IRC Logs for #crux Friday, 2006-09-01

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mike_kHan: any reason to keep an old p5-mime-tools release?
Hanmike_k, why formulate rhetorically?03:15
mike_kcos I am scared =)03:15
HanJust say `Han, I spotted a new MIME-tools release.'03:15
cptnalso, there often _are_ reasons to keep a slightly older version03:16
mike_kHan: ok, but your reputation and '2001 release date confused me.03:17
mike_ksorry, didn't want to disturb you03:17
Hancptn, yes, such as it's impossible to keep them all up to date ;-)03:17
cptnhat's a good one too :-)03:18
cptnI was thinking of "not breaking dependent packages" ;-)03:18
Hannot for perl-stuff.03:18
Hanalright, synced.03:20
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pitillohi good morning, is there a package with pkgutils source?04:54
mike_kits a closed source, and it costs around $$$$ to see a single  header file =)05:00
mike_kpitillo: /usr/ports/core/pkgutils/05:00
pitillomike_k, thanks :)05:01
cptnwell, the port just downloads a handful of dwarfs which then create the pkgutils package using pure imagination05:02
cptnluckily, their imagination is limited, so the results are mostly the same05:02
rxi_thats a worry cos dwarves are very unimaginative05:02
cptnone day, they were really drunk, and created rpm05:03
cptnbut that was long time ago05:03
treachI always thought rpm was the work of Sauron.. "One package management system to rule them all, and in darkness bind them!"05:05
cptndon't start any rumours here05:05
treachok. :)05:06
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pitillowining points to be ignored... sorry, but I meet CRUX in 2.1 version. Need to be more familiar with it and think in CRUX way. I don?t want to disturb here, sorry again.05:09
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brointhemixyay! i made x11r7 work on my box! thanks tilman! :)05:13
mike_kpitillo: I think it's almost ok.05:14
Hanbrointhemix, needs some fixing still though. The confixfiles are not in /etc/X11 for example.05:16
brointhemixahere are they then?05:22
brointhemixxorg.conf is there though05:22
treachno, it isn't.. you put it there.05:23
brointhemixthe xorgconfig did05:23
treachsame thing05:23
brointhemixbut where are they originally then?05:24
treachthat file doesn't exist until you create it.05:25
brointhemixyes, i know05:26
treachso, what's the mystery?05:27
brointhemixi don't know05:28
brointhemixit was Han that started the conversation :)05:28
brointhemixwhat = who05:28
brointhemixdamn my English05:28
HanLook, that xorg supports both locations doesn't mean they are installed in the proper location.05:29
brointhemixisn't the proper location the one you define while running ./configue ?05:30
treachdepends on what you mean with proper.05:30
brointhemixthe one that is working and causing no problems to nobody and nothing for example :)05:31
Hancome on, that's not an intelligent question.05:31
treachif you consider "proper" meaning "being backwards compatible with every brain-dead old application from the stoneage" I suppose the current location isn't proper.05:32
treachanyhow, gtg.05:32
HanLook, now I have to configure stuff in /usr/lib/X1105:33
brointhemixanyway, what's wrong with config files being stored in /etc/X11/?05:34
brointhemixHan: you can't handle me anymore, can you? ;)05:35
HanYou're too daft.05:36
treachHan: you're right, I've never had to mess with those files since I switched to R7, so I didn't think of it.05:36
brointhemixnah, it ain't that bad :)05:36
treachI thought you were refering to applications that insists on stuff being in /usr/X1105:37
HanHmm I just found a README in the xdm package which explains how to get configfiles at the right place.05:38
HanVery kind of that developer. :-)05:42
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treachhm, cptn would it be possible to make prt-get collect info about the files that gets ignored during a "depinst" or "sysup" if you use that feature of pkgutils?08:09
treach(like "files rejected", I guess)08:09
cptnshould be possible, yes08:11
cptnit would be easier though to run "find /var/lib/pkg/rejected"08:12
cptnin the end08:12
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cptnalthough that wouldn't work correctly if the user runs another pkgadd command which rejects files...08:15
rxiim assuming thats why he wants something that logs it :)08:15
treachhm, I've been a bit busy lately so I'm not exctly on top of things.. but I didn't get the impression the ignored files got treated as rejected.08:15
cptnah, ignored08:16
tilmanthey aren't08:16
cptnwell, pkgadd already prints that08:16
cptnand prt-get should collect those, and repeat in the end?08:17
treachbut if you are doing a sysup or depinst, you might miss a lot of them08:17
treachyeah, it struck me as a good idea. However I realize it might get a bit spammy that way.. :p08:17
cptnat least if you miss "a lot of them" :-)08:17
treachthese files ignored [mega list] these files rejected [another mega list] etc...08:18
cptnit's a valid concern though08:19
cptnit's a potentially dangerous feature08:19
treachmaybe it would be better to enhance the logging facilities of prt-get?08:20
cptnin what way?08:20
cptngrep ^ignored *.log08:21
cptn(when using the current logging feature)08:21
treachI'm not sure about what I think..08:21
cptnI mean, it could always write a transaction log08:22
cptnlisting ports updated, files rejected, and files installed08:22
treachbut something along making a reasonably detailed output, but not printing it on screen but rather just saying "this event had issues, please see the log".08:22
treachyeah. I guess that's what I'm after.08:22
rxicptn: wouldnt that get rather large rather quick?08:23
treachsince it has the potential to flood the screen otherwise.08:23
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cptnrxi: no :-)08:23
treachrxi: you could post it as a mail to root if you have the system set up for it. :)08:23
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rehabdollcan anyone test if they can see any fonts in with xpdf08:56
rehabdolli get these errors: Error: Couldn't find a font for 'Times-Bold'08:56
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rehabdollfc-match <font> returns a proper font08:57
copworkdo you know how to scale an old Xcore font08:57
copworkI am using twm windows manager on a tv screen08:57
tilmanyou don't08:58
tilmani think08:58
copworkAnd with the fontconfig new options I can enlarge e.g. the xterm fonts08:58
tilmanfontconfig is only for ttf fonts08:58
copworkbut no idea how to scale the xterm Xcore fonts08:58
copworkthere is a fonts.scale file08:58
rehabdollfonts suck :)08:58
tilmani think that's a fake :D08:58
copworkis there a sleek window manager you would recommend ?09:00
copworkwould be perfect if its easily tweakable for low res displays09:00
cptnblackbox is probably the best and most beautiful overall09:04
cptnYMMV, of course :-)09:04
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RyoScan't receive hop limit: Protocol not available10:03
RyoSwhen doing ping610:03
RyoSsomebody knows this problem?10:03
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Hanfirst hit on google :P10:40
RyoSnot for me O10:41
RyoSsome japanese sites..10:41
marogoogle is for girls10:41
maroreal men ask on irc10:41
RyoSthis works10:41
RyoSfoa shoa maro10:41
RyoSgo make the chicken dance :)10:41
RyoSthanks for the link cptn, it works perfectly fine now :)10:42
cptnso was it missing the entry in /etc/protocols?10:42
* Han proposes to add it to the default /etc/protocols10:44
RyoSi just downloaded this one including the patch10:44
marohmm, weird10:44
cptnmaro: yeah10:44
cptnRyoS: which kernel are you using?10:44
marocptn: any clue why tcl's man-pages aren't compressed?10:44
maro(check the footprint)10:44
marotilman: that should work too10:45
maropkgmk matches for man* IIRC10:45
tilmanyeah, but why does it use mann?10:45
marobut the files in man3 aren't compressed either10:45
cptntilman: NLS?10:45
maromann is perfectly valid I think10:45
cptnmaro: some are10:45
cptn(in man3), but not all10:46
tilmancptn: hehe10:46
maroman[1-9n] is I think10:46
cptnmaro: did you build it already?10:46
marocptn: oh, ok, I just did a ls -l /usr/man/man* | grep -v '\.gz$'10:46
cptnotherwise, it could also be a broken symlink10:47
marobuild what?10:47
marooh yes, at aug 17 according to the timestamps10:47
maro(so not with an old pkgmk)10:47
Hanfind /usr/man ! -name '*.gz'10:48
maroHan: that'll show the directories too, won't it?10:48
tilman-type f10:48
Hanfind /usr/man -type f ! -name '*.gz'10:48
tilmanboo-hoo ;)10:48
maroyes, but why use find when ls is perfectly capable?10:48
HanWhy not?10:49
maroor rather, why "correct" something that has no problems?10:49
HanI didn't correct I improved.10:49
HanOf course you're too proud to accept tips.10:50
maroyou should do something with your life10:50
tilmanmaro: your command has bogus output as well....10:50
marotilman: yes, it's not meant to be used in a published script or something10:51
cptnRyoS: any rough idea when you last rebuild iputils?10:52
RyoSaprox 20 minutes ago10:53
RyoSi installed it today10:53
marohm, is it possible to prepend to variables in makefiles?10:53
cptnmaro: sure, blah$(VAR)10:54
maroin a more non-sh-like way? :P10:55
cptnhow is that sh-like?10:55
maroI mean like += appends10:55
tilman-= maybe10:58
marotilman: if that works I'll hit you :)11:00
maro*phew* it doesn't :)11:03
tilmanphew :p11:09
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marotilman: when you read my reply to jue's nomination, don't get the idea that I like you13:18
maroyou're just a good maintainer :P13:18
treachyou've got a vote?13:19
marouse your eyes more, keys less13:20
treachthat's not the point. I suppose it's just that every time someone who isn't clc posts to that list I get the feeling you get when someone in the audience is making loud remarks out of order in a public meeting.13:29
treachbut that's surely just me.13:29
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maroI have a hard time to differentiate between "clc members" and "crux users"13:44
maroif what they say and do is bullshit, they're idiots, if what they say and do is good, their voice counts in my mind13:45
treachso? Totally beside the point.13:46
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treachgood evening.13:48
maroobviously that's just me since they all want to wear their @'s all the time on irc :P13:48
benitocan someone explain me something please?13:48
marobenito: I bet not13:48
treachnot unless you tell us about it.13:49
benitoi got my usb stick detected but dont know where do i mount it since there is not a /dev/sda on my system13:49
benitobash-3.00# lsusb13:49
benitoBus 004 Device 001: ID 0000:000013:49
benitoBus 003 Device 001: ID 0000:000013:49
benitoBus 002 Device 001: ID 0000:000013:49
benitoBus 001 Device 002: ID 0d7d:1620 Phison Electronics Corp.13:49
benitoBus 001 Device 001: ID 0000:000013:50
treachdon't paste a lot of crap here. use a pastebin.13:50
treachlike the one in the topic..13:50
benitonot pasting anymore dont worry13:50
treachyou've got all the needed drivers loaded?13:51
benitoi bet i dont...13:51
treachproblem solved.13:52
marobenito: does dmesg tell you anything when you plug it?13:52
marotreach: udev should load it13:52
maroyes, but obviously with the limitation that it has to exist13:52
treachiirc one of the differences betweed devfs and udev is that udev *doesn't* load drivers..13:52
marothen study up or STFU13:53
benitobash-3.00# dmesg |grep usb13:53
benitousbcore: registered new driver usbfs13:53
benitousbcore: registered new driver hub13:53
benitousbcore: registered new driver usb-storage13:53
benitousbcore: registered new driver usbhid13:53
benitodrivers/usb/input/hid-core.c: v2.6:USB HID core driver13:53
treachwhee. look who's talking..13:53
maromore eyes, less keys, remember?13:53
benitousb 1-2: new high speed USB device using ehci_hcd and address 213:53
benitousb-storage: device found at 213:53
benitousb-storage: waiting for device to settle before scanning13:53
benitousb-storage: device scan complete13:53
marobenito: hm, no /dev/sd* entries at all?13:53
marowhat does pkginfo -i | grep udev tell you?13:54
benitoudev 087-113:54
benito :)13:54
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maroupgrade to 09613:54
benitois there a port for it then?13:55
maroyes, it's in opt13:55
maroerr, core even13:55
benitook will do so13:55
marojust ports -u && prt-get update udev13:55
benitothen reboot right?13:56
maroremember to rejmerge afterwards13:56
marobenito: you could do that13:56
treachno, you SHOULD do rejmerge13:57
maroor you could pkill udevd && udevd --daemon && udevtrigger; udevsettle13:57
maroactually you don't need to udevsettle, I'm just too used to write scripts :P13:57
benitojust run rejmerge then?13:57
maroyou updated udev?13:58
benitoyes its done13:58
maroyes, then run rejmerge13:58
treachor you might not be able to boot.13:58
benitobash-3.00# rejmerge13:58
benitoNothing to merge13:58
marook, cool13:58
marothen pkill udevd13:58
treachbetter safe than sorry.13:58
maroudevd --daemon && udevtrigger13:59
benitowhat do i do now?14:00
marodid you run those commands?14:00
maronow do you have a /dev/sd*?14:00
benitoi do not :(14:00
benitoonly more folders @ /dev/bus/usb14:01
benito001 002 003 00414:01
benitoknow + 1 2 3 414:01
maroopen another terminal14:02
maro(as root)14:02
marorun udevmonitor in it14:02
marothen switch back to the other one and run udevtrigger, and see what happens in the one running udevmonitor14:02
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marohm wait, what kernel version are you running?14:03
benitothe default one 2.6.1514:03
qidyou should upgrade, there are security vulnerabilities in 2.6.1514:04
maroI think that should do it, but perhaps you'll have better luck with 2.6.1714:04
benitoi will paste the output14:04
maroNOT HERE14:04
cptnbenito: do you have the scsi stuff as modules as well?14:04
marocptn: yeah14:04
benitoi dont think so, no14:04
cptnand are they loaded?14:04
maro<benito> usbcore: registered new driver usb-storage14:05
cptnwould be the module to load14:05
maroisn't that needed by usb-storage?14:06
cptnI know I'm loading it manually on a non-udev system14:06
maro(I have sd_mod compiled-in so I'm not sure if it's triggered)14:06
cptnyeah, it's compiled in here as well14:06
benitomaro >>
cptnthat's why I asked whether the scsi stuff is modular...14:06
benitodont have that module "sd_mod"14:07
marothat could be it then :)14:07
cptnokay, add that to your kernel14:08
benitowell i paid attention mostly to the network and sound part...most have forgotten that14:08
maroI thought modprobing usb-storage would load it, but perhaps it doesn't depend on it anymore14:08
cptnmaro: it won't if it's not compiled14:09
marocptn: depend in the Kbuild sense14:09
maroKConfig, whatever :)14:09
cptnah, no14:09
benitoso i should upgrade the kernel?14:09
cptnusb_storage wants scsi14:09
cptnbut not BLK_DEV_SD14:09
marobenito: yeah, you might as well do that too14:09
marocptn: ah :)14:09
benitowhat version in your opinion?14:10
marobenito: latest 2.6.1714:10
marouse ketchup14:10
benitobut dont have to change anything else then?14:10
cptnbenito: you can also just add scsi disk support as a module14:10
cptnthen you don't have to reboot14:11
cptnjust to see whether this fixes the problem14:11
marocptn: I wouldn't do that if he's upgrading too :P14:11
benitoall right thanks for the help14:11
cptnupdating the kernel later is recommeded though14:11
cptnah, yeah14:11
cptnonly if you keep the same version, as maro says14:11
part`I have archlinux instaled at this moment, but I will install CRUX, in archlinux to upgrade all aplications i write: pacman -Suy, I will upgrade all in crux, what i must do?14:11
part`sorry for my english14:11
part`i reading handbook but...14:11
maropart`: crux doesn't support applications14:12
qidI think prt-get has a single-line command for that14:12
maropart`: ports -u && prt-get sysup14:13
qidI usually just ports -u and upgrade packages manually, because sometimes I don't want to bother with an upgrade that's a minor release change or I have custom changes I have to make14:13
maro(until that lazy bum cptn integrates the port syncing with prt-get)14:13
part`thanks :)14:13
maroany clue what that [permanent] thing in lsmod's "Used by" field means?14:15
maroI compiled my ide controller in as a module (just for fun) and it has that flag14:16
maroide_cd                 35744  014:17
marocdrom                  34976  1 ide_cd14:17
marovia82cxxx               7940  0 [permanent]14:17
marooh well, need sleep14:17
marocptn: you'll need to make some decisions about default groups on crux14:19
maroudev >=097 yells whenever a rule references a non-existing group14:19
cptnyeah, I guess we should add whatever the udev rules contain14:20
cptnalthough I don't know how many new groups that would be14:20
maroso either device permissions should integrate with the existing groups (possibly insecure, think 'users' can use audio devices) or more groups should be added14:20
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marocptn: you'll find out if you update to udev 098 :)14:21
maro(check your boot screen)14:22
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maroI use a local udev port (based on default + suse udev rules) with a bunch of groups added, so I can't really tell14:23
maromy guess is ~5 groups14:24
marobut it should also be considered to do it smarter, e.g. some distros have a "plugdev" group which could mean cdrom + removable storage14:25
cptncrux'  refer to 9 groups14:25
marobut some already exist, no?14:26
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marothe lfs rules use a couple of groups more than mine (default + suse)14:26
cptnactually there were 10, 6 new14:26
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cptnI don't really think we'd need separate 'floppy' and 'tape' groups :-)14:27
marothat's what I mean with the plugdev thing14:27
cptnand dialup isn't that relevant eithet...14:27
marosince "crux on numa" isn't really common or likely :)14:28
marocptn: check out the etc/udev/rules.d in the udev tarball14:28
cptnwhat about them?14:29
* jue votes for a scanner group, to avoid sane-does-not-build questions here14:30
marothe pro's are that they're automatically maintained14:31
marothe lfs rules give deprecation warnings with never udev versions14:32
marodamn I need sleep14:33
maroand as you probably know the udev developers are pretty aggressive about deprecating and changing stuff ;)14:34
cptnyeah, I've read that14:34
cptnalthough I can fully understand the decision to drop klibc support14:34
marothe default rules are maintained by everybody, and Kay is maintaining the SuSE rules herself14:35
marome too14:35
marofor my initramfs I'll probably go for uclibc + busybox (mdev)14:36
maromdev is insanely more simple than udev, if there was a stand-alone version I think it'd be a perfect replacement for crux14:37
maro(perfect udev replacement obviously)14:37
cptnI wouldn't say perfect...14:37
marono shitty daemon, it works as /sbin/hotplug, but has an -s option to scan for devices14:37
maroand the config format is beautiful compared to udev :)14:39
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lucifer4uhello to everybody15:40
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cptnmaro: I think it could become a nice alternative for sure15:47
cptnmaro: however, not calling modprobe for newly detected devices makes it the second choice for now15:48
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rugekcptn: I'm looking for the check_urls result page. Is it linked in wiki?17:52
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TRIBBhowdu people18:17
TRIBBhtaccess and apache ?18:17
TRIBBisnt there a good howto with exampels ??18:17
TRIBBcause i cant get the shit to work :(18:17
treach@lucky htaccess apache howto18:25
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qidTRIBB: perhaps you should try #apache for apache questions20:30
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blizzis it possible to see jaeger's crux-livecd sources somewhere?21:22
blizzMakefiles, custom scripts and such.21:22
blizzahh i found it21:26
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