IRC Logs for #crux Monday, 2007-02-12

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treachgood morning.01:39
stjepanI'm going to try crux01:39
stjepancurrently I'm a slackware fan01:39
stjepanis it easy to install xorg7 and xgl on crux?01:39
treachxorg isn't any problem.01:40
treach*if* you follow the docs..01:40
stjepanalso, the server here is down:
treachcan't tell about xgl, never used it.01:40
stjepanhave you tried xorg7?01:40
treachNo, I'm *using* it. :)01:40
treachAnd have done so for quite a long time.01:41
stjepanis crux fast?01:41
treachfastest distro I've used since it has very little overhead.01:41
stjepantreach, and have you tried slackware?01:42
treach3.2 - 8.0, does that qualify? :D01:42
stjepanyes :)01:42
stjepancan I make a package without Pkgfile?01:44
treachno. but why would you want to avoid that?01:44
treachit's not exactly hard.01:44
stjepanwell, it's simpler without Pkgfile if you want to quickly install something01:45
namenlosyou could install a compiled package using pkgadd01:45
treachwell, you could use the "configure && make && make install procedure..01:45
treachbut not creating a Pkgfile would be a mistake imo.01:46
vertahlose all the features of ports01:46
stjepanmake install is not good01:46
treachit doesn't take that long, and it makes maintainece so much easier01:46
treachprecisely my point.01:46
pitillotreach, and tracking...01:46
stjepanwhere's Xorg7 installed? /usr or /usr/X11R7?01:46
treach /usr01:47
stjepanis crux as simple as slackware?01:47
guaquaif(num <= max && num > min) { printf("%i \n", num ); }01:47
guaquacan someone give me a reason this one doesn't evaluate the minimum value?01:47
guaquaall integers /01:47
stjepanguaqua, what exactly do you want to do?01:48
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stjepanis it possible to completely upgrade crux?01:48
guaquamake sure the value in the num is printed out if it's between or the same as max or min01:48
treachstjepan: it's a matter of taste. It's even more less cluttered than slack.01:48
stjepanguaqua, and if it's not between those value then what? not print anything?01:49
treachstjepan: also, upgrading is recommended to be done from the cd, but if you have the "knowhow" you can do it via the ports.01:49
guaquastjepan: yes, do nothing01:49
stjepantreach, less cluttered? isn't it's package management more complicated?01:50
treachno, it's not complicated.01:50
stjepanguaqua, if (num <= max && num > min) printf("%i\n", num);01:50
treachand I was mostly refering to things like initscripts etc.01:50
stjepanguaqua, post your all code in
stjepantreach, and what about ports? aren't makepkg, installpkg, removepkg, upgradepkg simpler?01:51
treachwhat's so hard about that?01:51
stjepanit's not hard...01:52
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vertahtime spent conversing could of had it done :P01:52
guaquastjepan: the code is very simple and this is the one line giving me the trouble.. if(num <= max && num > min) { printf("%i \n", num ); }'01:52
stjepantreach, is crux very stable?01:52
guaquamodified now01:52
stjepanhow up-to-date is it?01:53
treachstjepan: it's as stable as you allow it to be.01:53
stjepanguaqua, what are the values of max and min?01:53
stjepantreach, well, slack is well-known as stable...01:53
guaquathey are given while the program is executed01:53
stjepantreach, how up-to-date is crux?01:53
guaquaintegers all01:53
treachstjepan: let me just tell you this. Crux has never failed me, unless I screwed it up myself.01:54
stjepanguaqua, post your entire code at I'm quite sure the error is somewhere else01:54
treachand it's fairly up todate, if you keep it in sync with the ports.01:54
stjepantreach, and have you ever screwed slack?01:54
treachno, but I never did the same wild things with it.01:55
stjepanwild things? for example...?01:55
treachlike switching to unstable versions of glibc, new versions of gcc etc. :)01:55
stjepanwho was the maintainer of xgl packages?01:55
stjepantreach, with crux I compile everything from scatch, like with gentoo?01:56
treachbasically, yes.01:56
treachbut otoh, you do that with slack as well.01:56
treachor you're either pretty far behind, or you might not even find a package at all. :)01:57
stjepantreach, is it easier to maintain the system with crux?01:57
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treachyes, imo.01:57
stjepando I have to configure kernel by hand?01:58
treachany distro where you don't?01:59
stjepanslackware, debian, ubuntu01:59
stjepanI don't like configuring from scratch because I will always miss something01:59
stjepanthere's a lot of stuff to set up01:59
treachthat's why you save the configfile once you've got it right. :)02:00
treachand until you do that, you can probably use the kernel on the cd.02:00
stjepanwhy bash#2.05-1.pkg.tar.gz and not bash-2.05-1.pkg.tar.gz?02:01
treachI'm not the right guy to ask that question, but does it matter?02:02
pitillothat is the way to talk about packages.... the last seems sources too.02:02
stjepanI don't understand... the common naming scheme is to use "-", not "#"02:02
pitilloI think the # makes the difference to make easy to see and work with....02:02
treachI don't know why pli chose to use #, but it works pretty well and that's what matters to me.02:03
stjepanwhere are XGL ports?02:03
treachIMO it's not a critical matter what character is used to part the packagename from the version..02:04
stjepanwhat's in /etc/rc.conf?02:05
stjepantreach, that's nothing02:05
stjepan"NOTE: This HowTo is no longer maintained. The instructions may still be valid but I no longer use Xgl or compiz. Feel free to use them but you're on your own. The subversion repository has been removed, I suggest you look into Beryl/AIGLX instead."02:05
stjepanthis is totally wrong02:05
stjepanberyl and aiglx suck :(02:05
treachwhat? It's entirely correct.02:05
stjepanI prefer xgl and compiz02:05
treachit's out of date02:05
stjepantreach, what?02:05
stjepanwhat's out of date?02:05
treachthe doc. :)02:06
treachwhich is what it says.02:06
pitilloit is not the same... something sucks and your preferences...02:06
stjepanactually it's quite up-to-date as there's the note02:06
stjepanpitillo, yes, but there are no XGL and Compiz packs because of beryl02:06
treachstjepan: besides if you want to argue about x stuff, I'm not your man.02:06
stjepanarrgh those beryl-devs made people think compiz is dead ... I knew it :(02:06
stjepanwho was the author of those xgl packages?02:07
treach(as noted from the link before, you could draw the conclusion that I don)02:07
pitillotake a look to Packager and some Pkgfiles02:07
treach't really care about 3d stuff. *Argh*02:07
stjepanI do... it's very useful02:08
* treach tracks down the imbecille who put ' right next to enter and shots him02:08
stjepanI'm using xgl for almost a year and I can't live without it02:08
stjepantreach, can I see your screenshot?02:08
stjepanuhh I wouldn be able to live with this :)02:10
stjepangnome, xgl and compiz all the way here :)02:10
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treachwimp :)02:10
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stjepantreach, how time consuming is installing stuff?02:12
stjepanare there gentooish /etc/make.conf optimizations?02:12
stjepanthere is /etc/make.conf?02:13
treachhow long time things take is obviously related to what hardware you've got and what you're trying to install.02:13
treachfvwm is a fair bit faster to install than kde, for instance..02:13
stjepanhow are dependencies resolved?02:14
treachyou can set your own compiler flags in /etc/pkgmk.conf if you want to, but there is no USEflag madness.02:14
treachwith prt-get02:14
treachbut they are not mandantory.02:14
stjepanuh yeah USE flags are crap02:14
Romsterstjepan, you ask more questions than i did.... how about reading some man pages of prt-get02:15
stjepanso how to install xorg without deps?02:15
treachbad idea.02:15
Romsteryou don't02:15
treachreally, really a bad idea..02:15
Romsteryou install the base xorg system02:15
stjepanand what then?02:15
Romsterthen add extra mudoles/ports if you want them02:15
treachor need them.02:15
Romsteror need.02:16
Romsterstjepan, then you install a desktop manager or window manager02:16
Romsterreally silly question...02:16
treachso, building xorg, and then gnome is going to take a while. ;)02:16
stjepanwhat's this: ?02:16
stjepana metapackage?02:16
stjepanwhat's it's use?02:17
treach"meta port" would probably be a better name02:17
treachit's use?02:17
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Romsterstjepan, would you liek to hand compile and install xorg!!!02:17
treachyou use it instead of installing every single package listed there..02:17
Romsteri don't think so...02:17
stjepanso that xorg package is used fro dependencies?02:18
Romsterthere is a # Depends On:02:18
treachnot really.02:18
Romstermetadata at the top of the Pkgfile02:18
stjepanRomster, that's just a comment02:18
treachstjepan: it's just a more handy way to package a sane installation of xorg.02:18
Romsterthats what prt-get uses to know what dependencys it needs02:19
stjepantreach, can I see your /etc/pkgmk.conf?02:19
treachone minute.02:20
stjepando all packages have "# Depends on:" ?02:20
treachbut it might be empty.02:20
stjepanbut that line isn't necessary, is it ?02:20
treachit's a mandantory field.02:20
Romsterall the metadata lines are mandatory02:20
stjepan - no "# Depends on:"02:21
treachthe handbook is pretty old, like the orignal iso.02:22
stjepantreach, why -Os?02:22
treachwhy not.02:22
stjepanwhy not -O2?02:22
Romsterread the port guide lines.. among xorg howto and whatever else you got questions on b4 asking silly questions that are already covered...02:22
Romsterstjepan, i use -O202:23
stjepantreach, how long did it take to configure kernel for you?02:23
Romster-Os is jsut smaller binary size with optomised02:23
treachI don't remember, 45 min or so.02:23
treachRomster: not quite.02:23
Romstertreach, how i read man gcc02:24
Romsterall optomisations for -O2 but not ones that increase code size02:24
Romsterhence -Os02:24
treachthat's more like it.02:24
Romsteri've been reading about gcc alot.02:25
stjepando you use -pipe too?02:25
Romstersome of the -f flags i'm not so sure on messing with though02:25
treachRomster: The example the other day wasn't my standardflags you know. :P02:25
Romsterstjepan, export CFLAGS="-O2 -march=$(uname -p) -pipe"02:25
Romsteris what i use same for CXXFLAGS02:26
Romsteryou can use -mtune= if you don't want to export packages for other pc's that maybe diferent core.02:26
stjepananyone has those XGL Pkgfiles?02:27
Romsterstjepan, if you looked -pipe is default in the /etc/pkgmk.conf file02:27
Romsterlook on the ports search engine02:27
treachlooks like it migth be your first contribution. :>02:28
stjepanRomster, nothing there :(02:28
Romsteryeah i don't see it either02:28
stjepantreach, certainly, if I install and like crux02:28
Romsterthen make a Pkgfile of it.02:28
stjepancrux is an interesting distro02:28
Romsterlike the rest of us do that want a program thats not already been packaged02:28
treachjust go ahead, and give it some time to get adjusted to it.02:28
stjepanfirst I learn about it before I install a distro02:29
treachI used slack for a long time, and I can't say I ever regretted "the switch". :)02:29
stjepanI'm currently on archlinux... it got slower and it's not as lightweight as crux..02:29
Romstercrux is the kiss principal.02:30
stjepanyes, kiss rocks :)02:30
stjepananybody here uses gnome on crux?02:31
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treachNot sure anyone of them are present yet02:31
Romsterhehe litearly02:32
Romsterkde here.02:32
Romstergnome should be working fine theres been a rebuild of a new version not long ago02:32
Romsterlol netsplit and only pro was on that ircd02:32
Romsterlast time i tryed gnome it never worked for me but the packages have been edited since then 1-2 weeks now i think02:32
Romsterso i'm assuming it all works now.02:32
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Romsterbut since i've setteld into a half KDE and half gtk and other GUI apps i hadn't had a urge to try gnome.02:33
Romsterwb prologic02:33
stjepanhow different are various releases of crux? do many things change? or packages are only updated?02:33
treachmainly updates02:33
Romsterpackages get updated02:33
Romsterports -u; prt-get cache; prt-get sysup, is all you do to update the system. once its setup.02:33
stjepanwhat should I get crux-2.2 or latest?02:34
treachget jaegers updated iso02:34
stjepantreach, updated?02:34
treachotherwise you'll be in a world of updates..02:34
stjepan - is this jaegers updated iso?02:35
stjepanahh it's just a symlink to 2.202:35
stjepan ?02:35
Romstertreach, i don't find the world of updates to be a problem on a high speed net connection02:35
stjepanomg xgl packs there!02:36
treachit's a lot more compiling than needed.02:36
stjepanbtw, why do you use MMDDYYYY instead of DDMMYYYY?02:36
Romstertreach, heh not when i got them already compiled :P02:36
Romsterbecause its american and not brithish/australian format02:37
Romsteri much prefer DDMMYYYY or the sql way YYYYMMDD02:37
treachbrittish/australian? How about looking outside your belly button?02:38
stjepanhuh... archlinux is american too and it uses DDMMYYYY :)02:38
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Romstertreach, *shrugs* usa uses MMDDYYYY to me its illogical02:38
Romsterday month year who uses month day year its not really sequentual is it.02:39
Romsterbut thats another can of worms :)02:39
treachRomster: what I'm getting at is that pretty much everyone afaik, uses yyyymmdd, except the americans who always insist on beeing assbackwards about things.02:39
treachIOW, there is nothing "brittish/australian" about it.02:40
stjepantreach, ?02:40
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treachafaik it's an iso-standard..02:40
treachstjepan: yes.02:40
stjepantreach, what's iso standard? ddmmyyyy?02:41
guaquabeing and iso-standard and being sensible don't necessarily mean the same thing02:41
treachDid I say that?02:41
Romsterwell yyyymmdd or ddmmyyyy is fine to me jsut the americans are jumbled up, along with there old imperial measurments.02:41
Romsterhrmm my bit of new bash code isn't working right...02:42
stjepanI must go now... thanks for all the info...02:42
stjepanI'll definitely give crux a try, downloading now :)02:43
treachguaqua: ISO-standards might not always make sense, however, using your own system "just because" is even more questionable IMO.02:43
stjepandoes crux follow LSB standards?02:43
treachnot really.02:44
treachbut lsb is overrated anyway.02:44
stjepanwhy it doesn't?02:44
treachbecause it doesn't make sense all the time?02:44
treachfor instance isn't RPM part of the LSB standard?02:44
treachand gtk, and qt too iirc.02:45
guaquatreach: i'd rather use my own system just because if it's easier to use and saves me from more trouble than using iso standard02:46
treachwell, that's fine as long as you only have to deal with yourself.02:46
treachbut as soon as anyone else gets involved your in a mess.02:46
stjepanis crux more lightweight than slack?02:47
treachcrux is a light or heavy as you make it.02:47
stjepanI've tried gentoo many times and I always broke it02:48
treachgentoo is hopeless.02:48
guaquatreach: not if the rules are known and still save time and effort02:48
treachguaqua: I don't get your point.02:49
Romstermaybe i'm having a mental block but this bit of code isn't working trying a better/newer way to remove conflicting files from my compiler ports.02:49
stjepandoes prt-get compile stuff?02:50
guaquatreach: if not using a standard always saves time, don't use the standard02:50
guaquathere's no reason to use a bad standard02:50
treachno, not always. but in general standards are a good thing.02:51
stjepanhow are some services made to be run at boot?02:51
Romsterstjepan, prt-get is a frount end to pkgmk, pkgadd, pkgrm02:51
treachlsb is corrupted standard02:51
stjepanthey're added in rc.conf or chmod+x in /etc/rc.d ?02:51
treachthey are added in rc.conf02:51
stjepanwhat else is in rc.conf?02:51
guaquastandards are for getting things done easier and the same way everywhere, but if the standard is bad 95% for the time it shouldn't be used since for that 95% of the time it makes things harder02:52
Romsterlook and you'd find out...02:52
Romster/etc/rc.d/ is for the inti scripts that are listed in /etc/rc.conf in the SERVICES=()02:53
treachguaqua: As you can read above I'm not disagreeing with you. Some standards which get too heavily infested with partisan interests are *really* bad. Others, like the format of presenting time and dates are *good*.02:53
guaquakiss in its purest and finest form :)02:54
guaquatreach: yes02:54
Romsterstjepan, really read the handbook and stuff...02:54
stjepanok, I will02:54
guaquayyyymmdd is the only date form i support :/02:54
Romsterheh so does sql.02:54
stjepando you ever run prtsweep?02:54
Romsterbut ya don't do writing yyyymmdd on letters though :D02:55
guaquausing any of the others is a suicide with a rusty barbwire02:55
treachfor instance a standard that forces the inclusion of rpm/gtk/qt is bad, one that makes sure 070201 means what I think it does is a *good* thing (TM) IMO. :)02:55 finnish we use [d]d.[m]m.yyyy02:55
Romsterstjepan, upto the person i don't run it very oftern.02:55
stjepanare all those tools installed by default: ?02:55
treachyymmdd ftw.02:56
stjepanor do I have to manually install those tools?02:56
Romsterstjepan, prt-get fsearch prtsweep02:57
Romsterwill tell you what port it belongs too.02:57
stjepanhow long did it take for you to configure kernel?02:57
treachsome tools are in a port called prtutils02:57
treachscroll up02:57
guaquatreach: y3k ftw ;)02:57
guaquaor is it y2,1k ftw :D02:57
Romsterstjepan, you asked that question awhile ago treach answered that02:57
treachykkk? I'm afraid that only washes in finland. :P02:57
stjepanI didn't02:58
Romsterstjepan, really depends hwo well you know the kernel and know your hardware02:58
aonwth? :)02:58
treachstjepan: You didn't?02:58
Romsterif you wanna be crazy enable everything then weed out what you don't need.02:58
stjepanok I really must go now... bye :)02:58
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Romsteryeash wtf he did ask... has that person got a short term memory problem...02:59
Romsteranyhow debuging bash code i made..02:59
Romsterthought i was anoying at times lol03:00
Romsterthat person gets the cake.03:01
treachactually, he *takes* it if I'm correctly informed.03:01
treachI don't give cakes to annoying people. :)03:02
Romstergets/takes, nearly the same definition03:02
Romsterhehe true03:02
treachthat's not even close to the same thing..03:02
Romsterunless its a choclate cake full of choclate laxitives :P03:02
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stjepanoh I forgot to ask something :)03:03
* Romster headdesks03:03
treachYou mean there still are questions not yet asked?03:03
stjepannow I'm on archlinux, can I use my config from arch (/proc/config.gz) in crux?03:03
Romsterand the q is?03:04
treachno, we use an ultra secret branch of the linux kernel.03:04
treachabsolutely incompatible with any other linux kernel.03:04
stjepanand the version?03:04
stjepando I have to take care about it?03:04
stjepanare configs compatible between various versions of the kernel?03:05
treachjust use make oldconfig03:05
Romsteryes that you can use afaik. providing its using udev too, or some alterattions would be needed.03:05
Romsteri'd diff the .config off the install cd to the one on your slack system stjepan03:05
Romsterand see for yourself the diferences.03:05
guaquacrux has vanilla kernel on the cd03:05
Romsteror the oldconfig03:05
Romstermy .config dosn't even resemble the one on the iso anymore :)03:05
treachstjepan: use your old config file, and "make oldconfig". Ask google for the details.03:06
aonmine never has03:06
aonimo it's better to start with mrproper :)03:06
stjepanthe kernel in arch is 2.6.1903:06
stjepanit's vanilla too03:06
Romstermrproper hrmm never used that target03:06
treachRomster: don't03:06
treachunless you have a backup. :P03:06
aoncome on03:07
Romsteri always used oldconfig with a newer kernel versiont hen somtimes tweeked settings if need be, or bored.03:07
aonconfiguring a kernel takes like four seconds :)03:07
Romstertreach, oviously :)03:07
aon  mrproper  - Remove all generated files + config + various backup files03:07
Romsteri keep all my kernel versions in /boot/kconfig-2.6.*03:07
teKi keep mine 'in' /proc/config.gz03:08
aonme too03:08
stjepanmake oldconfig03:08
stjepanmake dep && make bzImage && make modules && make modules_install ?03:08
Romsteri have it there too..03:08
stjepando I need make dep and make bzImage?03:08
teKas i use a script to update my kernel (with the previous config of course) this comes in quite handy03:08
treach<- ~/kernel/config.bak. :)03:08
teKstjepan: dep is not needed anymore03:09
Romsterstjepan, jsut make && make modules_install then copy and bzImage to /boot03:09
aoni seldom update my kernel :)03:09
Romsterthen edit lilo.conf then lilo then reboot and pray03:09
aonLinux beech 2.6.20-rc4-mm1 #1 Wed Jan 17 16:18:49 EET 2007 i686 athlon-4 i386 GNU/Linux03:09
aonlike, wtf03:09
teKaon: living on the bleeding edge :>03:09
stjepanRomster, aha, so I use "make oldconfig" just like "make menuconfig" ?03:09
teKI *never* used a file03:09
Romsteraon, really bleading edge there.03:09
aonoh right, -mm has a driver for my tv card03:09
aonit doesn't work, though03:09
Romsterstjepan, yes03:09
Romsteraon, thats lovely.03:10
treachstjepan: there is a README in the kernel source. And google knows a great deal as well.03:10
stjepan# make oldconfig    -> generate a .config file based on the running kernel03:10
stjepanthe running kernel...?03:10
Romsteraon, you be the one to ask the patchsets whats the url for the patchset for servers and desktops03:10
treachoddyly put.03:10
treachpresumeably they mean that the running kernel was configured from the present .config03:11
aonRomster: what patchset is that?03:11
Romsterstjepan, also its in the cd image cruxhandbook,txt03:11
aonthere are quite a lot of kernels (including the vanilla one) meant for servers and desktops03:12
Romsteraon, not sure if it was mm or something but there was a kernel patchset to optomise the kernel for desktops less latency etc, and others for servers03:12
stjepank, tnx, bye :)03:12
Romsteri'm on the vanila one03:12
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aonyeah, ck was the first to come in my mind too03:12
Romstermight of been ck03:12
Romsteri've googled around and never found any.03:13
aon...and almost every gentoo user has their own patchsets03:14
treachheh, I wonder if you could find two cruxusers with identical systems.. :p03:15
guaquaimmediately after install maybe03:18
treachwell, obviously I was refering to systems up, running, and in use.03:18
Romster that was the one i was looking for03:18
Romsterseen it ages ago never bookmarked it :/03:19
aonyup, ck03:19
Romsterthats for 2.6.19 i'm on 2.6.20 already :/03:19
Romsteraon, have you messed with KVM yet?03:20
teKi did not get any advantage for my desktop by using -ck Kernel03:20
treachwhy bother with strange patches if you're happy as you are?03:20
Romsteri've already set my kernel to low laterncy and 1000Hz clock03:20
teKit lower the latency on a CS gameserver though (also 'useless' as it did not lag before or during the use of -ck..)03:20
teKtreach: yup.03:21
aonRomster: nope03:21
teKback then there was no preemption or Clock Setting in vanilla03:21
RomsterteK, is now :)03:21
teKof course03:22
Romsterwhats stange is there is a new clock speed added to 2.6.2003:22
Romsterwas hoping to see a 1500Hz or something a bit quicker :P03:22
treachwhy not 1MHz when you're at it?03:23
teKyeah, but i have a 2200HZ CPU.. what now? (and it's a dual core, too!!) ;(03:23
Romstertreach, that be insane lol03:23
teK2200MHz I mean .. errrr..03:23
treach250Hz is enough for anyone. :)03:23
Romster2.2GHz :)03:23
Romsteri got clock on 1KHz03:24
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Romsterleft it at 250Hz on the servers though03:24
stjepanhi :D03:24
stjepananyone's got jaeger's email... I can't find it :(03:24
Romsterwb again03:24
treachgoogle, without doubt03:24
guaquaand his pkgfiles, without a doubt03:24
stjepangoogle doesn't like me03:24
Romsteryou'd find it in Pkgfiles grep them :P03:25
aon<nick> is a good bet, too03:25
Romsterhehe yeah03:25
stjepanomg it's here :) jaeger at morpheus dot net03:25
stjepansent... :)03:29
guaquai think he'll be delighted03:33
treachHow incredibly well put. :D03:33
stjepannooo, only one question is there :)03:33
stjepantreach, btw, why did you switch from slackware?03:36
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treachslacks package management leaves a lot to be desired imo.03:37
stjepantreach, what's wrong with it?03:38
treachand crux came along at a point where I was growing tired of trying to manually keep track of everything I had put in /usr/locale..03:38
stjepanisn't package management the biggest advantage of slack?03:38
stjepanRomster, I hate use flags03:38
treachstjepan: you can't make a nice pkgfile in slack and then install/uninstall stuff on a whim.03:39
Romsteris that in slack or was that only in gentoo03:39
treachuse flag is gentoo.03:39
stjepantreach, what about .SlackBuild?03:39
Romsteri went from debian to core then crux03:39
treachI don't think those where around back then.03:39
treachanyway iirc they are a bit more complicated than Pkgfiles.03:40
stjepanyes, they are03:40
treachand there is no infrastructure for sharing them either iirc.03:40
Romsterstjepan, just as easy to dupliate a Pkgfile and edit it and keep your own version :)03:40
stjepanhmm crux is pretty much like gentoo03:41
Romsteryeah that would suck not sharing..03:41
guaquacrux is nothing like gentoo03:41
treachstjepan: basically, I switched to crux because I thought Pkgfiles seemed a lot easier to deal with, and then I found out that there were so many available that I barely had to make any myself..03:41
guaquayou could also say gentoo is pretty much like debian03:41
stjepanguaqua, bsd init style scripts, rc.conf, pkgmk.conf, ports...?03:41
treachand red hat is just like golf.03:42
stjepanhow many pkgfiles are there?03:42
stjepangentoo has probably more than 20000 now...03:42
Romsteroh i forgot i used to mess with mandrake too b4 it got changed to mandriva03:42
treachdepends on whether you inlude hans ports :D03:42
Romsterbloated distro03:42
Romsteryhafri has alot of ports03:42
stjepansuse and ubuntu are bloats03:43
stjepanRomster, is slack a bloat for you too?03:43
Romsterbut the front page says all updated yet i find alot out of date :)03:43
Romsterstjepan, dunno not used slack03:43
Romsterstjepan, if you want a very customised distro LFS03:44
treachslack isn't bloated as suse etc. But it's a lot more messy than crux.03:44
Romsterotherwise CRUX is da distro to use for everything else.03:44
Romsteri've learned more from CRUX than any other distro.03:45
Romsterwhich is a good thing03:45
stjepanI've learned most from gentoo03:45
stjepanand learned how to break your system too :)03:45
treachthat's not something you have to learn on gentoo.03:46
treachit's an included feature.03:46
teKI didn't.. just as it does enlight you if you 'can' install gentoo... train a chimp for this...03:46
stjepanwhat's the gcc -omg-optimized flag?03:47
teKdoes NOT enlight...03:47
stjepanweird, that's gentoo's favorite one03:47
stjepanis -O3 safe?03:48
stjepan-O3 is max, but gentoo freaks use -O9!? o_O03:48
teKa friend of mine uses standard Harware WITH Gentoo and he cannot saturate his 100MBit Link, neither via Samba (lol..) nor via FTP or HTTP.. we'll investigate if it's gentoo's fault :-)03:48
treachteK: IMO portagee is a hopeless mess. Every time I've had to deal with it, I've run into ebuilds that doesn't work, are hidden, masked, depending on some other ebuild that is in one of those conditions etc.etc...03:49
treach*gah* what a PITA..03:49
stjepanbiiig pita...03:49
teKhm. I for my use (quite basic :>) emerge did well. But there is nothing that can compete with the beauty (read: simplicity) of a Pkgfile..03:52
teKwhat's wrong with my head/keyboard today ... just ignore the logical/syntactical/grammatical errors -_-03:52
teKI heared emerge is to be rewritten in C and it's said to be insanely fast in comparison to its python-compagnon BTW03:53
stjepanwhat do you think of this: ?03:53
stjepangood? safe to install? :)03:54
rehabdolli migrated from slack to crux with just one reboot :)03:54
teKbtw I read the wiki page about Pkgutils and planned "enhancements" and I hope some 70% of those ideas won't be realized or forced on CRUX users..03:56
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rehabdolltek: url?03:58
treachI doubt pretty much anything of that will happen, now that cptn left.03:59
teKuhg. Why this? rehabdoll:
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treachteK: what are you specifically against? Most of it really makes sense IMO.04:02
treachSome of it seems to be a bit overengineering atm, or rather unlikely to be needed but I guess you never know.04:03
* JKnife just found zshs built in ftp client04:04
teKa library for 'competitors' of prt-get?04:05
treachwell, there is ilenia (sp) among other things.04:06
treachalso, I guess some aren't satisfied with prt-get, so I suppose this is meant as a way to avid duplicating the most basic things.04:07
teKwhat about the layouts mentioned? As it does not state 'binary server' i suppose the server(s[!]) are supposed to build their packages... I doubt that on real servers there is a gcc to be found04:07
teKok, your point. but it really sounds like overengineering04:08
treachwell, afik, cptn still maintains prt-get. but if he stops, is there anyone here willing/able to take it up?04:08
teKpersonally I don't like this 'server and normal workstation' distinction.. it's just a matter of installed packages and some settings. But a different 'edition' of CRUX for this?..04:09
teKcptn != Johannes Winkelmann, right?04:09
treachhm.. I don't see that.04:09
treachno "=="04:09
teKwhy did he leave?04:10
treachno time04:10
teKthat's better than disappointment or smth.04:10
teKserver vs. desktop: can't my desktop be some kind of server if it runs sshd for administrational purposes?04:11
teKdoes it not need to be secured as good as a server is?04:11
treachof course, I mean't that I didn't see anything about that in the doc.04:12
treachdammit, I can't type either today. :/04:12
treachah, found it.04:13
teKit's not layouts in a traditional way, i missunderstood this..04:14
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guaquahow professional:
treachtelnet is one of those techs that never should have been invented.06:35
teKi just used rlogin -l root somewhere.far06:36
treachheh, there's another one.06:36
teKit's a solaris box with telnet enabled, let's see..06:37
guaquathere's nothing wrong with telnet, just with people using it in all the wrong places :/06:37
treachok, I guess it's ok over a serial cable.06:38
treachor something.06:38
teKit does not work on Solaris 8 :(06:39
teK"they" used to train as in UNIX on a solaris box but i resigned from school just lasst week, damn!!!06:39
teKas = us06:39
guaquai just quit my c programming course. it was like trying to use your dick to put out candles06:40
treachheh, it takes time.06:41
guaquaassignments that focused more on trying to make things harder06:41
treachwhich is what you never get in schools. it's all about getting stuff reasonably working and then turn the crap in so you can move on.06:41
treachwhich is one of the reasons I think many forms of higher education sucks.06:42
guaquai just don't see the idea of doing string manipulation with buffer handling...06:42
guaquai must be efficient if it gets the job done06:43
treachwell, I'm afraid you'll have to ask Kernighan about such details. ;)06:43
teKI could laugh my ass off as our super-hero-power-teacher LOVES Solaris :>06:43
guaquamaybe i should just keep to python, java and the likes :)06:44
treachsolaris ships with way too much stuff turned on.06:44
guaquaand installed...06:44
guaquait's like 5 gigabytes of crap by default?06:45
teKgive me a second06:45
treachand it takes backward compatibility way to far.06:45
treachguaqua: something like that.06:45
treachstill smaller than vista though :D06:45
teKthe most disgusting thing is that it uses (partly) localized man pages -_-06:47
teK# netstat -a | grep -c LISTEN06:47
teKthere < 5 Ports actually *needed*06:48
guaqua:S :S :S06:49
guaquai wonder if there's a solaris virtual machine available for vmware06:50
teKbesides the fact that, for example Port 81 serves a webpage for administration by a Java applet that doesn't work06:50
treachho, hum..06:50
treachguaqua: I hope you have a huge box then. :P06:50
treachAnd I don't think there is one, btw, maybe for one of the opensolaris projects06:51
guaquai only have the vmware player now06:52
guaquaand it can't create new vmdk:s06:52
teKi'd *love* to go back to myold school and do (after a successful login) echo "you are vulnerable^Wfucked" > /etc/motd ...06:53
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RyoSprologic: hi08:38
RyoSyou need me to run your script today?08:39
ningo<prologic> oh yes, run my script, run it, yeah08:43
ningosorry, I better go celebrating08:44
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jjpkClosing irssi properly is quite the challenge...08:49
treachwhat? You mean there is another way than clicking on that X thingy up to the far right?08:50
jjpkzomg and it depends on another program!111108:50
* ningo faints08:51
treachyeah, lazy bastards, they should write their own linked lists.08:51
jjpkThen there is the opposite end of the spectrum.08:55
jjpkThe infamous anselm started yet another wm.08:56
treachOMG.. The "root wm" ?08:56
jjpkThe mailing list says it's called "stereo wm"08:56
treach"One window is enough for elite users"?08:57
ningojjpk: o rly?08:57
teKfifawm :\08:57
ningojjpk: I'm practically in #wmii the whole time and didn't recognize08:57
ningooh and a new webpage too!08:57
jjpkThat channel is quite dead anyway, at least when I idled there for a bit.08:57
ningojjpk: on
jjpkyes, but this was a few months ago.08:58
ningofar from it08:58
ningomost of the time uriel is yelling "fuck, shit" and various combination of those two words08:58
sepen|workjaeger, are you here?08:59
ningoalways idle and watching you09:00
sepen|workhi! Im porting the new ati driver and also Im rewriting your gl-select util for use with ati09:01
sepen|workcan you take a look please?09:01
jaegerit looks ok to me, but I have no experience with the ati stuff09:04
RyoSask tilman :)09:04
sepen|workjaeger, I think could be very useful for people09:05
sepen|workI like your gl-select tool xD09:05
sepen|workI write a patch for it but Im testing it on my chrooted crux09:05
jaegerI'm sure it would, and I have no objections to adding ati support to the script, I just can't really support it since my hardware is nvidia09:05
sepen|workyeah! I can test it, I have both cards09:06
sepen|workit's works fine for me but I think another people should test it09:08
jaegeralways good to have more testing09:08
sepen|workRyoS, why tilman?09:09
RyoShe is an ati expert IIRC09:09
sepen|worktilman, jau!09:10
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sepen|workjaeger, also I copied the same README file as your09:11
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sepen|workj^2, hola loko! #crux-es09:52
tilmansepen|work: jau?09:52
j^2sepen|work: :D09:53
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AkiraYukihi all10:55
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stjepanjaeger, hi11:53
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stjepancan I use kernel config from crux installation CD for my new crux system?12:04
JKnifewhy would you?12:04
stjepanbecause I mind configuring my kernel from scratch12:05
stjepanthere will be lots of things which I'll miss, like iptables12:05
* JKnife shrugs12:06
JKnifesee if the config is in /proc/config.gz12:07
stjepanwhere? on the installation cd?12:07
JKnifeyeah.. boot up.. and look in /proc for config.gz12:07
stjepansure... it will be there12:07
stjepandid you configure your kernel from scratch?12:07
stjepanhow much time did it take?12:08
treachanother way would be to configure anything you're uncertain about as modules.12:08
tilmandepends on how often you already configured the linux kernel12:08
JKnifenot long.. i have been configuring my own since.. umm12:08
JKnifeat least 5-6 years12:08
stjepanno, I meant how much time did configuring take (in minutes, not years :))12:09
JKnifenot long12:09
stjepan"not long" is a relative term :)12:09
JKnifeand the reason is i have been doing it for years.. so i know what i need and where it is12:09
RedShiftfirst time take about an hour at most12:09
RedShiftafter you get used to it it takes like 10 minutes12:10
stjepanJKnife, what did you enable?12:10
JKnifestuff needed for my pc12:10
stjepanI've configured kernel from scatch few times12:10
stjepanJKnife, what was that, except hardware stuff?12:10
tilmananyway, as you said, you can copy the crux' kernel's config from proc and use that as a base12:10
RedShiftstjepan: why don't you just make menuconfig and add features when you need them12:10
JKnifeencryption schemes, fb console, boot logo12:10
JKnifekexec, and a few other things12:11
stjepanRedShift, I don't know what I need...12:11
stjepando you use a firewall?12:11
RedShiftstjepan: if you don't know that you  need it, you can disable it safely :-)12:11
JKnifehas a built in firewall12:11
stjepando you use iptables?12:11
JKnifei like bare bones rather then security12:12
treachmaybe you should concentrate a bit more on what YOU need instead of what everyone else is using.12:12
JKnifeif i wanted security i would put openbsd back on12:12
stjepanI'm gonna turn on firewall in my router....12:12
stjepanI'm pretty new there :(12:12
stjepanWAN Port Ping Reply: disabled12:13
RedShiftstjepan: maybe crux isn't the right distribution for you.12:13
stjepanIP Packet Filtering: enabled12:13
RedShiftstjepan: have you heard about ubuntu?12:13
stjepanTraffic Direction: outbound12:13
stjepanis this ok?12:13
stjepanRedShift, yes, crux is just fine for me12:13
stjepanI've tried 100000 distros...12:13
treachthere seems to be some doubt about that.12:14
stjepanno, really12:14
guaquaif you have to ask someone else what you need, then it's not for you12:14
JKnifewhat do you want from crux as a distro?12:14
stjepanguaqua, asking so for getting help12:14
stjepanJKnife, full control, speed, stability12:14
treachyou see, cruxers are generally a cranky bunch of oldtimers who usually ask google when they have problems.12:15
stjepaneasy package installing12:15
guaquaget the help after you read the docs12:15
JKnifestjepan: try archlinux then =\12:15
stjepanJKnife, I'm right now on it12:15
guaquacrux can give all of that, but not easily12:15
RedShiftstjepan: I tought kernelnewbies have some howto's on compiling kernels, maybe you should hang around there first12:15
stjepanand from what I've heard, crux seems ok12:15
stjepanuhh I've read gentoo docs 100 times, installed it 100 times12:15
JKnifegentoo is crap =\12:15
guaquagentoo is crap12:16
RedShiftstjepan: jah, so?12:16
guaquago read crux docs and that's all you need12:16
stjepanI don't know... I just have bad experiences with enabling iptables in gentoo...12:16
treachRedShift: bah, the README in the source dir plus reading the help in make menuconfig should be enough for anyone. :)12:16
guaquaif you run into trouble, then recompile12:16
stjepanah ok, I will do it myself and build my crux12:16
tilmantreach: i hope you're kidding!12:16
guaquaJKnife: i was just a little slower :D12:16
tilmanback in the day, the kernel howto was helpful12:16
JKnifeguaqua: by a hair12:16
stjepanI just miss some self confidence, that's all12:16
tilmanbut i'm not sure whether it's updated for 2.4 or even 2.612:16
RedShifttreach: I never read the readme, I just did a make menuconfig... every configurable option is pretty logical and self explainatory12:16
treachtilman: it was enough for me.. around kernel 2.0.24 or so. :P12:17
* JKnife never used a kernel older then 2.4 =\12:17
tilmani was young and dumb at that time and didn't know much about linux ;)12:17
treachconsiderably less stuff in it back then though.12:17
* RedShift never used a kernel older than 2.612:17
JKnifei did use the *SHORT* lived 2.5 kernel =\12:17
JKnifeRedShift: really?12:18
JKnifenever used debian then huh?12:18
RedShiftJKnife: yes I'm pretty new, I really started using linux around kernel 2.6.712:18
treachtilman: don't worry, I wasn't much brighter then. Discovered a lot by trial and error.12:18
guaquai learned to compile the kernel from the howto... wget kernel && tar xvvzf kernel && ln -s kernel linux && make clean && make menuconfig && make all && make modules_install && cp arch/i386/boot/bzImage /boot/vmlinuz-version && cp /12:18
tilmanthe default values should keep you from building a kernel that doesn't work at all, too12:18
tilmanif you know your cpu arch12:18
guaquaand that's about there is to know12:18
treachlike that removing glibc isn't a good idea. :D12:18
tilmanwhen i started, the whole package idea annoyed me a lot12:19
tilmanthough i don't exactly remember what the problem was12:19
guaquai hated redhat12:19
guaquaaround 6.212:19
guaquacouldn't even compile my own kernel12:19
JKniferpm hell!12:19
guaquabecause of buggy libraries12:19
treachguaqua: yeah, brightheads.12:19
treachthey shipped a broken gcc..12:19
guaquanever had any trouble compiling a kernel on crux12:19
stjepanI don't know much about networking.... JKnife, can you help me, is this ok: ?12:20
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JKnifethat's ok.. Ubuntu+1 (v 7.04) right now has a b0rk3d ld12:20
JKnifestjepan: ==12:20
stjepanJKnife, ??12:20
treachwell. it's "+1"..12:20
JKnifei don't know your hardware12:20
stjepanJKnife, that's my router config12:20
guaquawhat is this config?12:21
guaquakernel config?12:21
stjepanrouter config12:21
stjepanawgh, ok I must read some docs... too lazy, sry12:21
guaquaso this is not about configuring kernel anymore?12:21
stjepanah never mind12:21
JKnifestjepan: yeah that is fine12:21
guaquayou should try firewalling howto and understand the basics12:21
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guaquathe howto collection is a bit outdated nowadays12:22
guaquaso the commands might be a bit old...but the basic rules don't change12:22
guaquaalways close everything and then open the ports you need12:22
treachbut it's safer if you don't open anything. Just close everything.12:23
guaquathat too12:24
treachparticulary outgoing ports must be closed.12:24
RedShiftpull the cable12:24
RedShiftthat always worked for me12:24
guaquait's always fun to lock yourself out :D12:24
tilmani hear port 80 is very evil12:24
JKnife8080 is worse12:24
tilmanalmost as dangerous as port 2512:24
guaquaalso, always do the firewall configuration over ssh and from the most remote place you can find12:25
JKnife31338 is the good port12:25
treachtilman: I'd be satisfied if anything related to 6667 got closed.12:25
RedShiftI heard that port 137, 139 and 445 is where the devil lives12:26
JKnifethis sucks.. i rebuilt w3m with image supprt.. and now it is not displaying a image! I WANT MY PORN IN A CONSOLE DAMNIT!12:26
JKnifewait.. i think i know12:27
treachI tried that ages ago on my laptop, but it wasn't much fun. :-/12:27
JKnife=\ well that was a bust.. options is set up to show inline images.. but they are not showing up :(12:29
JKnifelooks like i fail12:29
treachI had it working, but it was really buggy.12:29
j^2oh...were you jackknifed? :P12:30
* j^2 takes a bow12:30
treachj^2: it was mackie who had the knife you dumbass.12:30
j^2hahah love you too treach12:30
treachyou're welcome. :)12:30
treachI figured I had been to nice to you lately. :D12:31
j^2so true, i thought we12:31
j^2_might_ actually becoume friends12:31
* tilman does a dance12:37
stjepani'm back12:39
stjepanwhy is separator between package name and version '#' and not '-'? Like bash#2.05-1.pkg.tar.gz... why not bash-2.05-1.pkg.tar.gz?12:40
stjepanis there a reason for this?12:40
guaquathere are no answers, onle questions12:41
ningostjepan: that was a decision by per i suppose12:41
treach"Is there a God?"12:41
treach"If so, does he shave?"12:41
stjepantreach, no12:42
treach"Would he accept a sandwich with pickles on for breakfast?"12:42
stjepanwhy not :)12:42
seekwillUsing # as a delimiter makes it a bit easier to seperate package name and version.12:42
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stjepanseekwill, how's that easier than - ?12:42
tilmanever seen a # in a package name?12:43
tilmanever seen a - in a package name?12:43
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stjepantilman, 1. no, except in crux 2. yes, everywhere else12:43
treachif you parse the line it's easier to distinguish something uniqe, I guess..12:44
seekwill# is not in a package name12:44
tilmanbut - might be12:44
seekwillSay the package name was "php-mysql". So what you get, php-mysql-5.0.27-5.0.3-1.tar.gz12:44
seekwill(bad example heh)12:44
j^2plus if you run multiple distros, you know which one is crux's12:44
j^2some distros still use /usr/local unlike us12:45
stjepanseekwill, I see now, thanks12:45
stjepanbut shouldn't package revision be separated with # too?12:45
tilmanthe current system has been working well for years12:46
tilmannot sure there's a problem to solve here12:46
treachno, but there are questions to ask, apparently.12:47
stjepanwhy's crux also binary package based?12:47
treachit isn't12:47
jaegerstjepan: I was gone when you came in, but hello12:47
tilmangotta run12:47
stjepanjaeger, heya12:47
stjepantilman, put there are .pkg.tar.gzs, which are binary, precompiled packages12:47
treachbut that doesn't make crux binary based.12:48
stjepanwhy are there binary packages anyway?12:48
jjpkBinary based is debian, arch, slack. The software is precompiled.12:48
jjpkIn crux, this is not the case.12:48
treachstjepan: would you like to start with bare metal and source code?12:48
treachI wouldn't. Maybe you should think before you ask sometimes.12:49
stjepanI mean, why doesn't it install the package after building it, just like gentoo's emerge does?12:49
stjepantreach, ^12:49
stjepan(yes, I know there's pkgmk -i)12:49
treachit does, if you add the right switch12:49
jjpkOf course it does install it, you have to tell it.12:49
jjpkThose *.pkg.tar.gz files are just the build output saved.12:50
stjepanah, so it's easy to backup them? is this one of the reasons?12:50
stjepanjaeger, from when do you use aiglx+beryl?12:51
stjepangot it ;)12:51
tilmanare there non-binary _packages_?12:51
jaegerI don't remember exactly when I started messing with it but it's been a while now12:51
* tilman tries to imagine source-based _packages_12:51
tilmanoh, maybe you mean ports12:51
stjepantilman, yes that's weird... we even call Pkgfiles ports12:52
stjepaneven ports are not the correct word12:52
stjepanthose are just taken from BSD12:52
tilmanok, i'll ignore you now12:52
tilmantoo late12:52
bd2stjepan, it's because you haven't read handbook prior to ask questions ;-) in the handbook there is secret word, that will unignore you automatically, find it ;-)12:53
stjepanwikipedia says: "The use of the word port in this context is borrowed from the BSD world, where a port refers to a program that has been ported to a system or platform. The word can sometimes be a bit misleading since most programs require no actual porting to run on CRUX (or on Linux in general)."12:53
stjepanbd2, but he ignored me because of packages-ports?12:54
bd2no, because you havent's read handbook.12:54
stjepanat what point?12:54
treachbefore you start is a good time.12:54
guaquaand read now12:55
stjepank, sry12:55
stjepanbut I've already read i12:55
guaquaand don't give us anything from wikipedia about crux in the next year or so. if you can find something about crux in wikipedia after this period of one may well paste all you find12:56
stjepanguaqua, what's wrong with wikipedia?12:56
treachwe know better than what's written there?12:57
stjepantreach, is that a lie what wikipedia says about "ports"?12:58
treachno, it's not a "lie" but it's a bit misleading.12:58
guaquaand it doesn't really matter what a definition of ports is in the common world. we are talking about the terminology used among cruxers12:59
treachI kind of doubt that most stuff in the freebsd ports are "ports" in the sense it's used in the paragraph above. At least nowadays.12:59
treachexactly. "It means what I say it means, no more, no less". Or something like that. :P13:00
guaquabut really13:00
treachThis is crux, so we get to decide what a crux port is.13:00
guaquapkgmk creates a package13:00
stjepanof course13:00
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stjepanbd2, really? I can't find anything13:01
guaquaand a Pkgfile + pre- + post-install scripts + patches + rc.d files make up a port in a crux ports collection13:01
guaquawithout forgetting md5sum & footprint13:01
guaquawhich...i tend to rm most of the time :D13:02
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bd2stjepan, heh.. the secret word is "partition", the last one in handbook. ;-)13:03
stjepanbd2, no, really13:04
stjepanuhh I must go now... see ya later13:05
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treachobnoxious people will be forced to read the handbook in russian, and take an exam before getting of the ignore-list.13:05
guaquawell this one at least is polite after we are rude to him13:07
treachwe were rude?13:07
treachI think we were quite polite considering the barrage of silly questions.13:07
guaquawell i was, pretty openly in my own opinion :)13:08
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sepenjaeger, Im using my ati port now, it works fine!14:49
sepenalso gl-select revertion14:50
tilmanAuge^: are you from frankfurt/main?15:07
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Auge^tilman: yeah. why?15:19
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tilmanAuge^: got my privmsg? or is freenode interveaning?:)15:21
Auge^i got u...15:22
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sepenati propietary driver now working fine!
sepenjaeger, can you take a look to my gl-select modification please?16:50
trisepen, i will try the driver. a few weeks ago i made my one Package File but maybe yours is working "better"16:52
trisepen, do you have a online port repository ?16:52
sepentri, also you need my modification of gl-select16:52
triis this new driver included ?16:53
sepenbut this ports needs gl-select as dependency and at this moment the only gl-select available don0t support ati yet16:53
sepenfor this reason ati port is not included yet on my repo16:53
tria i see - so i have to use your gl-select and the driver from the tmp directory ?16:53
sepenIm working fine!16:54
sependirect rendering: Yes16:54
sepenalso the port includes 'atieventsd' tool16:54
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sepenatieventsd - ATI external events daemon16:55
sepenjaeger out!16:55
triwhat is this atieventsd16:56
trior for what do i need it16:56
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sepenman atieventsd: user-level application that monitors16:59
sepen       various system events such as ACPI or hotplug, then notifies the driver via the X16:59
sepen       extensions interface that the event has occured.16:59
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sepenyou can run as daemon if you want16:59
trisounds great17:02
sepenthe most important thing we need is my new gl-select modification17:07
sepenati port depends on it17:08
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JKnife._. I didn't have xrdb installed18:02
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* Romster yawns19:49
Romsterafternoon all19:49
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