IRC Logs for #crux Tuesday, 2006-09-12

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nipuLcptn: do you still have that document on arch support ideas?01:47
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aon@seen prologic04:02
clbaon: prologic was last seen in #crux 3 weeks, 4 days, 2 hours, 48 minutes, and 11 seconds ago: <prologic> danke04:02
rxiaon: im guessing he is still at the paraolympics or whatever he was going04:11
tilmanmaybe he's off to learn german04:11
aonyep, i read the log04:11
rxitilman: who in there right mind would want to learn german :P04:13
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tilmanrxi: dunno04:19
tilmanbut read this
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rxiwhats that got to do with the price of eggs in england?04:27
tilmanyou tell me04:28
aonnobody says their ASL around here04:31
aonwe've got it all wrong :(04:31
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copworkisnt it spelled ADSL ?04:36
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* rxi_ offers tilman a biscuit04:45
tilmanis that a trap?04:46
rxi_only if your allergic to mint :)04:47
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brointhemixdo you have any idea how to make mutt recognise national language fonts?06:25
brointhemixcuz i just can't make it work06:25
Hanworks fine here06:26
brointhemixwhat did you do?06:26
Hanexport LC_ALL=en_GB06:26
brointhemixi'm from Poland so i'd like to make those a,o,z,n,c with "tails" working06:26
tilmanmake sure mutt is linked against libncursesw06:27
tilman(note the 'w')06:27
tilmanthat's only for wtf-8 of course06:27
tilmanwtf-8 is recommended though06:27
brointhemixi'd like to get ISO-blahblah-206:27
tilmanso you can view your japanese/chinese/korean spam06:27
HanIt's probably not mutt but the term which doesn't support the locale06:28
HanSo. open a term, export LC_ALL=pl_PL and in that term open a term and in that term start mutt06:29
brointhemixthe term seems to worki just fine with polish signs06:29
brointhemixyou see? :)06:29
HanNo, I don't use that locale/.06:29
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HanAnyway. I am off to pump some iron.06:30
brointhemixwow, now mutt talks Polish AND understands Polish ISO fonts06:30
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brointhemixbut i don't want it to talk Polish :)06:30
brointhemixi just want it to recognise the fonts :)06:30
Hanthen don't install the mutt locales06:31
brointhemixchecking LC_TYPE06:31
tilmanreset LC_ALL first ;)06:31
brointhemixyea yea :)06:32
brointhemixwow, seems like it did it :)06:33
brointhemixgotta check it out06:33
brointhemixthank you very much :)06:36
* brointhemix praises Han and tilman06:36
brointhemixo// tilman06:36
brointhemixo// Han06:36
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richi_au1j #e06:44
brointhemixtilman: you're from Germany, right?06:44
treachj "/-users"06:45
brointhemixhow much is petrol aroun where you live?06:45
tilmanit was at 1.22 yesterday06:45
tilmanthat's the plain stuff ;)06:46
brointhemixhmm, that's pretty the same as here06:47
brointhemixaah no sry06:48
brointhemixdamn my mathematical skills06:48
brointhemixit's more06:48
brointhemixthanks for the info06:48
tilmanthought so06:48
* brointhemix praises tilman twice as much as before06:49
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nipuLjust an idea :)
tilmanoooh, a flow chart08:22
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treach something more amusing maybe ;-),,1869992,00.html08:26
aonnp: ZZ Top - Arrested For Driving While Blind08:29
brointhemixumm, what are standard /sbin permissions? 755?08:31
aonyes, that's what they mostly are08:31
tilman15:30 passed08:32
tilmanguess what happend08:32
brointhemixnothing? :)08:32
treachob crash. :p08:32
treachopen box08:32
tilmanbrointhemix is out08:32
tilmantreach stays for the next round08:32
aonyou should move timezones every hour :)08:32
tilmanbrointhemix: btw, you could have used /usr/ports/core/filesystem/.footprint08:33
treachthe purpose of time-bombing gpl sw kind of beats me though..08:33
brointhemixtilman: right, didn't think of that08:33
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j^2morning all08:56
rxihey j^208:57
aonhey j^209:08
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HusioI should create audio group manually ?09:42
Husiothere's no such group yet09:42
cptndepends on whether you need it09:42
bd2cptn, hey. I think it's good idea to put "UPGRADE ^var/run/utmp$ NO" into /etc/pkgadd.conf to not bother with messages like "WARNING: could not determine runlevel - doing soft reboot" when doing "reboot" after filesystem (the package) upgrade.09:53
cptnyeah, sounds good to me09:54
cptndid you already ask tilman about that?09:54
cptnokay, I'll ask him when he's around09:55
bd2fine, thanks09:55
_mavrick61cptn: Check this please
tilmanlooks good to me as well09:57
cptn_mavrick61: yes, what about it?09:58
_mavrick61You to tilman can read the buggzilla09:58
_mavrick61The say it has to do with the dist..09:58
cptnit "Why not just use persistant network names if you need to ensure that they09:58
cptnstay the same?  udev and other tools can provide this."09:58
cptnis that a problem for you?09:59
_mavrick61Any one who can set the finger whay i got the problem...09:59
cptnudev automatically loads the modules09:59
cptndepending on your bus hierarchy, one or the other ends up as eth009:59
_mavrick61Yes... Because eth0 and eth1 change randomly..09:59
_mavrick61I have only upgrade Kernel..09:59
cptnno udev upgrade?10:00
_mavrick61Wirh my complex Iptables setting.. the in -i and out -o will be viceversa and that stopp our system to work10:00
_mavrick61No udev upgrade.. Just kernel update10:00
cptnthe udev solution is to name your interfaces depending on the mac address10:01
_mavrick61Sam hervare, same system same NIC only new kernel.10:01
cptnexample here10:02
_mavrick61Yes.. But what have happend this have never happend before..10:02
cptnwell, things change10:03
_mavrick61The modproble alias don't work either any more..10:03
cptnare you sure?10:03
cptnisn't it rather that it's too late already?10:03
cptnsince eth0 is already assigned to a particular device?10:04
_mavrick61In some way it seams the kernel/udev load eth0 regardles the modprobe.conf setting..10:04
cptnyes, that's what Greg already told you in bugzilla10:04
cptnif you don't want this, you can disable the modprobe calls10:04
cptnin /etc/udev/rules.d/10:05
_mavrick61So that mean the modprobe.conf not needed to aktivate the modules either...10:06
cptnit's just something different10:07
cptnwhen you boot up, udev will load all drivers needed for your hardware10:07
cptnthat's called 'cold plugging'10:07
tilmancptn: did you want me to commit the pkgadd change? %)10:07
cptntilman: sure :-)10:07
cptn_mavrick61: if the drivers are loaded, the device names (eth0, eth1) are assigned10:07
tilmanoh, okay10:07
cptnand depend on the order in which the drivers are loaded10:08
_mavrick61OK.. So udev is smarter then the old sysdev?10:08
tilmandamnit, i need to finish pkgadd.8.in10:08
cptn_mavrick61: it just does cold-/hotplugging10:08
cptndevfs didn't10:08
cptnearlier, you had the aliases in modprobe.conf10:09
cptnso when you ran 'ifconfig eth0 up', the module would be loaded10:09
cptnnot earlier10:09
cptnbut in the current scenario, it's already loaded, so modprobe.conf has no influence there anymore10:10
_mavrick61Ok.. That was some new info..10:10
_mavrick61And that works for all NIC's installed..10:10
tilmanbd2: what's your name again?10:11
_mavrick61All NIC modules will be installed... for all NIC..10:11
_mavrick61Or loaded10:11
cptnunless you disable the modprobing in /etc/udev/rules.d/10:11
_mavrick61Aha there is som sort of auto modprobing in udev.. Hmmm Now I get a better picture of how it works...10:12
bd2tilman, pardon?10:15
tilmanwhat is your name10:15
tilmanyour real name10:15
bd2ah.. Anton Vorontsov10:15
tilmani'm too lazy to fetch it out of my mbox :P10:16
tilmanbd2: it's in, thanks10:16
bd2great, thank you10:17
_mavrick61Could this be a type of racing condition during device init and modules loading... So that causing the random load order....10:24
cptn_mavrick61: it just loads whatever hotplug event is generated first10:24
cptnwhether this should be deterministic or not I can't say10:25
cptn_mavrick61: but this is to be expected:10:25
_mavrick61Some changes someware in kernel or in udev causing the problem any way...10:25
cptnit's not a problem, it's a feature...10:26
jjpkChange the rules if they do not suit your needs, that is where crux shines.10:27
_mavrick61Hmmm Not for me.. It break down my whol system... If one nic which normal is for Public network will be assigned to an other eth which is hoocked to the internal network...10:27
cptn_mavrick61: then why don't you use persistent names?10:27
_mavrick61I just got to know that was posible...10:28
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_mavrick61So it is just to erase and rewind my BRAIN... And leran new way to deal with udev possibilities..10:33
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marodidn't /usr/share/pci.ids used to not be compressed?10:56
maroah yes10:56
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rehabdollupdate-pciids compresses the list if you have gzip installed11:05
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Husiohow does the dependences are being set? Like in gentoo  or source mage ... or there is some faq where I can read about it? //wiki is broken :|11:15
Husioops... not here :)11:16
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maroshould pkgutils really update anything in /var?11:37
maro(re. latest commit)11:37
* maro pokes tilman11:37
tilmani'll think about that once the number of items in pkgadd.conf that handle /var stuff is higher than n11:38
marothe question is if they just haven't been discovered yet11:39
maroe.g. logfiles being overwritten11:39
tilmanports don't think log files \o/11:40
tilmani need a break11:40
marothe whole purpose of /var is variable data, after all - i.e. files that are meant to be changed repeatedly by the running system11:41
treachtilman: are you trying to implement intelligent design into pkgutils? :P11:41
tilmanmaro: yeah, i see what you mean11:41
marotreach: yeah, he's working on implementing AI11:41
treachseems like it. :P11:41
marodid you see the last commit before commenting?11:41
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marohe just added a UPGRADE NO for /var/run/utmp11:42
treachme? No, I just read about "thinking ports". :-)11:42
tilmanhe commented on the 'think' typo11:42
maroah, that wya :)11:42
treachspeaking of /var... this might be a really stupid question, but really what is the rationale for keeping ports in /usr, other than that "it's traditional"? They aren't really static data after all..11:44
marotreach: that _is_ the only reason :11:45
maroat least as far as I can tell11:45
treachok, thanks, I was afraid I was about to get lynched. :P11:45
maropersonally I think using the ports name is sort of silly, since the applications never really need porting to run on linux/glibc11:46
maroand also because they're written in another language than the real ports11:46
maroand built with other commands, etc. :)11:47
maroOTOH, they are static, unless you update them :P11:49
tilmani propose to use /var/stuff-that-makes-this-box-work11:51
treachtilman: I'm not suggesting a move, I was just curious, since it doesn't makes sense. At least not to me.11:52
tilmanit was directed at maro :D11:52
tilmanyou are right11:52
tilmanaccording to the FHS /var would fit better11:52
* bd2 bears up /var/ports. it would be great crux-2.3/3.0 feature12:10
bd2aahh.. or /var/stuff-that-makes-this-box-work, sounds great too12:11
tilmanln -s stuff-that-makes-this-box-work ports12:12
* RyoS pokes cnuke 12:19
cnukeRyoS: matter?12:19
RyoSyou want a good tasting piece of cake?12:20
RyoSi want it too12:20
cnukewell, just bake one...12:21
RyoSi am absolutley sorry, but i am not able to make a good tasting cake12:22
tilmanat least you're funny12:22
tilmanto some degree12:22
tilmanthat's barely measurable or even describable ;)12:22
aoni.e. not funny12:23
RyoSoh yes12:24
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maroI knew it, tilman is working on another distro!13:27
treachsince when is e17 a distro?13:28
tilmanit's not13:28
tilmanRyoS is on crack13:28
tilmanthat's all13:28
treachthat was my point.13:28
marono, he's out of crack13:28
RyoSmaro is right13:28
tilmanmaro: that's mildly funny13:28
tilmanoh no it's not13:28
tilmanconfused funny and stupid13:28
maroyou tend to13:28
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prologicyo yo yo :)13:58
prologicI'm back!13:58
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deus_exHm.Since I can't find anywhere 233Mhz ddr ram to buy, if I buy one that works on 400 Mhz, it should work on my m/b?15:01
Hanyup, but at 233 mhz :-)15:02
deus_exHan: Thanks, that was info that I was looking for :)15:03
deus_exI am aware it will work on half of speed, but I can live with that.15:04
deus_ex2x512 Mb Kingston ram is around 90 euros here.15:05
deus_exAnd since my vacation in Spain is off, I might as well spend the money on something :)15:06
* deus_ex hopes to spend some more money on gf 7300 gt agp card, too. 15:09
deus_exIf it ever gets made, that is.15:09
treachI'd never put money into an old system..15:12
Auge^i put money into my old system - to keep them alive with up-to-date features (dvd-rw, usb 2.0)... speed of athlon700 is ok for most things.15:14
deus_extreach: I can not afford a whole new system right now, so I will upgrade/expand one part at the time.15:16
treachanyway which pleases thee. :-)15:17
deus_exI may reconsider when Core Duo gets affordable, but I'll cross that bridge later :)15:17
deus_exLaptop, otoh, I would buy in a heartbeat.15:18
treachMeh, I can't decide wether those intel dualcores are overrated or not..15:18
treachThey are clearly not all the rage they are made out to be, but otoh, as long as your apps fits in the cache...15:19
deus_exHaven't had a chance to play with it, yet.15:21
treachCeleron D 2.66 + 512MB + MSI mb, ~150¤ here, not too bad if you're happily using an old system that runs on it's last leg.15:28
deus_extreach: That sounds nice, but where 'here' is :) ?15:31
treachpretty far from ex-jugoslavia. :p15:31
treachwhat would something like that cost in your region?15:33
treach(I'm well aware that we here up in the north are pretty spoiled with cheap hardware.)15:34
deus_exMoment, let me check.15:34
deus_exWhole computer with that chip, memory, m/b without monitor is around 270 euros.15:39
treachgotta remove the HDD, PSU and case from that equation.. :-/15:42
deus_exUpgrade kits I've seen (chip, memory, m/b only) are ranging from 150-400 euros, depending15:43
treachsounds about the same actually.15:43
marothe level of unmaintainability in the official ports is getting redicilous :(15:43
tilmanthank god you don't maintain them15:44
treachtouché, rather.15:44
maroapproaches to change a line in a configuration file:15:44
maro1) use sed15:44
deus_extreach: hard disk is 60 or so euros, chinese case/psu is dime a dozen, so ;)15:45
maro2) use a patch (if the sed would become complex or error-prone)15:45
treachdeus_ex: yeah, I know, they are they are total crap.15:45
maro3) copy the file, change the line and install it over upstream's version15:45
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marotilman: problem is, when things get unmaintainable, they also tend to not get updated very frequently15:46
deus_exI bought chieftec psu while is *heavy"15:46
jjpkdeus_ex: those should last long enough.15:47
treachI have an antec, quite some difference compared to the original. :)15:47
deus_exjjpk: I hope so :)15:47
jjpkI'm starting to worry about my antec.15:47
jjpkMainly because I am broke as it is.15:48
deus_extreach: antec?that sounds familiar...15:48
treachI think my original psu wheighted in < 0.5 kg or something.. this one is 2.8 kg iirc. :p15:49
maroplus it makes it hard to divert from (e.g. run another version) the "official" one15:49
tilmanmaro: i don't think you're in the position to call opt/hal "unmaintainable"15:49
jjpkdeus_ex: I still have no clue what the difference between chieftec and antec are.15:49
jjpkThey make the same products. o_o15:49
tilman(i'm basing this on the fact that you never contributed to it or even maintained it ;D)15:49
treachjjpk: stickers maybe? :p15:49
jjpktreach: probably. That is the only thing that really separates the brands. :p15:50
marotilman: it's just one of many15:50
* treach once worked at a factory manufacturing several brands of welding electrodes. :)15:50
deus_exBoth are highly recommended in local forums.15:50
treachsame stuff, different packages. and price stickers. :P15:50
tilmanit's just ridiculous for YOU to say that OPT is unmaintainable15:51
maroplus it's sort of hard to "contribute" anything if what you want is to _not_ distrotize everything15:51
maroI didn't say it was, I said it was becoming15:51
tilmanwhich is even more ridiculous15:51
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marowith that argument I cannot argue, good night15:52
bd2maro, "approaches to change a line in a configuration file" - there is a SVN option also.15:53
marobd2: I do use svn for the official ports15:53
maroand would for everything else if it was available15:53
bd2and opt isn't official? its svn available15:54
tilmanbd2: i think you misunderstood him15:54
bd2ah.. will reread15:54
deus_exFrom sr_CS locale:"TODO-fix LC_COLLATE to work correctly for latin alphabet too"15:54
bd2ah.. you're talking about the packages itselfs not Pkgfiles, right?15:56
* bd2 ready to run "reread" program again ;-)15:56
maroplease do :)15:57
bd2haha. lol. just call me dumb and ignore, but I can't understand what you've just wrote ;-)15:58
marohere's a hint: everthing else = contrib, ...15:58
bd2maybe because it's a late night here15:58
bd2maro, yeah. The contrib is problem, and svn don't work there15:58
bd2is it possible to made "contrib" svn branch, and let it less restrict rules to join into? this can solve dups issue in some cases. + easy to take over unmaintained port16:01
bd2+ users who don't have web space (like me ;-) can contribute their ports.16:02
treachsounds like a *bad* idea.16:04
treachwho's responsible?16:05
bd2about what?16:05
treachthe more people who are able to affect something, the more likely they are to break, and the less clear it becomes who broke it.16:06
treachor did I misuderstand something?16:06
bd2treach, you are thinking too bad about other people ;-)16:06
treachno.. I just have too much bad experience..16:07
marotreach: get familiar with the concept of "privileges"16:07
bd2if they break something, they (or another person) can fix it if they/he able to do it16:07
treachmaro:  I am familiar with the concept, no need to patronize.16:08
maroeven if I think it should be enough to tell people not to fuck with other maintainers' ports16:08
bd2the less people have the right to change something, the more time need to fix something. think Microsoft16:08
bd2maro, exactly16:08
treachyeah, I'm paranoid. :-)16:08
maroif it lived in svn, perhaps some of the less-commonly-used ports in opt could move in there as well16:09
maroinstead of working as some dump for "projects endorsed by people who were contributors in late 2005"16:11
* deus_ex wonders which ports would Ronny like to maintain...16:11
jjpkdeus_ex: :D :D16:11
bd2btw, there is no need to "svn commit" ports you don't maintain, and in the same time you can change ports you don't maintain without changes lost at "ports -u"16:11
marodeus_ex: LYNX! :D16:11
maroit's BASICS16:11
marobd2: if that isn't obvious for everyone in contrib, I do understand treach's worries :P16:12
deus_exmaro: Is it time for BASICS repo yet ;) ?16:12
treachmaro: don't mind me, I'm a notorious worrier :P16:13
bd2maro, hehe. That is easy to preven: one repo for the commits in ~/ports, and one repo in /usr/ports/ . changes that you'll not commit goes to /usr/ports/ and changes you'll commit goes to ~/ports16:15
bd2anyway, of course it must be written some where, and contrib access should be given after siging off some piece of paper ;-)16:16
deus_exWith the blood of the virgin.16:16
bd2haha. right you are16:17
bd2dreams dreams...16:18
deus_exbd2: You can get a virgin for 200 bucks in Russia, if you are in that sort of thing.16:19
deus_exYou can get pretty much anything in Russia for 200 bucks...16:20
maroyou can get 20 of most things in russia for 200 bucks16:22
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deus_exFrom Russia with love ;)16:23
tilman20 bucks?16:25
marook, 200 of most things16:26
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bd2deus_ex, hehe. no, dreams about "contrib under svn control". sound like a crazy dream, I agree, better should dream about a virgin for 200 bucks ;-)16:27
* deus_ex dreams about Keira Knightley for 200 bucks16:31
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bd2her blood is appropriate for the crux?16:32
deus_exMe likes.16:33
deus_exDoubt she is a virgin, though.16:33
deus_exBut, this one is.
bd2whe should recall hitmen from "gcc speedup" operation to get her (Adriana) blood first.16:38
deus_exGet me her, I'll give you her blood :)16:39
bd2deus_ex, if I'll get her, *I*'ll better give you her blood ;-)16:50
deus_exIts not her blood that I'm after :)16:51
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treach :D :D18:24
tilmanhe got carried away a bit, it seems18:29
tilmanwhen looking for 'proof'18:29
treachvery entusiastic apparently. :o18:29
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nipuLi think i need glasses19:01
nipuLi cant make out the pictures19:01
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