IRC Logs for #crux Monday, 2007-01-29

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_mavrick61-04:34
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kuptry this ;)07:08
kuphttp://mail.vdst.rwth-aachen.de/kup/osdmixer.tar.gz07:08
kupscreenshot:07:08
kuphttp://mail.vdst.rwth-aachen.de/kup/osdmixer.png07:08
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schniggiekup: thx :)07:50
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kupschniggie: no problem, feedback would be nice ;)08:01
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kup /msg nickserv identify hobelchat08:09
kuphuch08:09
kupforget about that :D08:10
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Hanheh08:25
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pitilloHan, good afternoon. Have you removed e17 from contrib? (It means that you will not maintain it?)08:41
j^2hey all08:45
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pitillogood afternoon j^208:45
cyrus_hello :-)08:49
cyrus_I'm searching some information about Xgl instalation under Crux.08:51
teKthere was an article (by jaeger?) at crux.nu .. give it a try08:53
cyrus_So, i've been wondering, does someone install xgl on crux  jet?08:53
jaegerthere's an Xgl doc in the wiki but you'd be better off with beryl and either nvidia 9x drivers or aiglx08:53
cyrus_i have r9250 card08:53
cyrus_will it work with it?08:53
jaegerIn that case, I suggest modular X and AIGLX08:53
jaegerprobably08:54
cyrus_Does howto for Gentoo would be helpful?08:55
jaegersure08:58
jaegertheir installation commands won't apply to you but the info for configuring Xorg is useful08:58
pitillothere are some references at wiki and one of them seems to be the gentoo howto...08:59
jaegerhttp://gentoo-wiki.com/HOWTO_AIGLX08:59
jaegerhttp://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Beryl#Using_open_source_drivers_and_AIGLX08:59
cyrus_;) i checked wiki fisrt09:00
jaegerok09:00
cyrus_do I need to remove orginal xorg instalation09:01
cyrus_i'am using x11r6.909:01
jaegerif it's 6.9, yes09:01
cyrus_yes, it is 6.9 non-changed since crux 2.2 instalation, about one year ago09:05
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pitillowell, I can think they do not will be avaible at contrib again....09:08
cyrus_I found article on crux.nu too :-) It seems be still valid.09:09
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clarehello people,  just wondering if anyone has tried Xen; I am puzzled about keeping swap space separated (if not using file swap)10:00
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cyrus_thanks for help :-) I go play with xorg now ;-)10:52
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Hanpitillo, no it's in my own repo11:09
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pitilloHan, yes, I know, I mean in contrib. (next releases I hope I can work only with officials repos that is what I ask it) Thanks for your answer. :)11:21
HanI understand your grief. :-)11:22
pitilloxD11:25
pitillois there some reason to remove them from contrib?11:27
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HanYes, I was banned from contrib because my email did not conform to the standard.11:28
tilmanthat's a funny way to put it11:29
tilman<311:29
aonhaha :D11:29
tilmanpitillo: he didn't like the level of quality control that we want to see in contrib11:30
tilmanwhich resulted in11:30
tilman"<Han> fuck you and your rules!"11:30
aoni think it resulted in that line being emailed, though11:30
tilmanoh, yes11:31
aonwonder if viper still has that mail up11:31
tilmanbut the wording was close to that :D11:31
HanReally professional to post private mails in public.11:31
aonno :(11:31
tilmanwasn't "public"11:31
aonindeed11:32
tilmanjust made available to the people it concerns/ed11:32
Hanuhuh, like now11:32
tilmanwhat?11:32
aoni've no idea11:32
tilmanwhat do we care about "professional" anyway11:33
* tilman makes a professional dance11:33
aonheh11:36
pitillobrbrbr11:38
pitilloHan, is difficult to change your email address to conform the "rules"? Or is some kind of fight?11:39
HanIt's not hard at all. I just don't agree, it makes communication harder and it does not help against spammers.11:40
HanAnd since it's merely a comment I take the liberty to keep it like I want.11:40
guaquaerr, what are we really talking about?11:42
pitillowell, understanded the fact of that. But if all members (or majority) think that can be put in a general way to keep all Pkgfiles similar, why do not you change it? I think you have done a great job and I think it is a pity to keep your ports out.11:43
pitilloand may be I need to read all channel logs to understand what happen with you and tilman...11:43
tilmani think Han clearly stated that he doesn't like to conform with the (easy) rules11:44
tilmaninstead, he chose to ignore the bugs we filed, he ignore our emails asking him to fix his sutff11:44
tilmanand ultimately, he chose to tell Viper_ (contrib guru) to fuck himself11:44
tilmanway to go!11:44
rehabdoll:)11:45
aonbut it's good that he's since developed a real argument :)11:45
thrice`tilman: out of curiosity, do you get access to X11r7.2 ?11:45
pitilloseems a real argument, and can be talked with more people/devs/contrib members, but I really dont understand why can not be changed and throw lot of work to a second place11:46
tilmanthrice`: i'm waiting for the announcement11:47
tilmanthrice`: basically, it's all done and updated11:47
thrice`tilman: awesome.  I'm curious who they granted access to, since I was under the impression this is one of the bigger holdups for the 2.3 crux release11:48
tilmanumm, access isn't restricted!?11:48
tilmanit's all here:11:48
thrice`oh, I thought it was11:48
tilmanhttp://xorg.freedesktop.org/releases/individual11:48
thrice`I figure it was a release to packagers deal11:48
pitilloin a comunity, must/shoud (sorry my english) be majority any change. And if you must to follow some rules that you don not like, you are in a comunity and you should do it.11:48
tilmanthrice`: i don't know about any such deal, and it seems weird/unlikely there is ;)11:49
aonpitillo: get over it, use his httpup :)11:49
thrice`tilman: that's awesome, though :)  running pretty well ?11:49
tilmanyes11:50
tilmanit's a bit boring though11:50
pitilloaon, I think the good job must not be in second place... I know the solution here, only telling my opinion11:50
tilmanor, i didn't test the exciting changes. in the final anyway11:50
thrice`:)11:50
tilmanactually, you could ask in #xorg about the status of 7.211:51
tilmani don't dare to ask the release managers, he's lazy/busy/unresponsive ;)11:52
thrice`i'll be sure to mention that when I ask11:53
tilmanbetter don't11:53
tilman;)11:53
thrice`heh11:54
RedShiftwhy not?11:54
RedShiftwill you get kicked?11:54
tilmanno11:54
RedShiftthen go for it 8-)11:54
RedShift:-D11:55
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mike_kanyone with matrox millenium card?12:50
tilman;D12:54
tilmanhttp://gitweb.freedesktop.org/?p=xorg/driver/xf86-video-mga.git12:54
tilman;)12:54
tilmani got a few!12:54
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mike_ktilman: I am still on 6.9, what is missing in crux ports to get DRI enabled? (the only error in log is about not loading mga_hal which seems to be nonessential for G450)12:59
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mike_kand can you give a hint on what G450 Dual Head LE is?13:36
tilmanmike_k: yeah, hal has nothing to do w/ dri13:48
tilmanmike_k: don't think there's anything missing in crux 2.2 :)13:48
tilmanwhat does xorg.log say about DRI?13:56
mike_kjust: (WW) MGA(0): Direct rendering disabled14:08
tilmani find it hard to believe that's the only note14:08
mike_kand the only (EE) is about mga_hal14:08
tilmanoh well, 6.9 sucks anyway14:09
tilmanuse the xorg repo for eternal happiness14:09
tilmanand some mga goodness!14:09
mike_ktilman: cant allow myself to jump into modular xorg atm... http://openbunker.org/misc/Xorg.0.log14:10
mike_kehh, forget about it. All I wanted to know is that I do not have to deal with mga_hal to get dri enabled.14:13
tilmanok14:13
tilmanthe log is a bit weird14:13
mike_kbtw, what can mga_hal provide to G450?14:13
tilmanDVI and mergedfb support14:13
tilmanit's not critical, since matroxfb can set up DVI for you14:14
tilmani'm actually working on that14:14
mike_koh, nice14:15
tilmanoh, and mga_hal provides tv-out support for x14:15
mike_kthe weirdness is because using wrong modeline and semi-autogenerated config14:15
tilmanare you sure you load all the modules necessary for dri?14:16
tilmandri, glx14:16
mike_komfg, I think glx is commented out (that is a remote machine, but I'll try to check that now)14:18
mike_ktilman: thanks, that monitor fucked my brain up and glx left commented out. At least log says "Direct rendering enabled" and /dev/dri/card0 is created.14:21
tilmanok:)14:27
mike_ktilman: very stupid question, is it possible to get two keyboards/mices/monitors attached to one PC under x.org with ONE (dualhead) card?14:29
mike_kor is it mandatory to have two cards?14:29
tilmanx isn't _that_ retarded14:30
tilmantwo mice doesn't work yet14:30
tilmanbut of course you can use both heads of your cards14:30
tilmancard*14:30
mike_kboth at least with two keyboards/monitors?14:30
tilmanno idea about keywords14:32
tilmanboards14:32
tilmannot quite sober o_O14:32
mike_kjust saw that: http://blog.chris.tylers.info/index.php?/archives/14-Multiseat-X-Under-X11R6.97.0.html  not read yet, but looks it is possible14:33
mike_kthanks again14:33
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cyrus_?17:29
cyrus_hello !!17:29
cyrus_I recived some strange error when x11r7 was built17:30
* treach braces17:30
cyrus_error occurs in mesa3d package17:30
cyrus_gcc says something about modules used with i810 graphic chipset, but i don't use it ?!!17:31
ningohilarious !!?17:31
ningowithout the exact error message noone can help you.17:32
treachor something. And cptn never got around to return my crystal ball.. :(17:32
ningoyeah, it's a shame17:32
treachIndeed.17:33
treachcyrus_: got all deps? Remembered the installscripts? Funky CFLAGS?17:33
cyrus_yes ... i go step by step from installing x11r7 from crux site17:34
cyrus_it seems very strange because i update my libmesa 3 weeks ago and there wasn't errors17:35
treachrepos in the right order?17:36
cyrus_i suppose that, i typed 'prt-get depinst xorg' after /etc/ports.conf(?) adjustmenst17:37
treachhave a look in prt-get.conf17:37
cyrus_yes, i uncommented 'runscripts' and set it up to yes17:40
treachand the xorg repo is listed *above* the other prtdirs?17:41
cyrus_http://83.10.233.84/error.txt17:41
cyrus_this is what i got from make/gcc17:43
treachthat's a strange error..17:43
cyrus_firstly i tried to build only xorg-server17:43
treachstddef.h is part of gcc afaict..17:43
cyrus_then i saw that mesa3d failed17:44
cyrus_so this is effect of compilation only libmesa17:44
cyrus_maybe it is a way to turn of i810 module17:46
treachbetter to find a way to fix mesa if there is something wrong with it.17:46
bd2https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=881717:47
treachI'm currently trying to build it here. However, that will *ahem*, take a little while17:47
bd2probably pkg-config paths messed up17:47
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cyrus_bd2: it is very possible17:50
cyrus_because x11r7 is moved from /usr/X11RX to /usr17:50
treachwell. You're the first one to report this particular problem.17:51
cyrus_maybe PKG_CONFIG_PATH will help ?! but i thing /usr is in it ?17:51
cyrus_This is my 15th aproach to xgl/aiglx and xorg 7.1 :) first 10th was on slackware 10.1 :D17:52
treachwell, fwiw, it build fine here.17:53
bd2cyrus_, I'd suggest you to download crux-2.3-test1 iso and upgrade core&opt + install xorg from there. Don't bother with compiling :-)17:53
treachdon't..17:53
treachif he already have 2.2 installed, there's no point in playing around with the test iso.17:54
cyrus_I think about last resort ... xorg manual build ;-/ but it isn't pleasnt ...17:54
* bd2 tired of compiling, and really want binary repos for the CRUX ;-)17:54
treachno, that's why there is prt-get17:54
treachbd2: well, I guess you're going to arch then.17:55
bd2treach, arch suck. their pacman suck ;-)17:55
* treach won't touch a binary dist with a 10 foot pole17:55
cyrus_I'll try to fix up my pkg-config paths ... maybe it will fix that17:55
bd2cyrus_, just download http://crux.nu/~sip/test/crux-2.3-test1.iso , and follow upgrade instructions. you will got nice xorg in 5 minutes (not counting download/docs reading time)17:56
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* bd2 using it17:57
treachcyrus_: tilman is our local X-guru. You might consider poking him.17:58
treachGently. He might bite.17:58
treach:)17:58
bd2lol17:58
cyrus_;-)17:59
treach..he might also have gone to sleep.17:59
cyrus_I think it will be better, if i could tell him that used all possible methods to resolve it before i "poke" :p him18:00
treachright.18:01
cyrus_I mod my pkg-config paths .. about 20 min. we will see if it is worth something :)18:02
bd2heh.. it's wasting of time, actually. if treach had success with compiling mesa3d, then cyrus_'s build environment somehow messed up. Ultimately, of course, you'll find the cause of that messup, but why?..18:03
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cyrus_I've got results already. It's f***ed up on the whole line :/18:04
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cyrus_maybe this is connected with first error about depend18:08
treachyou *do* have xorg-makedepend installed?18:09
cyrus_yes18:11
cyrus_how i can extract building order from package in crux?18:12
bd2prt-get deptree package / prt-get depends package18:13
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treachhmm... I wonder if this migth be related to what's in the readme in xorg-server...18:15
cyrus_hmm strange , but what about other vpus ??18:16
treachno idea, just a thought18:18
cyrus_ok, i type this tip :)18:19
bd2heh.. can you pastebin contents of /usr/lib/pkgconfig/libdrm.pc somewhere?18:20
bd2and what "pkginfo -o /usr/include/xf86drm.h" tell?18:20
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cyrus_http://83.10.233.84/libdrm.pc18:22
bd2libdrm updated to 2.3.0 on Nov 1518:23
cyrus_same result after fix form README from xorg-server18:24
bd2did you "ports -u" & "prt-get sysup" before trying xorg?18:24
cyrus_yes18:24
cyrus_but maybe something goes wrong .. :/18:24
treachyes.18:25
treachyour system isn't up to date.18:25
bd2pkginfo -i | grep libdrm ? should be 2.3.018:25
cyrus_I'll try one more time from scratch .. but it is a way to unroll changes ?18:25
cyrus_if there was any :)18:26
treachcyrus_: make sure you've got the prtdirs listed in the right order!18:26
bd2there isn't any? :-)18:26
treachthing:~% grep Version /usr/lib/pkgconfig/libdrm.pc18:26
treachVersion: 2.3.018:26
cyrus_it shows 2.0.2 ;p lol18:27
bd2cyrus_, prt-get sysup --test  shows libdrm?18:27
bd2ouch18:27
bd2it was answer for the "grep"..18:27
bd2anyway, as I said, it's wasting of time. your setup is messed. if there is /usr/lib/pkgconfig/libdrm.pc but it's not listed in "pkginfo -i", then you're in mess18:28
bd2completely18:28
treachbah.18:29
bd2did you remove "x11" from the system before installing xorg?18:29
cyrus_http://83.10.233.84/prt_get_sysup_text18:29
cyrus_http://83.10.233.84/prt_get_sysup_test18:29
cyrus_do i look like an idiot ;-p (please don't anserw it.. i know it's true)18:30
bd2cyrus_, no, you don't. If you done something wrong on the long way, it's not means that you're an idiot.18:30
cyrus_that was only my ill sence of humor ;-)18:31
treach:o18:32
treachI'd suggest you bring your system up to date before trying anything further.18:32
bd2it's interesting why prt-get didn't install libdrm.18:33
bd2maybe it's just failed?18:33
treachquite likely.18:33
bd2cyrus_, do you have any *#* file inside /usr/ports/opt/libdrm ?18:33
cyrus_I'll brb , remove all downloaded packages, adjust my conf. again, update system, and try again18:33
cyrus_.... checking :D18:33
treachcyrus_: also, for your convinience, separate dirs for packages/source files are a blessing.. ;)18:34
cyrus_I have *#* file18:35
bd2which version it?18:35
bd22.3.0, right?18:35
cyrus_libdrm#-2.0.2-1.tar.gz or something very similar18:35
bd2:-(18:36
cyrus_but sysup didn't update anything18:36
cyrus_right ?18:36
bd2because you don't have it installed18:36
bd2cyrus_, cat /usr/ports/opt/libdrm/Pkgfile | grep version ?18:36
cyrus_afret slackware i used to no-deps at all18:36
cyrus_http://83.10.233.84/Pkgfile18:37
bd2hihi18:37
* treach shoots cyrus_ 18:37
bd2<treach> I'd suggest you bring your system up to date before trying anything further.18:37
bd2"ports -u" please ;-)18:38
cyrus_ok, it's running ....18:39
cyrus_I should write HOWTO, 'how to not install x11r7 on your crux-machine' :D18:40
bd2just out of curious.. what "pkginfo -o xf86drm.h" says?18:40
cyrus_libdrm /usr/include/xf86drm.h ??18:42
bd2and "pkginfo -i | grep libdrm" show nothing?18:42
cyrus_very installed is this uninstalled package :-D If i'm right :D18:43
cyrus_2.0.2-1 :018:43
cyrus_libdrm 2.0.2-118:44
cyrus_it is getting very strange ....18:44
treachpkgrm libdrm18:44
bd2<bd2> pkginfo -i | grep libdrm ? should be 2.3.018:44
bd2<cyrus_> if there was any :)18:44
bd2cyrus_, it's very bad to lie ;-) (or I didn't get you right ;-)18:45
cyrus_I didn't lie :-)18:45
cyrus_we had misunderstod18:45
treachcyrus_: please post the output of "prt-get info libdrm"18:46
cyrus_same as above 2.0.218:47
treachyour port apparently isn't up to date.18:47
cyrus_"if there is any ..." was about changes in system ;-) I've got terrible ping18:48
bd2cyrus_, I see. so, your "ports -u" still running?18:48
cyrus_... no, it is done,18:51
cyrus_now i'm trying to do prt-get sysup :)18:51
treachstop.18:51
bd2hehehe :-) what "crux" command shows?18:51
treachdoh....18:51
cyrus_crux version 2.218:52
bd2:-(18:52
treachcyrus_: before you begin your sysup, run prt-get diff18:52
thrice`sounds like rocket science to me ;)18:53
treachmake _sure_ stuff really about to get updated..18:53
cyrus_ok, but what with my own packages, like xfce-4.3.9. ...18:53
treachthey are going to die.18:53
thrice`prt-get lock <package>18:54
treachand they aren't needed anyway.18:54
treach(jue's got a separate repo for xfce4.4 iirc.)18:54
cyrus_http://83.10.233.84/prt_get_diff18:55
treachgood.18:56
thrice`heh18:56
treachcyrus_: it's a *REALLY* good idea to *always* check the diff before going on a sysup rampage..18:57
bd2... or use --test18:57
cyrus_ok ...18:57
cyrus_prt-get still wants to update my libalsa, but I don't .. ;)18:58
treachlock it then.18:58
treachalso, *after* the sysup is done, do *not* forget to run rejmerge.18:59
cyrus_I realy didn't think my system is so ... old ;-)19:01
cyrus_i should use cron to be up to date :D19:02
treachbad idea.19:02
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cyrus_Why?19:03
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treachif something unexpected happens you're toast.19:03
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cyrus_what do you mean saying "unexpected" ??19:04
cyrus_something like partial compiled package?19:04
cyrus_like binutils?19:05
treachno. but binary incompatible updates do happen.19:05
treachsemi-finished packages doesn't get installed.19:05
treachthat's one of the things footprints are for, I guess.19:06
cyrus_I need to start thinking like crux user, not slackware user (it was very out of date life) :)19:06
treachyes. And no ports. :)19:07
cyrus_no deps19:07
cyrus_1000 and 1 compiler errors19:08
treachwell, crux doesn't have deps either in the debian/red hat sense.19:08
cyrus_and magical hidden deps :)19:08
cyrus_yes but, it knows when i need some extra package...19:09
treachDebian/RedHat?19:09
cyrus_Crux19:09
treachah. No.. that's merely suggestions.19:09
treach*if* you're able to build a package without some of the listed deps, that's no problem.19:10
cyrus_Debian/Rh knows too much about deps... it is ill in that distros:)19:10
treachindeed.19:11
cyrus_But I found Crux 1 year ago19:11
cyrus_when LFS was too time-consuming and slackware was getting very old19:12
treachthey seem to take the approach that if a package could in *any*, no matter how remote the possibility, depend on something, then by god you shall have that package..19:12
treachrh/debian that is.19:12
* treach gave up slack at 8.0, never looked back.19:13
cyrus_yes, and that is the reason why i don't use RH form 6.1 rev. :)19:13
treachheh, 6.x sucked. :-/19:13
treach7.x was even worse.19:14
cyrus_7.x wasn't better19:14
thrice`I think I still have a slack box around19:14
cyrus_;-)19:14
cyrus_but then came out something even worse than RH :)19:14
cyrus_Mandrake :D19:15
treachnever had the misfortune to use that.19:15
treachterrible reputation though.19:15
cyrus_Firsts Mandrake was even worse than Win9x ;)19:15
treachyuck.19:16
cyrus_so i prefered slackware 8.1 :D19:16
treachmandrake is older than that..19:16
cyrus_It was first OS where i must use Power Btn because Ctrl-alt-del doesn't  work19:17
cyrus_maybe it was slack 7.1 :) I don't remember, because I have been using it since 199619:18
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cyrus_slack is installed on my second machine :)19:19
treachfirst mandrake appears to have been based on rh 5.1.19:19
cyrus_K6/2 500, because i forgot if it is i686 or still i586 :)19:20
treachit's i586.19:20
* treach still has a k6-2, 300 for particulary painfull experiments.19:21
cyrus_what do you mean saying "painfull" :)19:22
cyrus_??19:22
treachlike, "make buildworld". :)19:22
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DaViruzthe k6-2 is a very underapreciated processor :-(19:22
treachDaViruz: indeed, but it does have it's limits..19:22
cyrus_on this machine  :) it's enought to type 'make' when you compile gtk-2.6.x19:23
treachbut once built it runs freebsd quite nicely. rendering webpages takes a little while though.19:23
cyrus_but you can, press it litlle harder, and get something like k6/2 600MHz :D19:24
cyrus_it works very stable, under linux ;)19:24
thrice`and here I am thinking my 2100 is getting too slow :)19:24
cyrus_M$ OS'es won't event boot :) on this settings19:25
treachthrice`: I don't use it for regular work. It's just a test machine.19:25
cyrus_*even :)19:25
thrice`the macbook, on the other hand... ;)19:25
treachbut making latex create pdf-files on it is fun though.. :P19:25
cyrus_try to run Matlab on this machine under WinXP :D .... even with 128MB RAM :D19:26
cyrus_and 40GB hd :D19:26
cyrus_and resolve some differential(?) equations19:27
cyrus_or try to integrate some function with simpson algorithm :D19:28
treach\o/19:28
cyrus_it will be funny expirience :D19:29
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treachI guess it depends a bit on how the equations look.. but I can do that kind of stuff on my calculator. :/19:29
cyrus_you could watch tv, get shower, make a cup of tee ... :) go to beer with friends ... and then:) get wrong result ;p19:30
treachbetter do it with pen and paper then. :)19:30
cyrus_yes but let it be n=2e619:31
cyrus_and function will be e^-5(sin3x+3/4*cos3x)19:31
cyrus_uncool ... :)19:31
treachas I said above. I guess it depends.19:31
cyrus_but for 1/x is it as good as my calculator and pen :D19:32
cyrus_btw. do you tried what octave offers ?19:33
treachnope.19:33
treachI've looked at it, but I don't really have any use for it anymore.19:34
cyrus_:-)19:36
bd2cat /proc/cpuinfo  | grep "\(vendor\|MHz\)" | tr "\n" " " -> vendor_id : AuthenticAMD cpu MHz : 74.70519:37
bd2and it's running crux ;-)19:37
treachheh, geode, or some ancient k5?19:37
cyrus_48619:37
cyrus_:)19:37
bd2hehe.. it's 58619:37
cyrus_uuu ... my mistake ;D19:38
treach K5 then. I win. :)19:38
cyrus_very long time ago, I had 486 manufactured by AMD:)19:38
cyrus_but it was 100Mhz :)19:38
treachlol, DX4?19:38
bd224 Mb RAM19:38
cyrus_yeah .... :D19:38
treach^519:38
cyrus_16MB RAM ;) Win98 and OfficeXp ;D it worked perfectly slow :D19:39
treachI had one as well, originally with 8MB.19:39
cyrus_so i exchanged Win98 to SuSe 5.3(?)19:40
cyrus_and my linux adventure has began :D19:40
treachWin 3.11 kept crashing so I switched to OS/2..19:40
treachand then finally to linux. :)19:40
treachslack 3.2 iirc.19:40
bd2" 05:49:59 up 6 days,  3:45,  1 user,  load average: 0.09, 0.02, 0.01" -- and it's idling!! what a bastard. I should cut RAM to 8 Mb19:41
cyrus_i suppose it was on floppies :D19:41
treachcyrus_: don't talk about floppies..19:41
cyrus_:->19:41
cyrus_so you loved them ... ;-) like thousands other PC users :D19:42
treachOS/2 + win3.11 (for win32 stuff) + office 4.2 == 72 1.44MB floppys. :(19:42
cyrus_Corel 3.0 ;) only 12 :D but one was fu*** up :D19:42
cyrus_or duke nukem 3d from my friend, on 52 floppies :D19:43
cyrus_but it was worth :D19:44
treachno. nothing is worth shoveling tons of floppies. :-/19:45
cyrus_and computers was challenging :D19:45
treachhuzza for the days of editing autoexec.bat/config.sys. :)19:46
cyrus_I've got still one box ... :)19:46
treachthe last days of when people actually learned anything about computers..19:46
cyrus_to get 2KB free mem more :D19:46
bd2http://paste.lisp.org/display/36079 -- also I have this device on my table right now. talking to it through rs232 and uploading files to it through YMODEM %-)19:46
treach:)19:47
cyrus_:)19:47
cyrus_but Linus saves us :) he "invite" linux and made life better :D19:48
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cyrus_And God saw that was gooooood .... lol :D19:49
cyrus_James Hatfiled should say that :p but like metallica this wouldn't be OpenSource :/19:50
cyrus_btw. returning to topic, this xorg should include aiglx ?19:53
treachyes19:53
cyrus_:)19:55
cyrus_treach: you said about binary incompatibile files19:58
treachyes19:58
cyrus_does itr mean I should rebuild libraries19:58
cyrus_?19:58
cyrus_like gtk...19:59
cyrus_they depends on my X ex-installation19:59
treachwell, the only that springs to mind right now is that openssl had such an upgrade a while back, which broke openssh.19:59
treachit was easily fixed by recompiling openssh though.20:00
treachbut in general, yes, everything that depends on your current installation of x should probably be rebuilt.20:00
cyrus_or i can get some unexpected results running prog/lib from older X installation20:01
treachas I said. you should probably rebuild them.20:04
cyrus_;)20:05
treachjust run "prt-get update -fr $(prt-get dependent x11)" and go to bed. :p20:06
cyrus_good idea :)20:08
cyrus_what time do you have treach ... :) ??20:09
treach03:0920:09
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cyrus_so we live in same timezone :D20:10
cyrus_+/- 3 min. :D20:10
bd2dammit. 5:13 here. zZzz20:13
cyrus_:)20:14
cyrus_bd2 :) you hav moscow time ?20:14
cyrus_*have20:14
bd2yup, and live here20:14
cyrus_summer, we will have same time :D20:15
cyrus_now it's greenech20:15
cyrus_but not long :)20:15
bd2hehe.. probably not. because in summer, here will be time shift too20:16
cyrus_damm...:) uncool20:17
cyrus_so you will be starting day same time like in bejing ?20:18
cyrus_or i messed something up ?20:18
bd2hehe.. pardon for my ignorance, but I'm not sure where is bejing... :-(   ;-)20:19
cyrus_capital of china :D20:19
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bd2ugh.. I doubt it. China is approx -10 hours from here, I think.20:19
cyrus_I thought same :D but too late :D20:20
cyrus_I should more offen take a look on world map :)20:22
bd2heh.. here in Russia we call Bejing as Pekin. That's why I'm not understood Bejing :-)20:23
bd2will remember now.20:23
cyrus_but i think warsaw has the same time as in Moscow summer :)20:24
cyrus_we call this Pekin too :p but ... let's speak english :D20:24
bd2ok. then it's Beijing, not Bejing :-P20:26
cyrus_ my mistake:D20:26
cyrus_I call it Beijing not offen :D20:26
* bd2 heard first time ;-)20:27
cyrus_sometimes on discovery chanell they call it something else than Beijing too but i forget :)20:28
cyrus_btw. I alway wanted to speak 'pa rusku'(?) but i ddin't have time to lern it :/20:31
cyrus_*always :)20:31
bd2hehe.. :-) don't waste your time. too much languages came from Babylon as a cuss. personally I'd like one international language20:35
bd2and de facto it's English (how wish I knew it better ;-)20:36
cyrus_I have same fellings :) about english :D20:37
bd2in other words: --disable-nls :-)20:37
cyrus_:-)20:37
cyrus_usefull, especialy when you have a little hdd space :D20:38
bd2and also useful if you don't use NLS at all20:38
cyrus_citizens of two countries maybe 3 on earth could tell that :D20:39
cyrus_some time ago on discovery were adverbs, where have been shown some dying(?from die) cultures, and there was very goot epilog20:41
treachlol?20:42
cyrus_sounds somtheing like 'saving other cultures, bring diversity' ...20:42
treachadverbs? ;D20:42
cyrus_spots ... :)20:43
treachI guess you meant "adverts" :)20:43
cyrus_damm ... :p20:43
bd2adveb also exist ;-)20:43
treachI just love when people mix up the words..20:43
bd2adverb20:43
treachyes. something quite different.20:43
cyrus_dammm :p20:44
cyrus_what a mistake :D20:44
cyrus_what a shame .... :/20:44
treachwell, you didn't mix up "seam" and seem" or "moat" and "moot" at least.20:45
bd2cyrus_, haha. Give a time. + few hours and treach will speak even worse ;-)))20:45
cyrus_treach I have strong felling that you come from germany ... but I don't know why :D20:46
treachI'm not german.20:46
treachpeople usually belive it though, no idea why.20:46
cyrus_Does prt-get detect if it can install package ?20:48
treachno..20:49
cyrus_suppose that I haven't xorg (for now) and it try tu upgrade gtk ?20:49
cyrus_*tu = to20:49
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treachthen it won't build. simple20:49
cyrus_but if I make prt-get sysup, it will stop or go to the next package ?20:51
treachit'll skip to the next if a package fails.20:51
cyrus_:) thank you20:51
treachhowever.20:52
bd2gtk (actually pango) should be fixed in 2.3. In 2.3 prt-get will stop if something from xorg is missing20:52
treachif you have gtk installed, it's probably easier to just remove it.20:52
cyrus_I try to guess remeaining time of sysup :)20:52
bd2because in 2.3 branch "Depends on:" lists xorg-* stuff, not simple x1120:53
treach(since it's probably broken anyway, since you removed x11, I hope.)20:53
cyrus_yes :) in very early stage of today adventure :D20:53
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treachno sense updating these things. just throw them out for now.20:54
cyrus_i felt for a moment like someone who lost his right hand, both hands :) because i hadn't use console for a long time :D20:54
treachat least that's what I'd do.20:54
bd2cyrus_, you didn't used console in slack?! %-O20:55
treach.. for a moment I read that as "someone who's lost both his right hands"..20:55
cyrus_prt-get just skip them, so I remove them later20:55
treachI should probably go to sleap..20:55
treachsleep*20:55
cyrus_;-)20:55
bd2haha! sleap. cyrus_, just as I said20:56
treachbd2: ha to you.. "sleap" isn't a word actually.20:56
cyrus_I use console very offen, but for last year I use only very well customized xfce + xorg 6.920:56
bd2one more hour and we'll see something like "gh9835gg8gj4f" - it's treach sleeping on his keyboard -)20:56
bd2cyrus_, I see20:57
cyrus_hmm "gh9835... " it's a word, but md5 coded :p20:57
cyrus_:p Thats is yours theory bd2 ;)20:57
treachhow do you manage to use slack without using the console?20:57
treachseems like playing golf without clubs..20:58
cyrus_treach: I think you need sleep :) ... take a look few lines up :)20:58
cyrus_I use console very offen, but for last year I use only very well customized xfce + xorg 6.920:58
bd2cyrus_, and what you were doing in such environment? ;-)20:59
treachwell. there is no management tools in xfce..20:59
bd2it's just out of curious...20:59
treachxfce is bloated anyway. ;)20:59
cyrus_bd2: don't take it seriously :D that was joke :)20:59
* bd2 have to use console even to run irc client ;-)20:59
treach<-- proud fvwm user. :P21:00
bd2lol. treach, how much time you use fvwm already? ;-)21:00
treachhow much time?21:00
cyrus_how long :)21:00
bd2how long, pardon21:00
treachwell... I used it a lot in the past. This tour has been about 3 months or so I think.21:01
* bd2 proud old-own-patched-fluxbox user, btw.21:01
treachwhen I picked up linux there wasn't much else around, actually.21:01
bd2twm!21:01
treachand it sucks.21:01
treachit sucked even back 199621:02
cyrus_I was proud user of blackbox ... for a while :) but i bought some more RAM21:02
treachin fact I think it sucked for years even before that.21:02
bd2lol :-)21:02
cyrus_but I known persons who don't imagine world without KDE (blehhh, yuck....)21:03
treachfvwm, afterstep, windowmaker were the game back then. so and fvwm was usually the default.21:03
* bd2 tolerate kde because of konqueror.21:03
treachthere is nothing wrong with kde per se.21:04
cyrus_I loved Gnome for some time too, but it was very short romance ;) luckly for me :D21:04
treachit just feels a bit slow, and takes a bloody time to build. :/21:04
cyrus_I can't take kde, it's very unuseful :D21:05
cyrus_loads huge amount of resources21:05
treachgnome's got to be one of the more overestimated pieces of sw around.21:05
treachcyrus_: got any numbers for that?21:05
cyrus_use artsd ;)21:05
* treach is a tad tired of the "KDE is bloated meme"21:06
treachI did use kde for quite a long time. It never struck me as bloated, considering what it does.21:06
cyrus_imagine k6/2 with 32MB RAM, it's very fast when you use blackbox, windowmaker, afterstep21:06
cyrus_but kde its very bad idea21:06
treachon that system yes.21:06
treachbut then so is pretty much everything else.21:07
cyrus_now probably i would love kde21:07
bd2treach http://www.linux.org.ru/gallery/bigk8fetu.png -- at least TWM can look good ;-)21:07
treach32MB ram is about enough to start X and a windowmanager..21:07
cyrus_1,8Ghz Duron, 786MB RAM DDR2 :) it runs everything as a ligthning :D21:08
treachbd2: not bad.21:08
treach"768" :)21:09
cyrus_;)21:09
treachthis box is a bit faster than that, I still think gnome/kde feels slow on it.21:10
treachbut above all, I don't feel like spending an entire day compiling when there is a new version of kde out.21:10
bd2treach, *hint* binary repos for the crux *hint*  ;-))21:11
cyrus_very good reason to not install kde :D21:12
treachno, that would suck just as bad, just in another way.21:12
bd2treach, why?21:12
cyrus_binary incompatibile binaries ?? :D21:12
treachbinary repos == you get into dep. hell.21:12
cyrus_sounds sily but it's true21:12
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treachcyrus_: no, you're misunderstanding.21:13
bd2treach, heh. I disagree.21:13
cyrus_sometimes I had this problems on slackware21:13
cyrus_espacialy when I exchange glibc :D21:13
treachcyrus_: what I meant before, is when a minor upgrade isn't binary compatible with the previous version of itself.21:13
cyrus_but this was very painfull play21:13
treachbd2: I had a nightmare with this on freebsd a while ago.21:14
cyrus_treach: yes, I understood, but I think libs deps, and build envirnioment21:15
treachbd2: I use a small gtk filemanager, called pcmanfm. It's a small thingy, no big deps at all, necessarily.21:15
treachbut the brighthead who packaged it managed to make it depend on the entire gnome desktop.21:15
treachnow, that's a good reason to stay away from binary repos in my book.21:16
cyrus_just like 'anjuta' ide21:16
cyrus_very good program21:16
cyrus_when you want develop apps for gtk/gnome in C21:17
bd2yes. but it's not binary packages idea fault, but the packager. absolutely the same story I could tell you about: I just wanted to install kdebase with minimal deps. I used "prt-get depinst kdebase" and and.. and.. I got bloat (cups, cdparanoia, e.t.c.). just look at kde.git now :-))21:17
cyrus_but you need instal gnome canvas :D21:17
cyrus_or something similar21:17
treachbd2: but you're free to ignore things you don't want.21:17
cyrus_:) in the end you need all gnome to run it :D21:17
treachbd2: if you ignore things in a binary system the application might not run in the end, even if it works fine if it's left out at buildtime.21:18
treachcyrus_: yeah, lots of stuff like that.21:19
bd2treach, right. I have to modify Pkgfile and rebuild it myself. But, the most maintainers (I hope) putting really mandatory things in # Depends on:, not "just in case". you see?21:19
treachbd2: --ignore ?21:19
bd2treach, will it --ignore, or Pkgfile change. It does not matter. I *have* to do something against wrongly packaged kde21:20
cyrus_bd2 : but who guarantee this?21:20
bd2cyrus_, the policy of the repo, of course.21:20
cyrus_who says you should put only needed deps ?21:20
treachbd2: true, but it's a damned sight easier to just invoke the --ignore switch than to do something about a binary package..21:20
bd2cyrus_, KISS principle21:21
cyrus_in Crux yes :)21:21
cyrus_but in RH for example ?21:21
treachexactly, which is why I use crux, and not fedora/debian21:21
cyrus_sometimes you need use package outside crux21:21
cyrus_and what then ?21:22
treachyou make one.21:22
bd2treach, right. So, if you want to add/remove some feature -> fallback to sources. But in most cases binary packages works great.21:22
treachcyrus_: it's not hard.21:22
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treachbd2: binaries are great if you want a system up and working in a hurry.21:22
treachif you want something that suits *you* and *your* needs rather than the packagers, it sucks.21:23
bd2treach, I dream about utility which will check if I installed pkg from binary repo, then it will upgrade it from there everytime. And if I've compiled it from source, it will always compile it (i.e. not using binary version)21:23
cyrus_treach: I suppose that :), who would build ports :) if it would be hard.21:23
treachcyrus_: did you look at ebuilds? or FreeBSD ports?21:24
bd2treach, no. I need binary repos to not waste time if I have two/three/four crux machines. ;-)21:24
bd2I know, I know.. pkgsync, pkg-get..21:24
treachcyrus_: I imagine real people make them. But I'm not sure. ;)21:24
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bd2but it's not actually ideal tools. + I'd like official binary repos, to not compile anything ;-)21:25
cyrus_treach : ;) no I didn't see them :) but maybe one day ... when i will be bored of my life .. :D21:25
treachbd2: if they are reasonably homogenous, why not just compile to the lowest common denominator and share the package dir via nfs?21:25
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cyrus_treach: my girlfriend gone with another man and cat died from illnes :D21:26
cyrus_maybe then I try :D21:26
bd2treach, because I have to build packages anyway (once). I don't want. please do it for me ;-)21:27
treachI'm just telling you, crux ports are probably the smartest, simplest, and easiest solution to the problem of installing programs from source I've seen.21:27
cyrus_and we love Crux for that ^_^ :D21:28
bd2actually, I have slow machines (ARM) which is not suitable for the compiling. :-/ and something like apt-get would be just great.21:28
treachbd2: you can't make a "cluster" of them via distcc? :P21:29
treachand you're not running kde on them anyway, so what's the problem? ;)21:29
cyrus_bd2: then you need ARM-binaries... very incompatibile with x86 ones21:29
treachhmm.. iirc you don't need to have the same arch on all hosts when you use distcc..21:30
bd2treach, hehe. there where iPaqs cluster, made by handhelds.org folks. But it's dead now :-/21:30
bd2were21:30
treachbatteries died, and nobody could find the charger, I bet. :p21:30
bd2lol :-)21:31
cyrus_lol21:31
cyrus_rather rotfl :D21:31
bd2anyway. I feel, I want binary repos + great tool. I'll shoot two rabbits at once if'll find/made one ;-)21:31
treachok, "kill two birds with one stone".21:32
treachin russia you shot rabbits, apparently. :)21:32
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bd2haha. right ;-)21:32
treach(here we kill two flys with one swat.)21:33
cyrus_;-) in russia like in poland people alwawys hunt for bears and wolves :p rabbits were not interesting :)21:34
treachcyrus_: no, what was interesting was that expression was basically the same. just different animals.21:34
cyrus_bd2: true.. :)21:35
cyrus_but luckyly for all living things .. Id software created quake :D21:36
cyrus_expression is basically te same ... :) but much more safer :D21:36
treachOk, gamer version, "kill two bots with one grenade"?21:36
cyrus_i think it is only a matter of view21:38
cyrus_but rather no OS would have two package subsytems21:38
cyrus_it would be very error prone..21:39
cyrus_especialy if someone would compile part of binaries and just download a second part21:39
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cyrus_it is better to not allow this21:40
bd2with crux you doing just the same thing: you installing binaries from CD, and then adding what you want21:40
treachwell, as long as you have an extremely well defined base platform there is no problem with going binary with it.21:40
treachbut as soon as you go outside of that, it's the wild west, unless you go for the massive, bloated approach.21:41
cyrus_and if i good remember, you can always istall crux by compiling it from scratch21:42
cyrus_*install21:42
bd2treach, I just feel bad when I have to upgrade binutils/gcc/coreutils/wget/grep/groff/openssh/openssl/e.t.c. from sources. ;-)21:42
treachagreed, but I guess you could just as well wait for jaeger to update his iso then.21:43
treachjust get the packages there, unless he has a binary repo somewhere.21:43
bd2treach, yup. But isn't it better to "unpack" iso on site and write some tool which would manage binary repos?21:44
treachI don't see why you'd need more than wget..21:44
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treachObviously it's also a matter of cost.21:45
bd2because I hate typing when program could do it for me.  that's what computers for ;-)21:45
treachif there are to be binary repos, someone has to host it, and pay the bills.21:45
cyrus_bd2 ... but this is pointless ... then why you stick with Crux for yours ARM based machine ?21:45
cyrus_you can use slackware for example21:46
bd2cyrus_, because CRUX is most non-bloated distro even for the ARM/handhelds ;-)21:46
treachbd2: shellscripts? :)21:46
cyrus_idea is simple21:47
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cyrus_when you need good, well organized ..... extra superb system21:47
bd2treach, hehe. lets name it "shellscript" which have /etc/shellscript.conf and accepting "upgrade" argument ;-)21:47
cyrus_you build it up from sources21:47
cyrus_when you agree to some mistakes ... errors, strange structures you choose binary edition21:48
treachbd2: why create a specific tool for something that should be like < 10 lines in a shellscript?21:48
treachalso, it depends on the infrastructure being in place..21:48
treachi.e what I said above about someone paying the bils.21:48
treachbills*21:48
bd2treach, is crux.nu bills depends on upload/donwload traffic?21:49
treachwell, not sure how things are organised there, but the host bills are definitely based on traffic among other things.21:50
cyrus_maybe accessibility depends on trafic21:50
cyrus_they could have limits..21:50
treachyes.21:50
bd2we can ask ibiblio for the mirror ;-)21:51
cyrus_this is very popular solution in country ruled by two ducks looking like potatos ;-)21:51
treach?21:51
cyrus_transfer limits :)21:52
treachsome russian joke?21:52
cyrus_no, Polish reality :d21:52
treachah..21:52
bd2so.. if you'd get mirror.. no problems? ;-)21:52
treachyou're totally free to ruin your system anyway you like ;)21:53
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bd2lol :-)21:53
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treachlook, I'm not stopping anyone from creating such a solution, or setting up a mirror for it, or anything like it.21:55
bd2anyway.. why shouldn't CRUX listed here http://ibiblio.org/pub/linux/distributions ? ;-) this will solve my two rabbits^Wwhims: distfiles + binary repos ;-)21:55
treachI'm just saying that IMO binary packages suck, because invariably you get a lot of cruft along with the packages, *or* they might just be useful for a small subset of the potential users.21:56
treachalso, the needed amount of testing would go through the roof.21:57
bd2that's why God created users, no?21:58
treachnope. :-/21:58
bd2:-(21:58
treachthat's what Bill thinks.21:58
bd2no.. that's what Linus said once ;-))21:58
treachsource please.21:58
cyrus_users were created to enjoy using of good, stable and tested by small gropu of patient people software21:59
treachnot that either, but they weren't supposed to be guinea-pigs either.21:59
bd2treach, couldn't find :-/21:59
treachcyrus_: of course unless they paid for it.22:00
cyrus_treach: I always thought that when i paid for something it is the best quality for this money22:01
treachhehe, no it isn't.22:01
treachit's as poor quality they think they can get away with. :)22:02
cyrus_don't be angry for me but this is very american poit of view for quality22:03
cyrus_*point22:03
cyrus_implemented after WWII everywhere :/ on this planet22:03
treachI'm not angry, and I think my pow is quite a bit more cynical.22:03
treachit's all about maximizing profit, and not at all about making a good product.22:04
treachor even a reasonable one. Just "good enough".22:05
cyrus_sad but true.. :/22:05
treachAnd that's particulary depressing in this business, since people have no idea about computers and will accept practically *anything*.22:06
treachor at least rarely do anything more about it than give their computer a beating.22:07
cyrus_no, they are forced to do this22:07
cyrus_because avarage user don't see alternative22:07
cyrus_try to explain your grandparents how to use linux22:07
treachdoesn't matter. even if they saw the alternatives, they'd still prefer the old way (TM).22:07
treachcyrus_: simple, I don't. they are dead..22:08
cyrus_and try to explain why they shouldn't use this colorfull but shity products form M$22:08
treachbut if they were alive, I doubt they would find ubuntu any harder than ms latest offerings.22:08
treachremember? Once upon a time millions of people used DOS. Hardly the pinnacle of usability.22:09
treachand yet they made it.22:09
cyrus_besides sometimes you couldn't find alternative program that fits your needs22:10
cyrus_this field getting smaller22:10
cyrus_but still exist22:11
treachI'm interested in that. Usually when people talk about missing apps they mean photoshop, the latest and hottest games etc.22:11
treachlike A) they paid for those apps, and B) any ordinary user actually would need that..22:12
cyrus_no... I think about something like spice22:12
treachspice?22:12
* treach looks confused22:12
cyrus_program that simulate and analyze electrical ciruits..22:12
treachah. well, still.22:13
cyrus_pspice this is acronym or full name22:13
treachsounds like it falls in the same category anyway.22:13
treachor are you arguing your grandparents would need it? ;)22:13
cyrus_there are some GNU substitutes but they lack more than orginal app.22:13
bd2I found it. And yes, I lied22:14
cyrus_noo... my grandparents didn't get technical education22:14
* treach gives bd2 a spanking22:14
treach;)22:14
bd2"As usual, this being a 1.3.x release, I haven't even compiled this kernel yet.  So if it works, you should be doubly impressed. (Linus Torvalds, announcing kernel 1.3.3 on the linux-kernel mailing list.)" :-/22:15
cyrus_they were painters22:15
cyrus_or i again miss the word22:15
bd2but that was long ago (1.3.x!! :-))).. so yes, I forgot exact wording. ;-)22:16
treachbd2: well, that's a pretty long time ago, and refering to a development kernel. So I guess that's forgiveable.22:16
cyrus_treach: man who paint the paintings is called painter ?? artist ?? :D22:17
treachcyrus_: ok, it's not like I'm really disagreeing with you. It's just that the linux desktop is a great deal further along than most people would think.22:17
cyrus_damm... I need some good dictionary and grammar book :D22:17
treachpainters would be correct i think, anyway I get the idea.22:17
treachmine were farmers/factory workers, so it's not like they'd have known a great deal more..22:18
treachwhich is why I said that the ms offerings probably wouldn't have been any easier to *them*.22:19
cyrus_treach: this will take some time till linux will be interesting for avarage user22:19
bd2anyway. I'm sure that "release early, release often" will work for crux too. even if initial release where somewhat "buggy" ;-) so, make x.x.x versioning scheme for crux too. and everybody will know that e.g. 2.3.x is most probably buggy22:20
treachsee people who argue about how easy ms products are, usually all ahve forgotten how hard it was for them in the beginning.22:20
cyrus_treach: my mother's parents were farmers too22:20
treach*have*22:20
treachcyrus_: you *only* think windows is easy because you're familiar with it.22:20
bd2s/2.3.x/2.3.0/22:21
treachif you're a *total* n00b, it's really, really hard and confusing.22:21
treachcyrus_: belive me, I've trained people like that.22:21
cyrus_yes, I know that, especialy win3.1 :P22:21
cyrus_for 8 years old kid, who don't know english :D22:22
treachwin 3.x was hard for me as well. I had only used the c64 before that..22:22
treachand a little time with a totally whacked system called COMPIS, which used cp/m.22:23
cyrus_but windows is much simpler than unix like systems for Ms. Krysia form charted accoutent22:24
cyrus_She was lern windows on courses22:24
cyrus_She read about it in book , and magazines...22:24
treachYou are still confusing familiarity with "ease of use".22:25
bd2which tells nothing about easyness of windows ;-)22:25
treachexactly22:25
cyrus_now I thinking abou easy to lern :) not to use :D22:25
bd2unix is much easier to learn, imo22:26
cyrus_when you used to type mount everytime you insert CD/DVD22:26
treachbut if you are familiar with somthing already, it's much easier to learn.22:26
treachNot because it's easier, really, but because you already are familiar with the basic concepts.22:26
cyrus_you would fell wired when system would automount it22:26
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bd2cyrus_, better ask: why you don't have to mount CD in that stupid windows (if you were not familiar with it before ;-)22:26
treachok, /me enters noob mode. "What's a cd?"22:27
treachwhere do I put it?22:27
bd2and ask: what application will do if I'll eject it when some app using it (it will crash in Win9x, apparently ;-)22:27
treachDo I have to remove the previous cd before I can put a new one in?22:28
cyrus_this things didn't change across variety of machines/systems/architectures :D22:28
bd2treach, you have to remove previous cd22:29
treachcyrus_: also, a lot of this falls into the design of the system.22:29
bd2:-)))22:29
cyrus_true22:29
treachcyrus_: do you know that you had to mount a floppy on an old mac before you can use it?22:29
treachand that you have to unmount it before you can remove it?22:30
cyrus_no because i've used Mac maybe 10 times in my life22:30
cyrus_i felt very confiused with 1-button mouse22:30
bd2(I heard that in MacOS X to umount/eject CD you have to put CD icon into recycle bin ;-)22:30
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treachok, I had no idea, until someone told me. (I've never been a mac user)22:30
cyrus_I've tried lot times click right button :D22:30
treachbut the thing is that it's done automatically.22:31
treachand you are prevented from removing the floppy unless it's unmounted _because there are no eject button._22:31
treachyou *have* to use sw to eject the floppy, which unmounts it before it ejects it.22:32
cyrus_wow !! :) I didn't know that22:32
treachergo: having to mount/unmount disks to use them is *not* a problem.22:33
treachall you have to do is think a bit when you implement it.22:33
cyrus_but don't search so far ... :) avarage Amiga user would be confiused in Win9x/WinNT envirnioment :d22:33
treachI know, I was just making the point about mounting, and that's the best example I know of something people love to troll about.22:34
cyrus_;)22:34
treach(and I'm not calling you a troll.)22:35
bd2old Sun workstations also were without eject buttons on floppy drives22:35
cyrus_We went to the topic from wrong side22:35
treachbd2: I didn't know that. but it makes sense.22:35
cyrus_M$ success is built up around commericals...22:35
treach*familiarity*22:36
cyrus_"bribes" to hardware producers22:36
treachpeople are familiar with m$ products, and thus they insist on using them. whether they are suitable or not.22:36
treachwhen all you know of is a hammer, all problems look like nails, or something.22:37
cyrus_;)22:37
cyrus_I think linux should have some commericials campaign(?) in TV22:38
cyrus_on WWW/ radio22:38
bd2btw, http://www.iowaconsumercase.org/011607/9000/PX09280.pdf -- have you ever seen this site? there are lot such documents ;-)22:38
bd2http://www.iowaconsumercase.org/011607/3000/PX03020.pdf -- this one is just *perfect* :-)22:39
cyrus_be right back :)22:39
cyrus_now i'm forced to use redmond product22:39
treachwine can't handle it? ;)22:40
cyrus_because my printer manufacterer didn't think about linux support for his product22:40
treach... or..22:40
treachyou didn't think of using your printer in linux when you bought it.22:40
cyrus_i thought ... but sometimes not only you decides about what you are taking :/22:41
bd2cyrus_, what printer is it?22:41
cyrus_I'm ashamed .. it's Lexmark P625022:41
treachugh, lexmark. :(22:42
cyrus_very good printer, full of usefull facelities22:42
cyrus_but very M$22:42
treachalmost any printer except cheap-ass epsons and lexmarks will work in linux. :/22:42
bd232,800 results in google "Lexmark P6250 linux". I bet you can run it22:42
cyrus_;)22:43
cyrus_I've tried, belive me ....22:43
bd2ugh.. sorry then ;-)22:43
* bd2 have cheap-ass epson stylus color II, still running out of the box using cups ;-)22:43
cyrus_I realy want this dream comes true ... but I shuold kick this printer out of my "window" :p22:44
treachhttp://openprinting.org/show_printer.cgi?recnum=Lexmark-P6250 :/22:44
treach"Paperweight"22:44
cyrus_i saw that yesterday too22:44
cyrus_ok, so I brb :)22:45
cyrus_give me 3 min :p I need download some IRC client on windows :d22:45
cyrus_quit(brb)22:45
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cyrus_wow !!!22:52
cyrus_:)22:52
cyrus_I forgot how mIRC looks like :D22:52
henado you feel happy now that you could enter the world of deprivationsoftware again?22:53
treachyou should have gotten a proper printer instead. It would have spared you the pain.22:53
henahmm, ircing with a teletype22:53
henaed the irc client22:54
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treachwell. If he'd had a ps printer, he would have been in the clear. :)22:55
cyrus_treach : But like we say 'jest promyk nadziei' :D22:55
treachOch som vi säger; Du paratar dynga.22:56
cyrus_treach: "there is ray of hope"22:57
treachah, much better.22:57
cyrus_or something like that :D22:57
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henaand some of us say, you say something...22:57
treachlight, probably.22:57
cyrus_they had driver kit for linux22:57
cyrus_just bare procedures22:57
henahow nice, my swedish is not entirely forgotten :o22:58
treachheh.22:58
henanow i can go the next 15 years without :)22:58
cyrus_lol:D22:58
cyrus_maybe i do some magic and write something useful from this driverKit22:59
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cyrus_lol23:05
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cyrus_second very useful device is my tablet23:06
cyrus_made by Pentagram23:06
* bd2 tomorrow could give lesson of most russian bad words ;-) for now: zZzzz23:06
bd2russian most bad23:06
treachheh, no need for such lessons.23:07
cyrus_but lucky it is supported by aiptek driver23:07
cyrus_:D23:07
bd2treach, you already knew them? ;-)23:07
treachbd2: well, let's just say I know enough.23:07
bd2you kidding me. say something23:07
cyrus_bd2: Is they similar to polsih bad words?23:07
henahah, i know some russia bad words!23:08
hena:)23:08
hena(n)23:08
treachbd2: I can't spell them eany way.23:08
bd2cyrus_, I don't know really ;-)23:08
treach;)23:08
bd2treach ;-))23:08
bd2ok.. I could give lessons of spelling russians most bad words ;-)23:08
henaand i know some finnish bad words also!23:08
cyrus_:p23:09
treachperkele, I'm outta booze! Worst curse in finnish. =)23:09
cyrus_bd2 :) sweet dreams btw. :)23:10
cyrus_I even couldn't imagine worst Polish curse23:11
cyrus_language is so flexy in this matter :D23:11
hena"vittu. silmat liikkuu, lisaa viinaa"23:13
cyrus_??? but maybe I don't want know what does it mean :D23:15
cyrus_I even don't know how to spoke it correctly23:16
cyrus_too many ii uu , :D23:16
cyrus_vowels(?)23:17
treachbanned in finland, i heard.23:17
treachthat's why they use a whole bunch of them at the same time somtimes.23:18
treachsometimes*23:18
treachjust to spite. :)23:18
henathat's practical23:18
henayou can spit and talk at the same time23:18
henadon't have to take any breaks23:18
cyrus_my god, how do you say that withou breaks?23:20
cyrus_I would break my tongue on this :D23:20
cyrus_and where is place to breathe23:21
cyrus_:D you need it sometimes undoubtly ... where ever you come form23:21
hena:D23:22
treachheh, I went to my physician last week. She tried to guess where I'm from from my dialect, so I asked her to say "rullebör" :)23:22
treachshe almost swallowed her tounge. (or at least was how it sounded. :) )23:22
cyrus_very "fatal" phrase :D23:23
treachyeah. (it's not a phrase, it means "wheelbarrow".)23:23
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cyrus_luckyly i have been lerning german for 7 years :) so I could try to read it :D23:24
cyrus_or it seems me that I can ;)23:26
cyrus_brb ... :) I must jump again into linux :D to finish xorg slaughter23:26
treachwell. being able to read german doesn't make me able to speak like someone from lower saxony..23:26
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cyrus_I wouldn't bother, my uncle from Silesia use their local language :)23:29
cyrus_I was there for some time, but I coudn't talk like them23:30
thrice`anywhere I can view crux's udev init script online ?23:30
treachisn't there a gitweb or something?23:31
cyrus_or Webmin ...23:31
cyrus_or oldfashion ssh shell23:31
thrice`I accidently turned ssh off this morning ;\23:32
treach...accidentaly?23:32
treachhow do you type "/etc/rc.d/sshd stop" by accident? :)23:33
thrice`i was tired!  who knows ;)23:33
cyrus_... It seems you were very tired ...23:35
cyrus_but seriously, try tu find some admin modules via WWW23:36
cyrus_but be prepared to instal php + apache23:36
cyrus_at least :/23:37
treachhe doesn't have access..?23:37
cyrus_apache, php ,WWW modules?23:37
cyrus_you can configure php as a separate interpreter23:38
cyrus_like perl or python23:38
cyrus_so then php will have needed permissions23:39
cyrus_if he give them to it23:39
treachdude, how do you install stuff to a system where you don't have access?23:39
cyrus_aaa ... :)23:39
cyrus_ohhh ... :D23:40
cyrus_so how he lost his root priviliges or he never have them ?23:41
treachmaybe no local access.23:41
treachyou know, all systems aren't on your desk..23:41
cyrus_I know, I know :D23:41
cyrus_linux is mainly server system :D23:42
cyrus_but in this case you can't get access, maybe som hackers tricks23:42
treachthere's nothing quite like locking yourself out of your system with iptable tricks. :/23:42
treachBut I'm sure thrice` will get a handle on things eventually. He's an engineer after all. :-)23:43
cyrus_:-) yes but engineer don't mean God :D23:44
cyrus_I will be engineer too ;p23:44
treachno, but hopefully it means "intelligent".23:44
thrice`hehe, found it indeed :)23:44
thrice`intelligent, yet slow23:44
treachbetter that than quick and dumb.23:45
thrice`aye23:45
treachthrice`: when I was doing military service we used to say "quick, but wrong" about our recon guys. :)23:46
cyrus_.... yes ... :p but how would know that mc depends on glib......23:47
treachanyone who can use a browser or asks prt-get?23:48
cyrus_and accidentaly i removed it few minutes ago ... :)23:48
cyrus_too update with xorg :D23:48
cyrus_damm, i'm so inteligent and bright :D23:48
treachjust take a break, and read the prt-get manpage.23:48
treachfrom cover to cover.23:49
treachit'll make things a great deal easier.23:49
cyrus_i'm swift like water in WC23:50
treach...23:50
cyrus_;)23:52
cyrus_but I remember that mc depends only on ncurses23:52
cyrus_not glib ?23:52
cyrus_what was changed since y2k ?23:53
treachyou remembered wrong.23:53
cyrus_*what has been23:53
treachI bet there's a changelog someplace.23:53
treachalternatively you could try to rebuild mc without glib and see what happens. :)23:54
cyrus_I think only one ... mad deps are cancer of linux23:54
treachdoesn't matter.23:54
treachlots of stuff depends on glib.23:55
cyrus_even pkg-config23:55
cyrus_and glib depends on it :D23:55
treachactully, by removing glib, you've probably disabled a lot of things in your installation in one swift move.23:56
treachGood job :)23:56
cyrus_I know it :D23:56
treachpkg-config is another package that you're wise to leave alone..23:56
cyrus_but luckyly i remove glib 2.xxx23:57
cyrus_and pkg-config depends on glib 1.2.8 shipped with it :D23:57
treachyeah? it still doesn't help the other poor apps you know..23:58
cyrus_but saves my skin :D23:58
treachtrue.23:58
cyrus_I can build new glib 2.0.0.0 :D23:58
cyrus_using prt-get :p if it not depend on glib > 1.223:59
treachworst case: get the file from the cd. *shrugs*23:59
cyrus_:D lol23:59
cyrus_so You see that mad deps are cancer of linux :D23:59

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