IRC Logs for #crux Wednesday, 2006-09-13

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nipuLsweet, pkgpatch seems to work really well. time to start working on a new crux for amd6402:00
nipuLi think i'll call it YAC64 :)02:00
nipuLseeing as this would be the 3rd offering of a 64bit crux02:01
cptnnipuL: sorry, missed you the other day02:02
cptnI could probably find the multi-arch stuff somewhere, however I don't have it handy just now02:02
nipuLthat's cool, i was just curious if you analysis covered this patching technique02:03
cptnno; I toyed with three way merges a bit02:05
cptnbut it's hard to get that right02:05
nipuLthere's always an exception to the rule02:07
cptnwell, yours doesn't do merging02:07
cptnso what would that exception be for?02:08
cptnor was that just a general remark?02:08
nipuLwhat was the problem(s) you encountered using a merge?02:09
cptnwell, I didn't want to track history02:09
cptnsince this would have involved using a VCS02:09
nipuLthe main advantage i see to using a merge is conflict detection02:10
nipuLand the method i'm using is very optimistic, so no doubt i'll run into problems02:11
nipuLbut the main goal of pkgpatch is to not worry about the ports where there are no problems02:12
cptnyeah, that was my initial motivation too02:13
cptni.e. reducing the manual involvement to those ports which conflict02:13
cptnnowadays, I think it would be better just to track ports02:14
cptnand flag changes in the master ports02:14
cptnsince usually, the changes are easily applied02:14
nipuLyeah, but i'm lazy02:14
cptneven by hand02:14
cptnthings like arch specific files etc. make it rather hard02:15
nipuLwas it you who suggested the "crux mantra"02:15
cptnunless you enforce naming rules02:15
cptnyeah :-)02:15
nipuLwell the arch maintainer could just -uf and add that to the patchset02:15
nipuLone of the mantras sort of fits in the case of boring arch maintainence, sorry for paraphrasing "let crux do the work, to leave you to do the thinking"..or something02:16
cptnyeah, although I believe port maintenance (even if you're "just" a arch maintainer) requires thinking02:18
nipuLi agree, but i'd rather spend time thinking that adding /usr/lib64 to everythink02:20
cptnI don't think our ideas conflict that much02:21
cptnyou just always use your tool to port a port again02:21
nipuLpkgpatch would be more of a tool for the arch maintainer to help knock out the boring ports02:21
cptnwhile I'd suggest to initially port it (using a tool if wanted) and then just tracking the changes02:21
nipuLin the end it just produces a port02:21
cptni.e. there's no real benefit in running your tool to update a version than doing it by hand02:22
nipuLbesides time02:22
cptnyeah, editing the version is probably faster02:22
cptnby hand02:22
cptnand at the same time it'll help you understand a port, therefore making it easier to find problems later on02:23
cptnagain saving time02:23
cptnalthough I understand that you meant it to be the other way around02:24
nipuLi can see situation where either way could save time02:25
cptnhowever, I consider the tracking port more important for efficient arch maintenance02:25
cptni.e. easily obtain a list of ports that changed02:26
cptnwhether you then use a tool to update your arch port, or do it manually may even be a personal preference thing02:26
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pitillohi good morning, I made a fresh install of crux and a sysup, when starting it cannot load the swap partition. "cannot stat /dev/hda7: No such file..." Seems to be a problem with udev. Anyone experienced that problem?07:47
cptndoesn't sound familiar07:51
cptnwhat does fdisk -l tell you?07:51
pitillo/dev/hda7            2402        2432      248976   82  Linux swap / Solaris07:52
pitillothe swapon command works perfectly when logged. This is the first time I see this. I?m thinking in give a try to the old udev rules.07:53
cptnwhat does "when logged" mean?07:55
pitillocptn, If I login to the machine and make "swapon /dev/hda7" works. Sorry my english.07:55
cptnand where do you get that message?07:56
cptnduring init?07:56
cptnthat's quite strange07:57
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cptnpitillo: just to be sure, you did run 'rejmerge', right?07:59
pitillocptn, didn?t run it. I?ll read about it. Don?t know what?s that.08:00
pitillowell,tomorrow I?ll see the rejected files... but sure there are some related to udev08:01
cptnbasically, unless you run rejmerge your system may not work, or boot, or both08:01
pitilloIt?s my little work laptop and I?m doing the configuration bit a bit.08:02
cptnsure, that's not a problem08:03
cptnbut if you update software, you should run rejmerge08:03
cptn_before_ you reboot08:03
tilmanpitillo: please consider fixing your... whatever it is08:06
tilmanIt?s not fun to read question marks everywhere instead of ?s08:06
copworkkeyboard ?08:07
copworki read both your ' as ?08:08
tilmancopwork: i faked them :)08:08
richi_auttilman: me, too08:08
copworkthought so08:08
richi_autdoes anyone know whether ccache works properly, e.g. when I'm tunring the loadable modules support on and off in the linux kernel configuration?08:20
cptnhow is that related?08:21
tilman"what does that have to do with anything?"08:21
tilmanrichi_aut: worksforme08:21
cptnccache works properly, even if you wear a red t-shirt08:21
tilmannot sure whether the kernel is actually picking up ccache08:21
richi_auttilman: if the cc of ccache in the path before the gcc cc in the path, I think it's chached...08:22
cptnor use make CC=/usr/lib/ccache/cc08:23
richi_autcptn: don't know whats going on while the kernel configuration, maybe then the source files where changed....08:23
cptnrichi_aut: so your question actually is whether ccache works if source files have benn changed?08:24
richi_autcptn: yes, I think, this works, too (i was just reading the README of ccache port (and, yes, I'n new to c/c++ development ;) ))08:24
richi_autcptn: yes08:24
cptnyes, that works fine08:25
cptnit'll create a hash from the preprocessed (think: gcc -E) version of a source file08:25
cptnand the flags IIRC08:25
cptnand if that matches with an existing one, it'll use the cached version08:25
cptnotherwise, it'll rebuild it08:25
cptnso if the source changed, ccache will do the right thing08:25
richi_autcptn: aaahh, ok, that would have been my second question ;) . thanks, for the answers08:26
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pitillosorry tilman and thanks for the advise. And about rejmerge, I check the rejected files manually, dont know about this util. Tomorrow I will check that. Thanks for the tip cptn.08:51
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richi_autcptn: ccache makes hashes from: pre-processor output from running the compiler with -E, the command line options, the real compilers size and modification time, any stderr output generated by the compiler09:03
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sal002Is there a boot floppy for ucrux?  The iso will not boot on my system09:52
copworkif you have a working nfs server you can use a normal floppy with a kernel09:56
aonor see crux handbook section 3.4.109:56
j^2hey i've having trouble with bind909:58
j^2can some one check out....09:58
aoncopwork: the handbook has instructions to install with floppy boot but getting packages from the cd09:58
aonso no need to setup nfs09:58
j^2i put the @@ before what i know the error is....09:59
j^2but it's not working :(09:59
copworkyeah, of course. you dont need nfs ... if you get your network up and running with a good kernel :P10:00
copworkmy fault10:01
copworkbut you have to bake a good kernel, sal00210:01
aonyou don't need network during the installation if the stuff comes from the cd :)10:02
sal002I can't even boot into the PC ;)10:02
sal002The iso won't load at all (just flashes right by)10:02
sal002Not sure if the CD format is at fault, but I verified the md5sum and have other CDs that load10:02
sal002Therefore, I just need a bootfloppy that will allow me to load the CD and then do the install10:03
aonyes, see handbook section 3.4.1 for that :)10:04
copworkhehe, okay so any kernel that boots and has ide and cdrom support with the basic filesystems :P10:05
sal002Is there a boot.img somewhere with the default crux kernel?  I don't think the kernel is at fault (since I can load the regular i586 Crux 2.2 ISO)10:06
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sal002Will this process work to try and resolve the problem (remastering boot .iso)
maromm nice (re 1872)10:12
sal002Is there a way to extract a boot image from a cdrom?  I could extract that from the crux 2.2 iso and then rebuild the ucrux 2.1 cd10:14
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treachconfusing.. prt-get diff11:17
treachPort                          Installed           Available in the ports tree11:17
treachfirefox-flash-plugin    7.0r68-1            7.0r63-111:17
treachNo differences found11:17
treachright up there with totem refusing to start for "No reason". :P11:18
cptntreach: what does 'prt-get info firefox-flash-plugin' say?11:19
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cptnand it produces the diff output with 7.0r63-1 being available?11:21
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cptncan you paste 'diff' 'current firefox-flash-plugin' too?11:21
treachit produces what I pasted before11:22
aonshouldn't the port in the tree be 7.0r68?11:23
cptnthat's the confusing part I guess11:23
treachyeah. :)11:24
cptnprt-get dup|grep firefox-flash-plugin11:24
cptndo you have duplicated ports for ffp?11:24
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treachthing:~% prt-get dup|grep firefox-flash-plugin11:25
cptnand prt-get current firefox-flash-plugin?11:25
cptnis this a cache problem?11:25
Romsterfirefox-flash-plugin downgraded?11:25
treach"current" says 7.0r63-111:25
Romster7.0r68-1            7.0r63-111:26
cptnno, it's a prt-get thing11:26
cptnalthough I couldn't reproduce it myself11:26
treachcptn: I just tried updating the cache, no dice.11:27
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cptntreach: no, it appears they're just switches11:27
cptni.e. 'current' and 'info' seem to be right11:27
Romsterso there was a problem with current cersion so its been downgraded?11:28
treachyes, but I wasn't sure where they got their values from.11:28
aonRomster: no, it has actually been upgraded11:28
treach(chache, not chached.)11:28
Romsterwell my installed says r68 while aviable is r6311:29
aonfrom 7.0r63-1 to first 7.0r63-2 and then 7.0r68-111:29
Romsterto me thats going down.11:29
aonsee commit timeline11:29
treachlucky you. I guess you're not a part of the problem then.11:29
treachor weren't if you stayed out of it.. ;)11:30
Romsterwhat the prkinfo says i have r6311:30
Romsteryet prt-get diff says i have version r6811:30
* Romster shrugs and updates it anyways11:31
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Romsterok md5sum was off too.11:32
Romsterr63 > r68 now.11:32
treachaon: there is another confusing part except that the fields get swithed, and that is that diff claims there is no difference. :P11:32
Romsterah one of those downloads without a version number in the distfile, tsk tsk.11:33
cptntreach: do you use 'prefer higher'?11:33
cptncan you try with --strict-diff?11:33
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treachthat get's it right.11:34
Romsteri read someware wget can check timestamps of remote files, wondred if that could be used in such away to version it after timestamp maybe.11:34
cptntreach: and there's no line in the original stating "Undecidable version differences (use --strict-diff)"11:35
Romsteroh hmm i know whats happend the sob, i've changed the md5sum to the old file..., i gotta deleate the old file so i can download the new file...11:35
treachcptn: there was, but I misread the original output of that. (I more or less just woke up...)11:35
cptnjust paste it next time I ask for it, okay? :-)11:36
treachyes sir. :-)11:36
treachI still fail to see why preferhigher would cause this. :-/11:37
cptnthat's new code11:37
Romsternot only do i have to rm the source file i had to forerebuild it aswell.. or else it uses the old built file, *grumbles*11:37
cptnand there's a function called printFormattedDiffLine()11:38
cptntaking two versions, and apparently I mixed them11:38
treachI see.11:38
Romsterforce build*11:38
cptnRomster: could you maybe just wrote that down somewhere?11:38
RomsterI'll leave you lot to figure out a solution :)11:38
Romstercptn, eh?11:39
treachRomster: STFU, you're not really interesting, but rather distracting.11:39
Romstersorry i was _only_ adding my observations...11:39
Romsterarn't very nice...11:40
aontreach unleashed his inner Han :)11:40
* Romster goes off11:40
treachOnce and a while I too have a temper.. even if it's rare. :)11:40
cptntreach: BTW, do you think this output should be optional11:48
cptnI guess for 'diff' you'd rather not want to see that11:48
treachwhat? "No difference found" or "use --strict-diff"?11:51
cptnwell, the whole block11:52
cptnthose differences prt-get couldn't identify as undecided11:52
* treach thinks this over..11:53
cptnerr wait11:53
treachif it hadn't been printed wouldn't we have caught this, right?11:54
cptnthe difference prt-get couldn't identify as either smaller or larger11:54
cptnthen prt-get would have simply ignored it11:54
cptnsince it couldn't decide which version is higher11:54
cptn(which is a bug itself)11:54
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treachmm. then I guess the output is good. :-)11:55
treach(since it caught a bug)11:55
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Romstertreach,  temper pfft, you haven't seen me in real life! I'm the fitness freak too.12:06
treachany other kind of irrelevant crap you want to bring up while the traffic is low?12:07
Romsterno not really, i just feel like, you all want me to leave this channel. yes i do crap on sometimes, my spelling isn't the best, so? And i'm not argueing, i'm making a valid point. Feels like ya treating me like a outsider, I couldn't care less if you personally hate me. just ignore me if you want too, it is irc after all. Ok i'm not much of a programemr but i'm always learning more stuff. I'f i'm not welcome i'll just leave.12:15
cptntreach: core/prt-get is updated12:16
treachcptn: I'll give it a shot12:17
cptnwill hit rsync in the next couple of minutes12:17
cptnthe bad news is that flash won't be undecided :-)12:17
cptnsince I fixed the version comperator as well12:17
cptnso you won't be able to verify that I fixed the diff output12:17
treachworks as advertised now.12:21
cptngreat, thanks for the report12:21
treachnp. :-)12:21
treachRomster: 1. I don't hate you, or anyone else. 2. Get over it, you spell like shit, we make jokes about it. That's life. 3. Nobody needs to be a 1337-programmer, but you need some timing. And just externalizing everything blindly out in the channel is an annoying habit, to say the least. 4. "Facts" that are of absolutely no consequece should be left out.12:27
treach(You think you need to be a fitness freak to be angry?)12:27
Romsterno. the fact of being fit, was to imply i can look after myself, and when i get angery i get angery if need be. nevermind. its way OT12:30
copworkno its a good story12:31
Romsterpoint 4 thrown away OT crap, point 3 is interesting though.12:31
* treach tries to imagine the ways the size of your latisimus dorsis will help you on irc..12:32
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Romstermeh not gonna bother expalining it. and i'em a aussie too, our slang would anoy any person that liskt to use proper english.12:33
treachit's not slang you dummy. It's a muscle.. :D12:34
Romstermaybe i shouldn't think my mind out loud, but make proper deuctions, but whats the need some timing bit?12:34
Romsterno i was refering to your 4 points, not what last sentance i ignored that.12:34
treachPlease explain what you are refering to as slang?12:35
Romsterprolly, instead of using the correct word as probably.12:36
Romsternevermindi'm just boring you lot.12:36
treachTiming; To speak about the appropriate thing at the appropriate time, and to know when to shut up. ... I don't say "prolly"12:37
tilmani do12:37
treachI know, I just got the impression Romster accused me of using some unitelligeble slang.12:37
Romsterok maybe i shoulnd't of just bluntly butted in..12:37
Romsterno i use it lol12:38
tilmani don't think anyone would mind if you said "arrr, bloody mate!" all day12:38
tilmanor anything12:38 long as it wasn't done here.. It could be annoying if he did that here every 5 min.. ;D12:39
Romsterbloody oath :/12:39
tilmando it12:39
Romsterand whats with some channels that say aol speak is lol, lmao, etc, when its an abbreavation, its like everyone brags aol because its ran by n00bs.12:41
Romsteri jsut tryed out gtksee and it a crashing pos, gotta be a nice viewing program, gimp is overkill to just view a pic.12:42
tilmani like entice12:42
cptngqview is okay12:42
tilman(requires teh efl)12:42
cptnmike_k: what do you think about 'prt-get diff' only showing undecided diffs when called with '-v'?12:43
cptnerr, did I just use the ulugh question pattern?12:44
tilmanmike_k: what do you think about ... belgium?12:44
mike_kcptn: so, is an answer still expected? =)12:45
cptnmike_k: sure :-)12:45
mike_ktilman: belgium is Hercule Poirot's country, isn't it?12:46
treachcptn:  If I may butt in.. since undecided diffs are "abnormal" isn't it a good thing they are shown by default?12:46
tilmanmike_k: mmh, yeah, i think so12:46
cptntreach: it's mike_k's feature, he can decide12:47
treachI see. :x12:47
bd2don't beat me hard, but did core developer discussed multiarch crux already? ;-)12:47
* tilman beats bd2 hard12:47
* tilman and puts him on his ignore list12:47
Romsterta i'll try them out.12:47
mike_kcptn: I've get used to ports -u && ports -d    And never bothered to see that on 'prt-get's diff'.... only 'sysup' silence forced me to talk on that. Anyway - it's up for You to decide.12:48
cptnah, okay12:49
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mike_kI hope man page will remove any unsure moments... plus the prt-guide with examples on that new features12:50
Romsterimo, undecided sould just throw a 'undecided' warning?12:50
bd2tilman, I've just finally made bootable CRUX on arm arch. and now I'm just thought about how to keep it in sync in future12:51
tilmanbd2: did you read about nipuL's idea?12:51
Romsteron another topic are we going to move man pages to /usr/share/man ? Or keep the existing /usr/man12:51
bd2that is the question#1 to me. as I don't want to end up via danm way ;-)12:51
bd2tilman, no. is it on ideas page or in ml archives?12:52
tilmanhang on12:52
Romsterbd2, get a team of same arch users on crux and have them use svn.12:53
Romstermike_k, ta i never saw the outcome on that.12:53
bd2tilman, ahaha.. that is crazy, but should work. Have to learn whole sed syntax by heart ;-)12:54
Romstermike_k, thats the last i read of that.12:55
Romsterdon't give a defente answer but it points to /usr/man12:55
bd2"diff -U0 -b projects/crux-cross/target/glibc/Pkgfile /usr/ports/core/glibc/Pkgfile | wc -l" -> 75. it's hard to do such patch in sed ;-)12:57
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Romsterhmm gqview looks good.12:58
mike_kbd2: with one-two users of 'crux on arch' the maintainership migh be a pain13:01
cptnit really depends what the goals are13:03
cptnfor x86 crux, the idea is to provide ports for which we have a maintainer13:03
cptnbut not for everything outthere13:03
cptnif you apply the same for $OTHERARCH, this will work easily13:03
cptnif the goal is to offer all packages from core/opt/contrib, it'll require more manpower13:03
Romsterhmm interesting use of sed.13:03
cptnprobably more than 1-2 devs13:04
bd2tilman, cptn, is variant of including into Pkgfiles "if [ "$ARCH" = "..64" ]; then ... endif" absolutely unacceptable? (I'm just asking, it's not a purpose :)13:04
mike_kis it still a joy... even if the goal is a complete core/opt system for arm?13:04
cptnbd2: that was dismissed quite some time ago13:04
cptnthe PPC guys suggested that too13:04
cptnbd2: from the sparc port, what seemed hard really was to track the changes13:05
cptnnot doing the changes themselves13:05
bd2okay. I'll try GIT features for the such "diverged" project management. because it's hart todo with current svn13:06
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Romsterhmm i made a port that had the option for 64 bit system *hides after reading*13:06
Romsteras i'll have a amd64 evently.13:06
Romsterhard with svn O_o13:07
cptnbd2: the problem with git is that there's no "per developer" diff13:07
cptnas soon as you end up having more than two users working on it, it'll get a pain13:07
Romsterhave a look at bzr maybe.13:07
Romstergit is massive 100 commands, no thinks.13:07
Romstermy opinion anyways.13:07
cptnalways entertaining13:08
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bd2cptn, personally I'm thinking about "noarch" branch, which have pure skel of needed Pkgfile, and arch branches just adds their needs. (version=, release= changes happens in noarch branch and synced later to arch branches)13:08
Romsterif all cms used the same syntax like rdbm's did things wouldn't be so tricky to change from one to another.13:09
Romsterbd2, hmm.13:09
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cptnbd2: it's just that not all versions will work on all platforms13:09
cptnso you can't just update the "master branch" and send it to the users13:09
bd2cptn, that is okay, you can change version= in arch branch, it will just in "conflict" section in GIT.13:10
bd2in "virtual" GIT, the GIT I want to be it ;-)13:10
cptnalso, as soon as you start to use multiple archs13:10
cptnand merge from them, it'll get very messy13:10
cptnsince every arch can do small changes, like updating the maintainer field13:11
tilmanin 'virtual' git?13:11
bd2why? marges goes only in one way noarch -> arch. No backward merges13:11
cptnthe single arch dream13:11
bd2tilman, in imaginary git13:11
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cptn(single master arch)13:11
bd2cptn, yes.13:11
cptnso if you're the maintainer for noarch/gcc13:12
cptnyou'll have to test on your machine13:12
cptnand then update noarch manually13:12
cptn(since we don't merge arch -> noarch)13:12
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bd2cptn, that is the lesser evil13:13
Romsterhmm, template maybe, so sed can replace stuff easily.13:13
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cptnbd2: of the two13:14
bd2Romster, it's nightmare to track Pkgfiles if sed --expression if big enough.13:14
Romsterlots of smaller expressions.13:14
bd2Romster, add line?13:14
* Romster shrugs.13:14
tilmanhow does e.g. netbsd handle the arch issue?13:14
tilman(i don't know netbsd's ports system)13:15
mike_ktoolchain is a special thing anyway, and more testing won't hurt (especially having at least one man in noarch/core with a specific hardware)13:15
tilman(so this question might be very stupid :p)13:15
Romsterbd2, got some examples of what diffs you get.13:15
Romsterya can pastebin.13:15
cptnRomster: the point is that for ports like glibc, there will be so many changes that it's hard to understand13:16
cptnas diff or sed13:16
cptnmaking it prone to errors13:17
Romstertool chains are only done rarely though.13:17
Romsterso maybe _only_ the tool chain can use patch.13:17
bd2that is "reverse" patch, sorry. just tr "-" "+" :-)13:18
bd2heh. okay, I'll repaste :-)13:19
tilmanyou can apply reverse patches with "patch -R ..."13:19
bd2I know it, it's just hard to read it as now13:20
Romsterheh done that b413:20
Romstermost of that is patch lines...13:20
Romsteri've got a bit of a brain storm happening i'll jot some ideas down and see if there workable.13:21
bd2Romster, Cross Linux From Scratch (CLFS) is a mine of information :-)
Romsterneat i'll look at that13:23
* Romster gets a coffee first13:23
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Romstergood lord thats one hell of a glibc Pkgfile13:25
marocptn: you forgot the md5sums for prt-get :)13:27
bd2there are also gcc-cross and binutils-cross, and the gcc-cross-static, glibc-cross-static Pkgfiles... haha :-)13:27
cptnmaro: good catch13:27
marocptn: yeah, requires quite some talent to catch those ;-p13:28
* maro feels special13:28
Romsterbd2, if you needed anymore patches youd be best to use a for loop.13:28
bd2haha. right13:28
Romsteralso why use < when there is -i13:29
bd2a copy-paste I suppose13:29
tilmanRomster: dunno13:29
tilmanpersonal preference13:29
Romsterpatch -p1 -i file.patch13:29
tilmancat FOO.patch | patch -p1 -13:29
maro"useless use of cat" :P13:30
Romsteri've been using the -i argument. My only guess was patch never used to have '-i' so everyone piped it.13:30
Romsterlol maro13:30
maropatch -i has the big advantage that it shows what patch is being applied in the -x'ed subshell13:31
maro(in pkgmk that is)13:31
Romsteroh i found something interesting with rm and using {} brackets, if you do rm -fr $PKG/{usr/info, etc/pam.d} it won't work nor throw a error...13:32
maroso instead of meaningless lines like "+ patch -p1" you get "+ patch -p1 -i fix-stuff.patch"13:32
Romsteryet without the space in between the , 'comma' it worked fine.13:32
maroRomster: could that be because there's no "$PKG/ etc/pam.d"? :P13:32
Romsterwell there was on a port i messed with earlier.13:33
bd2"-f" -- don't throw errors13:33
Romsterah yes how silly of me lol13:33
Romsteri keep thinking of -f as force.13:33
marodo you build as root?13:33
Romsteras in answer y to all questions13:34
Romsteryeah i do.13:34
maroah ok, then never mind13:34
Romsterbut i use a dry run on make to make sure tings are ok b4 i let it loose.13:34
Romsteri shouldsetup a chroot for it.13:34
Romsteractaully better idea clone core, and only add ports that it is missing to get the dependencys right.13:35
Romster looks interesting todo this.13:36
Romstermight be able todo it with symlinks and chroot too maybe.13:37
Romsteri haven't learned taht far just yet.13:37
cptnthere another thing you haven't learned just yet:13:37
cptnthinking without typing it13:37
cptndon't get me wrong, but it's just not interesting13:38
Romsteryeah i should restrain myself somewhat.13:40
RomsterI'll try too. point taken.13:40
Romsteronly way to learn is if someone points out the mistakes.13:40
tilmanRomster: too much coffee? ;)13:40
Romsterlol dunno13:40
Romsteri do drink alot of it.13:41
bd2lol :-)))13:43
bd2just recalled Futurama (the cartoon) serie about Fry drinking 100 cups of coffee13:44
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Auge^/dev/rtc - which deamon or kernel option do i need for this feature?14:14
tilmandear lord14:15
Auge^dear til.14:15
Hangrep the .config for RTC14:16
Auge^ic, thx... mh... are there no options in menuconfig? or i am blind?14:18
tilmanof course there are14:19
tilmanslash rtc enter14:19
marocptn: haha :)14:19
maro"fix major error"14:20
Auge^its a little bit embarrassing for me =) thx til14:20
Auge^ok, tilman.14:20
maroAuge^: CONFIG_RTC=y14:21
Auge^configuration already done14:21
Romsterlol i just wont comment on what i was gonna type..14:43
treachjust meta commenting instead? :>14:43
Hancptn, I think prt-get should cheer if it updates itself. ;-)14:45
Romsterlol like when winblows dings :P14:46
Romsterbd2, hmm think i've got a neat solution to the arch problem, but it still requires patches for the said arch to be maintained. unless they can use sed.14:48
bd2Romster, what is that solution?15:11
Romsterits only an idea but it dosn't solve the patch problem part other than using a template then each arch has its own changes to make it work on there arch.15:15
cptnso you'd introduce an abstraction layer for ports15:15
Romsterbut thats more todo with the devs to accept patches into there program.15:16
Romsterpreaty much.15:16
cptnso every change which can be done has to be implemented for an arch15:16
Romsterpatches is where it gets unstuck. if you update the version on the template then each arch is updated but the patch problem is the thing,15:18
Romsterand i forgot what else i was about to type too15:18
Romsterah yeah arch dependent configure stuff just adds onto the non-arch template configure.15:19
cptnokay, there's a basic test for any multi-arch idea:15:19
Romsteri can see flaws in this already, if all programs didnt' have patches, then this would work.15:19
cptnis maintaining a Pkgfile as easy as it is now?15:19
cptnon either arch (assuming there's a master-slave setup)15:19
Romsterignoring the patch files for the moment, it be a matter of updating the template/master pkgfile, if any of the arch's fail then its then upto them to edit there arch Pkgfile.15:21
cptnjust answer my question:15:21
cptnfor any user, by looking at a Pkgfile, is it as easy to understand?15:21
cptnor does one have to understand templates and such?15:22
Romsteryes i can see it being easy, but there would need to be alterations to the pkgutils to build them, but to the most part it'll be transparant to the maintainer.15:22
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Romsteri was at first thinking of breaking it down into smaller functions, but i've had a better idea, of using a merging setup where the arch maintainer/user can see the pkgfile as it is seen now, for there arch but parts of the lines will be from the main template.15:24
Romsterif i'm making myself clear?15:24
Romsterthe engine side of it would take some thinking.15:25
Romsterif it is truely possable.15:25
Romsterbeing all on a CRUX system they the default paths set on a template would be right, no matter what arch they use, (except for some paths, but they'll be keept to there arch Pkgfile)15:26
RomsterI'd have to think it out and write how the process would work.15:26
cptnit sounds rather complicated to me15:28
Romsterbut the main killer would be the arch spefic patch files, unless there is away to get around the updated version of a program, and the patching, or just leat it break and then the arch maintainer fixes there own patches.15:28
Romsternot too sure on that part.15:28
Romsterto the end Pkgfile it'll look normal, but it'll be a merge of the template and there arch changes.15:29
cptnso in order to understand a broken Pkgfile, you have to understand the merge process15:30
tilmanfrigging openbox bug15:30
cptntilman: switch to BadWM then15:30
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cptnI heard it's good15:30
tilmani might15:30
drijengreetings all, longtime no see :(15:30
tilmanmaybe i'll also join the OB channel again and flame the guys15:31
tilman@seen drijen15:31
clbtilman: drijen was last seen in #crux 13 seconds ago: <drijen> greetings all, longtime no see :(15:31
Romsterhi drijen15:31
cptnhey drijen, yeah, we've been hiding15:31
tilmandrijen: wb :)15:31
drijenlast time i was here, i was screaming at han for 3 days straight15:31
drijentilman:  XD15:31
Romsterwell providing the underlying engine works as it should then its just as broken as a Pkgfile could be now.15:32
tilmandrijen: ah, i want to do that too from time to time :)15:32
cptnRomster: no, since if a Pkgfile is broken, you broke it15:32
cptnRomster: while in the "engine" situation, the engine would do it15:32
drijencptn: you never change :-p15:32
cptndrijen: should I? ;-)15:33
Romstera text editor or maybe html view on a web browser can show what parts are the template and what parts are there arch code from color.15:33
cptnthat sounds very good15:33
drijeni recall crux being built so well, that you had to intentionally screw with it to make it break15:33
cptnmaybe we can also port system-config-* from redhat?15:33
Romsterhmm yeah it dosn't make it fool proof for the template Pkgfile15:34
cptnit doesn't sound very tempting either that the tools required for understanding packages is a html viewer...15:34
RomsterI havent looked at redhat stuff :/15:34
* Han can't remember drijen 15:35
Romsteri did mess with mandrake many moons ago.15:35
* drijen gives han the look of death15:35
drijenhan: sudo pkg, catch 22, borked system15:36
drijenremember now :-p15:36
Romstercptn, well i would say vim but $EDITOR be better to say :)15:36
* drijen hates han some more15:36
* Han doubts drijen sanity15:36
* drijen passes han a beer for peace purposes15:36
Hansound plan15:37
* drijen opens bottle of vodka and shares with everyone15:37
Romsterchmod -x /usr/bin/chmod, syndrome :P15:37
* Han cheers15:37
Romsterso cptn doable?15:37
cptnRomster: ?15:37
HanRomster, gcc can also create executables ;-)15:37
Romsterusing a engine to combine the template and the arch Pkgfile as in a merge.15:38
RomsterHan, true.15:38
cptnRomster: it sounds way too complicated15:38
cptnbut try it if you're interested15:39
Romsterunderlying complication, but not to the person editing the Pkgfile.15:39
cptnyou introduce automatisms15:39
cptnerr, automatism15:40
cptnthat's why I compared your suggestions to redhat15:40
cptnsince they hide the way stuff works too15:40
HanRomster, install -m 755 /dev/null /bin/chmod_duh; cat /bin/chmod > /bin/chmod_duh; /bin/chmod_duh 755 /bin/chmod ; rm /bin/chmod_duh15:40
cptnRomster: once you've adjusted yourself to crux you'll understand that it's kinda a counter-goal to hide how things work here15:41
Romsterhan lol, forgetting install too? or does install just call chmod?15:41
Romsternever really understood that bit.15:41
Romsteryes i know the idea is KISS and all exposed.15:41
Hanerhm... install -m 755 /bin/chmod /bin/chmod_duh15:41
* Romster slaps Han15:42
HanRomster, install simply uses the chmod() syscall15:42
Romsterdamn you lol i should of looked at that closer.15:42
* drijen gives Romster a beer15:42
Romsterta drijen15:42
Romsterthen that leaves udev, as being not kiss cruxish.15:44
Hanit's not?15:44
Romsterbut out of force of removing devfs to move to udev.15:44
Hanudev is a lot simpler than devfs15:44
HanWith whom? :-)15:45
drijengod bless udev for independant devices15:45
Romstermarked as depreacated.15:45
drijenlol, 16 minutes of battery left,end of class15:45
drijeni win!15:45
Romsteri read a few people saying that leaves if udev is cruxish15:45
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Romsterheh drijen15:45
Romsterwell if i get my idea to work will that be simplifying, crux for multiple arch's15:46
brointhemixwhat do you mean by "arch"? ix6x, sparc, etc.?15:47
Romsterstill be in the KISS principal, normal KISS would be to jsut have seperate maintained ports repos.15:47
Romsteria32, ppc, sparc etc.15:47
treachbrointhemix: that would be i386. :P15:47
treachor x86.15:47
brointhemixtreach: true, true ;)15:48
bd2Romster, crux-devel@ subscribed? look at my "dirty" idea. it's simple as ABC, but have one small flaw.. ;-)15:48
brointhemixromster: thanks15:48
Romsterhmm, then again i got a k6 here thats i586 but i686 code dosn't work on it. its more a microcode instruction set revision, is not backwards compatable.15:49
Romsterhmm k15:49
Romsteryeah i'm on that ML15:49
* Han compiles all ports with -O2 -pipe. And nothing more,.15:49
HanWorks fine.15:49
cptnRomster: yeah, separate maintained port repos sounds good15:49
treachRomster: that's because k6 is too old to be i686 compatible..15:49
Auge^ahhhhh!!! with new kernel, new nvidia driver xawtv works really fine :)15:49
HanActually I would really like to convince everyone that release cds should be compiled like that.15:50
Hancptn, what do you think?15:50
cptnHan: you mean dropping the i686 arch?15:50
cptnI can't really comment on the gain15:51
HanNo, simply compiling for all archs15:51
cptnalthough I have no non-i686 compatible hardware myself15:51
Romster"playing with git merge, pull, push....." < rofl that sounds so wrong..15:51
cptnat least none that runs crux15:51
bd2Romster, why so?15:52
Hanhmm you run something else besides crux? =)15:52
cptnyeah, but don't tell anyone :-)15:52
Romstertreach, then explain the PII i got there thats slower but is i686 :/ maybe i'm missing the time line of when it was released.15:53
treachsince when does those two things necessarily depend on each other?15:54
RomsterHan, that *g* better not be gag!15:54
Romstermaybe the PII is newer I dunno i never keept track of the timeline of computers.15:54
HanNo it's the way dutch people giggle.15:55
Romsterah heh15:55
Romsterthats ok then.15:55
Romsterbd2, your ML post isnearly the idea i had with Pkgfiles and a rebuilt pkgutils.15:57
Romsterbd2's idea closely matches mine but i didn't intend to use subversion in my case.16:00
bd2heh.. just found another way in "dirty" way of dealing with arch-xyz -> you can't use version control. :-) But! There is an option: cd ~/arch-xyz (which is managed by svn) and issue "git init-db && find . -not -name ".git" | xargs git add"!! HAHA :-)16:00
bd2-another way+another+flaw16:00
tilmangit add .16:00
bd2tilman, will it add ".svn" ? the pun is that arch-xyz is managet by svn and git at the same time! ;-)16:01
bd2but it will work, though16:01
tilmanah, then the above was probably a typo16:01
tilmanthen it makes sense16:01
bd2tilman, ah. yes, thanks16:01
tilmanassuming the whole idea makes sense16:01
Romsterlol adding the .svn into git? now that could get quite messy16:02
bd2no, *not adding*16:02
bd2should be "find . -not -name ".svn" | xargs git add"16:02
tilmangit init-db && echo ".svn" > .gitignore && git add .16:03
Romstersomeone should branch git and call it fit :D16:03
bd2tilman, yep. I don't know git much right now. Just started using it few days ago16:03
Romsterdamn plovers going off out side.16:04
bd2I heard, that there is some way to change ".svn" name16:06
bd2in that case there is no need to have to vcs16:06
bd2ah. it needs recompilling, of course16:06
Romsterthats a crazy idea than mine i recken.16:07
bd2haha :-)16:07
bd2oh gosh. I promise I'll find  the plugin to an irssi which do spell checking. :-)16:09
Auge^anyone around with kernel and lirc? lirc build fails here :/16:16
brointhemixi'm currently building 17.1316:17
cptnworks for me16:17
brointhemixwow, done16:17
cptntry jw/lirc instead of contrib/lirc16:17
cptnit has extra patches to annoy maro16:17
cptnerrm, to build with >= 2.6.1616:17
* maro has nothing against required patches16:20
Auge^cptn: ok, i will. contrib/lirc fails.16:21
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tilmanfrigging openbox!!!16:30
tilmanit sometimes freezes when rdate updates the system clock16:31
tilman(which is every 30 minutes)16:31
treachmmh, that scratch getting itchy enough tilman? ;)16:31
tilmantreach: yes, it hit my 2 times already today!16:31
marosip: perhaps the non-core developers could become part of contrib as well, if the svn thing got through16:31
tilmanyou mean move opt stuff to contrib?16:32
treach(pardon the poor grammar)16:32
tilman(not noticed)16:32
sipmaro, I was more thinking of moving some stuff to contrib as tilman suggests16:32
marotilman: yeah, some of the opt stuff - think "optipng", not "postgresql"16:33
marosip: that's what I said :P16:33
tilmansip: i wasn't suggesting it16:34
maro"non-core developers" = those that currently only have access to opt16:34
tilmanwanted to see whether i understood him correctly ;p16:34
siptilman, I meant "suggested interpretation"16:34
maroand also some of the current core stuff could go into opt as well :)16:35
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sipanyway, sure, if some opt maintainer feels a port is a better candidate for contrib16:36
maroperhaps it could end up with everything in core and opt being on the cd as packages when they're trimmed down16:36
tilmanit's on the list16:36
sipmaro, yes, moving some port from core to opt was planned too16:36
cptnbut opt <-> contrib really is a quality difference16:37
cptnit's not about how important a port is necessarily16:37
sipyes, a good rule is to keep in opt stuff you really use, no matter how 'mainstream' it is16:39
marohow many ports do the "developers" have in contrib?16:40
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sipmaro, I'm not sure I understand the question16:41
maroof the people that have ports in opt, how many do also have ports in contrib?16:41
cptnerr, seven16:43
sebellHmm.. can anybody recommend a good cdparanoia+lame+CDDB frontend? (or equivalent)16:44
sebellThanks, I'll give it a shot16:45
cptnasunder is pretty nice too16:45
maroI guess I just think of opt in the way it was back when per maintained it16:47
cptnwhatever wasn't base but maintained by those with commit access?16:47
sipsebell, if you try asunder you may want this patch:
tilmani should release my ripper app16:49
tilmanit rocks your socks off16:49
maroyeah, and back then the number of people with commit access pretty much equals today's "core developers", yes? :)16:49
tilmanit equaled 116:50
tilmanonly The Per maintained opt16:50
marobut today, in my head, The Per is the core developers16:50
marothat is, the people who maintain the stuff that matters for everybody16:51
sipat the end the user get what's on the iso, so no much difference here16:51
tilmanmaro: well, not quite16:51
marosip: yep, what I'm saying is that if contrib had the nice svn service, there'd be less of an argument for keeping a shitload of packages (probably only used by their maintainers) in opt16:53
sipwell, it's also a matter of trust.16:53
maronot as much if people are expected to subscribe to crux-commits16:53
cptnmaro: well, the goal of crux is to be a good distro for its developers16:53
cptnso whatever the devs maintain is by definition relevant for opt16:54
tilmanmaro: they aren't, wtf?16:54
tilmanhow many people are subscribed to crux-commits?16:54
cptnI am, too :-)16:55
marosip: obviously anyone who ever do something questionable should be kicked emmidiately16:55
tilmanmaybe i should rephrase16:55
tilman"... people who aren't working on core/opt..."16:55
maroand since we happen to be at least 2 people who care enough about crux to eyeball the changes, they will be cought :)16:55
tilmanwith "people" you mean the core/opt developers?16:56
marotilman: when/if contrib joins in, it'd make sense to expect members of contrib to also subscribe16:56
tilmanof course16:57
sipmaro, this may be true or not, since I don't really know contrib people16:57
tilmanor rather16:57
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tilmani'm not commenting on this now ;)16:57
tilmani don't think it needs to be enforced16:57
marono! not at all :)16:57
maro*expected* - like I'm expected to run rejmerge once in a while16:58
marobad example16:58
marobetter one: like I'm expected to update my ports16:58
maroalso I'd vote for cleaning up contrib if it entered svn17:00
maroat least I'd clean up the things I export17:00
sipthat's a good thing17:01
bd2hehe. and in community repo you can write into Pkgfile smth like "# Take off your dirty arms from my port!", or.. "# Please, if you found that my port outdated, feel free to update". dreams dreams...17:02
treachotoh, if you don't like grubby paws on your ports, maybe you should keep them in a private repo. *shrugs*17:03
marobd2: it should be an implicit rule that you don't touch ports that don't belong to you (or your group, imagine a gnome with more than one maintainer...)17:03
sipI think it's up to the contributors to decide the policy17:04
sipie: if a security update is available, one could silently update another's port17:04
marosip: exactly!17:04
bd2maro, yea.. good idea. Implicit rule. But packager may want to permit some help with updating17:04
treachwb tilman, ob strikes again? :-)17:05
marobd2: yeah, I imagine that someone interested in e.g. mpd would probe me about something he wanted from it, and if it seems sane, the next time I'd tell him "feel free to do commit yourself" or some such :)17:06
tilmanmessing with the ddx driver this time17:06
tilmanone major issue left to solve17:06
tilmanand it just won't work17:06
tilman(not a crasher bug, just trying weird things :D)17:06
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siptime to sleep. bye!17:15
cptnbye sip17:15
tilmannight sip17:16
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brointhemixok, on :)17:18
brointhemixfeels great :)17:18
brointhemix(although nothing really changed)17:19
tilmanso it feels as great as before?17:19
brointhemixnah, it feels more great :)17:19
tilmanalthough nothing really changed?17:20
brointhemixbecause it's new, it's faster, it's better :)17:20
brointhemixyea :)17:20
tilmanyou're a linux newbie, right?17:20
brointhemixit's called psychological effect :)17:20
treach"placebo effect"17:21
brointhemixand about being a linux newbie - i started to actively use linux this winter17:21
* deus_ex wonders when will be released17:21
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brointhemixalthough i mostly knew what's what a long time before actually starting yo use it17:22
j^2hey all17:22
* brointhemix says: the soonet rhe better! :)17:22
brointhemixhey j^217:22
bd2I'm still at
bd2and the second computer at yeah, that is what I'm good at - lazyness :-)17:23
deus_ex2.6.17.1 me.I'm lazy, too ;)17:23
brointhemixbd2: you should definitely upgrade if it's not a production system - the feeling is worth it :)17:23
j^2brointhemix: yo17:23
bd2hehe :-)17:24
tilmanit's been a while since i've read such silly things here17:24
deus_exbrointhemix: you tried ck patchset yet?17:24
brointhemixtilman: c'mon, 24/7 seriousness is bad for health :)17:24
brointhemixdeus_ex: what's that?17:24
treach :D17:26
deus_exTry it, you might like it.17:27
brointhemixdeus_ex: "with specific emphasis on the desktop" <- i'm not using my CRUX for my desktop17:28
bd2deus_ex, hey! I'm visitor number 888888!!! :-))17:28
deus_exThere is a server version, too.17:29
deus_exbd2: You might have won something :)17:29
bd2ckolivas is a rich person? ;-)17:29
deus_exNah, doctor.17:30
brointhemixdeus_ex: did you notice any improvement while using it?17:30
deus_exDentist, I think.17:30
deus_exbrointhemix: Yes, I've been using it for quite some time, since 2.6.7, I think.17:31
deus_exIt's been a while since I used vanilla kernel, though.17:31
brointhemixdoes it make sense to use it on a gateway/router + 24/7 torrent downloading box?17:32
brointhemixoh, and an occasional quake 2/3 server17:33
deus_exHmm, check out server version, that might be suitable for it.17:33
brointhemixwill do, thanks for the tip :)17:34
deus_exspreading the word ::)17:35
brointhemixhihi :)17:35
bd2 - heh.. No, I'm not 888888 visitor, it's elinks bugging17:35
brointhemixok, time to hit the bed17:36
deus_exPerfect Christmas present :)17:36
deus_exbrointhemix: Good night.17:37
brointhemixgood night, everybody :)17:37
deus_exbd2: ff can't open png, opera opens little of it(top 20 percent or so).wtf?17:40
deus_exIs png format that difficult to parse?17:40
tilmanwhat do you mean, it "can't open" the png?17:41
deus_extilman: Can not show it.17:41
bd2deus_ex, haha. I've done optpng on it. Have no problems viewing it with display/elinks/konqueror17:42
tilmandeus_ex: it displays an error instead?17:42
deus_exopera shows little of it.17:42
cptnit works fine in firefox here17:42
cptnjust had to safe it first, due to the mime type17:43
deus_extilman: It shows nothing, and tehn it brings up 'open with...' menu.17:43
tilmanwell, what cptn said17:44
cptnI've seen merrier desktops though :-)17:44
deus_excptn: You are right, mime type for it here is bin file.17:44
deus_exIt should be what?17:44
treachcptn: I first thought it was one of aon's :p17:44
tilmancptn: indeed17:45
treachthen I saw the xmastree terminal. :p17:45
bd2haha lol. it's not xmastree terminal, it's tabs! ;-) and little colored ps1 :-)17:46
treachbd2: Just kidding, aon is known as a mortal enemy to anything colourful :p17:48
deus_extilman: FF uses ~/.mime.types and /etc/mime.types, accoring to about:config.17:48
tilmanthe _server_ announces the mime-type17:49
bd2deus_ex, it's just service is buggy17:49
tilmanin this case, it's sending application/octet-stream i guess17:49
tilmantoo lazy to verify :p17:49
bd2unfortunately I don't know any other service, that will not promt you to enter something from an image (it will prompt you in russian, of course :-)17:49
bd2yep, "Content-Type: application/octet-stream"17:50
deus_exOh.Its nice to see I didn't fsck something up(for change) :)17:50
bd2I didn't find where to put filename on Too complicated site :-)17:51 gives a form at the index page17:52
tilmanuse imageshack.us17:52
bd2aaaahh..  lol17:53
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bd2that is funny indeed. I've searched all to put my file, I almost depressed when I could not send it, but others can :-)17:54
deus_exNow, it works.17:54
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bd2thanks, I remember it now17:55
tilmanthe .com is probably an evil rip-off17:55
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deus_exWow, bed time.18:02
deus_exGood night, all.18:02
tilmannight deus_ex18:02
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treach   ..brains are optional.18:38
bd2"Hello, you either have JavaScript turned off or an old version of Macromedia's Flash Player. Click here to get the latest flash player." - and I *don't* want to install flash player. dammit dammit dammit, I hate these new technologies, flashes, ajax, whatnot. Why these serivces do not give just url to the file?18:43
tilmanajax only requires javascript in your browser :)18:43
tilmanit's not that bad!18:43
bd2I don't have javascript in elinks. ;-) the best sites is browseable using elinks (BASICS!!) --, for example ;-)18:44
tilmannight guys18:45
treachbd2: prt-get info youtube ;)18:45
treach(if you have Han's repo that is. )18:46
bd2%-O A special app for youtube! I'm not alone who hate these techs, but someone was brave enough to write an app18:47's a python script..18:47
bd2but it's still an application..? :-)18:47
treach*scratches head* I've no idea, I guess it depends on how you define "application"18:48
bd2the thing that make-that-stuff-work :-)18:49
treachah. Kernel -> application ;)18:49
bd2yea.. an application to my computer, and computer is an application to myself. it's all about applications18:50
bd2the only application I miss is the brains.. hehe. okey, I'm shutting up and goes sleep18:52
treachmh, good idea.18:52
treachgood night everyone.18:52
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prologicQ: How does the Nokia 6280 fair with Linux ?19:51
Romsterdunno, but i just got a usb 512MB drive and gonna see if ic an get it to work.20:01
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