IRC Logs for #crux-devel Monday, 2015-03-02

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Romsterjue, is it enough if i just add "domain .local" so i can resove a internal machine as ping foo.local?02:55
Romsterfor unbound02:56
Romsterping -c1 arkanoid.local02:59
Romsterping: unknown host arkanoid.local02:59
Romstertrying to figure this out so i can stop using /etc/hosts02:59
Romsterthen change all my static to DHCP03:01
jaegernever used unbound, myself, but dnsmasq is dead simple03:01
Romsteri was using dnsmasq03:01
jaegerwhy change? it works well03:01
Romsterhows it done on dnsmasq?03:01
Romsteri dunno think jue convinced me ages ago.03:01
jaegerhow's what done?03:01
jaegerfair enough, I was just curious03:01
Romsterits been on unbound for several years now.03:01
Romsterhow is dnsmasq setup to resolve hostnames for internal use?03:02
Romsteri added a "domain .local" to /etc/resolve.conf03:02
jaegerIt uses /etc/hosts03:02
Romsterall my machines point to unbound as a DNS cache.03:02
jaegeron the server. the clients treat it like regular DNS03:02
jaegerIf unbound works, no need to switch, I just wondered. Not familiar with unbound, myself03:03
jaegerI used to use dnsmasq because it's simple and supports dhcp name registration. They probably all do that now, though03:03
Romsteri have static ip addresses and names in /etc/hosts but i got over 10 enteries per a box and keeping them in sync... yeah i want to do this dynamically and remove static IP and go with DHCP03:03
jaegerwell, can't speak for unbound but with dnsmasq you'd only have them in /etc/hosts on the server03:04
jaegerthe clients would look them up through that server03:04
jaegerlike any other DNS server, really03:04
Romsterah right thats a point...03:04
jaegerman, it's been like 15 years since I used hosts files for name resolution, except on a one-off basis :)03:04
Romstermaybe if i set up MAC reservations and server only /etc/hosts03:04
Romsteryeah i've been doing this for ages now but it's getting un-manageable.03:05
Romstermy firewall is still on crux 2.7 with patches on bash openssl etc... time for a shakedown on a newer box to crux 3.103:06
Romsterannoyingly i got apache squid gitolite and other stuff on there to migrate too.03:06
Romsterlets see if /etc/hosts works with unbound as well.03:07
jaegerI run pfsense these days, got tired of maintaining my own firewall03:08
Romsterwould like to get rid of tcp_wrappers personally03:08
Romsternot like iptables is hard to use.03:09
Romsterah pfsense guess i like my own rig.03:09
Romsterironically it looks like pfsense uses unbound
jaegerit uses dnsmasq03:14
Romsterhmm i guess it is selectable03:14
jaegerdnsmasq is the default, unbound is an optional package03:14
Romsterwonder why they do that.03:15
jaegerwhy not? Some users may prefer unbound03:15
jaegernice to have options if you want03:15
Romsteri'm thinking more so on features etc.03:15
RomsterRegister DHCP static mappings, sounds like what i am after.03:16
jaegerI use that on my home network03:17
jaegerpretty handy03:18
Romsterah this is what i want. and it doesn't use /etc/hosts. bonus.03:19
Romsterdidn't know the terminology. this is new to me.03:19
Romsteri can set it in one place and all the boxes will just work without messing with /etc/hosts03:20
Romsterthanks jaeger you've been helpful.03:20
Romsteryes ping foo.local works... can't believe it was that simple03:23
Romsterso i'll setup all my machines as hostname.local03:24
Romsterno more needing to use ip numbers03:24
Romsterthen DHCP it all and not even have to set a DHCP reservation03:24
Romsteroh that wont work i still need DHCP reservations.03:26
Romsterto keep the same ip for this to resolve.03:26
Romsternever really liked DHCP for it can be abused. but not like i'll get that on a internal network as small as mine.03:27
Romsteri've been too paranoid which is why i went with static03:28
jaegerI don't worry about my DHCP service at work being abused. If anyone abuses it they're only screwing themselves, heh03:32
prologicso how have you solved your dns issues Romster?03:34
Romsteryes and i already had the tools installed no offense to your udns suggestion. i just wanted too see if the existing dns cache could do this first.03:35
Romsteri'd like to see tcp_wrappers removed from crux on crux 3.203:36
Romsterand a simple firewall service script for iptables-{save,restore} used03:36
prologicyes I asked "how"03:37
prologicI don't want an iptables rule03:37
prologicit won't work without proper kernel config anyway03:38
prologicjust remove tcp_wrappers and be done with it03:38
prologicend of story03:38
Romsterah easy with unbound03:38
prologicI almost never (in fact never) use it03:38
Romsteredit /etc/unbound/unbound.conf]03:38
Romsterand set03:38
Romsterlocal-zone: "local." static03:38
Romster        local-data: "fire.local. IN A"03:38
Romster        local-data: "arkanoid.local. IN A"03:38
Romsterand restart unbound job done.03:38
Romsterof course then you need DHCP reservations if you use DHCP to keep them same ip numbers.03:39
prologicno different to anything really03:39
Romsterso i can do http://fire.local for my server and i'll ad a second entry for romster.me03:40
Romsternot really basic as i just didn't see where this went and sites did say they read from /etc/hosts03:40
jaegeryou don't need static if all you use is name resolution, for what that's worth03:40
jaegerif the IP changes but the name follows it03:40
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jaeger(well, depends on the service, I suppose)03:40
Romsterwell i can't use a MAC address in unbound03:41
Romsterso DHCP reservations can.03:41
Romsterfine if all the boxes are static though... maybe i can keep my static03:41
jaegercan what?03:41
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Romsterif i used DHCP IPs do change wont match up to the A records then03:42
Romsterso foo.local would break03:42
jaegerWell, if your dhcp and dns server aren't the same, yes03:42
jaegerI was thinking in dnsmasq terms, but I guess unbound doesn't do dhcp03:42
jaegernever mind03:42
Romstercore/dhcp opt/unbound03:42
Romsterah dnsmasq can do dhcp too? hmm.03:43
jaegerthat's what makes it convenient03:43
jaegerIf it's configured to accept DHCP reservations the name automatically updates when the IP changes03:43
Romsterwhy did i listen to jue lol... unless unbound has DHCP and i hadn't looked yet03:43
Romsterright that is interesting 3 birds with 1 stone03:44
jaegerI assume there's nothing wrong with unbound, it does its job03:44
Romsterinternal intranet names dhcp/dns cache03:44
jaegerdnsmasq does both jobs, that's all03:44
Romsteryeah unbound does work great for what it does.03:44
Romsterno issues over which is better03:45
Romsterweigh up the features and benefits for a particular use.03:46
jaegerI like dnsmasq for home network use, it simplifies things greatly. I have no idea if it scales for large sites03:47
Romster old review but yeah03:48
Romsterdnsmasq does more.03:48
Romsteractually i think i was using maradns before moving to unbound.03:48
Romsterso jue might of been right for me to move to unbound.03:49
Romsteri'd assume bind would take over for a large organization03:49
Romsters much as i use apache at home and squid on a small home network. so i am familiar with then, i was never keen on running bind.03:50
jaegerbind is common, yeah, though I also see some places use djbdns or powerdns03:50
jaegerI like bind because I'm familiar with it, been using it at work for many many years03:50
Romsterso there is alternatives to bind03:50
jaegeryeah, there's a ton of DNS software03:50
jaeger <-- one list03:51
prologicI wrote udns because I didn't want to fuck around with bind config ilfes or modifying /etc/hosts03:51
Romsteryeah thats why i use apache at home instead of lighthttpd. because then i use the same apache on a datacenter03:51
Romsterwell i don't have to touch /etc/hosts this way prologic03:51
jaegerI hear lots of people bitch about bind config files but I don't find them difficult at all. I keep them very clean, too03:51
prologicbut don't you still have to touch unbound's config?03:51
jaegerAll a matter of preference, I suppose. I use grub2 as well, after all03:51
jaegerperhaps I'm in the minority, heh03:51
Romsterand i thnk i'l jsut stay with static it's not a big deal when i don't have to deal with names in every machine in /etc/hosts03:52
prologicjaeger: nothing wrong with the bind format :)03:52
prologicin fact udns is able to impomrt/export ti/from it :)03:52
prologicI actually like the format03:52
Romsterjaeger, yeah i've read lots of reports f bind hate for being so complex.03:52
prologicyeah I haven't really followed what you've done tbh03:52
prologicbut I thought you were after something a bit more scriptable03:53
Romsterit's probably more so they don't understand what they are doing.03:53
Romsterhope i'm not taking u your time.03:53
jaegerit's easy to make ugly zone files in bind, no doubt about that... but I suppose you can do that with any server, probably03:54
Romsterlearned things today.03:54
jaegerI keep mine well organized, though03:54
Romsterwell if it's clean it's easy to spot mistakes if any.03:54
Romsterit's like saying perl is horrible. it isn't. the persons that write the ugly scripts for perl are bad.03:55
prologicin this case Perl really is horrible03:55
Romsterpython just makes it nearly? impossible to write ugly code.03:55
prologicsorry but a lot of the Perlisms are well just unreadable03:55
prologicunless you're a Perl developer of some decades03:55
Romsteroh so bad example03:55
prologicvery bad example03:55
prologicwhen you have to understand and remmeber weird and obscure symbols to write code03:56
Romsterso years and years of like glibc changes. and bad functions to never call like gets vs fgets03:56
prologicyour code quickly becomes unreadblae at best03:56
prologicat least C is more readable :)03:56
Romsteri see i'll stop comparing to perl then. is ruby any better?03:57
prologicno :)03:57
Romsterother than ruby gems...03:57
prologicRuby is almost just as bad as Perl03:57
prologicit has horrible semantics that can trip you up too03:57
Romsterthis is coming from a biased Python developer :)03:57
prologicwatch this03:57
prologicyou'lll undetstn  and laugh :)03:57
prologicno no03:58
prologicthis is coming from a developer that went from BASIC, C, C++, Delphi, Pascal, to VB, PHP, Java, Python, JavaScript03:58
prologicoh and a few years of Assembly (Intel i386/486/Pentium)03:58
Romsteroh you did Delphi too as well.03:59
prologiconce upon a time03:59
prologicthe original PIRCSrv was written in Delphi03:59
prologicbefore that it was written in mIRC Script03:59
Romsterexpensive language licenses no wonder fpc is one of 2 remaining implementations.03:59
Romsterhaha those where the days03:59
prologicI've been programming for some 2 decades or more :)03:59
prologicso I detest you saying I'm biased on Python03:59
Romsteryeah i've only dabbled in it and not really understand a lot.04:00
prologicI've only been programming Python for the past 7 years commercially04:00
prologic10 in open source04:00
prologici.e: circuits the framework is 10 years old04:00
Romsteri'm more of a sysadmin/electronics person than anything else.04:00
Romsteri'm aware of circuits i was there when it was born.04:01
Romstera =a nil...04:02
prologictold ya you'd find it funny :)04:03
prologicNow this is saying something...04:03
prologicbut Go has a nice syntax04:03
prologicand nice semantics04:03
prologicI would argue Go is better on many levels than JavaScript or Ruby or Perl04:03
prologicany day04:03
Romsterwtf [] = {} is object... in java04:04
Romsteri've did some javascript never again.04:04
prologicdon't confuse the two :)04:05
prologicJavaScript != Java04:05
prologicif you want fancy ui and interactions client-side in a web app04:05
Romsteri now that. iv'e done javascript in web pages. to use the DOM04:05
prologicyou _have_ to use JS :)04:05
prologicyou have no other choice really04:05
Romsteri wish there were other scripting engiens in browser... like python04:06
prologicbrowsers pretty much have no other execution engines really04:06
prologicwhich I find really sad as a software engineer04:06
prologicI wish they implemented a standard vm and bytecode04:06
prologicthat langauges could target and compile to04:06
Romsterthat is some crazy shit in that video...04:07
Romsteras close to java as i have got is ant and compiling java stuff.04:07
prologicyou didn't laugh at all ?04:07
prologicthat video cracks me up every time I watch it04:07
Romsteri grinned04:07
prologicit's actually been one I've wathced quite often to cheer me up :)04:08
Romstermy gawd04:08
Romsteryeah i want python or go in browsers bugger off javascript04:08
prologiccommercial software development can be depressing at times04:08
prologicand often boring :)04:08
Romsterthey could do lots to include llvm in a web browser!04:09
Romsterand write a frontend for javascript,python,go. what have you04:09
Romsteri'm getting way off topic for this channel.04:10
Romsteroh the other night iw as raelly annoyed at retard's being /infected/ by my English issues. i should of just used /ignore and not said a thing.04:11
Romsteri can take constructive criticism04:11
Romsterand corrections.04:11
Romsterbut saying i'll infect -_-04:11
jaegerRomster: hehe, that sentence just made me laugh, sorry04:12
Romsterand then use "My" instead of "I"04:12
Romsterah glad to help make you laugh.04:12
jaegerjust because in that sentence was the very thing about which he complained04:12
Romstertilman is right i do the same mistakes all the time.04:13
jaegerfortunately he's not here to see it :)04:13
prologicit was a bit funny04:13
prologicand a little anal at the same time04:13
Romstereh i guess it was in hindsight.04:13
Romsterhonestly unless the person has done soemting for /project/ in this case crux. i don't value much of retards opinions.04:14
Romstertilman more so but he is fine in his own way.04:14
prologicso; you don't value my opinion? :)04:15
prologicI've done squat for crux :)04:15
Romsterirc logs anyways04:15
Romsterprologic, i value your opinion because your a programmer and a good one at that.04:15
Romsterand you've worked for big names.04:15
Romsteri probably have less to show for what i do.04:16
prologicI've done nothing really04:16
prologicjust an average white collar worker04:16
Romsterwifi networks with hellson tons of programming.04:16
Romsteri'm more mechanically minded in photo copiers etc. cabling.04:17
Romsterand an insane packager.04:17
Romstercoffee time and onto other stuff here.04:23
diverseRomster: even if he is trying to correct you about it, he could have been nicer about it without being a grammar nazi troll.04:40
Romsterthe first point that annoyed me was no reference for something that was what 6 hours ago?04:42
Romstersure if it was in the last half hour or something be different.04:42
Romsteri do many things i wont remember what he is talking about.04:42
Romsterand you know the rest and my instead of i04:42
Romsterand his name, i smell a troll. i've always been suspicious of that person.04:43
jaegerwhat are you talking about with the "my vs i" comment?04:44
Romsterof course tilman chimes in i do spelling mistakes all the time. i could have said at least i'm helping crux still what are you doing now? but i refrained from that.04:44
diverseafter some thought about it, I did thought it was interesting that "should've" sounds pretty similar to "should of" when you pronounce it out loud. So I thought it was an interesting morph of English by sound.04:44
Romsterretardmy a wanker?04:45
jaegerfor what it's worth nearly all the brits or aussies I know do that04:45
jaegeroh, that. He was picking on your use of "your" in that case04:45
Romsterand talkes ot me about using 'should of' than 'should have'04:45
jaegerpossessive instead of contraction "you're"04:45
Romsteroh i typed there too... blah... should of been you're04:46
Romsterdid't see that.04:46
Romsterhe thinks he is so good... because i struggle.04:46
jaegerJust ignore him. People love to be assholes on the internet. We're all guilty of that04:47
Romsteryeah i have done it too i now irc well i used to moderate... and funiily enough i was /the/ most friendly irc oper on apparently. back in its day.04:47
Romsternothing new there no split milk over it.04:48
Romsteri can be an arse though -_-04:48
Romsterdepending on my mood and if i've been roughed the wrong way.04:49
jaegerI put people off by playing devil's advocate all the time and being pedantic to boot. Been trying to do less of that lately.04:49
diversejaeger: but it was funny at the end when retard said "my a wanker" (while incorrect because he is using possessive I) when I think he was trying to say "me a wanker" (which is still wrong, because you should use the subject form "I" while not object form "me"), so you could tease him about "I'm a wanker?" for all the grammar nazi trouble he went through with but it's not worth all the trouble.04:49
jaegerdiverse: he said "my a wanker" intentionally, in direct response to "your a wanker"04:49
jaegerbecause your implies possessive04:50
jaegerwell, implies is incorrect. it IS possessive.04:50
RomsterEnglish such a ugly language04:50
Romsteron top of that Australia does have many different words that make no sense to those outside of Australia.04:51
diversebut still, irc is informal chat04:52
Romsterbut nothing to do with my grammar the other night04:52
prologicEnglish has to be one of the most ambiguous languages ever evolved IHMO.04:52
Romsterhence why i don't bother too much on punctuation and capitalizing04:52
Romsteralso i do many mistakes using american z intead of british s04:53
diversethat's not a mistake...04:53
diverserather, both forms should be accepted04:54
Romsterits considered me mixing my usa english with british english04:54
diverseI see...04:55
Romsterif i were to use usa english spell checker at school i'd get marked with a lower mark,04:55
Romsterits not australian/british english so therefore it is incorrect.04:56
Romsterhell even saying mom is wrong as we use mum04:56
Romsteryeah :/04:56
jaegerWell, it's not as if you have to answer to anyone on the internet about it.04:56
Romsterno one pulls me up on that on irc04:56
diverseI never knew there was English-prejudice up until now04:57
jaegerThere's prejudice about *everything* because people are assholes04:57
jaegerAlso there's no easier place for people to be assholes than on the internet04:58
jaeger <-- I submit this for your consideration04:59
diversebut it's also easier to ignore them there, where as being graded for using usa english, is another thing04:59
jaegerIndeed, that's the point I was making04:59
Romsteryeah they say all sorts of stuff but they never would to my face.05:00
Romsterso true05:01
RomsterDISTCC_HOSTS="--randomize arkanoid.local/4 space.local/4 xeon.local/4 cluster1.local/2 cluster2.local/2 cluster3.local/2 cluster4.local/2"05:07
Romsterno more ips no more /etc/hosts05:07
Romsterexcept they don't resolve on the same box as unbound works on.05:10
Romsterresolve.conf is set to on the box with unbound and it's allowed in unbound.conf05:12
jaegeris it listening on the loopback interface?05:13
jaegeranything in the logs?05:13
Romsterthere's my problem i bind-ed it to the one ip05:13
prologicyou'll want
Romsterand ::005:14
Romsteri should start making everything ipv6 aware too.05:14
Romsterbtw prologic you could use unbound and then use unbound-control in a circuits component to do your stuff. like adding to the intranet A records05:16
prologicI could05:17
prologicbut udns is better :)05:17
prologicand faster :)05:17
Romstergo figure05:17
prologicudnsc add local. foo
prologicjust joking :)05:17
prologicthe nice thing is that udns is backed by redis05:18
prologicso you can setup a redis master/slave05:18
prologicand run udns as a cluster05:18
Romsternow she works.05:18
prologicI actually plan to start running udnsd in production for all my domains soon05:19
Romsteri guess that's fine for a circuits use thing. but i've had this firewall going for years.05:19
Romsterbetter be secure.05:19
prologic*shrugs* :)05:19
Romsterany DNSSEC support?05:19
prologicI trust dnslib and circuits05:19
prologicI'm not even sure I have that enabled on my bind servers rigth now05:20
prologicI could probably implement it as a plugin though05:21
prologicif the need arises or the feature is wanted05:21
prologicI think it's more of an issue on larger more mission critical sites05:21
prologicwhere dns hijacking is common place05:21
Romsteroffer some service, i'm sure it'll get abused.06:53
Romsteri've been dossed in the past even06:54
frinnstholy backlog, batman!07:18
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jueRomster: I use dnsmasq _and_ unbound together08:10
juednsmasq is serving my internal host defined in /etc/hosts on the server running dnsmasq and all external queries are forwarded to a unbound on this machine08:12
jueI use dnsmasq for dhcp as well08:12
jueunbound is running on and I have a server= in my dnsmasq.conf08:14
jueRomster: you listen to me because you ask me for a recursive, caching DNS resolver which can do DNSSEC08:18
Romsteri wasn't expecting both08:21
juethat works very nice, just set 'interface:' in your unbound config08:23
Romsterso your using dnsmasq for resolving and everything, and only unbound for caching.08:24
jueI like the idea to split the authoritative dns server and the recursive dns resolver08:24
Romsterseems over the top but i dunno08:25
jueno, dnsmaq is only for internal dns queries (to local hosts) everything external is unbound08:25
jues/to local hosts/ for local hosts/08:26
Romsterright your using this DHCP resolver and A records for local DNS names.08:26
jueand dnsmasq is my dhcp server too08:26
Romsterlike jaeger is doing the same.08:26
Romstermakes sense.08:27
Romsterwhat i got now works in only unbound.08:27
Romsterbut if i were to move to DHCP i'd probably do what your doing.08:27
Romsteri am happy with unbound but missing DHCP08:27
Romsterand i think unbound does a better job of recursive dns resolver08:28
jueyeah, I think the combo dnsmasq/unbound is probably the best setup you can have in small local lan08:28
juewell, dnsmasq works nice too, but I'd like to have dnssec08:29
Romsteranythign specal other tan sticking unbound on and dnsmasq on
Romsterdoes unbound feed off dnsmasq08:30
Romsterhmm i may go for that but for now i'll keep static and unbound08:32
Romsterthe thought never occurred to run both.08:32
juenot really, here's my dnsmasq.conf ->
juethe only relevant thing in unounf is -> interface:
Romsterright and you set dnsmasq to not cache.08:34
Romsterso it reads from /etc/hosts08:34
Romsteroff the server its on only.08:34
jueit reads from /etc/hosts, that's the authoritative part08:35
Romsteronly thing is, i want kill off all traces of tcp_wrappers08:35
Romsterand solely go with iptables08:36
Romstertcp_wrappers has had it's day.08:36
Romsteroh that's in glibc... that is fine then08:37
Romsterif i pkgrm tcp_wrappers do you thik i'll break much?08:38
juelook at -> prt-get dependent tcp_wrappers08:39
Romsteri think i'll go with your setup and just removed tcp_wrappers off this new box.08:40
Romsterah mail agent exim08:40
Romsternot and cups arn't being used.08:40
jueI use both, tcp_wrappers on my local boxes and iptables on the router/gateway08:40
jueworks nice for me ;)08:40
Romsterodd that i removed tcp_wrappers and revdep didn't report exim08:41
Romsterfinddeps exim08:41
Romsterdb (core)08:41
Romsterglibc (core)08:41
Romsterlibpcre (core)08:41
Romsteropenssl (core)08:41
Romsterdoesn't even link to libwrap.so08:42
Romsterunless its dynamically loaded at run time08:42
juehmm, for me does08:43
Romsterah on recompile smtp_in.c:24:20: fatal error: tcpd.h: No such file or directory08:43
Romster   #include <tcpd.h>08:43
juetry ldd08:43
Romsterok now finddeps says tcp_wrapeprs.08:45
Romsterthe one off the iso doens't link with tcp_wrappers or something.08:45
Romstergranted i did install from a crux 3.1 RC208:45
Romsterdidn't bother to burn a later one.08:45
Romster-# USE_TCP_WRAPPERS=yes08:50
Romster-# EXTRALIBS_EXIM=-L/usr/local/lib -lwrap08:50
Romsterin exim-config.patch08:50
Romsteri could easily build exim without that.08:50
Romsterthen do away with tcp_wappers and solely rely on iptables.08:51
Romsterexim why don't they use autotools.08:53
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jueI forgot to say, the biggest difference between the resolver part of dnsmasq and unbound is, besides DNSSEC, that dnsmasq isn't recursive, meaning you depend on the resolver of your provider or something like google's
juethat said, dnsmasq is only a cache and a forwarder while unbound is full recursive11:08
Romsterwhile you set dnsmasq's config to disable it's cache11:34
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jueteK_: libgcrypt 1.6.3 is a security fix ->
jueteK_: if you have not the time to do the update I can do it14:03
RomsterteK_, you seemed too busy so i fixed clang footprint.14:04
Romsterdid ask a few days ago.14:04
Romsteri'd say just bump it jue. teK_ is extremely busy. like 15 hours 7 days a week he said? something crazy.14:05
jueok, in case of a security fix I'd say it's important enough to do it asap14:08
Romsterhopefully it doesn't break anything, see a few things depend on it including cryptsetup gnupg14:10
Romstertesting deps that depend on libgcrypt in opt and contrib14:15
Romstershould be ok but i have seen a breakage with gnupg before on a libgcrypt update14:16
Romsterironically they come form the same people i think?14:17
teK_oh boy :)14:22
teK_hi folks14:22
teK_thanks for updating that stuff.14:22
teK_wrt clang I made several runs to build 3.6 (!) on my laptop which failed due to overheating14:22
teK_I will retry with a smaller -j X ..14:23
Romsteroh i got to it.14:23
teK_also frinnst jue jaeger leo-unglaub did you see sepen's mail?14:23
Romster3.5.1 footprint fix. and file claseh withllvm14:24
Romsteri didn't touch 3.614:24
Romsterwnat me to build 3.6?14:24
leo-unglaubteK_, mail?14:25
*** sepen has joined #crux-devel14:25
teK_to the ML14:25
teK_Romster: I just fired up the laptop, I can tell in two hours :P14:26
teK_sepen: welcome14:26
teK_glad you found the time to join14:26
sepenI'm tired about some comments14:26
sepenteK_: thanks guy14:26
teK_which ones?14:26
sepenreally I don't have time ATM14:26
teK_for what precisely?14:27
sepen>>>> Romster: sure he has real life stuff but is it hard to come on irc a bit.14:27
Romsteryou never spend any time on irc sorry. and leo-unglaub is updating xfce and you did the work for him.14:27
sepenCRUX, the IRC-based distro14:27
sepenWhere I can read about leo as xfce maintainer?14:28
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sepenany notice?14:28
Romsteror you do when i'm not around.14:28
leo-unglaubhey sepen14:28
leo-unglaubi think we have not met on irc before14:28
sepensure sure14:28
leo-unglaubabout this entire xfce thing14:28
leo-unglaubmultiple people have tryed to reach you via email14:28
leo-unglaubbut no one got a reply from you14:29
teK_several times14:29
leo-unglaubme, tek, ...14:29
teK_I figured you got my messages as they bounced on other people before. They didn't recently14:29
sepenso I must enter to irc14:29
Romsterjust be reachable on email would be enough. like 24-48  hour reply?14:30
teK_mail is just fine. Yet IRC is fine AND quick14:30
teK_let's go back to the you don't have time statement. What for? IRC? Mail? Or XFCE or a combination?14:30
sepenI did not have problems with frinnst emails14:31
Romsteri tried to email once ages ago it bounced.14:31
teK_You could not find an announcment of leo-unglaub being (sole) maintainer because that's not the plan14:31
teK_Yet I granted commit access to him two days ago.14:32
teK_For me and I think the others will agree, the optimal scenario for xfce will be you and leo working together14:32
sepenteK_: if you trust on him then I also do it14:32
teK_the first question is if you are ok with that14:33
sepen+1 (but has no value)14:33
leo-unglaubsepen, i dont want any bad feelings here, maybe this is all a problem about some bounced email. just with not reaching you and 4.12 upcomming and xfce4-terminal beeing out of date for 2 years if just thought it would be easier if i fix it directly instead of always trying to reach you14:33
sepenI saw a commit I did not made14:33
teK_your opinion very well has value to us14:34
teK_that's why I/we reached out to you :)14:34
teK_at least we tried14:34
sepenleo-unglaub: ok, and what about 'fuck-the-xfce-maintainer'?14:34
sepenwith this kind of sentences, I prefer to stay away from people like you14:35
leo-unglaubi cannot remember that statement14:35
leo-unglaubbut it sounds like something i would say if i cannot reach someone for weeks14:35
teK_I propose you two sort that out in private (who is fucking whom where when and how etc.)14:36
Romsteri've said a few things of where is sepen never comes on to say hi, we miss you.14:37
teK_I think we agree that our xfce repo needs some love and bumping especially with the 4.12 release14:37
leo-unglaubsepen, i really dont want you to have the impression i am forcing myself on to that repository. if you want to do it and are reachable i have no problem with that14:38
Romsterand frustrated that xfce4 has had issues. and other users keep complaining that xfce4 doesn't work right. even my girlfriend said it had issues and i've seen screenshots of it... but older version now. so frustrated at its state.14:39
Romsteranyways maybe i should care less. it isnt my area of crux.14:39
leo-unglaubactually i dont see the big problem ... someone has to do it ... and if sepen doesnt have the time or is reachable for questions then someone else has to do it14:41
leo-unglaubi dont care if its me or sepen or someone else14:41
leo-unglaubi just want the ports to work14:41
teK_I'd like the dual mainainer approach if and only if you both manage to get along.14:42
leo-unglaubsure, i have no problem with sepen14:42
Romsteri would like if sepen and leo-unglaub both were in the xfce group. and you too talk together.14:43
Romsterleo-unglaub, is knowledgeable we have seen his ports.14:44
leo-unglaubsepen, so, what do you think?14:49
sepensorry, I'm a bit busy at office14:50
sepenreading now14:50
sepenRomster: if xfce4 had issues, where are the filed tickets?14:51
teK_come one14:52
Romsteri had talked to you personally a few times.14:52
teK_CRUX is not the flyspray based distro either14:52
Romsteryou  have been to busy with real life which is fine. everyone has real life commitments.14:52
teK_we always used all three channels for communicating bugs14:52
Romsterhalf the icons are missing. tons of patches for xarchiver14:53
Romster got annoyed i made my own ports.14:53
teK_and that's the worst case, duplicating people's work14:54
Romstergranted i should submit to bug tracker but i forget every detail now. i left it oo long because you've been too busy. then i can't recall every detail.14:54
teK_so talk to each other.14:54
Romsteri just want it working sigh.14:54
Romstergirlfriend wanted to use xfce. i went though hell finding all the issues. but my ports are stale now. new versions are out.14:55
sepenRomster: really??? 4.11.x ports?14:55
Romsterno older14:55
sepennah, I just bored and tired about that14:55
Romsterthen tell us so someone can take control if your bored anymore?14:55
sepen4.11.1 (development version marked as inestable)14:55
leo-unglauboh come on ...14:55
teK_focus on the future, please14:56
sepenare these the kind of improvements you're talking about?14:56
leo-unglaubthis is not about a ticket ..14:56
Romsteryeah well i started cleaning up... because the stable version would not compile.14:56
teK_skip that stuff or move to /query14:56
teK_sepen: will you do it together with leo-unglaub or not14:56
Romsteri don't care what happens i jsut want xfce4 working please.14:56
teK_any model of collaboration?14:56
teK_i.e. splitting ports or how will you do it14:57
sepenbut better you can remove my git access to xfce repository since I'm not interesting on maintain 'development' branches14:57
teK_4.12 is not stable14:57
teK_how is removing your access working together?14:57
Romsterit can be stable branches?14:57
teK_is 4.12. not stable?14:57
leo-unglaub4.12 is stable14:58
Romsteri'll remove the xfce ports i got if it offends anyone.14:58
leo-unglaubthe developers of xfce4 even recommended the use of 4.11 ... and xubuntu even di that14:58
teK_save that disucussion for the next dev branch release :)14:58
sepenI'm going to de-subscribe me from XFCE mailing lists, so feel free to remove my git access from crux's xfce repository14:58
teK_4.12. is the hot shit right now14:58
sepenI prefer to hide myself14:59
teK_sepen: seriously?14:59
leo-unglaubsepen, why? i thought we would do it together?14:59
teK_before you do that I want you to hear me out14:59
teK_I got other stuff to do, too14:59
teK_still I tried tomake this work with YOU and leo on board14:59
sepenI'm really tired, and some comments anoying me a lot15:00
teK_I put an effort into xfce even though I am not using it15:00
Romsterxfprint is broken too btw and i see no newer versions of that.15:00
teK_and now you tell me, after 30 minutes of argument ping=-pong you're quitting?15:00
Romstera few in #crux pointed that out.15:00
sepenclang was broken and nobody cares15:00
sepenand some more important stuff was also broken15:00
teK_that's a whole different story you know?15:00
Romsteri fixed it tek was too busy15:00
Romsterjust before.15:00
sepenand that for what we have a FS zone15:00
sepenteK_: I know15:01
leo-unglaubsepen, yes it was broken .. so what? software is broken. as long as you can reach the maintainer to fix it there is no problmen15:01
leo-unglaubwhy cannot we do that together?15:01
Romstertek is here most of the time your not sepen15:01
teK_sepen: also note that Romster is free to utter his opinion. Yet neither he nor I are core devs. I just took the matter into hands.15:01
Romstereven if he is busy15:01
Romsteror his laptop overheats and can't get clang fixed.15:02
teK_so, are you willing to stay committed or not? I won't forbid devs to state their opinion and I ask you to do the same. you don't have to work toegether with Romster.15:02
Romstercan we get along can we get xfce in a working state where /all/ xfce ports work from prt-get depinst foo?15:02
teK_Romster: + make -j115:03
sepenprt-get depinst xfce4 worked for me last night15:03
Romsteri'm not in xfce i have enough as it is now. but i don't mind helping to test. and report... if someone is around to talk to about it.15:04
teK_still I'd like to continue doing my RL stuff. I am not leaving until you answered my question15:04
sepenand note that I was working on xfce ports after jue decided to leave them, so I just wanted to keep xfce working (as better as I can)15:04
teK_and that's great. Why do you think I want you to stay on board?15:04
sepennow I think I can leave them too since there are more freshen people15:04
sepenI never eard about leo, but if you (Romster and tek) trust on him I also will do it15:05
sepenhard to explain that with my english15:05
teK_partially I can understand your point of view15:06
Romsterits ok sepen we like you i just think you need some help with this.15:06
teK_it should not hinder you to see that it'd be best if you stayed with leo to maintain xfce.15:06
Romsterto get it polished up.15:06
Romsteryou both have experience work together.15:07
sepenwell I can stay with leo but just for historical reasons15:07
Romsternot against.15:07
Romsterand not partake in maintaining as well? come on man.15:07
teK_add the social component; We don't wnat to see you go.15:07
Romsterare you going sour on us? bored with crux?15:07
sepennot with crux but irc15:08
Romsterits a hobby to be enjoyed15:08
teK_if you want the bugs to be commited via FS that's ok15:08
teK_mind though that people join #crux to report issues all the time15:08
sepenparticullary I don't like that15:09
teK_it has upsides and downsides15:09
sepenbut this is just my POV15:09
juesepen: FWIW, I'd really appreciate it if you continue to work for CRUX15:10
teK_well sure but I'm happy about _any_ feedback..15:10
Romsteri'm frustrated at the state it's in.15:10
Romsteri should not be but i am -_-15:10
juesepen: and I agree, reporting bugs in IRC is the worst way to do it15:10
teK_but it's quick and wewon't stop people doing that15:11
Romsteragreed flyspray for that and i have reported bugs t oyu sepen like i even gave you a easy to apply patch for jdk.15:11
teK_wont stop = cant stop15:11
sepenI was forced to appear in irc15:11
teK_not at all. Don't turn this around15:11
Romsteryou don't answer emails?15:11
teK_I have run out of time. Please tell you how you decided. I can revoke your access if that's your wish15:13
teK_see you soon15:13
sepena month ago or so I got some problems with my smtp server, now is fixed. anyway I never had problems with emails from pitillo, frinnst, jaeger, etc.15:13
Romstersepen, also tek has practicly taken over the position of portdb too you arn't around to do that even.15:15
sepenteK_: If you think that I can be useful then I will stay as co-maintainer, but rather leave the mainstream development to leo15:15
Romsterhaving a life is fine... i work 5 days a week. i find time.15:15
sepenRomster: I doubt that15:15
sepensee messages posted in contrib-admin@15:16
Romsteri don't think i got access to see that one.15:16
sepenbut you can talk15:18
Romsteryeah i don't. so i can't see what goes on there.15:18
Romsterdo you run a clean environment still? and prt-get depinst each port of xfce to see if missing dependencies?15:19
sepenI build every port on jenkins+safe-crux environment15:19
sepenas an automated CI task15:20
Romsteri'll test xfce4 new updates and make bug reports on flyspray on anything i find broken.15:20
Romsterok then i shouldn't find anything wrong.15:20
Romsteri'm using docker now instead of my save-build in chroot method.15:20
sepenwell, if you find some wrong then good for us, so I can fix and improve quality15:21
sepenRomster: do a try with jenkins15:21
Romsterthat is all i ask15:21
sepenjenkins + docker could be fine for you15:21
Romsteri've been looking at jenkins actually.15:21
sepenmousepad wont' being updated due to new dep: gtksourceview15:21
leo-unglaubgreat, so sepen you and me are doing this together now?15:21
sepenand yours (in your private repo) can not be built15:22
sepenxfce4-indicator-plugin also failed to build15:22
Romsteroh btw i nwo this should be on a flyspray report but chromium needs pciutils listed as a dependency as it links to it.15:22
sepenleo-unglaub: I prefer that you lead maintenance15:22
leo-unglaubsepen, okay, if you want that no problem15:23
Romsteryeah i never got it all done i gave up after a point15:23
sepenRomster: I'm building chromium ATM because I was bloqued due to clang update15:23
sepenthere is an update pending for chromium on where I also added .desktop file to fix a FS ticket15:24
leo-unglaubsepen, i hope you still keep the git access ... because maybe i am offline a day or so as well then you can do an emergency fix15:24
Romstersorry for teK_ broken port, teK_ is busy and poor laptop cna't handle such a massive build so i decided to fix it.15:24
sepenleo-unglaub: just one thing, please don't be rude15:24
leo-unglaubsepen, if i ever was rude, it was not meant personally. i have no problem with you at all15:24
sepenRomster: nah I supossed you were working on it, but didn't have time for irc at office15:25
leo-unglaubbut if it affended you, i am sorry15:25
sepenleo-unglaub: thanks15:25
leo-unglaubsepen, have you push your latest changes?15:25
leo-unglaubthen i merge my local version with current HEAD15:25
sepengo ahead15:25
sepencould you test my email? please send me a test one15:26
Romsterbe nice to work together and make it high quality.15:26
leo-unglaubsepen, done15:27
leo-unglaubRomster, thats the plan15:27
sepenreply sent15:27
leo-unglaubsepen, did also arrive?15:27
sepenplease, don't use plain email format here15:28
sepenwe are logged15:28
Romstereep yeah15:28
Romsteralways obfiscate email addresss like foo at something dot com15:28
sepenI'm ready to accept spam15:29
Romsteri'll get prologic to remove the email for you.15:29
leo-unglaubsepen, sorry, did not thinkg about that15:29
sepenor to write a little hack to convert emails15:29
sepenleo-unglaub: np15:29
sepenleo-unglaub: sepen at crux dot nu || sepen at crux-arm dot nu : both worked for me15:30
leo-unglaubokay, great15:30
Romsteri'll sugest that teK_ or osmeone setup flyspray email xfce at crux do nu and a xfce group on flyspray if one is not already15:30
Romsterso you can both get emails from the xfce at crux... off Maintainer:15:31
leo-unglaubRomster, yeah i have to check whats going on there with the mailinglist15:31
Romsteras like we do for compat-32 core team and xorg team.15:31
RomsterteK_, can sort it out when he has time.15:31
leo-unglaubi did not get sepen mail to the mailinglist15:31
leo-unglaubsepen, one more think15:32
leo-unglaubi am working on an xfce-power-down group so that the restart/shutdown buttons work automaticly15:33
leo-unglaubit works great locally, i am going to merge this is as well15:33
sepenwhat about to use the Romster idea?15:33
leo-unglaubi think they are pretty similar15:34
sepenMaintainer as compat-32 and xorg15:34
leo-unglaubah, that idea15:34
leo-unglaubagain, i have no problem with you and dont want to "steal" it from you. i am happy if we work together15:34
Romsteris that using polkit that was another problem in xfce it wouldn't shut down15:35
leo-unglaubRomster, polkit is one option15:35
sepenand only one rule if you're agree, please do not put beta/development/inestable versions, etc.15:35
sepenleo-unglaub: as I said, I was keeping xfce because nobody else did, but this has changed15:36
leo-unglaubi agree, but thunar and xfce4-terminal as an exception. they have different release cycles than the rest. but i would never put stuff in there where i am not sure it's working15:36
Romsteronly stable.15:36
sepenleo-unglaub: thanks15:37
Romsterugh did my host go down again15:37
leo-unglaubbut i am also against those distros that now ship always git head ... i want this stuff to be stable15:37
leo-unglaubsepen, if you dont like irc, do you have jabber? or just email?15:38
leo-unglaubwhat do you prefer?15:38
sepenI like irc, I was very active in the past, but nowadays I don't have the same free time as I had15:39
sepenIMHO important things should be discussed in mailing lists15:39
sepenbecause irc logs are hard to parse and search contents15:40
Romsterthe trashcan never worked and missing gvfs15:40
Romsterbe nice since it is a desktop15:40
leo-unglaubRomster, i disagree there15:40
leo-unglaubgvfs makes file operations 10% slower15:40
leo-unglaubi am acually very happy that it was shiped without gvfs in thunar15:41
Romsterdesktop environment... you have a file manager why not the trashcan?15:41
sepenhmm I should reproduce that problem but I cannot remember that happened to me15:41
leo-unglaubRomster, i am going to look into it15:41
leo-unglaubbut maybe we should actually have two ports, one gvfs verson and one without15:42
Romsterif not at least have the gvfs port there as an option install.15:42
Romsteror somewhere15:42
leo-unglaubbut i agree with you 100% that xfce should be 100% fool prove ...15:42
leo-unglaubso that a non technical person (girlfriend, mother, ...) can use it15:42
leo-unglaubbrb, need some food15:42
Romsterwell my girlfriend was using it and she is technical to a degree. more so with visual and windows but shes picked up ion linux and knows how to research,. hell she hleped me find the original issues she had and i went hunting for patches/fixes.15:43
Romsterbut this is on a older verison now.15:44
Romster patches15:44
leo-unglaubRomster, i still take care of it15:44
leo-unglaubsee you later15:44
Romsterwithout them xarchiver just ddin't work right.15:44
leo-unglaubyeah, xarchiver is ... not the best part of xfce415:45
Romstertell me about it upsteam ugh15:45
Romsterchat later :)15:45
sepensee ya'15:45
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Romsteroh and missing post-install files i added for geneating desktop and font caches etc... and gtk themes.15:46
Romsteroh what about the libunique that got bumeped and was broken for god knows how long?15:47
Romsterand mising patch file that wasn't commited to git.15:47
Romstercan't really blame tek on one clang port now.15:47
Romstergoing thought he port list has jogged my memory.15:48
Romsterthough the*15:48
Romsteranyways just be nice to have it working fully.15:49
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Romster some files are 404 not found.16:23
leo-unglaubRomster, big thanks16:24
leo-unglaubRomster, please give me a couple of hours to update some things and then run your tests again16:25
Romsteri'll do it later tomorrow no rush16:27
Romster distfiles i keep, also i am in the pool with but i arn't sure if anyone else in the distfile pool actually keeps files for xfce or mate or kde. but i decided too.16:37
leo-unglaubwell, we will see16:43
leo-unglaubone step at a time16:43
leo-unglaubmost important are the dependency bugs16:43
leo-unglaubbecause currently prt-get sysup is killing the system again16:43
Romsterwell there is prt-get update -fr `revdep` too.16:47
leo-unglaubRomster, but because you mantioned mate16:47
Romsterhaving a clean deptree does help though.16:47
leo-unglaubi am thinking of porting the mate pdf viewer to xfce .. and maybe also mate-archive16:47
leo-unglaubthey are just so much better than the xfce versions of it16:48
Romsteras long as it works on the xfce4 desktop i see no reason why not. what does sepen think of this?16:48
leo-unglaubRomster, i have not asked him, because this is far fr in the future16:49
leo-unglaubjust an idea16:49
leo-unglaubi will put that up on the mailinglist if the time comes16:49
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teK_so things are sorted out I guess17:23
teK_clang still compiling17:24
teK_temp1:        +83.0°C  (crit = +100.0°C)17:24
Romsterpretty high17:25
frinnstholy shit, is that on your 2600k?17:39
teK_it's the mobile i717:40
teK_should have to clean that out17:40
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teK_1.5h hours build time. clang/llvm is ready for your consideration :-)18:47
frinnstbtw you do know major llvm updates seems to break mesa3d-gallium drivers?18:57
frinnstthey did last time18:57
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teK_so I should fire up a message to the ML hinting the rebuild?19:17
teK_and no I didnt know that19:17
teK_there you go19:25
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frinnstactually seems mesa3d wont build with llvm 3.6 at all20:34
teK_come on20:34
diversefrinnst: did you rebuild clang?20:35
frinnstI dont use clang20:35
diverseoh I see, it actually uses the backend20:38
teK_so reverting it is20:43
frinnstnot yet20:43
frinnstthere's a patch in git20:43
teK_great that its not mentioned in the BR20:43
diverseah, so they made llvm a bit smarter and stricter in 3.620:43
diverseyeah, revert on it20:44
teK_mind testing the patch, frinnst?20:44
frinnstworking on it20:48
frinnstbuilding now20:48
teK_didnt find the commit20:48
teK_you are quick :)20:48
diverseI couldn't find it either20:49
jaegerit was listed in the bug report20:50
frinnstits in the second comment in the bz ticket20:50
jaegerand it builds with that diff applied on my ISO system20:50
teK_dont steal frinnst' thunder, jaeger20:50
jaegercan't test it from here, though20:50
frinnstit took some time to check out the mesa tree. I didnt cheat by using the web interface!20:51
jaegermuch faster via the web interface, heh20:52
diverseI actually like how github shows the first 7 or so commit digits for each commit20:52
frinnstworks for me, pushing20:53
diverseah, so it was an API change, they required to need a unique_ptr20:57
diverse*they are20:57
diverseprops on you frinnst :)20:58
jaegernow you can go and revert your FACE!21:00
jaegeror something21:00
diverseyeah yeah21:00
teK_busy binge watching something21:00
diverseHouse of Cards?21:00
teK_fuck aaall of you :D21:00
frinnstI just finished house of cards today21:00
teK_< E1221:01
teK_afking before you can spoil my experience21:01
frinnststraight after netflix suggested the original miniseries21:01
frinnstso now im watching that D;21:01
teK_< afk21:01
frinnstgeez, why are hd prices still so fucking high21:07
frinnstthai floods my ass21:07
diversehow expensive are they now?21:08
frinnstI bought 3 WD 2tb greens for about 750SEK a piece back in 201121:08
frinnstsame model today: 999SEK21:08
frinnstand just had a 1.5tb disk die today21:09
frinnstSeagate - ofcourse21:09
frinnstanother 2tb disk - also in my backup box - is also dying21:09
frinnstguess who built that disk?21:09
diversethe S monster21:10
jaegeryou can get 2tb WD Reds for ~867SEK if the currency converter thing is correct21:11
jaegerwell, assuming they're available for the same price there, which may not be the case21:11
diversedifferent sellers, different prices?21:12
frinnst1149SEK where im looking right now21:13
jaeger1149 at komplett, yeah21:14
diversehow expensive are the blacks or RE versions?21:14
frinnstmaybe importing from the US isnt such a bad idea21:16
frinnststill feels like a ripoff21:17
jaegerprobably not as bad as AU :)21:17
diversewow, considering 1SEK == 0.12 USD, definitely import21:17
diverseoh wait, do I have that the other way around21:18
jaegerno, that's about right21:19
jaegertranslates to about $138 for a 2tb red vs. ~$104 local21:19
diverseit is, but because the USD has less value for Sweden, frinnst has to pay more, so it was the the other way around21:19
diversefrinnst: ignore what I said, do what's practical. Hopefully the shipping costs aren't absurd.21:30
frinnstno, the dollar is cheapish at the moment22:04
frinnstwas lower a year or so back22:04
frinnstbut in the 00's it was like 10-12SEK22:04
teK_come on22:08
teK_what a shitty cliffhanger22:09
diversecliffhangers are always shitty, that's how they always pull you in to the next episode22:12
teK_I will have forgotten by 2016 (!)22:12
jaegerIt's ok, Game of Thrones comes back on soon22:12
jaegerthat'll help you forget22:12
teK_I was thinking that, too22:13
teK_Sansa and the Imp are going to help me through this hard time22:13
teK_still missing Ned Stark :\22:16
diverseI guess in this case, it's the "next season," that's the worst kind of cliffhanger ;)22:16
diversefrinnst: that's the thing, I didn't have the historical context of the exchange prices, so I wasn't reasonable.22:24
frinnstteK_: yeah, not as powerful as the fist-on-desk ending of s02 :)22:34
teK_I rewtched that one two days ago and dont remember22:35
teK_you mean the knocking22:35
frinnstthe original series is pretty great too22:43
frinnsttakes a while to get used to the 90s fashion but then its great22:44
teK_I watched Mad Men ;)22:44
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sepenteK_: ping23:11
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