
aonbut then you'd need a client which nobody has11:21
aon:D11:21
tilmanlies11:21
aonand aren't those so that files have to be on the daemon machine?11:22
prologicall lies :)11:22
prologicmpd + mpc11:22
prologiclies :)11:22
prologicall lies :)11:22
aonat least the last time i checked that was the case11:22
juetilman: wrt bash, I'd say we switch to 4.x soon, ok for you?11:22
prologicthe files can by on an NFS or SSH-FS11:22
aonthat works the other way around11:22
tilmanjue: yes :)11:22
aonprologic: but that's not the point11:22
tilmanaon: oh, lpr sends the local mp3 file to the printing machine?11:22
aonyes11:22
prologicicecast ftw :)11:23
tilmanoh well11:23
tilmanxmms2 still rules11:23
prologichrmm yeah see that's what I was confused about11:23
prologicif it sends the mp3 file to the print machine11:23
prologicdoes the print machine play it then ?11:23
aonyep11:23
prologicahh11:23
prologicicecast ftw :)11:23
prologicthough what you're doing there is kinda a push mechanism I spose11:24
prologicright ?11:24
aonyes11:24
prologicmpd still rules :)11:24
tilmanthe worst thing about mpd fanboys is that they cannot just shut up11:24
aoni still haven't had a single case where i would've needed the server to play the audio11:25
prologicbite me :)11:25
aonand doing that stuff on a single machine just adds latency and bloat11:25
aon(a bit like using cups :))11:25
prologictbh, if I had the money I'd built a mythtv box11:25
prologicI just don't like having a gui for playingg music :)11:26
aonalthough i'm almost on the verge of doing something like that11:26
prologicthe buttons on my keyboard are enough11:26
aon(ie. a dedicated machine hooked to hifi and playing files over nfs)11:26
prologicand even when I get around to building a new media box with mythtv11:26
prologicit'll have mpd with remote singnals programmed to mpc commands11:26
prologicjust as my keyboard does atm11:26
tilmanaon: yeah, there's the same latency that you get from using x over unix domain sockets :>11:26
aonmpd seemed rather sluggish when i tried it11:27
prologicit isn't actually11:27
tilmanthat's becaues mpd sucks11:27
aoni don't think i've used xmms211:27
aonand won't :)11:27
prologicand there is no noticable latency11:27
tilmanaon: mpd uses some cracktastic ascii protocol11:27
prologictilman, you mean the control protocol ?11:27
tilmanyes11:28
prologicso what ? :)11:28
tilmanand i think they only support polling11:28
tilmanie the server cannot notify the clients of whatever11:28
tilman:D11:28
prologicthat's true11:28
prologicbut never had an issue with that11:28
prologicactually that may not be true anymore since some version11:29
prologicsince gmpc updates in real time11:29
tilmanit probably just polls very often :D11:29
prologicit doesn't11:29
tilman:>11:29
prologicmight dbl-check that though :)11:30
prologicthought... why don't se just ship with ash on the cd (vs. bash) ?11:31
tilmaniirc you volunteered to fix our various rc scripts to work with dash two years ago11:34
tilmanand then you vanished11:34
tilmanso that's why11:34
prologicahh11:34
prologicI do remember that :)11:34
prologicI should get off my fat lazy ass and do that then :P11:34
prologicok it's not fat :)11:34
prologicbut hmm11:34
aonmeh11:35
prologicanyone had any experience with otehr vms (otehr than vmware) ?11:35
aonif we switch away from bash we need to remove bashisms from every pkgfile too, right?11:36
aonand pkgmk11:37
tilmani didn't say we'd switch completely11:37
prologicnot necessarily11:37
tilmanbut using dash for stuff like /etc/rc* might have some appeal11:37
prologicI have day off tomorrow11:37
tilmanteK: so, what about my $CFLAGS issue?11:37
aondoes "ash on the cd" mean ash as the shell on the cd?11:37
prologicmight get a vm with crux 2.5 and work on that11:37
tilmanaon: no11:38
aonwhat, then?11:38
prologicaon, no, not necessarily11:38
tilmandash would be /bin/sh i guess11:38
prologicthough it could be the default :)11:38
aonif we don't have bash on the cd we probably need to do what i said11:38
tilmanand bash would be /bin/bash11:38
prologicaon, tbh, I think the current Pkgfile's would be compat* with *sh anyway11:38
prologicI don't think any of them have anything special11:39
aonarrays11:39
prologicsomething worth testing though11:39
prologicahh yeah good point11:39
prologicdash doesn't support arrays iirc11:39
aonnope11:39
aonand ${foo/bar/baz} etc. possibly11:39
prologicpossibly11:40
juewell, pkgmk is a bash script, and, TBH, I don't see any real reason to change that11:40
prologicme neither11:40
prologicbut the rc scripts with dash could be ok11:40
prologicsmaller/faster bootup scripts if nothing else11:41
jueyep, that's og for me11:41
jue*ok11:41
aonwell not smaller since you generally need to add lines to rid of bashisms :)11:41
prologicI'll work on it in the morn'n11:41
prologicahh11:41
aonand is shell overhead really that big of an issue in the bootup?11:41
prologicnot really aon11:42
aon(haven't done benchmarks tho)11:42
prologicnot the last time I did it11:42
prologic:)11:42
prologictbh, I think we could benefit from using a better INIT :)11:42
prologicwe still use (by default) the old imperative one11:42
prologicthere are 2 others that I know of that could be better alternatives11:42
aonwell yeah, the array stuff becomes shorter usually, i thikn11:43
aon*nk11:43
prologicnight all11:46
juetilman: do you remember a reason why we didn't do the update of zip to 3.0?11:48
tilmanjue: no11:48
jueseems we simply forgot about it ;-)11:49
tilmanheh11:49
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jueaon: got rlpr running here (together with cups as the printer server)12:28
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teKtilman: well :\ don't know right now. Will look into it after 20:0012:31
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tilmanaon: omg, the "glyphs" needed in alsamixer are missing, too :(12:45
aon:|12:46
aonfwiw, xft terminus seems ok :)12:46
aondon't have mutt tho12:46
aonjue: yeah, rlpr seems to work fine with openbsd lpd too13:15
aon$ du -sh {cups#1.3.10,rlpr}*13:17
aon2.4Mcups#1.3.10-1.pkg.tar.gz13:17
aon40Krlpr#2.06-1.pkg.tar.gz13:17
aon:)13:17
teKthe problem occurs here, too.13:29
teK@tilman13:29
teKtilman13:45
tilmanyes13:59
tilmanthanks for confirming13:59
tilmannow how to fix it?13:59
teKgcc ${=CFLAGS} foo.c14:00
teKit's the (missing) wordsplitting14:00
tilmanthe missing what?14:00
tilmanthat sucks anyway14:00
teKthe content of CFLAGS is interpreted as one word14:00
tilmanhard to type :(14:00
tilmansure, why not14:01
teK[tek@basra][~/src/own]% export CFLAGS="-O2 -march=prescott -pipe -Wall -Wwrite-strings -Wnonnull"                                                                                                    :(14:01
teK[tek@basra][~/src/own]% setopt shwordsplit14:02
teK[tek@basra][~/src/own]% gcc $CFLAGS inet.c14:02
teKinet.c: In function 'main':14:02
teKinet.c:26: warning: passing argument 2 of 'fatal' discards qualifiers from pointer target type14:02
teKinet.c:33: warning: passing argument 2 of 'fatal' discards qualifiers from pointer target type14:02
teKinet.c:35: warning: passing argument 2 of 'fatal' discards qualifiers from pointer target type14:02
teKcredits go to #grml (tbh)14:02
tilmanthank you, #grml14:02
tilmanteK: should i upt shwordsplit in my zshrc? or is it evil in some aspects?14:03
teKdon't think, that it does harm :14:06
teK:)14:06
tilmancool14:07
tilmanthanks14:07
teKyou're welcome14:07
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