IRC Logs for #crux-devel Tuesday, 2012-06-19

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teK_jaeger: +1 (wrt alsa*)07:47
juefinally comments from Sievers/Poettering to the build-udev-from-systemd patches07:47
jueas to be expected they got rejected07:48
jueon additional remark from Kay is nice:07:48
jueLonger-term plan is to move the D-Bus daemon functionality to the07:48
juekernel, and let systemd talk directly to the kernel07:48
juethat means that every software that depends on dbus will depend on systemd than07:49
jueoc, the third line is my comment07:50
jueFWIW, here's the link to the thread ->
juethe thread is a bit lengthy, but reading Sievers/Poetterings comments should be sufficient to see the result07:52
Romsteroh gawd someone kill me please so i don't have the horror of systemd udev and dbus08:11
Romsterseriously someone needs to talk to linus about this crap.08:11
juewell, let's see what ubuntu will do, if they forgot about their upstart and switch to systemd instead, we are lost ;)08:12
Romsteri'm waiting for gentoo to get mdev more mature with init scripts to then pinch there hard work.08:13
jaegerI'm honestly surprised that nobody has forked udev yet08:13
Romsteri'm sooo waiting for that jaeger08:13
jaegerjue: I sent a mail to the ML about xorg but my mail system backed up and I'm trying to get it to spit out the queue this morning08:15
jueI see all of that kinda relaxed, because I'm pretty sure that we can build a sane system with mdev08:15
jaegerI have no doubt that I can use mdev for all my needs, it just blows my mind that such huge railroad changes seem to be ok08:16
juejaeger: you mean a second mail?08:16
Romsterif you ask me there forcing this crap on us., so every other init daemon other than systemd will die?08:16
jaegerNo, just the one... I just meant to say that if anyone responded I've not seen it yet08:17
jueah, ok08:17 had 2042 mails backed up this morning, slowly delivering08:17
juethere are two replies until now08:17
Romsteri've seen your email jaeger but not replied no one replied to my email either.08:18
jaegerI didn't mention your mail in my mail just to keep things from circling but I did look at your repo, would save some work08:20
Romstermkay at least some have looked at it.08:20
Romsterhonestly i could clena up my xorg fork a bit more and check with prtverify but i've been lazy. and busy with work.08:22
sepenrejected! wtf08:24
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juesepen: maybe the right time to start some more work with mdev08:33
jueI'm thinking at a wiki page with some instructions how to switch, of course with a link to yout port08:33
sepenyeah, and the ML thread you started too08:34
juemay I ask you to start the page?08:34
sepenI've found some problems with mplayer but I should discard that were related to mdev08:35
sepenjue: yep, I think I'll have sometime tonight08:35
juegreat, thanks :)08:35
sepenanyways I doubt about some complex apps which depends on -ludev08:36
jaegerjue: since my email is still hosed I'll say here that I don't really care what the xorg team ends up being, as long as everyone who pushes to it is on the same page. Just want to make sure it stays high-quality as it's rather important08:37
jaegerhad to go to the ML archives to read the responses :P08:37
sepenLonger-term plan is to move the D-Bus daemon functionality to the08:38
sepenoops, wrong channel08:38
juejaeger: yeah, xorg is indeed very important even though I'm not very interested to follow the development of it close08:40
juejaeger: so I'm not able to be a big help in maintaining it08:40
juethe only thing I've done in that region was the nouveau driver08:41
jaegerI guess the big question becomes, "Who is willing to be on that team?"08:42
juewhich oc is affected by mesa and libdrm of course08:42
juebut if we restrict it to the core maintainers, we both are alone with xorg, at least ATM ;)08:44
sepenI proposed that to 'system team' core + opt maintainers08:46
sepenin the past x11 belongs to opt, so it would be fine to have opt maintainers for xorg (IMHO) but cordinated from the core maintainers08:47
frinnstre: xorg. I think we need to have clarity in who does what and a strict "no regression" policy between crux-releases08:50
Romsteri've got some experience with xorg guys.08:51
frinnsta "xorg-team" is a start08:51
Romsterand i'm pretty reliable so count me in on the team.08:51
jueif we go such a way, we should call it 'Xorg Team', because 'System Team' is already reserved for core ports08:51
jaegerI feel like the name is less important than the idea :)08:52
sepenI am not fond of letting all the weight to one person08:52
frinnstmaintaining xorg i guess is sort of like maintaining a DE like kde/gnome/whatever08:53
juejaeger: right, but it's important to speak about the same thing, and sepen proposed 'System Team' above08:53
sepenI talked many times about to have contributors in xfce too08:53
sepenbut one person should cortinate the entire repo imho08:53
frinnstlots of stuff needing to work together. And iirc all previous DE ports have been done by one or perhaps a few ppl08:53
frinnstjaeger did gnome etc08:54
sepenwell, a DE is optional to crux, but imho we should take Xorg as a must to have08:54
Romsteryeah but gnome now is gone... if there was a few interested in that int he gnome team then we may still have gnome now.08:55
frinnstperhaps one or two taking care of input/gfx drivers, one or two handling libraries etc08:55
Romsteri know we can't test all the input/video drivers except those that we have hardware for. it be nice if we had 2-3 maintainers of each hardware device they owned.08:56
frinnstyeah but drivers are probably pretty low maintenence and issues that would occur will probably be related to abi changes etc08:57
Romsterprobably wont happen though. and we'll end up with a few whole xorg maintainer and the bug tracker/irc where they can report any issues of there hardware.08:57
Romstermost of the time.08:57
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Romsterhow many do we have that we trust to maintain xorg?09:00
teK_you and jaeger :>09:00
Romsteroh surely there is more than us two.09:00
teK_I don't dare touching that pile of .. mess :o09:01
Romsterjaeger's given up on gnome so you haven't got a big workload anymore?09:01
sepenI prefer that xorg was maintained by a girl, whenever be possible :P09:01
frinnstI wouldn't mind maintaining a couple of drivers09:01
jaegerNot as big, certainly. I'm honestly not sure what duties I really have since I came back. I haven't done a lot yet since "un-retiring"09:01
Romsterit's not as messy as it used to be.09:01
teK_on a related note.. does anybody of you have an idea why my (acer) touchpad won't get recognized (neither xorg nor /dev/input/mice-wise) even though PS2/Mouse is selected in my kernel config?09:01
teK_sepen: yeah, more female maintainers \o/09:02
teK_I'd give up some of my shiny ports to attract some09:02
Romsterjaeger, well you are doing the iso stuff even when you were retired...09:02
sepenteK_: yeah, and next will be cruxcon 201209:03
jaegeryeah, though the ISO is what I'd call "burst" work09:03
sepenjaeger: you said something about ck4up for the whole xorg?09:04
jaegerit mostly stays untouched until a release is made or I have to add something to the kernel for the updated ISO, etc.09:04
jaegersepen: honestly I think automatic notifications from ck4up for core, opt, and xorg would be nice09:04
sepenjaeger: I've that (or something similar running every day)09:04
teK_sepen: my girlfriend won't allow :P09:04
teK_but I could tell her that I'll meet just some [(make)] geeks09:05
jaegeryeah, any of us can set it up individually, I was just thinking it could run as a nightly job on the server or something09:05
jaegerdoesn't matter much, I can set it up myself09:05
Romster kind of got a cheap nasty version checker i've been using to keep xorg fork updated.09:05
sepenjaeger: this cronjob is running every day in crux-arm.nu09:05
sepenand every day emails to me if diffs are found09:06
juewe have a ck4up setup for core at crux.nu09:06
jaegerteK_: no idea on the touchpad, sorry09:07
Romsterwell oen for xorg wouldn't be much effort isn't that how tilman keep it up to date in the past?09:07
RomsterteK_, synaptics touch pad?09:07
frinnstteK_: hid support in kernel?09:07
sepenthe fact is to share ck4up stuff between us, that would be neat09:08
teK_synaptics, HID: I have to check09:08
frinnstck4up reports to a ml perhaps?09:08
frinnstor do we do that already?09:08
teK_according to the gentoo wiki I only need PS2/Mouse support09:09
teK_it says nothing about the two touchpad options09:09
jueif xorg will be a team effort, we have to setup something like the one for core09:09
teK_(Apple and USB, iirc)09:09
Romsterand evdev09:09
juefrinnst: not a mailing list but send to all maintainers in the core group09:09
sepen /etc/postfix/aliases for that?09:10
teK_Romster: evedev is installed (xorg) and enabled (kernel)09:10
jueoops, no idea how this is works in practice09:10
Romstercome to think about it when was the last official discussion? and I noticed jue  has pretty much taken over per as no one else will/has.09:10
teK_BUT /dev/input/mice doesn't work either so evdev should be my last concern09:10
* jue looks at teK_ 09:10
sepenjue: aliases is the easiest way imho09:11
teK_yes it is09:11
Romsteregrep -i 'synap|alps|etps' /proc/bus/input/devices09:11
teK_I think we need no archive of these discussions so aliases should suffice09:12
teK_Romster: I'll check and report tonight, thanks09:13
RomsterteK_, k09:13
sepenpff still building chromium here09:13
sepenI hate it09:13
Romsteryeah it's a long compile use ccache it really speeds it up.09:14
teK_but yeah I hate it (because of the red border), too09:14
frinnstsepen: simple flag for building it without udev?09:14
Romstereven form last version to newer version it'll have some stuff still cached.09:14
sepenfrinnst: chromium?09:15
Romsterhmm why do thermostats on these heaters have such a huge gap between on and off... i'm seriously feel like hacking up a electronic temp sensor to turn it on and off for me.09:15
sepenfrinnst: maybe later, first I should try to find an update for opt, later I'll research about to mdev09:16
frinnsti attempted to install it to check for teks "red" problem but it bailed and I was lazy09:16
rmullRomster: re: themostats - relays have a lifetime rating for toggling, and they're probably doing a little "CYA" and running a very slow temperature regulation loop09:17
rmullor it's just shitty chinese engineering09:18
* rmull is a shitty USA embedded device engineer09:18
Romsterprobably for durability, i'm thinking of separating the fan so the fan stays on and pulsing the duty cycle of the heater with a triac09:18
Romsteri can build mains rated circuits safely.09:18
Romsteri'm no engineer but i've designed some of my own circuits.09:19
Romsterjust by knowing the general rules and rating components within there operating range to the ambient temperature they'll be in.09:20
rmulljust be sure not to exceed what you think the temperature ratings of the heater and its housing are09:20
rmullWe had a heater plate that would literally turn into a puddle of aluminum if you kept it on too long09:20
Romsteri'll keep the original thermostat in circuit i'l just wind it up hotter than desired temp.09:21
sepenfrinnst: I'm still using the one from here
Romstera remote temp sensor in room to sense temperature, it's too difficult to measure temperature inside the heater.09:22
frinnstI tried the one in opt09:22
Romsteri built 19.0.1085.009:23
sepencompiled fine for you?09:23
sepenRomster: I'm only interested on -lnspr4 patch09:23
Romsterhad to add09:23
Romster  find . -type f -exec sed -i 's|<glib/.*\.h>|<glib.h>|g' {} +09:23
Romster  export LDFLAGS="$LDFLAGS -lnspr4"09:23
sepenyeah, that09:23
sepenI tried lot of versions, stable, devs, etc.09:23
teK_fun fact: my girlfriend stood behind me, looked over my shoulders (at chromium) and said: these red borders would annoy me09:24
Romsteri know it's hackey but the whole chromium build system is hacky09:24
teK_no shit sherly :P09:24
sepenteK_: lol09:24
sepenRomster: chromium build system is made to frighten people, like qt409:24
Romsterit's not chromium i don't think my system it's up to date yet but it's not got red borders on mine currently.09:25
sepenthey want to force us to use binaries, fuckers!09:25
teK_I reduced them to a minimum by switching to the gtk theme09:25
Romsterso where right on xorg or it's going to simmer for more flavour :D09:26
teK_everything gtk-painted or webkit-rendered works fine09:26
sepenRomster: I'll use your hack, thanks, and I'll try to research a bit more about the red stuff09:26
teK_even the website-icons int the tabbar09:26
teK_thanks sepen09:26
sepenmaybe I could change these borders to another colour, like pink, etc.09:26
Romstertrying to make qt and gtk look the same isn't easy.09:26
teK_yeah so my GF would find them more likeable09:27
Romstermust give jue credit for the regex in the sed and for jue spotting missing nspr409:28
Romsteri jsut added it and built it.09:28
sepenRomster: why not to add $(pkg-config --libs nspr)?09:28
Romsterthat would probably work too better.09:30
Romsterbut i got away wit what i did.09:31
sepenI'll try09:31
Romsterpkg-config --libs nspr09:31
Romster-lplds4 -lplc4 -lnspr4 -lpthread -ldl09:31
Romsterit'll work09:31
Romsterand be less breakable when nspr changes09:31
jueback to the xorg team: to have a overview, I'd like to know who might be interested to work in that team09:34
teK_any objections against the no-ML but aliases suggestion?09:35
sepenteK_: +1 for aliases :D09:35
Romsterwell i don't need to say anything you already know. But I wont do it alone.09:35
rmullI like to know what's going on with the discussion, but I don't need to weigh in...09:35
rmullAnd I'm not a crux dev, so...09:35
jueteK_: no09:35
teK_rmull: :)09:35
sepenjue: I could help too09:35
rmullteK_: This is for crux dev private discussion?09:36
sepenrmull: crux-devel channel is for that09:36
teK_just stay :P09:36
Romsterthis aliases thing i don't quite understand, what's wrong with "xorg team" and we should have a ML for discussion.09:36
* sepen hides09:36
teK_Romster: it's the easy route and I don't see that much value of a (public) archive09:37
Romsterrmull, your welcome to sit in here.09:37
teK_i.e. I as external user don't care about your discussions and you as part of the team have all the mails anyway09:37
sepenhmmm too many teams for so few developers09:37
jueRomster: the alias is only for the ck4up email notification09:37
teK_decide and let me / sepen know, we'll handle the rest  :)09:38
Romsterah same dev ML but a new prefix alias yeah I'd be happy with that +109:38
jueno, not a mailing list, all member of that group are emailed personally with the ck4up output09:39
Romstersepen, as much as i appreciate your work your quite busy and take some time to respond, by the time you get to xorg one of the others would of done it for you.09:39
Romsterah ok that's fine as well.09:39
* Romster makes coffee brb09:39
sepenRomster: I have no special effort to keep more ports, would be counterproductive09:40
sepenbut I could help when a maintainer go on vacations and a port needs to be updated09:42
sepenor to file tickets, test things, etc.09:43
sepenI do not think you can maintain the level of work and occupation which takes you forever, do you have a GF? that changes things :D09:45
Romsternope no GF09:45
teK_sepen: that's not true; mine does even help me do QA work for other people's ports!!09:45
sepenmaybe now09:46
Romsteri do spot checks from time to time on others and my own ports.09:46
sepenI have the impression that you make a fork of everything that you take :D09:47
Romsterif i was a good programmer i'd fork udev too.09:48
jaegerSorry, I had a phone call for a while just now, back. I'd be willing to work on the xorg team09:48
sepenI was wondering about to take mdev and start my own fork too09:49
Romsterturn mdev into some event driven daemon sepen09:50
jueok, until now we are four: jaeger, jue, sepen and Romster (in alphabetical order)09:52
juelooks like frinnst is AFK currenty09:53
teK_get your sorry ass into this discussion, dammit09:55
frinnston my way out the door ffs! :)09:59
Romstersure :P anything to escape10:00
Romsterxorg is pretty low maintenance except for major releases.10:00
sepenthese major releases can be accompanied by a roadmap on flyspray (if we think is required)10:11
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sepenback to home, later10:50
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sepenchromium without red borders14:52
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