IRC Logs for #crux Saturday, 2007-01-27

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_mavrick61HI is there anyone who backing up the Crux server?02:55
prologicgive me root access and I'll  back it up :)02:56
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tilman_mavrick61: dunno, but simone would know03:01
Romsterprologic, lol03:19
prologicI was being serious03:20
prologiccpio it to my data box with raid storage03:20
Romstershould be backed up already.. if they know whats good for them.03:21
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tilman@seen maro03:29
clbtilman: maro was last seen in #crux 3 weeks, 2 days, 14 hours, 21 minutes, and 8 seconds ago: <maro> :)03:29
jizzbottilman: maro was last seen in #crux 4 weeks, 2 days, 12 hours, 15 minutes, and 25 seconds ago: <maro> (mesa 6.5.2 builds it fine)03:29
prologicso was he seens 3 weeks ago or 4 ? :)03:30
tilmanit's good to see jizzbot and clb are roughly equally retarded anyway03:32
tilmanjdolan: and why exactly do we need two supybots here?03:33
rxi_what happened to the 3rd?03:33
prologiclet's have a 4th :) why not!03:36
rxi_hopefully its more accurate than our american brothers :P03:37
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_mavrick61There is a general backup script in /etc/cron/daily/backup just add new lines for desire folders to backup. Then it will beackup up to our local backup server.04:21
mike_kmaro: would you like to extend memtest86+ port a little?
_mavrick61FYI: This is how our system looks like if any one is interested.
prologicgot a jpeg version of that ?05:00
tilman_mavrick61: can you email simone about your backup suggestion?05:04
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maromike_k: why would someone want a port for the iso instead of just downloading it from the website?05:58
mike_kNot a port for iso, but a generic port with iso included. Also saves some traffic.05:59
mike_knp, reject that.05:59
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mike_kprologic: here is an ugly png version
mike_kand btw,;a=commitdiff;h=f2e3cb3ec8f36a5b8d3abbe8b0eab1e4c2fafccf shows new file, but source array does not contain that...07:20
mike_kand update106.tar.gz also exist and works for me07:20
prologicmike_k, I didn't want it in the source array07:23
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prologicthose patches are just hard to find :)07:23
mike_keh, git tree contains them, but a rsync's contrib does not07:25
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prologicreally ?07:31
prologicmust it exist in the source array for it to sync to contrib's rsync repo ?07:32
prologicbecause without it being in there, it sync okay on all my systems07:32
mike_khardly it's related to the source array07:32
prologiceven with httpup syncs07:32
prologicmust be something else07:33
prologicI'll check that it's actually in the git repo :)07:33
mike_kit is07:33
prologicI have nfi then :)07:33
prologicand yeah it's there07:33
mike_kI don't know if git is exported/copyed to rsync in simple way on that box07:35
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jdolanhappy tilman :>08:22
rxi_dont mind us paying out your bot08:24
treachjdolan: In case you missed it, here's a break for you to ease the pain. :p
tilman@seen treach08:26
clbtilman: treach was last seen in #crux 1 minute and 48 seconds ago: <treach> jdolan: In case you missed it, here's a break for you to ease the pain. :p
tilman@seen maro08:26
clbtilman: maro was last seen in #crux 2 hours, 27 minutes, and 44 seconds ago: <maro> mike_k: why would someone want a port for the iso instead of just downloading it from the website?08:26
jdolanhah, nice beat boxing.08:28
treachI'm currently playing with the idea to link /bin/sh to dash instead of bash..08:30
treachany thoughts on that except that it probably will break the rc-stuff in a bunch of places?08:31
treachfrom my, admittedly naive testing, dash looks like it's about half the size and twice as fast as bash/zsh08:32
prologicit does brea kthe rc scripts08:34
prologicI tried the other day08:34
prologicand I could not redirect stdout and stderr to /dev/null08:34
prologicanything in the man page about redirections don't work as expected :/08:35
prologicand I have a port for it (if you haven't)08:35
treachwell, stdout to /dev/null seems to work ok here..08:35
prologic$ pkgsize dash08:35
prologicTotal kilobytes for dash : 11208:35
prologic$ pkgsize bash08:35
prologicTotal kilobytes for bash : 74808:35
prologicyes of course08:35
prologicyou can direct one or the other08:35
prologicbut not both it seems08:35
treachno worries, I've got a port already.08:35
prologiceven though the man page says you can combine the fd's by using [n1]<&n208:36
prologicaccording to that you should be able to do 1<&208:36
prologicbut that don't work either :)08:36
prologicother than that, I was able to patch all the rc scripts okay to work with dash quite easily08:37
prologicwith a bootable system08:37
treachbtw I used pmap and some simple timeings to compare.08:38
prologicjust looked ugly when starting the services :)08:38
prologicpmap ?08:38
prologicif you like I can redo all my dash work :) and send you patches08:39
prologicI abondoned it when I couldn't do the redirctions ;/08:39
treachthat would be cool :)08:39
prologicI'll get ti work08:39
prologicneed to re-install bart :)08:39
prologicas long as you can work out how to redriect both stdout/stderr to /dev/null08:46
prologicI can re-complete this :)08:46
prologicI was bored the other day! got a crux install down to 120M08:46
treachI'm looking into it.08:46
prologicman installing crux is soo boring :)08:48
treachfound this so far.. [see "7."]08:48
treachlooking at ubuntu might be a good idea btw, since they alread do this.08:48
prologicI know08:49
prologicdoes >& work in dash ?08:50
prologicbad fd08:50
treachyah that's what they in the link.08:51
treachapparently "> file 2>&1" is the way to go, where "file" is some temp-file08:51
prologicthat actually works08:52
prologic$./ > /dev/null 2>&108:52
treachwhee. power of google. :)08:52
prologicwhy couldn't I figure that one out :) *sigh*08:52
prologicmore experience than i :)08:52
prologicanyway I can complete the patches to rc now08:53
prologiconce this installs08:53
treachgoogle has more experience than *anyone* I think. It might actually even beat han. ;)08:53
prologictoo bad the man page never said anything about > file 2>&108:54
prologicwhy do we need so many agetty proceses urnning ?08:54
treachone for each vt08:54
prologicI usually only run 1 :)08:55
treachit seems traditional to set up at least 6 vt's for some reason.08:55
treachI usually have 2. One for normal useage, and the other one for testing purposes.08:56
prologicoh well08:57
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prologicalmost done here :)08:57
treachnice. :)08:58
prologicpatches everything I remember changing anyway - used latest git wc08:58
prologicjust waiting for bart, boot it, pkgadd dash, pkgadd new-rc :) and reboot08:58
prologicwatch it blow up :)08:58
treachheh, get cd, boot cd, start fixing. :P08:59
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prologictoo lazy09:00
prologicuse qemu :)09:01
treachI'm using it as my "ExecUseShell", so I figured I could utilise it a bit more.09:02
treachI wonder what pkgmk & friends would make of it..?09:03
prologicnot sure09:05
prologicI could patch all that too if you wanted09:05
prologicI never went that far :)09:05
treachI'll leave that for your discretion for now.09:06
treachsomeone else might have something wise to bring to the table as well. :)09:07
prologicaren't we doing a pkgutils in C ?09:08
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prologicthough last I looked it's all in C++ :/09:08
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treachI'm actually not very up to date on that. Not even sure if there is anything public.09:09
prologicwell it's public in the sense I can git it :)09:09
prologicbut I don't think it's completed09:10
prologicthere's been no updates for months either09:10
bd2officially, no. but you can grab latest pkgutils-c
prologicis this in C or C++ ?09:10
prologicdifferent from pkgutils.git ?09:11
bd2also git tree "git clone git://"09:11
bd2prologic, it's complete C rewrite (except pkgmk, as Per purposed)09:11
treachOk, I don't do git. I'm satisfied with some voyeurism wrt peopel who try. :)09:11
prologicnow this I like :)09:12
prologicpure C :)09:12
prologicwho's developing this ?09:12
treachbd2: that's not the same as tilman has been working on, is it?09:12
prologicand I think I have the tree you've mentioned already09:12
bd2prologic, me and maro, so far09:12
prologiccan I join :)09:12
prologictreach, no it's not09:12
bd2treach, nope.. I haven't seen tilman's work09:12
bd2but I've tried to get "drafts" before I've started pkgutils-c09:13
prologicbart booted :)09:19
treachbd2: wasn't meant as criticism. Just making sure I remembered correctly.09:19
treachprologic: Joy. :)09:19
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mike_kI should setup some (virtual) box, name it buster, like mythbusters have... and test bleeding edge there09:23
prologicsow amaazing09:23
prologicrc.shutdown worked :)09:23
prologicwow amazing09:24
prologicit works :)09:24
ningowhat is even more amazing is that power down _WORKS_ on my openbsdbox09:24
prologicspose you want the patches now :)09:25
prologic"git diff" okay for you ?09:25
treacherr, does that mean I have to deal with git?09:25
prologicprobably not09:25
treachok, send them over, if I can't make head or tail of them, I'll give a hoot. :P09:26
treachYou should probably change the maintainer ;p09:27
prologicI just did it for you09:27
prologicunless this is going to be included in 2.3 :)09:27
treachit's ok, I was just kidding. :)09:28
treachI'll look it through later, it's getting time to get some kind of dinner organized here.09:28
treachI'll give briefing later. :P09:29
prologicaye bd2 I'd like to help you guys out with pkgutils-c if there's still more to do :)09:29
* prologic compiles it09:29
treachprologic: btw, "echo -n" is supposed to be substituted with "printf \n" if I got things right.09:34
prologicahh yes of course09:34
prologicsorry forgot :)09:34
prologicactually just "\n" will work too09:35
prologicI'll fix that09:35
treachiirc printf is kind of standard. I could be wrong, but I don't think so.09:36
treachanyhow, afk.09:36
prologicoh hang on09:36
prologicecho -n is suppose to _not_ print the trailing \n09:36
prologichmm I'm confused now09:38
prologicecho is /bin/echo - nothing to do with dash09:38
prologicas such echo -n should will work fine09:38
treachthere are two echo iirc09:39
prologicthere are ?09:39
prologicI only see the one in coreutils09:39
treachone internal to bash, and then the one you found.09:39
prologicahh yeap09:40
prologicbut if bash isn't b eing used, then /bin/echo will be used right ?09:40
prologicand it supports -n09:40
prologicso all good :)09:40
treachthen you're working with presumptions.09:40
prologicmost likely09:41
prologicsorry :/09:41
prologicwhat should echo -n be changed to ?09:41
treachI'm currently trying to figure that out.09:41
treachbecause afaict, the posix standard says, since 2004, that /bin/sh "shalt take no arguments".09:42
bd2prologic, pkgutils-c is pretty finished now.. just few issues stayed (related to libarchive, actually)09:42
treachdoh, echo, I mean09:42
bd2prologic, also.. don't forget to rejmerge after you'll upgrade to pkgutils-c.09:43
prologicwell it currently still does take arguments09:43
prologicbd2, ok09:43
bd2 - Pkgfile I use09:44
prologicany plans to include it in 2.3 ?09:45
bd2no, afaik09:46
prologicget it included :)09:47
treachprologic: btw, printf "\n" doesn't print the "n", but it leaves an entire blank line instead.09:48
prologicdoes pkgutils-c return unique error codes for abortions ?09:48
prologictreach, yeah that's what it's suppose to do :)09:48
prologicprintf will print formatted text09:48
prologicecho -n suppresses the trialing \n which be default echo will do09:49
prologicprintf by default prints no trialing \n09:49
prologicso your original statement of replacing echo -n with printf would work09:49
bd2prologic, yes, sort of.. exit(1) on db/fs/perms conflicts and abort() on errors.09:50
treachprologic: I think we're not quite talking about the same thing.09:51
prologicwell in order to build a graphical prt-get of sorts, (spoke to Per a couple of years back now about this!), pkgmk/pkgrm/pkgadd would need to return unique error codes for anything that could go wrong :)09:51
prologictreach, no we're not :)09:51
prologicI'm lost :/09:52
* prologic reads up09:52
treachprologic: just try it out instead, and you'll see what I'm talking about09:52
prologic<treach> prologic: btw, "echo -n" is supposed to be substituted with "printf \n" if I got things right. <-- that makes no sense :/09:52
treachthat's why I wrote "if I got things right".. :P09:53
prologicso you got me confused the whole time deliberately :)09:53
treachno, it wasn't deliberate09:53
prologicheh it's ok09:53
prologicbut according to the POSIX standards, I should replace "echo -n" with "printf" :)09:53
prologicright ?09:53
prologicsince echo should accept no arguments09:54
treachI'm pretty confused by this right now, because one of the major problems with replacing bash with dash is supposedly this "echo -e problem".09:54
prologicahh yes true09:54
treachand pretty much everywhere I look it's suggested that printf is the solution.09:55
prologicdash's built-in echo doesn't understand -e09:55
prologicso we use printf09:55
treachright, but I'm still trying to figure out how to get the same result.09:56
guaquawhy not make up cash, Crux A for no reason Shell09:56
guaquawhy not make up cash, Crux A for no reason SHell09:57
prologicbrilliant idea09:58
prologicI'll fork off dash :)09:58
treachprologic: I you run printf \n in bash it's equivalent to echo -n09:58
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treachbut if you run printf \n in dash it's not equivalent to running the same in bash.09:58
treachmaybe it's just me missing something. :-/09:59
treachok? It builds the computer while I'm waiting?10:01
prologicboth work the same for me10:02
prologicboth achieve the same thing "suppressing the trailing \n"10:03
prologicleast on my box10:03
treachone moment.10:03
treachprologic: this is what I get.
treachnotice that "printf \n" doesn't quite give the right result?10:08
prologicare you saying it seems to be ignoring "format" ?10:11
treachno, I'm saying it prints a new line and then prints the "n" part of \n, and then finishes.10:12
treachwhich is kinda strange in my books..10:13
prologicbut that only happens if you do: printf \n10:13
prologicvs. printf "\n"10:13
prologicperhaps the format needs to be in quotes ?10:14
treachbut "\n" is not equivalent to "echo -n"10:14
treachit gives an additional blank line10:14
treach(I haven't added those in the paste, those were printed that way.)10:15
prologicbtw if you remove bash10:15
prologicyou would need to patch udev as well10:15
prologicand possibly pkg-utils (unless you use pkgutils-c and just patch pkgmk)10:16
prologicnot sure what else :)10:16
treachI know, a lot of stuff is based on the assumption that you're using bash.10:16
treachhopefully ubuntu will get enough users screaming bloody murder at these people to make a difference. :)10:17
ningoI hate that too.10:18
prologicI find dash a bit annoying though10:18
prologicdoesn't understand ^L or TAB :)10:18
treachprologic: standard compliant stuff usually *is* annoying, haven't you noticed? :p10:19
treachthat's a large part of why the solaris userland is about as much fun as going to the dentist.10:19
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prologic/etc/profile shouldn't be in the bash port10:21
prologicshould be in filesystem perhaps10:21
henawell, /etc/profile is a bit bash related10:21
treachnot really.10:21
treachit's *sh* related.10:22
henaalso, not only10:22
henabut if it's in general scope, it's all shells realted10:22
treachaye, and some of the stuff in it is obviously bash specific.10:23
treachhence the root prompt in dash looks like crap.10:23
henaif it needs to be added somewhere, it's the shells that support it10:24
henaotherwise it just leads to bloat10:24
treachI'd agree with the point that /etc/profile probably should be the "smallest common denominator" or however you'd like to put that. But OTOH, bash *is* the default shell for crux..10:26
treachs smallest/lowest10:26
* guaqua and the bash_profile10:26
guaquawhat's kiss here?10:27
treachleaving it alone, probably :P10:27
guaquaadapting dash is not kiss10:27
guaquait's gentoo10:27
henaactually, it's debian ;)10:27
treachwell, it's basically more standard compliant for one thing.10:28
henawell, bash has a fully posix complian sh10:28
prologicand smaller10:28
prologicans faster10:28
treachalso, is it "kiss" to use a truck when you go shopping?10:28
guaquawell, bad from the simplicity standpoint10:28
henabut dash is fasterm if you wanna look at it like that10:28
henabut having dash by default would mean wider "by default" shell selection10:29
henadash is good when you have (t)csh10:29
prologic"install your favourite shell" :)10:29
henai just don't see the point of having ash AND dash10:30
henasry, dash10:30
guaquaimo this shouldn't be an issue. why not make the dash port have a special /etc/profile and we wouldn't have to change existing stuff10:30
henawell, dash is meant for scrtipting only anyways10:30
henaat least it WAS supposed to be that10:31
treachguaqua: the problem is that there are MORE shells that use that damned file.10:31
guaquatreach: dprofile10:31
guaquamight aswell, there's zprofile already. i don't see a problem with it...10:31
prologiclet's just not have a profile :)10:31
guaquaaprofile you say? :)10:32
prologicrm /etc/profile10:32
treach"This is a small elite community, make your own goddamned profile, mkay?"10:32
henathat's a bad idea10:32
guaquarm -rf /etc/10:32
henathe idea of general configuration and user specific conf is a good idea10:33
prologicwell in any case I have a fully working crux 2.2 that uses dash in all boot-up scripts10:33
prologicand looks exactly the same as the original bootup :)10:33
henawell, that's not a bad idea10:33
henawell, things are not that simple10:34
henai'll leave out of it10:34
prologictreach, shall I patch the bashish pkgutils now :)10:34
prologicmay as well!10:34
treachprologic: yes, I'll have a lookie at that later, I guess the "echo" issue is deferred until further notice. ;)10:34
treachprologic: only if you feel like it. Gotta leave now.10:35
treachhave fun. :)10:35
bd2are you using dash as default user's shell?10:35
guaquai'm fine with any default shell...10:36
prologicI am on this box (bart)10:36
bd2prologic, how long? :-)10:36
guaquabash works fine, zsh can be a pain if it doesn't support ctrl+d10:36
prologicbased off a crux-2.2-latest install10:36
prologicit seems that this iso uses your pkgutils-c :)10:36
prologicumm no I use bash on my desktop :)10:37
prologicI can't live without my colors and tab completion and ^L :)10:37
prologicwow this is great10:37
bd2then I don't get why you want put two shells into system, instead of just one ;-)10:37
prologicyour pkgutils-c is actually on the latest iso that jaeger builds and maintains10:37
prologicthe crux-2.2-latest.iso10:37
prologicI dind't know :)10:37
bd2prologic, you kidding me10:38
prologicbart is now a full crux 2.2 box with no bash anywhere to be seen :)10:38
prologicpkgrm bash :)10:38
henabash is good mmm'kay10:38
* bd2 downloading crux-2.2-latest10:39
bd2crux-2.2-latest.changelog don't say anything about pkgutils-c..10:40
prologicwhy then is every /usr/bin/pkg{add,rm,info,mk} all ELF binaries :)10:42
prologicthey are on my desktop too - strange10:42
bd2not sure.. ldd /usr/bin/pkgadd ?10:42
bd2ugh.. won't work if static10:42
tilmanpkgadd, pkgrm, pkginfo have never been written in bash...10:43
prologic$ ldd /usr/bin/pkgadd10:43
prologic        not a dynamic executable10:43
prologictilman, really ?10:43
bd2prologic, yup10:43
prologicI thought they were once upon a time10:43
bd2the only bash scripts are pkgmk and rejmerge10:43
prologicor am I dreaming :)10:43
rehabdollmaybe youre using han's port of pkgutils or something10:44
bd2prologic, probably Han's pkgutils is written in sh.. not sure though10:44
rehabdollthey were in contrib for a while10:44
tilmanthat rogue crack version doesn't count10:44
prologicok I was dreaming nevermind10:45
prologicmaybe I was thinking of the ports system being written in sh10:45
prologicso why do we need another pkgutils-c if pkgutils is currently already writtein in C ?10:45
bd2prologic, pkgutils written in C++10:46
prologicmake senese now :)10:46
bd2also it have at least two "security" flaws :-)10:46
rehabdollbtw prologic, your bind port needs updating10:48
prologicgee :)10:49
prologicI should use ck4up :)10:49
rehabdollor subscribe to their announce-ML :)10:50
guaquabtw...what's the reason for writing the tools in c?10:51
prologicI can think of several :)10:52
guaquaharder for a script kiddie to do harm?10:58
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prologicless overheads, higher performance10:59
prologicmore portable (perhaps) :)10:59
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bd2the main reason of rewrite pkgutils in C is my own disease, of course. The NIH syndrome ;-)11:11
bd2the second reason is that pkgutils-c is 80 columns aware, in contrast to c++ish pkgutils. ;-)11:13
mike_kthe code is smart enough to format itself for vt100 terminal? =)11:14
bd2no. code is dumb and buggy, but vim is smart enough to display column number when I typing it :-)11:15
tilmanthat's a fucking awesome reason to switch to pkgutils-c right NOW11:15
bd2tilman, I'm not yet sure if I'd like to but NIH or 80-columns reason to first place. probably 80-columns reason will be first, yes :-)11:17
prologichow about the fact that pkgutils-c has a smaller footprint11:37
prologicbd2, what was the link to that Pkgfile again ?11:38
prologicI'm gonna start using it11:38
bd2libarchive is in contrib. but I use a bit newer version + own patch, which will be in next libarchive release. maro seems a bit busy with applying that patch into contrib's libarchive11:46
prologicoh ic11:47
bd2I can email it11:47
prologicwhat will be broken currently ?11:47
prologicand yeah send me the patch please :)11:47
prologichmm timeouts connecting to the ftp server pkgutils-c is on11:48
bd2was working hour ago. it's not mine host. :-/11:49
bd2I can send it with libarchive patch. 345 kb is okay to send?11:49
prologicI'll chuck pkgutils-c's archive in too :)11:54
bd2sent to prologic %
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prologicdo I need to pkgrm pkgutils before installing ?12:06
prologic(old) pkgutils: 1.2M12:08
prologicpkgutils-c: 700K12:08
bd2nope. just "pkgmk -u" inside libarchive, then pkgmk -u inside mine pkgutils. then rejmerge (/etc/pkgadd.conf syntax changed a bit, quotes are mandatory now)12:08
bd2I've recently updated pkgadd.8 manpage. there is info on pkgadd.conf changes and -p option12:09
bd2to not bother with permissions conflicts (which is pretty regular even in core&opt), you can change /etc/prt-get.conf, uncomment "addcommand" line and add -p option to pkgadd12:14
prologicargg fuck12:16
prologicaccidently hit k a few times12:16
prologicbd2, can rejmerge use less instead of more :) ?12:26
bd2prologic, I think it's better to teach it to look into $PAGER variable, and if not found then fallback to "more"12:28
prologicdoes it do that ?12:28
bd2nope, not yet12:29
bd2I can do it a bit later, if don't beat me to it12:30
prologicbeaten you :)12:30
prologicpatch sent (git diff)12:36
bd2prologic, got it. Thanks, will apply. One question though: is export mandatory, or I can remove it/replace with "readonly"?12:41
prologicI don't think so :)12:41
prologicreadonly should be fine12:41
bd2tested, works great. applied to my tree, will push to crux-arm host when it will up12:53
bd2PAGER="less -E" is useful (makes less exit immediatly when there is just one page to display)12:55
guaquawhat's wrong with my music12:57
guaquaamarok is skipping a few hundred milliseconds at times12:57
guaquaso the tempo is changing all the time12:57
prologicbd2, ahh cool :)12:57
bd2ugh.. less -F is much useful13:06
bd2prologic, I'd suggest you to send that patch (with s/export/readonly/) to crux-devel. it's pretty "right thing" to do in stock pkgutils too13:14
prologicknow the url to the crux-devel ml ?13:18
prologicI need to re-subscribe :)13:18
bd2yeah, that link is pretty conspired.. I was always wondering why :-) to find it, you need to go through announcement on the news page13:21
bd2i.e. no direct link on
prologichmm ic13:23
prologicone should be added :)13:23
prologicI have access to the wiki - but maybe there's a reason it's not listed13:24
prologicapparently I'm already on CRUX-COntrib - tried to resubscribe thinking I was'nt on it13:25
prologicand umm ... how come my CRUX-Contrib inbox is 0 bytes :) doesn't anyone use it anymore ?13:25
bd2CRUX is dead, don't you know?13:30
bd2just kidding, of course. But I noticed calm on most mailing lists.. probably most people still resting after Christmas/NY holidays. :-)13:34
prologicguess so13:35
treachno release in a long time, people retiring etc. No wonder if the preception is that it's dead.13:40
jjpkPR management ftw.13:42
bd2heh.. it's not PR, imo. I have my own opinion, and I've said it once on #crux-devel, on why there are less and less people involved in development. People always retiring, but it's not problem if community growing.13:46
treachwell. It is important, at least if you're a business. And not being a business doesn't make it less correct.13:46
treachbd2: that's right. but growth with the "wrong" people is just as bad as no growth at all.13:47
bd2treach, people are able to learn in time, don't you think?13:47
treachlearn, yes. fundamentally change, doubtful.13:47
treachunless they get struck real bad by some personal stuff or something like that.13:48
prologicbd2, what's your opinion ?13:48
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bd2prologic, 1. make contrib rules less strict, less bureaucracy. 2. really accept sane ideas/patches if they're written many-many times, i.e. people needs them.13:52
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bd2but that's not whole idea, of cource. there logs on #crux-devel.. I don't actually remeber which date it was13:52
treach"the road to hell is paved with good intentions."13:54
bd2hehe.. yup, that's also true :-)13:54
treachand both of those but especially #2 definietly puts down a whole boatload of cobblestones.13:55
bd2treach, you get me wrong. I didn't say "Put GUI installer in stock CRUX because people asking for it".13:57
treachI know that. But still, I fear it would be the death of thousand cuts.13:57
treachbesides, I wouldn't be against a gui installer as such. Just not the anaconda type.. FreeBSD or Slackware is more to my taste.14:01
treachHowever, and that's why I'm really against it, is that every single line of code specifically written for crux has to be *maintained* by someone.14:02
bd2me too, btw. :-) but.. I'd like CRUX-gui fork/derivative or something. not stock crux14:02
treachand if that someone leaves, someone else *has* to pick up the pieces.14:02
treachi.e more work, for no discernable gain.14:03
bd2you don't have to pick up, if was in "CRUX-gui"14:03
treachNo, I certainly won't have to pick it up.14:03
treachBut *someone* has to keep maintaining it.14:03
treachwhich will further bleed resources that isn't even really available in the first time.14:04
bd2but personally I think CRUX-gui is really good idea. because people can learn in time, they try CRUX-gui.. then cut "-gui" when they'll ready to do so14:04
bd2and in time, you'll get potential "developer" for the stock CRUX14:05
treachPerfect soulution, those interested in a gui makes it on their own, and create an alternative cd. They are then burdened with all related maintainence.14:06
treachand if they stop caring about it dies.14:06
bd2BUT. please list this "alternative" cd on your site, and give they some space to do their work for CRUX. name it "sub-project"14:07
bd2both CRUX and CRUX-gui will benefit14:07
treachheh, it's not in my hands. :)14:07
bd2I know. this is my ideas, which I've already told once.. :-)14:08
treachI'm just telling why I think it's a really, really bad idea.14:08
treach(if it would become part of the official project in some mysterious way)14:09
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treachbtw prologic seems like our patchwork works in real life as well. :)16:17
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_mavrick61tilman: I will do that asap...22:16
_mavrick61prologic: I'll make one for you. Same address just an other extension...22:27
_mavrick61Here is a JPG version of our system:
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prologicbd2, privmsg?22:53
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rxilol what a laptop .. just took a dive off the washing machine and dusted itself off and kept going like nothing happenhed23:14
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treachapparently it didn't.23:20
rxiwell it rebooted23:20
treachLucky you. I still wouldn't trust it from now on, if I were you. :)23:21
rxilol its an ibm23:21
rxionly got it just before xmas so i was a little freaked at first23:21
treachI thought ibm was out of laptops?23:22
rxisort of23:22
treachdidn't they sell the whole shebang to lenovo?23:22
rxiits a funny situation .. they still brand them ibm thinkpads23:22
rxithe lenovo ones are the cheaper alternatives23:23
treachstrange. :-/23:23
treachStill. I'm very happy with my R40, which incidentally is pre lenovo. :)23:23
rxihehe i wouldnt recommend anything else23:24
rximines an z61t23:24
rxiwidescreen goodness :)23:24
treachricer :P23:24
rxihey i didnt get the titanium lid model :P23:24
rxithe only crap bit is the speakers but your get that with most laptops23:25
prologictreach, what you say last night beofr eyou left ?23:26
treachwhat's on it? I hope you've put something better on it than windows by now. :)23:26
prologicI didn't quite undersatnd :)23:26
treachWHat a coincidence. :P23:26
rxitreach: lol no comment :P23:26
treachprologic: I changed the rc files accordingly, and this system still boots and shuts down appropriately. Amazing. :)23:27
treachrxi: I used to have crux on mine, but now it's running FreeBSD.23:27
rxitreach: ahh .. im waiting for 2.3 before i put a distro in this23:28
treachI can see why.23:29
prologictreach, yeah I know :)23:29
prologiccool huh :)23:29
treachrxi: bet you wouldn't be happy with anything less than xorg 7.2 :)23:29
prologicmine still is buggy :/23:30
prologicI can't use CTRL+ALT+PLUS/MINUS23:30
prologicto change res23:30
rxitreach: lol i havent used a linux on a desktop machine since xorg 6.923:30
prologicanyone used openmosix ?23:30
prologicwhat do you make of it ?23:31
treachrxi: Graphics chipset:Intel Graphics Media Accelerator 950 iirc there's no driver for that in xorg yet.23:31
treachsupposed to be in 7.2.23:31
rxigoing to give vista a whirl first anyway23:31
treachObviously I could be wrong, it's still just 6:30 here. But afaik that's the way it is.23:32
treachvista on a laptop.. :-/23:33
rxiit should be ok .. c2d 1.6, 1gb ram23:33
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treachfrom fully charged batteries to power off in 10 seconds. :p23:34
treachHonestly it's the first system from MS that I've ever seen that seems to have 0 things going for it, really.23:35
treachit's just bizarr all the way through.23:35
rxiive only played with it very briefly23:36
prologicI have to agree with you treach :)23:36
treachseriously. look at the specs. it's a gaming machine, and that's *without* running any applications.23:38
rxiyeah i know .. doesnt look half bad tho :P23:38
treachbasically people will buy a computer to run the os, not run their apps.23:39
treachrxi: I'll take my fvwm any day. :P23:39
rxitoo much arsing around23:42
treachOnly until you get it right, and when you get it right, it's prefect. :)23:42
treachAnd then you back up your config in 20.000 different places. :P23:43
rxilol .. that one of the reasons i used to use windowlab .. only could change like 5 colours and thats it23:43
treachActually I mainly use it because I've never been hit by a bug in it, so far at least.23:45
rxiyeah i hear its pretty solid23:45
treachheh, it's been around for a while. :)23:45
treachI guess they found the worst offenders a while back. :p23:45
rxihehe the users23:46
treachheh, right. scare away the dumbasses with some hideous defaults. :p23:47
rximaybe thats where crux is going wrong :P23:48
treachI don't think crux is going wrong. but it has a bit *too* low profile, honestly.23:49
rxitoo low? you think we need a bigger user base?23:50
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treachon the otherhand higher visibility == more BASICS whining, and I for one certainly can do without that..23:50
treachwell. A bit more manpower wouldn't hurt, exactly. And it's easier to find the rigth people in a bigger userbase.23:51
rxiyeah biggest problem is you get jsut as many bad apples as good23:51
prologicwmaker is nice too :)23:52
prologicI've used it for over 5years23:53
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treachI don't really like it, even though I've used it a lot. iIt feels a bit clumsy.23:53
prologicI've always loved it :)23:54
treachI didn't mean to imply that it's bad. But different tastes etc. :)23:55
rxiprologic: maybe your vision is a bit blurred on this matter :P no pun intended :P23:55
prologicdamn you :)23:56
rxihehe couldnt help myself23:57
* treach thinks of Igor in "young Frankenstien". :)23:57
treach"-Damn your eyes Igor!" "-Too late."23:59
Romsterwatch the movie brainstorm :P23:59
Romsterigor is in it too on a computer.23:59
treachok. :)23:59

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