IRC Logs for #crux Monday, 2006-08-14

maronice :)00:00
maroanything one can have a peek at?00:00
nipuLgive me a minte00:01
maroyou rock00:01
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nipuLthere's not much atm though00:10
marocertainly more than what have been seen from the "developers" ;)00:11
nipuLive also got an alternative pkgmk script00:12
nipuLthat removes #META00:12
nipuLevrything is a varaible00:12
maroah, ala arch?00:12
marocool :)00:12
nipuLalso modularised source collection, everification and extraction00:13
maroI've thought about dummy-functions for adding to the variables00:13
maroe.g. "depend glib"00:13
HanWould be nice if prt-get supported that as well.00:13
nipuLmaro: then it would start looking like portage00:14
maromy next project is a way to always build packages in a clean chroot with only base + specified dependencies installed00:14
maroto avoid autoconf link madness00:14
maronipuL: huh?00:15
nipuLebuilds use a lot of dummy functions00:15
marothat wasn't what I had in mind :)00:15
marothe -x'ed subshell in pkgmk was probably *the* thing that made me fale in love with crux :)00:16
marothe main advantage of having it as a function in addition to a variable is that it's easy to add various hooks (e.g. warn if not installed, or perhaps even build it - useful for the bootstrap target in the crux Makefile)00:26
maroplus it's easier to read when you have a 5+ dependencies :)00:26
marothey should obviously be called outside build()00:27
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nipuLhmm, now that i think about it, i might look into the whole dummy function idea a bit more00:38
nipuLalthough one of my goals is too keep things as seperate as possible00:43
maroobiously the hardcoded functions should be extremely dumb and minimal00:43
nipuLpkgmk should just make packages, etc00:43
marothat is, only add to $depends or something like that00:43
maroyeah, agreed00:43
maromore than half of pkgmk could be stripped away since there's prt-get now00:44
nipuLwhici is why i added the ability to use a set of files rather than justa  sngle pkgfile00:44
marohm, how many?00:45
maronipuL: have you though of a nice way to split the package filename into usable data?00:46
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Hanmorning cptn00:52
nipuLnot really00:52
nipuLwell actually00:53
cptnhey there00:53
nipuLit would be easy in python..00:53
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maronipuL: I know ;P01:02
Hancptn, how do you feel about putting the #meta tags in real variables?01:05
maroHan: AFAIR that's the plan01:06
cptnHan: sounds good to me01:06
Hanah, interesting.01:09
cptndoes mksh support arrays like this?01:10
HanNope. It's an extension to POSIX.01:10
HanYou know, the embrace and extend kind.01:10
HanThat's why I would like to propose to use mksh as the /bin/sh implementation.01:12
HanOnly a few changes have to be made to the current scripts.01:12
cptnmmmh, I kinda prefer the array syntax over string lists01:13
cptnalthough especially in uCRUX situations, avoiding the bash dependency would be a good thing01:14
HanI don't care at all about the array syntax, it's just an cosmetic advantgage.01:16
HanThe only advantage I can name is that you can add comments to arrays. Now that's important. :-)01:18
nipuLusing bashism's is annoying when you use the bin/sh shebang01:19
nipuLlike on bsd, /bin/sh is not symlinked to bash01:19
nipuLbut who cares, pkgutils is for linux ;P01:20
cptnwell, pkgutils don't use /bin/sh01:20
HanPeople should learn to write decent portable shellcode.01:20
Hanposix compliant etc. And mksh is the most portable, posix compliant shell around.01:21
HanAnd supports most features people want from a shell.01:21
Han*off to bed*01:23
cptngood night01:23
cptnor rather sleep well01:24
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pitilloholidays finished.... working another time :( I?ll take a look to the irc log and list to see what happen the last two weeks01:30
marocptn: that pkgattr utility seems amazingly close to dpkg-query01:43
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cptnmaro: oh... I don't dpkg at all01:46
cptnI mainly added that as a verification script01:46
cptnand then figured it could be useful :-)01:47
marochecking out the competition is probably a good idea :)01:48
maroto avoid wheel re-invention01:49
cptnI thought that was everyone did around here? :-)01:51
maronah, they take the wheel and comment out the footprints ;)01:52
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marono ideas on how to split package filenames into usable data?01:55
AidennMhm... could someone tell me why crux isn't parsing ~/.bashrc on login? (when i run /bin/bash by hand it does)01:55
cptncheck "man bash"01:56
cptnsearch for INVOCATION01:56
maroAidennM: because crux doesn't patch the hell out of it ;)01:56
cptnmaro: or maybe because there's no pre-filled home dir skeleton...01:57
cptnI just love it when I create a user on a different distro, log in, run ls -A and see 20 directories01:58
cptnincluding .kde and such01:58
marocptn: or /root/.gnome201:58
mike_ksome distros do source bashrc from profile or vice-versa01:58
maromike_k: that's pretty retarded01:58
marobut so is the bash default behaviour01:59
AidennMcptn: thanks and sorry for asking lame questions ;)01:59
cptnAidennM: no problem01:59
maroimo it should use bashrc *and* profile01:59
maroso you can keep your bashisms in bashrc and keep profile bourne compatible02:00
AidennMbtw, crux by default boots in ~20 secs on my P233MMX laptop w/o IDE DMA, whis is quite a feat ;)02:01
maroeven better,
maroI have no idea why rc does so much crap by default :(02:03
maroseems like a weird time to do depmod and ldconfig02:04
cptnyou don't ldconfig in minit02:04
maroof course not, it's stupid to do at boot time :)02:05
AidennMmaro: after i compile something to view these ;)02:05
cptnwell, it maybe wasn't before pkgadd ran ldconfig02:05
maronote that those graphs are with the new udev init script, the old one slept for 3 or 5 secs02:05
aonmaro: heh, compile something by hand, forget ldconfig, lock self out, boot, problem solved02:06
aonalthough this probably doesn't happen on crux02:06
AidennMbtw, how do i run rc.modules before rc.d? (lame question again ;)02:06
marowhy doesn't rc protect me from throwing my monitor on the floor too?02:06
aonhave you tried?02:07
aonit just might! :)02:07
marohm, true02:07
maroAidennM: that seems pretty reasonable to me02:07
maroAidennM: just edit /etc/rc02:07
marobut I think it sounds so sane that it should be the default behaviour :)02:08
cptnAidennM: it already is02:08
maro(if it isn't)02:08
cptn/etc/rc sources rc.modules02:08
cptnand rc.multi (which starts the services) is run after rc02:08
marocptn: speaking of it, how about rc.local before rc.d?02:08
marocheck e.g. opt/uptimed/README02:09
cptnmmmh, I wonder what other people do there02:10
marowith the size of start_udev it could probably be integrated to rc too :)02:10
marocptn: they just do it in the rc script02:10
marothe rc.d entry that is02:10
cptnyeah, I've read the readme02:10
AidennMcptn: then i don't know why net fails when run by rc.multi but succeds when i run it by hand after logging in :/ (it depends on a couple of modules)02:10
maroat least arch does IIRC02:10
cptnAidennM: there's a log file in /tmp02:11
cptnfor the service errors IIRC02:11
marocptn: aren't they removed?02:11
marocheck rc.multi02:11
cptnah, they are02:11
marobut they're fed to syslog first02:11
cptnbut only after being logged02:11
maroso check messages02:11
cptnAidennM: yep, check the messages :-)02:12
maroin /var/log that is02:12
* maro was being lazy02:12
AidennMlame me :D02:13
AidennMit's because pcmcia is after net, and my nic is pcmcia of course ;)02:13
AidennMno, wait, that's not it02:13
maronow you get to wear The Funny Hat for the rest of the day02:13
AidennMk, i deserve it02:14
AidennMbut the card gets initialised even w/o the pcmcia service02:14
AidennMonly 2 seconds too late ;)02:14
marocptn: how's the gcc/glibc schedule looking?02:14
cptnmaro: well, I'm still on glibc 2.302:15
cptnbut running gcc 4.1.1 for a while noe02:15
marousually distros tend to do the big changes early in the cycle so things can get testing before the release02:15
maroI've been using 2.4 since it was released (just around crux 2.2 IIRC)02:15
marohaven't had any problems other than those mentioned on the ml02:15
cptnyeah, it's just that there's no set release date02:15
cptnalso I was hoping to release 2.3 in autumn, things look a bit different than half a year ago :-/02:16
maroyeah, not much going on in svn other than php cosmetics02:17
mike_kany guess on the public wiki opening?02:19
cptnnot sure if it ever will02:19
cptnwe've been looking for someone to look after it for like three month02:21
cptn(from our team, that is)02:21
cptnand no one wants to do it02:21
marowriting php scripts and bumping package versions take up all the time ;-P02:22
mike_kkinda sad02:23
maroat least cptn is working on pkgutils :)02:24
cptnI haven't since may or so :-/02:24
marooh, what the heck, they do work pretty nicely now02:25
cptnwell, I guess summer didn't help02:26
cptnso there's some hope still :-)02:26
maroyeah, let's see what happens when the others are finished stalking chicks on the beaches02:27
cptnlet's hope they know the dating BASICS ;-)02:29
AidennMmount && fsck?02:29
AidennMmaro: meh, my desktop (Arch) boots in 14 secs with rc ;) (gqview compiled ;)02:36
cptn@seen jaeger02:36
clbcptn: jaeger was last seen in #crux 4 days, 12 hours, 28 minutes, and 39 seconds ago: <jaeger> don't know KDE, myself02:36
maro@seen clb02:37
clbmaro: I have not seen clb.02:37
maroidiot bot02:37
tilmancptn, maro: are you guys using gcc 4.1.1 in "production"?02:39
pitilloummmm no irc logged the last two weeks.... :(02:39
marotilman: what do you mean with that?02:39
tilmani'd like to try it, but i'm afraid of updating :]02:39
marotilman: I've been using it on my ws since it 4.1.0 went out02:39
tilmanthat's what i mean ;)02:39
maroI reported my experience to the ml :)02:40
marocrux-devel IIRC02:40
marosince that I've only experienced 2 packages that wouldn't compile (and there's probably patches available for them by now)02:41
tilmandid you also recompile glibc and binutils?02:41
maroboth were giant C++ game engines02:41
marowhenever I do a toolchain update, I rebuild all packages :)02:41
tilmani'll prolly try it tonight then02:42
Romsterpre-remove. post-remove... wtf i was thinking of that yesrerday...02:43
marotilman: remember to rebuild libtool just after gcc02:43
cptntilman: yes02:45
cptn$ ls -l /home/jw/build/upload/gcc/Pkgfile02:47
cptn-rw-r--r-- 1 jw users 1418 May 25 11:40 /home/jw/build/upload/gcc/Pkgfile02:47
cptnI've been using it ever since :-)02:47
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maroyou know pkgrm warns when a directory isn't removed because it isn't empty?03:32
MukundaAnyone got a copy of pkgutils they could send me? The site seems to be down.03:33
maropkgadd -u doesn't (when the directory is gone in the new version of the package)03:33
MukundaYes, I'm trying that.03:34
MukundaCan't reach it.03:34
cptnMukunda: are you _sure_?03:34
MukundaOh there it is.03:34
cptnMukunda: the server name changed recently03:34
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MukundaAhh okay.03:34
cptnand it seems the old one was disabled last weekend03:34
MukundaYeah, the google link didn't work nor the handbook link.03:34
MukundaThank you.03:34
cptnno problem03:35
MukundaOh hmm no configure script.03:35
MukundaWell thanks anyway.03:35
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MukundaI just want to build a package first to test it, how do I do that? Doesn't seem to be pkgadd, or perhaps I just need to place the package scripts in the right place?03:40
cptnpkgmk expects the Pkgfile to be in the current working directory03:41
MukundaAhh thanks, just what I wanted.03:41
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darkowl_Is anyone here ?07:49
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darkowl_I just waned to ask you if i can download from somewhere only crux base system without x ?07:50
treachbut it doesn't matter.07:51
treachor rather, I guess it would only matter if you are on modem.07:51
rxihehe poor bastard07:52
treachbut it's still manageble I guess, it's just 230MB or something. Ie. smaller than one of those service-packs for windows....07:53
tilmancptn: is there a good reason why we build gcc with obj-c support, btw?07:53
treachor, rather, approximately the same size.07:53
rximost people on dialup dont worry about service packs tho :)07:53
treachservice packs are *always* a worry.07:54
treacheither because you've got them, or because you haven't...07:54
rxiyeah .. xp sp2 was ok07:54 - means adsl?07:55
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mike_kInternet TLD .hr - is Croatia07:58
mike_kwhich is even worse in terms of IT-TEC than exUSSR07:59
treachYou know what?07:59
treachI BET that depends on where you are..07:59
mike_k*in general* =)07:59
mike_kand I BET it is not a fair unlimit rate08:00
mike_kand costs a lot08:00
* treach pays ~30€/mont for 100/10Mbit :)08:01
* rxi grumbles at you damn europeans08:01
darkowl_<treach> its not because of the size of download, its just that i dont use x so its just taking up space...08:01
treachdarkowl_: you don't have to install it..08:02
* AidennM is from Europe and pay approx 40EUR/month for 2Mbit :p08:02
treachdarkowl_: just don't select it during the setup.08:02
darkowl_<treach> so i can choose the packages to install and not install x ?08:02
AidennMdarkowl_: that's the way it works ;-)08:02
* mike_k feels himself bad: $20/m for only 700MB on 512k + for evry MB over that08:03
mike_k$200 sallary08:03
rxiyay someone else pays exorbatant fee's like us08:04
AidennMOMG, that's, like, worse than in my third world country of Poland. :/08:04
treachrxi:  yay for monopolies, right. ;)08:04
* AidennM suddenly doesn't feel that third world at all.08:04
rxitreach: lol .. its the fact that australia is half the size of europe and 1/100th the population :)08:05
mike_kAidennM: ukraine08:05
treachrxi: I know, but Telstra is hardly helping matters afik. :)08:05
treachat least judging from the news sippering this way from "down under"08:06
rxitreach: oh of course not .. if this was the 7th century we would have burnt the telstra building to the ground by now :)08:06
treachOr if it was located in France. :D08:06
Romster < I want that keyboard :P08:09
rxiyeah thats been out for a while now .. dont think its that cheap tho08:10
Romsteryeah i think it was a cost of a average mobile phone08:11
treachbah. Only wussies look at the keyboard anyway. :p08:11
Romsteri'll have to investigate that08:11
Romsteri want a matching mouse too :P08:11
AidennMmike_k: I sympathise with you, given all these recent disturbances in your government and constant tension.08:11
rxilol .. *chances treach's layout to dvorak* :P08:11
darkowl_does crux have fb enabled in console ?08:11
Romsterit'll be good for gamming08:11
Romsterdarkowl_, you have to add that in the kernel08:12
AidennMdarkowl_: it doesn't even come with precompiled kernel ;-)08:12
treachRomster: no it wouldn't..08:12
Romsterwhen you get to that08:12
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treachyou don't have time to look at the keyboard when you're gaming.08:12
rxiand i doubt there will be linux support out of the box08:12
RomsterAidennM, could cheat and use the one off the cd but i've never tryed that08:12
rxitreach: maybe thats why Romster sucks so much :P08:13
darkowl_<Romster> <AidennM> so i have to recompile my kernel ?08:13
mike_kAidennM: thanks, but it's still so unstable here... We are far from the Poland's status in EU08:13
Romsterheh then what use is the keyboard then..08:13
treachrxi: quite likely.08:13
Romstermaybe jsut the wow factor08:13
* Romster slaps rxi 08:13
Romsteroh shuddup about my crap typing. :P08:13
treach"shut up"08:14
Romsterat least i do stuff around here :)08:14
rxihehe .. shuddup is a word .. kind os08:14
treachor maybe that should be sjutt upp?08:14
Romsteri did that shuddup on pourpose08:14
Romsterman do i have to install a spell checker on irc jsut to please you lot.08:15
treachwelcome to another lesson in "approximate english"08:15
rxitreach: we are aussies .. we just blend all the words in the sentence together :P08:15
* Romster mumbles and goes off to build more ports08:15
treachRomster:  why? we don't have any such thing.. :o08:15
AidennMdarkowl_: yes, you can have your favourite patchset and kernel version ready before installing if you like, there are only sources for vanilla on the cd.08:15
treachbut if you're smart you just load the network drivers and download more recent stuff before starting to build your kernel..08:16
AidennMtreach: you can't if you have pcmcia nic like I do, 'cause there are no pcmcia modules on the cd ;)08:16
Romsteruse ketchup :P08:17
rxior just let the kernel compile while your configuring everything08:17
treachAidennM: Oh, that would be an inpediment I guess.08:17
rxilol .. good work officer treach08:18
rxihehe spelling police08:18
treachah. :-)08:18
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treachmixing up "in" and "im" is a common mistake.08:19
treachand I can hardly be careless myself after nearly tearing off Romster's ears. :p08:20
Romstertearing off my ears, yeah right08:23
treachyou mean I and tilman did't grab you by your ears the other night and pretty much had you dangling between us? :>08:25
rxilol .. tilman and i08:25
rxii and tilman isnt right08:26
treach"I and tilman" or "tilman and I", would you care to explain the difference?08:26
rxithe latter is the correct grammar in english08:26
cptntilman: no idea; "important enough" in Per's eyes I guess08:27
treachrxi:  I doubt that matters at all, since the only difference it's just in which order we get mentioned.08:28
cptntilman: at least the opposite was the reasons for not including fortran08:28
rxitreach: im just going from what i was taught at school08:29
treachcptn: could it be that objc is a newcomer to gcc and per just forgot/didn't know to pick it out? (Wild guess)08:29
treachrxi: ok.08:29
cptntreach: well, it's explicitely enabled via configure08:30
cptn --enable-languages=c,c++,objc08:30
treachok. that would put a hole in that theory, wouldn't it? :-)08:31
rxior it was enabled for something that isnt used anymore and hasnt been disabled?08:31
treachmaybe per uses something related to gnustep?08:31
mike_kor it's so brilliant, and we'll miss it08:31
rxii think that was suggested08:32
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cptnmaybe objc support could be moved to a separate port, much like contrib/gcc-fortran08:42
treachIs there anything, reasonably popular, out there that uses it, execept gnustep?08:44
AidennMcocoa for macosx afaik08:45
treachyes. And how applicable to crux is that?08:45
AidennMwell, you can take a cocoa screenshot and use it as a wallpaper ;-)08:45
treachmh. I fail to see how that would force me to use a objc capable version of gcc.08:46
bd2I'm using that Pkgfile for a while:  It have one more advance: it is twice less to download when upgrading (using only gcc-core and gcc-g++)08:47
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Romstertilman and I, never say I first in that context, least i know a few things..09:13
treachso? A and B != B and A ?09:14
nipuLit is but isn't09:15
nipuLit's like saying "me run good"09:15
treachI see absolutely no sense whatsoever in that rule. But if it *is* a rule, it's one I've never heard of.09:16
nipuLsince when did english grammar have to make sense?09:17
treachGood question.09:18
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qid"I and tilman" just sounds wrong, although that may only be the case if english is your first language09:20
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treachqid: indeed. It doesn't matter att all in swedish for instance. (Which happens to be my native language.)09:23
Romsterin english (australian) i was always tought to use , example "foo, bar and I, are gouing out", that is the correct grammer09:25
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treachOk, if you say so. I guess it's a case of me speaking swedish in english then. :-)09:26
qidof course there are also screwy things in other languages that don't make sense to an english speaker09:26
qide.g. in french things like tables and chairs have gender and you have to use le or la appropriately09:26
treach.. bah. try german..09:27
qidlast time I checked my table didn't have sex organs, so to me that seems a little silly09:27
Romsterbut not correct spelling yikes o.o09:29
Romstertables and chars have gender, wtf09:30
Romsterthats screwie!09:30
nipuLheh, i'm with treach, german grammer is a harsh mistress09:30
Romsterthere objects not fauna.09:31
treachnipuL:  A linguistic domina.. :p09:31
treachrules, rules, and more rules.09:31
Romsterhrmmz i could of sware there was no libsvg yesterday when i looked on the crux ports list... now there is, and i've already made a port of it ffs09:32
treachlibsvg has been in the ports for a long time.09:32
treachiirc it's needed by both gnome and the gimp.09:33
Romsterthen why didn't i see it09:33
Romsteri typed svg on the ports search and it said 0 results yesterday09:33
treachbecause you didn't look close enough..09:33
treachor maybe it was on vacation yesterday, wtf do I know?09:34
Romsteri've already added one to sync to contrib...09:34
Romstermaybe i was jsut too tired i dunno09:34
Romsterport duplication is such a pain. we need one repo...09:35
treachno we don't. there is a whole host of reasons why that would be a bad idea, at least imo.09:36
Romsterwell its on the wiki09:36
treachIt is? :-/09:36
Romsterlet me get the link09:37
nipuLthe more repos the better i say09:37
treachMatt did a good thing when he isolated gnome.09:39
nipuLhaving one person soley responsible for a port isnt really a good idea09:39
cptnalthough that's not an excuse for duplication09:39
cptni.e. of someones too lazy to check portdb09:39
treachno, but there is nothing that says per se that the rule is one person/repo..09:40
treachthat was meant for nipuL09:40
treachat least afik.09:40
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Romstergrr dunno where i read it but i read that opt will be merged with contrib and not sure on user ports, but i read something of them all been sorted and thrown in contrib.09:42
treachcptn: IMO, that depends on what you mean with duplication.09:42
Romstersome of the gnome ports are out of date.09:42
cptntreach: well, for example 'contrib' has a gcc-fortran port09:42
treachTwo ports of the same stuff with vastly different dependencies aren't really dups imo.09:42
cptntreach: yet someone provides a port called 'gcc' which is just regular 4.0.3 with fortran enabled09:42
Romsterwhy should there be 2 sets of dupes..09:43
treachcptn: Ok I get it.09:43
cptnor Romster maintains a port called gcc4, which actually conflicts with core/gcc (file-wise)09:43
Romsterbut i made it gcc409:43
Romsternot gcc :)09:43
cptnwhile there was a gcc replacement (4.1.1) forever09:43
cptnRomster: which is part of the badness09:43
cptnRomster: it can't coexist with gcc09:43
Romsterhrmm i was thinking of removing that09:44
Romsterand jsut keep it local on my pc09:44
treach yay, this is actually a bit comic..09:44
cptntreach: Han once said that it's easier to create a port than to browse portdb :-)09:44
treachcptn: the woes of simplicity. :)09:44
cptntreach: unfortunately, some maintainers take that to the extreme :-)09:45
treachI can see that.09:45
cptnyhafri: 25609:45
Romsterreally the 2x at the end sould be removed if one is in either opt or contrib.09:45
treachDoes anyone really need 8 ports of sqlite3? :D09:45
cptnRomster: then do it09:45
cptnit would be plain wrong though09:46
Romsteri jsut noticed that09:46
Romsterwht a waste of maintaining it prologics repo is the only one that syncs it to contrib...09:46
Romsterif others where already in contrib we'd have less duplication or we have to haev everyones repo which is icky09:47
cptnIMHO we'd need someone to act as a "mediator"09:48
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cptnlooking at dups, and talking to maintainers about merging changes into one09:48
treachI don't think that would help. :/09:48
Romsteronly reasion i make some ports is because there not in contrib..., maybe i should ask others to sync to contrib, but i hardly know anyoen thats got contrib access09:48
cptnand potentially to contrib09:48
Romsterand can someone fix the sox trying to get into contrib problem too please.09:48
Romsterwe ned a set of what we want in and out of a port, and difereances could be local diff files, if someoen wants a certain feature thats not in contrib. and with the posability of merging the diff if its a good reason todo so, or we are jsut gonna have more and more dupes, i'm not going to have 100 or more repos jsut to get each port i'm after.09:50
Romsteri could do the port to fetch set ports from each repos, maybe.09:51
Romsteri have thought of that one.09:51
treachI guess the core of the problem is that is so damned easy to make a port when you need one, but if you want others to use it without duplications, "someone" will have to maintain it.09:51
cptnkinda like USE flags?09:51
Romsterif anyone has a better idea i'd like to know about it :)09:51
cptnname the patch imap.patch, "USE=imap pkgmk"09:51
Romsterhrmm thats a interesting idea09:52
treachmuch easier to just make a port and toss it out if someone wants to use it, they are welcome. -> dups all over the place.09:52
prologicis the global alsa config file /etc/asoundrc ?09:52
cptnRomster: there's a distro which does that for you already09:52
cptnRomster: it's called gentoo09:52
Romsteri'm not familer with gentoo09:53
cptnit sounds like you might like it09:53
Romstercore, red hat, mandrake, debian, is about all i've used.09:53
cptnit offers maximal flexibility without having to hack Pkgfile (alikes) yourself09:54
cptnUSE=kde emerge licq09:54
RomsterI like crux but i'm anoyed about the ports dups and not easily to get.09:54
cptnbuilds licq with kde support09:54
treachRomster: And before that you had never used neither of them.09:54
Romsterhrmm so them settings get stored on the local pc..09:55
cptnyes, you can set those flags permanently09:55
cptnand the build files take care of the variants09:55
Romsterthat maybe keeping the kiss principal but wouldn't that add heaps of complexity to Pkgfiles?09:55
treachthat's why it's called ebuilds.09:56
treachand a plauge of the earth.09:56
cptnyes, crux has a completely different approach09:56
cptnmake it easy to change for everyone, so those who have to can do that09:56
Romsterand i'm gathering we don't want that setup for crux..09:56
AidennMgentoo is nice but adds way too much overhead to simple tasks ;)09:56
cptnwhile gentoo is more like "no need to touch in general, but if you want to you the learning curve is steep(er)"09:56
Romsterwe need something simple09:56
AidennMcrux is simple09:57
AidennMand nice too ;)09:57
cptnyes, it already is09:57
Romsterbut better than the current ports system its total mess09:57
cptnwell, feel free to do it better then09:57
Romsterits a*09:57
cptn"it's a" actually09:57
prologicRomster, the current ports system is just fine10:00
prologicit works and is very clear about how it works10:00
prologicopt/core are maintained by the clc10:00
prologiccontrib are maintained collaborateily (as intended)10:00
treachmaybe you're suffering from too much information. If people wouldn't have publicised their ports, you'd have used the ones in {core,opt,contrib} and created ports for the rest of the stuff you need.10:01
treachyou'd never have known about the dups, and thus the mess had never existed. :-)10:02
prologicI have to agree10:02
cptnwe can password protect portdb if that helps :-)10:02
prologicbloody good idea10:03
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treachthe point is that unless ports are *known* to actually be maintained (which usually translatest to "put into the 'official' repos", they might just as well not exist.10:06
treachI think it boils down to an issue of trust.10:07
prologicI prefer to call those other repos 3rd-party repos for that reason10:07
cptnalso it looks like at least some of the repos don't even sync anymore10:07
cptnjolupa for example10:08
treach"Is this port going to be here tomorrow, and will it work?" And everyone trusts themself more than anyone else, so...10:08
cptnso it's just a source of dups...10:08
cptnyet it may be better if someone wants to pick up a port from his repo10:08
cptnit's just easier to start with an existing one10:08
treachbut that wasn't my point.10:08
treachthe point was that it's futile to try stopping all these dups.10:09
treachmaybe I should have put that as "seeing them as a problem" or something. Hopefully the geist got through anyway.10:10
cptnyeah, I rather wanted to add that, independently from your statement10:11
maroyou *both* suck10:11
marocptn: seen the latest "minor bug fixes" in udev? :D10:12
AidennMby the way, has there ever been someone serving not only Pkgbuilds, but also actual binaries? (not counting the ones on the release cd)10:12
cptnmmmh no, I don't follow udev development so far10:13
cptnwhat is it?10:13
maroapparently it's a minor bug fix to remove klibc support (at least that was the only thing the changelog said)10:13
treachAidennM: I think that project is called "arch linux"10:13
cptnAidennM: traditionally, crux was a weak dependency model to allow to omit dependencies10:13
treachor, why not just "debian" or "ubuntu". ;-)10:13
cptnAidennM: this doesn't work out with binaries10:14
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AidennMtreach: I know, I have Arch on my desktop, but it's i686 only, and my laptop is i586. and Debian and Ubuntu are waaaaaay too bloated. I used slackware before crux, but i didn't like recent changes to -current (like the new udev script) went distro hunting and two days ago ended with crux :)10:16
treachwelcome onboard then.10:16
AidennMthanks, I really like it here :)10:16
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maroAidennM: arch is getting as bloated as debian10:17
maroonly without the correctness, integration and manpower10:17
cptnAidennM: there are two tools though to setup binary repos10:17
Romster<Romster> heh10:18
Romster<Romster> i'm not saying i can do it better, but surely there is a easy solution to this, or we ditch contrib and opt all together and keep all seperate repos. and ports that require ports that another repo has can be set to use that repo by Depends on: repo.port,10:18
Romster<Romster> i dunno10:18
cptnAidennM: which make sense i.e. for a local farm of crux installations10:18
Romster<Romster> your the experts here i'm just a single user thats trying to port stuff i want to use, and have programs setup so i can then convert some peoples computers here over to linux, and have all the programs they require already ready.10:18
Romster<Romster> how about a poll on the wiki site?10:18
Romster* Romster goes to make a coffee10:18
Romster<Romster> I probally bug the crap out of you here, if so just tell me to bug off :)10:18
Romster<Romster> .10:18
Romster<Romster> em i on?10:18
Romster<Romster> damn firewall pc is anoying its got a hardware fault i think10:18
Romster* Disconnected10:18
Romstershitty firewall pc i think its got shitty ram10:18
treachRomster: wtf are you on?10:18
cptnRomster: the point is that we're fine with the current situation10:18
AidennMmaro, nah, it's still faster, boots fast enough and is simple enough.10:18
cptnRomster: if you want it changed, go implement an alternative10:19
cptnRomster: and maybe the users with switch to your setup10:19
Romsterbut i'm about to rip open that firewall pc to fix the mudder**&^^, as its getting anoying, it says kernel panic failed to sync in irq10:19
AidennMcptn, looks like i'll have to use my desktop for compiling sometimes then, for example i'm compiling qt3 now and it's been on for over 2 hours now.10:19
treachon a i586?10:20
treachIt will take days..10:20
cptnAidennM: yeah, Qt takes a while10:20
AidennMyeah, for Opera ;)10:20
cptnthere's a static opera too :-)10:20
maroAidennM: you can use opera-static temporarily10:20
treachget the static version instead..10:20
AidennM... and for future qt apps I might use. though primarily for Opera.10:21
marohence "temporarily"10:21
Romsterbugger it i'll jsut put all local ports that aren't in contrib, opt into the repo as local and ignore the duplicates rule..10:21
treachthere aren't many.10:21
Romsteri'll be back later getting mad at my firewall pc10:21
treachmost qt stuff tends to be kde-related as well.10:21
Romstergonna do a memory check10:21
maroand our qt port is a mess10:22
treachnot something you'd like to put on a ram-starved pentium class slouch..10:22
cptnmaro: how so?10:22
maroit has its RPATH set to the build dir :/10:22
cptnyou mean the Pkgfile?10:22
AidennMtreach: my friend had a Gentoo once on a P133. and yes, he did compile X11. :D10:22
marocptn: nope, the build result10:22
treachyes. but X11 != qt..10:22
AidennMtreach: I'm referring to compile time.10:23
treachx11 is quite a bit faster to build in my experience.10:23
maroyeah, it's not C++ ;)10:23
treachAidennM: How much ram does the sucker have?10:24
AidennMif I'd ctrl+c the compilation, would pkgmk resume it later?10:24
maroAidennM: you should probably consider using ccache on that box10:25
cptns/on that box// :-)10:25
marotrue :)10:25
AidennMtreach, whopping 96MB. actually 160, but the bios sees only half of added 128 (incompatible sticks, I have to replace them some day), and 32 is built-in.10:26
treachhm. that's interesting, what does free tell you?10:27
cptnmaro: okay, I'll try to build a fixed version lated on10:27
marocptn: of qt?10:27
treach(usually bios isn't all that relevant.)10:27
cptnmaro: yeah10:27
marocool :)10:27
cptnseems easy enough :-)10:28
AidennMtreach: after boot 6mb is used, and now about 49 (at one point of compilation however it used all of it and 100MB of swap for a couple of minutes)10:28
treachI was refering to the total amount available.10:29
AidennMtreach: oh, you're asking about total? 96, like I said.10:29
AidennMor maybe the mainboard itself is incompatible, dunno. I know that I *can* insert 2x64, but somehow te ones I did insert are halved ;)10:30
treachAidennM:  For instance, you can have a hdd that is bigger than what the bios will see, linux will use it anyway. I was kind of curious whether the same was true about ram.10:30
prologicanyone know what the global alsa config file is ?10:37
prologicI thought it was /etc/asoundrc but it appears not10:37
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maroprologic: /etc/asound.state?10:39
prologicis it ?10:39
marothe where you dump your settings10:40
prologicwell I want to create a global pcm device10:40
prologicfor ch51dup10:40
marotoo advanced for me :)10:40
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cptnmaro: okay, the build seems okay :-)10:47
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cptnat least the path is not visible in 'strings libqt...' anymore10:50
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RyoSanyone ever had that problem, that when he changed lilo.conf (+ updated lilo ofcourse) that crux wont boot anymore12:07
RyoSi am not getting an login shell right now, which drives me insane as i want to get in..12:07
RyoSi already bootet via livecd, restored the old lilo.conf, rebuild the kernel etc.12:07
RyoSbut it still wont work12:08
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tilmancontrib/mp3splt doesn't build12:10
tilmanshould i file a bug?12:10
tilmanit's a han-port, so he'll ignore it anyway i think12:10
mike_ktilman: doubt, this will result in a highlight in someone's irc client12:15
treachRyoS: what's the errormessage?12:21
treachhehe, the Han-port, to accompany the Ming-vase?12:22
tilmansame same, except the ming-vase is easier to deal with12:22
tilmanboth need to be handled with extreme care though12:22
tilmani'm content with that joke12:23
treachit's a good one. :-)12:23
tilmanthanks for the preparation ;)12:23
treachno problem. :)12:24
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RyoStreach: there is no error message..12:28
RyoSi commented append="quiet"12:28
RyoSeverything runs fine12:28
* mike_k is just curious: I saw upcoming wiki's maintainer's mail, looked at their web site... and saw apache/php/mysql man - jue there, among the founders... 12:28
RyoSit starts net + crond12:28
RyoSbut not the login shell12:28
treachRyoS: then the problem isn't lilo12:29
RyoSwhat could it be then?12:29
treachsomething else you did12:29
RyoSfilesystem seems ok as i can read all the files12:29
RyoSi did nothing with the system..12:29
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treachwell. *Something* went wrong, right?12:30
AidennMok, so it happened, i accidentally pulled the plug while compiling qt3 :D12:30
treachand that something isn't lilo.12:30
treach \o/12:30
RyoSwell... any ideas what i could do to debug the problem and to solve it?12:31
treachdoes the shell exist?12:31
AidennMi compiled the rest manually (it resumed nicely), and now a question - is there a way to resume Pkgbuild from a point without pkgmk deleting work? ;)12:31
treachdoes your user have it listed as his shell? etc etc12:31
treachdid you compile everything needed into your kernel?12:31
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treachare you sure this isn't something related to udev/tty stuff?12:32
tilmanmike_k: aaah, that's why "dbaudio" sounded familiar!12:32
RyoSsince i added line 8,9,10,17,19,20 it doesnt work anymore12:32
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RyoSbut i updated lilo, of course, i can boot windows12:33
RyoSi am sure12:33
RyoSi have done nothing else to the system12:33
RyoSbut edited the lilo.conf..12:33
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mike_ktilman: so, it is not an accident match =)12:33
tilman"building and maintaining speakers is a serious matter." ;)12:34
treachRyoS: well, well..12:34
treachwere is your windows installation?12:34
RyoSit ran before, just that i always switched the bios to boot it instead of /dev/hda12:34
Romsterthriffle small specs and tuning a speaker box is a serious business. :)12:35
mike_ktilman: "Detlef Keller and Jürgen Hinderer at work"12:35
Romsteri do audio work12:35
RomsterRyoS,  got more than one kernel image to boot from?12:35
tilmani hope you're better at that than you're at typing12:35
mike_kbut history page and one else lists Jue12:35
RyoSRomster: no :/12:35
treachRyoS: ok, I'm sorry, but it looks allright to me. But I haven't dualbooted for ages.12:35
RyoSbut it cant be the kernel.. i rebuild it12:36
Romsterbloody oth, i also sound mix for live bands in pubs etc.12:36
Romstermy typing and spelling is lacking but i make up in audio and electronics12:36
treachtoo bad your skills in electronics and audio doesn't make you any easier to understand. :->12:37
RyoSmh :/12:37
Romsterlol no12:37
Romsteroh well12:37
RomsterRyoS, pastebin the lilo.conf :)12:39
treachhe allredy did.12:39
Romsteryou didn't redo the tool chain by anychance b4 you redid the kernel and did you make clean first?12:40
Romsterah lol12:40
Romsterdidn't see i was offline12:40
RyoSi did make clean12:40
RyoSmake all; make modules_install etc..12:40
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Romsterhmmz that shoud work12:42
Romsterwhat version of lilo you got recent core one?12:42
RyoSrecent + downgraded to the one from 2.2 install cd12:43
treachif lilo wasn't working he wouldn't get as far as to the initialization of the user's shell.12:43
RyoSi just need the shell...12:43
RyoSi have no clue why the heck its not working12:44
Romsterthen it must be something after lilo?12:44
Romsterwhat did you do jsut alter lilo.conf and nothing else? then recompiled the kernel?12:44
Hantreach, I'm missing context. What port?12:44
RyoSnothing else12:44
RyoSrecompiling the kernel was a dumb try to fix the shell problem..12:44
HanRyoS, you updated udev, didn't you?12:45
RyoSi have no clue12:45
treachHan: tilman said contrib/mp3splt didn't build12:45
RyoSpossible that i did a sysup, but that would be 2-3 days ago..12:45
RyoSso what would i want to do now if it would be udev?12:46
treachRyoS: rejmerge12:46
treachI guess that's your problem. :)12:47
RyoS? oO12:47
RyoSsorry, i dont get it..12:47
Romsterrofl you haven't rejmerge?12:47
Romsteroh gawd12:47
treachYou don't know what rejmerge is. That's why you have problems.12:47
Romstersudo rejmerge12:47
treachman rejmerge12:47
Romsterpfft i never read that :P12:48
Romstermerge, copy, edit etc.12:48
treachdon't ever use tools you don't know what they do..12:48
Romsteror keep12:48
Romsterthink that was all the options12:48
Romsteri knew it merged config files b4 iran it :)12:48
treachok. let me add "..or *how* they do it." to that then.12:50
treachthings don't always work as you expect, and expecting to always have a way back is really naïve.12:50
RyoSokay.. wait12:51
RyoSwhat would i want to do now12:51
RyoSboot the install cd, chroot into my install12:51
RyoSrun rejmerge12:51
RyoSor not?12:51
treachyes. but rtfm first.12:51
RyoSi will test it out12:52
cptnmike_k: it looks like the public wiki could become reality after all :-)12:53
triwhat is the right way to do wlan config in crux ?12:53
cptnit depends on your setup12:54
cptnif it's wlan only, you can do it in /etc/rc.d/net12:54
cptnif you're both wired and wireless, some separation could be handy12:54
trii have both12:55
Romstertreach, thats why i backup my files :)12:55
trii am thinking about switching from gentoo to crux under gentoo there is a /etc/wiress config file12:55
mike_kcptn: I've noticed, one more man from loudspeaker industry \o/12:55
treachRomster: *sometimes* it's just easier to rtfm. :-)12:56
treachIt must be quite cumbersome to make backups every time you try a new tool.. :p12:57
Romsterand when i wanted a man page man 8 dump, dosn't exist!!12:57
Romsteri do read the manual when needed12:57
Romstergod damn you treach :P~12:57
qidi.e. after you break your computer12:58
Romsteri arn't that stupid yeash12:58
Romsterwhy is everyone pickign on me lol12:58
treach:D :D12:58
treachyou need to read the manual to break your computer? :D12:59
mike_kcptn: a core port of 'wireless-tools' might have an rc script...12:59
cptnmmmh, wifi configs tend to diverge quite a bit13:00
cptndifferent encryption, device names etc13:00
mike_ktri: you are free to make a simple '/etc/rc.d/wireless' similar to those 'net'13:00
Romsteri don't break computers i fix them..13:00
cptnI'd expect a template file would have lots of commented lines :-)13:01
mike_kcptn: yeah, commented... but it will be there13:01
cptnyet it'll either be just as plain as rc.d/net, or well document external, driver specific information in there13:03
cptnwhich I don't think we can maintain13:03
cptnI'd rather see specific hints and links in our wiki13:04
mike_ka plain file with a few commented and essential lines would be nice...13:04
mike_kok, wait till wiki will be up13:05
cptnit's just a compromise:13:05
cptnif we build it using wpa_supplicant, some cards won't work13:05
cptnif we omit it, we have an insecure default13:05
cptnif people know how to configure their nic, adding that to /etc/rc.d/net is really easy13:06
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RyoSthanks for the rejmerge tip...13:06
RyoSit did the job13:07
RyoSi love you guys13:07
mike_khm, and leaving only commented lines is not good? I mean having a file seems better than creating such in rc.d... It's all about taste, but we have insanely commented fstab =)13:07
cptnyeah, that's true13:07
cptnwell, it's just that it'll be blocks, not lines13:07
cptnI mean, if you have any random 10/100/1000 MBit NIC, the ifconfig (ip) calls will work13:08
cptnbut that's not true for wlan13:08
cptncalling order, iwpriv calls13:08
cptnI just don't think we can create an example config which isn't confusing13:09
cptnunless we write a book :-13:09
mike_kcptn: yes, my card can't handle wap at the point13:09
mike_kI just don't like by-hand(out of the port) creation of files in rc.d13:11
mike_kforget about it13:11
cptnI personally create net.<ifname> nowadays13:11
cptnto allow udev to start them up automatically13:11
cptnbut it just seems kinda overkill to suggest that as default setup13:11
mike_kand I allready have rc.d/wireless13:12
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j^2hey all18:04
j^2irc on your tv is 1337 :P18:05
j^ one to talk to though :(18:05
prologicwait :)18:08
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r2d2_If you can irc on your tv then so will i :)18:09
r2d2_too bad I can't read anything though :/18:09
DaViruzif you can irc on your tv without a computer attached i might get impressed :)18:09
DaViruzmost modern tvs probably have the processor power to run a irc-client on the osd18:11
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Hangrrr pkgadd sometimes forgets to install files20:38
Hantilman, xorg-server misses the libdrm dependency20:55
Hanoh, my bad. depends by mesa3d which I don't have because of nvidia20:57
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HanFor people interested, I made xorg-nvidia, the nvidia driver port for xorg21:57
Hannow my idsoftware stuff works properly again. :-)22:05
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HanSome odd stuff with font-rendering though22:06
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prologicWould a NetGear 54Mbps wireless pci adapter most likely be a pcmcia device and not show up in lspci ?23:40
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