IRC Logs for #crux Friday, 2007-03-16

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prologic$ xvinfo01:05
prologic-bash: xvinfo: command not found01:05
prologicIt seems there is no Xvideo support for your video card available.01:05
prologicRun 'xvinfo' to verify its Xv support and read DOCS/HTML/en/video.html#xv!01:05
prologicthis is a via onboard video card01:05
pitillogood morning01:53
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sepenmorning all03:08
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daggerrRomster, i got it working before using the old version with a kernel module and a daemon, but now the project has changed and they use an alsa plugin and a daemon04:00
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Romsterdaggerr, ah k04:05
aspetoswhy did they put audio through usb anyways?04:27
treachbtw, anyone who have managed to get hold of source to the shadow package?05:02
treach(All I get is a "Name or service not known" error)05:03
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prologicwhat version treach ?05:11
prologicI probably have it somewhere05:12
prologicone sec05:12
prologic# ls shadow* -l05:13
prologic-rw-r--r-- 1 root root       0 2007-03-05 08:29 shadow-
prologic-r--r--r-- 1 root root 1019749 2007-03-03 01:32 shadow-4.0.7.tar.bz205:13
prologicsorry :/05:13
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prologicthere ya go :)05:17
treachI was just about to start looking for some gentoo mirror.05:18
prologicbeat ya to it :)05:18
treachhmm.. exactly what kind of rootkited stuff are you trying to feed me? ;)05:19
treach(md5sum error :( )05:19
prologicwhat ?05:20
prologicstarnge :)05:20
* prologic checks05:20
prologicI got it from there05:20
prologicit's possible it's a gentoo-patched source05:21
prologiclike them debian sources05:21
treachheh, maybe.05:21
treachah, finally found the right file.05:29
treachprologic, the one you pointed at were not good. I had better luck with what I found on my friendly local gentoo mirror.05:31
treachs were/was05:31
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treach(just in case you'd need it yourself)05:34
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prologicmind pasting the link to your proper one :)05:34
prologicI'll add it to my archive05:34
treachbitte sehr.05:37
prologic$ ssh root@data "du -s -h /data/crux/"05:38
prologic6.8G    /data/crux/05:38
prologic$ ssh root@data "du -s -h /data/crux/{sources,packages}/"05:38
prologic3.9G    /data/crux/sources/05:38
prologic3.0G    /data/crux/packages/05:38
treachFor a moment I got the impression you were useing sshfs. :)05:38
treachI wondered why you got sane numbers..05:39
prologicI do :)05:39
prologicyeah all my /mnt/crux/ moutn points claim to be 1000G :)05:39
prologicit's frigg'n amazing!05:39
prologicand they're all empty!05:39
prologicmakes me wonder when they'll fix that stupid bug05:40
treachand no matter how much you stuff there, they never full.05:40
prologiceven I've toyed with making user-land file systems05:40
prologicand it ain't that hard to get it right :)05:40
treachmaybe, anyhow, afk.05:40
rxiprologic: notice you dont conform to the LSB :P05:47
prologicwtf is that :)05:48
rxilinux standard base05:48
rxilike standards for where things live05:48
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* prologic reads05:48
rxionly a few of the commercial distros use it iirc05:49
treachsmall wonder.05:50
treachthat only some commercial distros use it.05:51
treachlook at it - it's pretty much tailored for SuSE/RedHat.05:51
prologicI can't find anywhere where it says anything about the standardization of pathnames :)05:52
treachfor instance, if you don't use RPM, you out of compliance right there.05:52
rxitreach: i dont think thats part of it05:52
treachs /you/you're05:52
treachit is.05:52
prologicwell therefore it isn't a standard05:52
treachlook it up.05:52
prologicstandards don't force a tool on the implementation05:53
prologicrather guidelines05:53
treachstandards are forcing, that's the entire point!05:57
treacheither you follow the standard or you don't.05:58
rxinot really05:59
prologicno I don't agree either treach06:00
prologicstandards ensure a certain quality about something06:00
prologica coherence06:00
prologicthey don't force you to specifically use something over something else06:00
treachno, that's not what I meant.06:00
prologicthat's sll in the architectural choices in implementation (done in design)06:00
prologicok :006:00
treachMaybe we misunderstood each others.06:00
treachI meant that you have to use RPM to be fully LSB compliant.06:01
treachNot that you have to use LSB06:01
prologicwhich in my books makes that _not_ a standard :)06:02
prologicbut some implementation - Redhat/SuSe :)06:02
prologicI would call LSB a specifications document for those distros :)06:02
treachtopic says it all.06:04
rxiaccording to wikipedia the distro justhas to support rpm not use it06:05
prologicwell that's easy06:05
prologicinstall alien :)06:05
treachyeah. I just found something indicating that, not sure how to interpret it.06:05
prologicNote: The LSB does not require the kernel to be Linux; the set of mandated options reflects current existing practice, but may be modified in future releases.06:06
prologicwtf ?06:06
prologicbut isn't this the LInux Base Standard ?06:06
prologicI should show this to my se profressors06:06
prologicbetter sill my spice and cmmi lecturers06:06
treachI also like the "Mandantory options" stuff.06:07
treacherr, "Mandantory optional" I mean06:07
rxiso in conclusion LSB doesnt force you to use the RPM format06:10
prologicprobably not06:11
treachI guess that depends a bit on what "or supply an installer which is LSB conforming" really means.06:11
prologicbut it's also the worst standards I've seen :)06:12
teKIt's aimed on HURD :>06:12
treachNah, GNU/Windows.06:12
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teK /lib is symlinked to C:\Windows\System32, right?06:15
RedShiftwhat the07:37
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unexistHey, is there any option to force recreation of the footprints if it's missing?10:26
unexistIt's kind of annoying that prt-get stops everytime when this happens.10:26
guaquaman prt-get.conf10:27
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guaquaor man pkgmk.conf10:27
unexistAnd what should I find there? I searched there already.10:29
j^2ping ping ping10:29
j^2i need an iptables guru10:29
j^2need help10:29
guaquaj^2: man iptables10:30
j^2need to allow 443 with a proxy... trouble shot down to iptables10:30
guaquaunexist: vim /etc/pkgmk.conf10:31
guaquaand put ignore footprints there10:31
unexistguaqua, thanks.10:32
mike_kj^2: or squid guru?10:33
j^2mike_k: it's just always allowing 443 through, not even touching the proxy10:35
j^2that's what i want to o10:35
mike_kI can't get where the difficulty is?10:36
j^2i cant figure out what to insert in to the chain10:37
j^2the actaul command10:37
j^2it blows10:37
mike_kfor  a router? iptables -I FORWARD -p tcp --dport 443 -j ACCEPT10:37
j^2that's it?10:38
ningoiptables suck anyway, use pf, be strong10:38
RyoSyea pf rocks ;)10:38
* RyoS loves /etc/pf.conf (openbsd)10:39
j^2it's still not allawing...10:39
j^2check this out... --->10:39
j^2first off10:40
j^2the prerouting isnt there :-O10:40
j^2how do i list PREROUTING?10:41
j^2iptables -L doesnt work10:41
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* RedShift vouches for RyoS's solution14:09
guaquadamn apache14:16
guaquaalways 40314:16
RedShiftapache > *14:16
guaquastill i'd like to get my sites running :D14:16
RedShiftYou can hire me14:17
RedShiftI am the apache expert14:17
guaquais there some sort of extra protection then?14:17
RedShiftextra protection?14:18
RedShiftnot really14:18
RedShiftbut I know all the ins and outs of apache14:18
guaqualike if something's outside of doc root etc14:18
guaquai mean, my main vhost works, but the others dont14:18
guaquathere are enough rights etc14:18
RedShiftcan you show me your httpd.conf including your virtual hosts14:19
RedShiftguaqua: and on what vhost do you get that error?14:20
guaquathe last two give me 40314:20
guaquatest is just a test like one would think14:20
guaquaeverything's owned by www-data and have 75514:21
RedShiftguaqua: what does the error log say you?14:22
guaquaclient denied by server configuration: /s/home/www/test/14:22
RedShiftand there aren't any .htaccess files in those website directories?14:23
guaquathe one that works has one though14:23
guaquabut it shouldn't matter14:23
RedShiftdoes the directory of the website have execute (list) permissions on them?14:23
RedShiftbut wait14:23
guaqua755 for everything14:24
RedShiftit says client denied by server config14:24
RedShiftthat's strange14:24
RedShiftdid you try specifying the port number at the ServerName directives?14:25
RedShiftbecause at some vhosts you do, on others you don't14:25
guaquai've tried a whole bunch of stuff :D14:25
RedShiftand the other sites work fine?14:27
guaquait was me having no special allow specified for the vhosts dir14:27
RedShiftthat's strange14:28
RedShiftbecause the other virtual hosts work you said14:28
guaquaonly the main one works, and i had the allow specified for it14:28
RedShiftaah right, in my config I said Directory /home Allow from all14:29
* JKnife likes lighttpd over apache14:30
* RedShift ignores JKnife14:31
RedShiftapache ftw14:32
JKnifeweb server fight!14:33
RedShiftthe apache docs own14:33
RedShiftkudos for the apache documentation team14:33
RedShiftI win14:36
RedShiftnothing is as well documented as httpd14:37
jkrYou forgot IIS :D14:37
RedShiftlighttpd might be better14:37
RedShiftbut when it comes to documentation14:37
RedShiftI stick with whatever has the best documentation14:37
RedShiftIIS, what's that?14:37
jkrlighttpd has good documentation14:37
RedShiftdon't we hack those14:37
jkrYup :)14:37
jkrThe problem with the documentation is that the config syntax is somewhat shitty in some cases14:38
jkrMakes the docs hard to understand sometimes14:38
RedShiftapache above all else14:39
jkrDidn't know that YouTube & Wikipedia run on lighttpd14:39
prologicmorn'n all14:39
RedShiftehlo prologic14:39
jkrHrhr, got a timeout when trying to open the documentation site of lighttpd *g*14:40
prologiclighttpd rocks :)14:40
jkrYup, indeed. I wonder why I'm still using Apache on my server14:40
RedShiftapache should really get working on that user mpm14:40
RedShiftthat would solve alot of problems14:40
RedShiftdoes lighttpd have the ability to run virtual hosts under another user than the webserver user?14:41
jkrDon't know, I've never been serving anything but static HTML from /var/www :)14:42
prologicnot sure myself14:42
prologicbut this woudln't be very hard14:42
prologicI'm gonna be using cherrypy myself soon14:43
jkrSounds like python :(14:43
prologicit is14:44
RedShiftthey don't14:44
RedShiftbut they do have virtual hosts from mysql14:44
RedShiftthat's cool14:44
prologicwhy do you people generally gawk and :( at python and the like ? :)14:44
jkrPython sucks, what's gawd? :D14:45
prologicafter 50/60yrs of computing and programming you'd think we'd move away from the infactuation with speed of software - computers are fast enough these days14:45
prologicpython sucks is not a valid statement as no language sucks14:45
prologicevery language has it's advantages and disadvantages, that's the whole point of software architecture14:45
RedShiftprologic: the faster computers become the less programmers care14:45
jkrWhat's the advantage of Python? :)14:46
RedShifttake a look at windows vista... it's like riding a bike with a 50kg rock attached to it14:46
jkrRedShift: You got it! :)14:46
prologicRedShift, exactly14:46
prologicspeed won't become an issue eventually - sort of hasn't today14:46
jkrI don't like Java for the same reason, but Python is even worse14:46
prologicthough I don't agree with Microsoft's methods or attitude towards hardware and software14:47
prologicyou shoujldn't make software incrasinly complex just because there's more hardware resources to consume14:47
prologicjkr, you show me why java adn python are so bad and I might be inclined to take a look14:48
JKnifeohh i called the war and went afk ».»14:48
jkrprologic: Slow14:48
prologicslow isn't a good reason14:48
RedShiftprologic: I have to say though, when it comes to code14:48
prologicyou'd likely also say that Haskell is a bad langauge too14:48
RedShiftI think microsoft produces alot of clean code14:48
prologicprobably lately - yes14:49
jkrIt is a good reason for me, because I'm sticking with a P4 1.8GHz14:49
prologicclean, but unnecessarily complex software14:49
RedShiftfrom a programmers view it's probably the way you really want to implement something14:49
prologicjkr, and you think that software written in Python vs. C is really going to make a difference to your user experience on that hardware ?14:49
prologicgive me a b reak14:49
RedShiftwhen looking at the .net framework I really see some good ideas14:50
prologicunless you're doing heavy computation or trying to calculate pi to x digits, it ain't14:50
jkrprologic: Exactly14:50
prologicthe .net concept is nice as is cli14:50
prologicdon't really like the langauges implemented to use them though :)14:50
jkrMy machine almost freezes when I start nicotine14:50
prologicC# argg ;)14:50
RedShiftprologic: I have noticed python being slower, not depending on what hardware it's being used14:50
prologicactually python is quite fast compared with java14:51
jkrLimewire works fine *g*14:51
RedShiftbut everything is fast when you compare it with a 38614:52
prologicthis is true14:52
prologicsee JKr I'll never agree with your logic or reasoning14:53
prologicI have limewiere here too14:53
prologicand it runs and operates just as quick as xchat - written in C14:53
prologicso your arguments for language choice based on speed is flawed14:53
jkrIt's not only speed, but speed is the only reason I can talk about with you :)14:53
prologicunless you're choosing a lgnague over another for performance reasons - having a performance requirement that X language cannot meet that Y language can14:53
prologicgo study software engineering!14:54
jkrOther reasons would be that I hate the syntax, but that's nothing we can really discuss about on an objective basis14:54
RedShiftjah but limewire takes a while to start14:54
RedShiftwhile xchat doesn't14:54
prologicnot necessarily14:55
prologicit's maybe 1-2s slower to load14:55
jdolan_limewire only appears to run as fast as xchat because your hardware is probably pretty quick.14:55
jdolan_i bet on a p166 limewire would suck.14:55
prologicmost likely14:55
RedShiftjava is meant to be universal though14:55
RedShiftthat's probably part of it's slowlyness14:55
RedShiftand it's big bloated ass too14:55
prologiccross platform compatibilty is usually a good reason to choose a language over another such as C/C++14:56
jkrThat's what I dislike Java for - what's a language good for if you can't even do simplest system tasks as fork()?14:56
jkrIt's a bit too portable IMO14:56
prologicpoint I'm trying to make jkr, is you need to choose languages objectively, not based on some factor with no basis behind it14:56
prologicjust choosing C because it's fast is no good reason14:56
prologicC will always be fast, it's as clost to the hardware and as close to assembler as you can get!14:57
jkrFor me it is a very good reason. I like fast software. I don't like slow software. It's that simple14:57
RedShiftyou have to wonder about things like bugs too14:57
RedShiftI feel that C software is very prone to bugs14:57
prologicit is14:57
RedShift(with bugs being both regular bugs and security issues)14:57
prologicbecause of it's inherent design14:58
prologicand becuase a lot of programmers don't fully understand how to use it14:58
RedShiftC was designed in the 60's-70's14:58
prologicand also it is a lower level language14:58
prologicit's easier to make mistakes with low level languages14:58
jkrIt's prone to bugs because it let's programmers do the security stuff - no good idea in most cases :)14:58
prologicit's the saying14:59
RedShiftC was designed for a world 35 years ago14:59
treachprologic, so what? Higher level languages make developers lazy.14:59
RedShifttimes have changed14:59
prologicjust becuase you can shoot yourself in the foot doesn't mean you should :)14:59
prologicbut a lot of software develoeprs do14:59
treachI'm not sure that's any better.14:59
tilmanyay, c bashing14:59
prologictreach, no they don't14:59
jkrEver tried to write an OS in Python? ;)14:59
treachof course it does.14:59
tilmanjkr: good point, i wondered whether i should make it14:59
RedShiftI'm not really against C, but C is _old_14:59
prologictreach, if higher level languages made develoeprs lazy, why do so many graduates not understand the basic principles of programming ? :)15:00
prologicit's sad ;/15:00
RedShiftit was created for a different world15:00
jkrOr Java? It's very portable and should work on every hardware *g*15:00
treachprologic, because they aren't used to programming really, and they programmed in high level programs.15:00
prologicI agree15:00
prologicit is the schools and university's fault slightly15:01
treachI don't think so.15:01
prologicif you don't understand the basics of programming, yet try to do programming even at a high level you'll fail15:01
RedShiftI think I'm going to write my own kernel in php15:01
prologicunless we move to yet a higher paradigm of programming, where no real understand of the machins is required, programmers like this will continue to exist :/15:01
prologicand it's bad for the software industry :/15:01
jkrLet's bash PHP15:02
treachWell, I don't particulary blame the schools/unis, but since students mostly get in contact with "high level" languages, pushed by people who thinks C is old and useless, they never understand what they are doing.15:02
prologicRedShift, you do that, I'll write one in python shall i :)15:02
prologicwe'll compare results!15:02
tilmanas if that's desirable15:02
tilmanwtf wtf wtf15:02
guaquatreach: most people don't really care about programming15:02
RedShiftprologic: mine will be faster...15:02
treachguaqua, you could expect CS students did, at least..15:03
* prologic leaves the discussion - point made15:03
RedShiftof all the scripting languages I find php to still be the fastest15:03
guaquatreach: and also, being able to write c doesn't make one a programmer. right practices make one a programmer...if one doesn't teach right practices to write [insert high-level language here] can one really expect the students to pick it up by theirselves?15:04
jkrYeah, but it's too easy15:04
RedShiftthis is personal experience though, I don't have hard numbers15:04
treachI say, force anyone who wishes to be a programmer to start with an 8080 and the data sheet with the opcodes..15:04
jkrEvery kid says "He, I'll make a cool guestbook/social network/..." and then15:04
jkrthe app. blows up15:04
RedShiftbut php has alot of potential though15:05
RedShiftI can easily match it with perl15:05
jkrI don't think PHP is really as insecure as people say, it's just that it's first choice for bad programmers :)15:05
RedShiftit's the same story as C15:05
RedShiftand I take the php developers point of view, alot (like 99%) are really the programmer's fault, and not php's15:06
prologicthat's the case with 99.9% of most bugs and security issues15:07
RedShiftit's just because the language is so easily accessible, alot of newcommers use it, like jkr pointed out15:07
jkrA good example for PHP programmer incompetence is the german studivz.de15:08
jkrSome weeks ago they got rooted and user passwords were stolen15:08
jkrGuess what they did?15:08
tilmankill themselves?15:08
RedShiftPython is 23 times slower than ANSI C15:09
RedShiftJava is 221 times slower than ANSI C15:09
RedShiftI am going to try that in php!15:09
jkrThey wrote a new EULA which forbids telling someone about security issues of studivz, or you'll have to pay at least 6000EUR15:09
prologicRedShift, please do and post it on my site :)15:09
RedShiftprologic: which compile flags did you use for your C?15:10
jkrRedShift: What about Perl? :)15:10
jkr-O100000 :)15:10
prologicRedShift, none15:10
prologicI in fact used tcc15:10
prologicno optimizations or compiler optimization flags15:11
RedShiftprologic.c:(.text+0x3a): undefined reference to `sqrt'15:11
RedShiftcollect2: ld returned 1 exit status15:11
prologicjust defaults for all 3 languages15:11
prologicgotta use -lm15:11
prologiclink tot eh math library15:11
prologicrustry huh :)15:11
prologicbtw, try it in PHP and post it there for me. I'd expect it to be as fast as C15:12
prologicbut perhaps almost as slow as python15:12
prologicmayb eon the 10-12 scale15:12
prologicalso jkr
RedShiftwhat's atoi?15:17
RedShift   N = atoi(argv[1]);15:17
tilmanman atoi15:17
prologicit converts a string to an integer15:18
prologicstandard function in the stdlib15:18
prologicor more precsiely converts the string pointed to by s that ends with a 0-byte :)15:19
jkrHehe, took me 121 seconds to write that in Perl ;)15:21
jkrNow I'm compiling Python to compare speed15:22
prologicyou sure you got the output right ? :)15:22
jkrHmm, wait15:22
prologicyou talking about the FizzBuzz program ?15:22
jkrn % 3 == 0 -> fuzz, n % 5 == 0 -> buzz, both -> fizzbuzz, $n otherwise, right? :)15:22
prologicplease post your code and a sample output :)15:23
prologicuse the GuestLogin (page) to login if you don't want to register15:23
RedShiftokay, done15:23
prologicRedShift, post the code and your results :)15:24
RedShifthold on15:24
jkrArgh, another reason why I dislike python - indentation errors after copying the source from you blog :)15:25
jkrYou don't see that in any other language15:25
prologicwell when you're a vip like myself, you'll appreciate indentation syntax vs. braces15:26
prologicI still enjoy C, but I don't like having to find those pssky ; and { } anymore15:27
RedShiftok that should be it15:27
jkrperl  0.01s user 0.00s system 23% cpu 0.064 total15:27
jkrpython  0.04s user 0.01s system 98% cpu 0.058 total15:28
prologicRedShift, cool thanks :)15:28
jkrInteresting :)15:28
prologicfrom first glance, it seems PHP is about 2-3 times slower than C15:28
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prologicRedShift, mind if I put that on my page - your code/results ?15:28
RedShiftprologic: I ran it three times consecutively and the results were about the same15:28
RedShiftprologic: no problem go right ahead15:28
jkrAh, you don't print the numbers15:29
RedShiftwhen I ran the C version consecutively, times were more consistant though15:29
RedShiftjkr: yes I did15:29
prologicjkr, actually I do15:29
prologicif you'll read my further comments15:29
prologicmy initial code was wrong :)15:29
prologicbad eyesight = bad reading15:29
jkrOk, then I got the wrong source :)15:29
namenlosprologic, but you also measured the jdk startup time...15:29
prologicRedShift, yeah this is because of load time of the interpreter15:29
prologicthe kernel just has to the load the ELF file and execute it15:30
prologicnothing else15:30
RedShiftstill I think it's a pretty good result15:30
RedShiftwhen you calculate the difference, did you take it from my C output?15:30
jkrMy output seems to be wrong - guess I'm a programmer that can't program too :(15:30
RedShiftbecause I most likely have a different processor ;-)15:30
prologicRedShift, actually I didn't15:30
prologicyou'll notice I have timing code inside the apps15:30
prologicbut I do measure the total runtime with the "time" command15:30
prologicand also the executed code - the loop inside the program15:30
prologicit took a while to get java to do it right - PITA :/15:31
RedShiftprologic: when you add my php version, just add a small comment by the side - contributed by OpenGate, the best hosting company in the world. <a href="">E-mail</a>15:36
jkrprologic: Print all numbers or only those where no fizz, buzz or fizzbuzz occurs?15:37
prologicRedShift, sure thing, you run opengate ?15:38
RedShiftlol, I was joking (but yes I run OpenGate)15:38
prologicjkr, you must print all numbers - read the problem carefully :)15:38
prologicseems your 121 seconds is gone out the window huh :)15:38
jkrI just wondered because your code prints the numbers multiple times :)15:39
prologicRedShift, cool I'll check it out, german based ?15:39
RedShiftprologic: Belgium15:39
jkrplus the fizz/buzz/fizzbuzz15:39
prologicI seriously doubt that15:39
RedShiftI don't really have a website though, it just has my logo and company coordinates15:39
guaquaprologic: took me 4 mins :<15:39
prologicetc and so on...15:40
jkrCheck for 9915:40
prologicguaqua, well done, most good programming can achieve <5mins15:40
prologic99 is Fizz!15:40
guaquaand 100 buzz15:40
prologicand therefore not printed15:40
jkrIt prints 99, 99, Fizz here15:40
prologicwell kick your computer15:40
prologicit doesn'd do that here!15:41
guaquaneither does it here15:41
jkrHmm, I guess the indentation is fucked up again15:41
RedShiftI am proud php kicked all the other languages butt ^_^15:41
RedShiftI use php for everything15:42
prologicguaqua, how long it take you and what langauge ? mind posting your source ?15:42
RedShiftand when I say everything... I mean *everything* ;-)15:42
jkrHehe, indentation was wrong indeed15:44
jkrSo my Perl output was right ;)15:45
RedShiftI wonder if I could speed it up some more15:45
jkrperl  0.01s user 0.00s system 98% cpu 0.014 total15:45
guaquaprologic: yours is nicer due to the lambdas15:45
prologicguaqua, python ?15:45
guaquawhich i know pretty much nothing abou15:45
guaquathat's python15:45
prologichow long ?15:45
prologicoh wait nevermind :)15:45
prologicyou already said15:45
guaquait took me 4 minutes to code :)15:46
jkrprologic: Want me to post the whole output or do you just believe me that it's correct? ;)15:46
RedShifthmmm I got a little bit performance gain15:46
prologicI'll believe the output15:46
prologicjust post your code and time it _really_ took you :)15:47
RedShiftremoved some if's and unecessairy variables15:47
prologicwe're all honest folks here15:47
prologictook me longer than guaqua iirc15:47
prologicRedShift, in the prime example ?15:47
RedShiftprologic: yes15:47
prologichmm show me ?15:47
jkrprologic: As I said, 121. I thought the script was broken because your script output confused me, but it was correct from the beginning15:47
RedShiftprologic: but it doesn't match your C code anymore15:47
RedShiftso it's not a fair comparison15:48
guaquai just looked at the time before and after i got it donw15:48
RedShiftI wrote it to be almost identical to your C version15:48
prologicRedShift, that's ok, send it this way I'll test your improvement and redo all the others to match15:48
prologicthen redo the comparisions :)15:48
RedShiftI don't think you can with C15:49
RedShiftbecause php has soft typing15:49
prologicjkr, so sticking with 121s huh ? what's your final code look like ?15:49
prologicRedShift, can I see ?15:49
RedShiftprologic: this is the "optimized" code15:49
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prologicthat looks like it can be done in C15:50
RedShiftprologic: I got the most gain from skipping the "if argc == 1" part15:50
tilmani don't know what you're doing, but i have a feeling that it's bogus15:51
treachif it's not asm, it's not "optimized" :P15:52
prologicRedShift, ahh, removnig that saftey check is probably okay15:52
prologicbut it doesn't really improve performance overall does it :)15:52
RedShiftactually it did15:52
prologicactually I'd like to do an asm one15:52
prologicusing fasm15:52
RedShiftit kept the "real" time to 0.06315:52
prologicRedShift, yeah but I mean in the overall scheme of things it doesn't amtter so much15:52
RedShiftotherwise it would fluctuate just above that15:52
RedShiftprologic: yes ofcourse15:52
prologichmm I notice something15:53
prologicyou don't time the code ?15:53
prologicwanna put that in and re-test15:53
prologicie: timing the actualy code inside the program15:53
RedShiftprologic: where do you have timing code in your C example?15:53
prologicfrom the start of the loop to the end15:53
prologicshould be there15:53
RedShiftwell just calculating the loop would be a false reading15:54
RedShiftbecause you don't take into account how much time it takes for the program to load15:54
prologicthat was in later versions15:54
prologicbut I haven't posted them yet :/15:54
prologicahh here we are15:55
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RedShiftnormally the times shouldn't differ too far from each other15:56
RedShiftit's just simple math15:56
hulahubhui community is larger now D15:56
jkrprologic: Postet it15:56
prologicRedShift, download the attachment15:57
RedShiftgunzip: lang-comparision.tar.gz: not in gzip format15:58
prologicjkr, thanks15:58
RedShiftprologic: you forgot to gzip it15:58
prologicoh wtf15:58
prologicuse bunzip15:58
RedShiftwhen I just run tar -xvf it extracts fine15:58
prologicsorry :/15:58
prologicaccidently used j :)15:58
jkrtime output differs from what I posted here before because I had to run it again in X to paste it into firefox :)15:58
prologicyeab because tar can detect gipz or bzip15:58
RedShiftphp is so fast it gives me a negative result ^_^16:01
prologicyou probably got the calcualtion slightly wrong :)16:02
prologiccurrent_ts - old_ts should always be >= 016:02
prologicno matter how quick your PC is :)16:02
jkrBug in PHP? *g*16:02
RedShiftok got it16:03
jkrHmm, I should have added on what CPU I got the perl time16:04
RedShiftprologic: can we drop the "echo" parts?16:04
RedShiftbecause this depends on what terminal you are using16:04
prologicpost ya results, I'm gonna redo a new page on this :)16:04
RedShiftif I run it with xterm at 80x25 I get 0.03, but when I run it fullscreen I get 0.3 :O16:04
prologicjkr, no that's ok, we're not concenred with performance on the FizzBuzz example - that's just purely an exereicse of programming compteence16:04
jkrOh oh :( Can you remove my name from the post?16:05
prologicRedShift, we can, but it's usefull to test that the program is correct16:05
prologicbut I usually > file.txt anyway16:05
prologicbut yes we can remove the print/echo16:05
prologicor rather comment it out16:05
RedShiftah ok I'll do the pipelining16:05
prologicso it can still be enabled and tested16:05
RedShiftpipe gives me 0.00516:05
jkrHe that's unfair! :) pipelining is faster than output with a slow framebuffer16:06
RedShiftprologic: do you have php installed on your computer?16:06
prologicI can do yes16:06
prologicsend me your latest code :)16:06
RedShiftone person should run them all16:06
RedShiftin the exact same fashion16:06
RedShiftok hold on16:06
prologicI don't really need mysql :)16:07
jkrHmm, with > /dev/null I get 0.014 instead of 0.01516:07
prologicyeah I will on my shiny new AMD Athlon 64 3800+ 2G of ram :)16:07
jkrBetter take an old computer so we can see the difference better16:07
prologicjkr, we'ce not really concerned with output speed - just factor that in16:07
jkrWell, I am :)16:08
prologicsorry threw out my P2's16:08
prologicyou're welcome to run them on old hardware if you have any16:08
jkrI have 400MHz OpenBSD machine in the cellar :)16:08
prologicahh much better16:08
prologicI personally don't see how testing on older hardware is beneficial16:09
prologicit just shows the difference between CPU and hardware optimizations over the years16:09
prologicthere would be a significant difference say b etween an 386 running these and say my AMD Athlong6416:09
treachSay it ain't so!16:10
prologicshutup :)16:10
treachok, until the next time then. ;)16:10
jkrprologic: If you have a CPU with 100000000GHz then every programm will execute in 0.000s and you don't see the difference anymore16:10
RedShiftprologic: got my new version?16:10
prologicjkr, would you mind implementing a perl version of the prime number tester like RedShift has in PHP ?16:11
tilmana bad algorithm can fuck anything up16:11
prologicbut please try to stick with the algorithm as closely as possible16:11
RedShiftit shouldn't be much of a change, perl is very similar to php16:11
treachtilman, scratch that "can" ;)16:11
prologicno perl quirks16:11
jkrprologic: Sure, where's the PHP source?16:11
tilmantreach: yeah16:11
RedShiftprologic: the script is written for php5 though, the php4 version of microtime behaves differently16:12
prologicbut I'm not really concerned with the algorithm either16:12
prologicjust the target language's implementaiton of various programming elements16:12
prologicand this is not exclusive :)16:13
prologicto do a proper study you'd have to compare languages that have similar features, and do more conclusive tests16:13
prologiccomparing ANSI C against Python and Java is also bad since C is not OO and doesn't have the overheads of OO16:13
prologicbut anyway :)16:13
prologicit's interesting enough16:13
RedShiftprologic: why didn't you use a boolean as return value for isPrime()?16:14
prologicRedShift, that's ok I'll install php516:14
prologicbecause C doesn't have booleans16:14
RedShiftit doesn't??16:14
tilmansure it does16:14
prologicI wrote the C version first16:14
prologicANSI C doesn't16:14
tilmanwhy the fuck do i even care16:14
tilmanSURE IT DOES16:14
prologicit uses 0 and non-zero16:14
treachand why is this out-of-hand OT discussion even here..?16:15
prologicbecause we're bored with crux's stability :)16:15
RedShiftANSI C doesn't have booleans... uuuugh16:15
tilmanyes it does16:15
tilmando your homework first16:15
tilmanbefore you talk crap16:15
treachwtf? A programming language that doesn't have booleans?16:16
RedShiftC99 has booleans16:16
RedShiftANSI doesn't16:16
prologictilman, I meant ot say that C doesn't have a boolean type16:16
prologicas Java and Python do16:16
prologicsure it has boolean operators16:16
prologicunless I"m mistaken16:16
RedShiftwikipedia disagrees with you tilman16:16
RedShiftand I'm talking ANSI C here16:16
guaquaANSI C != C9916:16
tilmanah, right16:17
tilmani'm talking of ISO C9916:17
RedShiftok but let's keep on topic here16:18
RedShiftwhat's the result on php kicking all other languages asses?16:18
tilmancool, some idiotic website in switzerland says c doesn't have bools16:19
prologicgimme a few mins :)16:19
tilmani guess it must not have them then!16:19
prologicplease tilman let'a agree to disagree :)16:20
prologicI meant C doesn't have a data type called boolean or such16:20
tilmanwe've already established "the truth"16:20
tilmanBUT IT DOES16:20
prologicusually char(1) or int is used16:20
tilmanfor crying out loud16:20
prologicbut it does have boolean operators16:20
prologicsince when and what version of C ?16:20
tilmanc99 FOR FUCKS SAKE16:20
prologicthen I'm not talking about C99 :/16:20
RedShifttilman: but we were talking about ANSI C16:20
tilmanprologic: you're talking about K&R?16:20
tilmanyay ancient times!16:21
prologicoh well16:21
treachANSI!=K&R iirc16:21
tilmantreach: correct16:21
prologicC99 is an extension of C8916:21
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RedShiftsuicide run!16:21
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RedShiftoh wait I didn't lose the discussion16:22
RedShiftjkr that's so not the original algorithm16:23
RedShiftyou need to replicate it as close as possible16:23
prologicIn the C programming language, there is no Boolean type provided in the C89 (but there is one in C99)16:23
prologicsoryr tilman ;/16:23
RedShiftprologic: he left16:24
jkrThe algorithm is the same, I just changed the way the loop runs16:24
prologicjkr, who said you could use foreach and shift and unless ? :)16:24
RedShiftmeh I don't think this is an equal measurement if jkr's code is used16:25
jkrYeah, they will save the algo HOURS of time :)16:25
prologicno but it might ms :)16:25
RedShiftjkr: true, but it's for the sake of comparison16:25
prologicRedShift, I guess I'll quickly learn perl and do it16:25
RedShifteveryone will notice the perl code is alot different from the other examples16:26
jkrAll I changed is the way the CLI arguments are taken, and I put the loop head at the end of the loop instead of the beginning16:26
RedShiftjkr: the point is that we use another function that is created upon runtime, so that has to be taken into account to16:26
jkrOh, ok, wait a sec16:27
RedShiftbuilt-in functions always perform better than those created upon runtime (see the isPrime() function)16:27
RedShiftit should be as identical as possible16:27
prologicand you can't change the loop structure16:27
prologicI know for a fact that cetrain loop structure are better than others16:27
RedShifteither you keep the same algorithmes, or you really optimize very single bit to get the best out of the used language16:28
jkrHmm, I just don't like loop heads at the top for one-line-loop-bodies, but if you think it matters I can change it ;)16:28
jkrIt's just the syntax16:28
RedShiftyeah looks good now16:29
RedShiftperl is a weird language :-S16:29
prologicthanks jkr16:29
prologicit is indeed16:29
jkrRedShift: That's what I love about Perl :)16:29
jkrprologic: Is it ok now or do you want me to change the loops back?16:29
RedShiftjkr: the fact that other people can't read your code? ^_^16:29
prologicRedShift, jkr: if we're not done, let's more to an ot channel :)16:29
jkrRedShift: Yup, so noone can see (easily) that I'm a incompetent programmer :)16:30
RedShiftmy code is final, it's nearly identical to your C code16:30
jkrWhat about the microtime code? I think there's a good benchmark Perl module that I could put in there to do the same thing16:31
RedShiftjkr: if perl has a microtime() function you should use that16:32
RedShiftif you load a perl module it's to perl's disadvantage because it has to take the time to load extra code which the others don't have to16:32
RedShiftit is vital that it is as close to the C example as possible for exact comparison16:33
jkrHmm, ok.16:33
jkrRedShift: Do you mean times()?16:35
RedShiftjkr: well the php microtime() returns the current time in microseconds, I don't know if perl has a similar function16:35
jkrNo, not as builtin function16:35
RedShiftmaybe some other time measurement?16:36
jkrAt least I can't find it in perlfunc right now16:36
RedShiftjkr: what about utime16:36
RedShiftor just regular time()16:36
prologicjkr, join #lang-comparision16:36
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space_ninjaIs crux a slimmed version of slackware?17:33
jjpkYou could say so.17:34
treachand then again, you couldn't. :)17:34
treachCrux has nothing to do with slack.17:34
jjpkNot based on slackware, but it has several similarities but it still is different.17:34
jjpkCrux is crux. ;)17:34
space_ninjamaybe I should try it17:34
treachIt's more like bsd than anything else IMO.17:34
space_ninjabut when I work with crux, do I learn crux or do I learn linux?17:35
space_ninjaI mean17:35
space_ninjahehe gnu/linux, everyone is complaining :p17:36
treachwell, here nobody cares.17:36
treachpeople who persists tend to be considered annoying.17:36
jaegerbest thing to do is try it and see what you think17:37
space_ninjayeah, but my main issues is the the kernel and the loading of modules17:38
treachthat's no problem.17:38
space_ninjawhich version do you guys use as stable?17:38
treachthe one you install.17:38
treachthe kernel is your responsibility.17:38
prologic2.2 is current stable17:39
treachyes yes.17:39
prologictry to use jaeger's latest 2.2 cd17:39 files/17:39
space_ninja2.2 isn't that a bit old? are you into super safty? :)17:39
jaegercrux 2.2, not kernel17:40
prologicjaeger, what's your url ? :)17:40
jaegerthe kernel you use is up to you but if you want something earlier than 2.6 you'll have to do some work17:40
jaegerthat's the one17:40
treachwell, isn't 2.3 almost out? ;)17:41
prologicnot sure what's holding it up17:41
treachbtw, jaeger what happened to your modified iso?17:41
space_ninjaI'm downloading this one17:41
jaegertreach: it's still there17:41
jaegertreach: I just haven't made a new one recently because I've been converting the 2.3 one to initramfs17:42
treachok, I thought 2.3 would be initramfs.17:42
jaegerwell, theoretically we could switch it, the initramfs iso works; no one but me has tested it, as far as I know17:42
treachok, I see.17:43
jaegerif you want to try it, feel free. (no netinst update yet)17:43
space_ninjaI think this is this dist is the one, I'm hoping so17:44
treachok, I'll give it a shot in a qemu17:44
jaegertreach: please do report any bugs you see17:45
space_ninjaI'm looking for a minimalistic "core" that I can use for my laptop which is going to be totally free from X :)17:45
treachok. I should go to sleep soonish, but I'll have a look tomorrow.17:45
jaegerok :) thanks17:45
space_ninjamc, irssi mp3blaster and that kind  of stuff :)17:45
jaegerspace_ninja: easily accomplished. and if you don't find something in the ports database (, make a port of it :)17:46
treachI don't think you find a more minimal core, unless you go for DSL or something.17:47
prologicspace_ninja, most of what you'll need is in contrib so be sure to enable it when you've done your install :)17:47
space_ninjaok cool17:48
space_ninjaI'm already beginning to like this, but I can't sell the bearfur until i've killed one17:48
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treach"sälj inte skinnet förrens björnen är skjuten"17:49
treach"don't sell the fur until the bear is shot"17:49
space_ninjanågot sånt :)17:49
treachugh, utf17:50
prologicyeah ugg wtf17:50
treachbad boy.17:50
space_ninjaklaga inte :)17:50
space_ninjajag har försökt och försökt att ändra den17:50
space_ninjashould it be utf-8?17:50
prologicI must not have fonts for your character set :)17:50
prologic¶ <-- well I have no idea what character that is in any language!17:51
space_ninjait's something with this irc client17:51
treachprologic, PI17:51
space_ninjahehe that's some kind of sign when you type stuff :p17:51
prologicyes well obviously in maths17:51
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prologicyour client most likely doens't support utf17:52
treachWell, you did claim you didn't know it. :)17:52
prologicwell I did say language17:52
* RedShift zzz17:52
prologicand yeah ok mayhs ia a kind of a lanague17:52
prologicbut let's not get into an argument ok :)17:52
prologicnight RedShift17:52
space_ninjaand fur stuff :)17:52
space_ninjahow about now, äåö?17:54
prologicäåö <_ I guess so17:54
treachHelt rätt prologic :)17:54
treach(Quite right)17:55
prologicwell please :) I don't know whatever language you're writing in17:55
space_ninjaye, but even if you typed the "wrong" stuff I would get the normal characters17:55
prologicso I'll just go have brekafast now17:55
prologicI copied/pasted17:55
treachprologic, you mean you don't know the language of glory and kings? :P17:55
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prologicno unfortuantely :/17:56
jkrGerman? :D17:56
prologicsomething my school never taught me :/17:56
prologicdamn ye all to hell!17:56
prologicspace_ninja, less chatting more typing at your install console :)17:56
treachjkr, no, swedish. :) German was created to be screamed from the top of your loungs on some exercise-field. :P17:56
space_ninjahehe, 85%17:57
prologicand englihs was creatd to confuse the world17:57
prologicgawd I need a new keyboard17:57
prologicpoor excuse :) yo ushould have a 100Mbps line :)17:57
space_ninja160 kbps17:57
treachprologic, well, if the damned brits hadn't learned how to build boats things would have been so much better.17:57
jkrEveryone should :)17:57
space_ninjaI got 817:57
space_ninjaär krux en svensk dist?17:59
space_ninjaI mean17:59
treachno, but it's creator was.17:59
jkrHehe, even I understood that :D17:59
space_ninjais the founder swedish?18:00
treachs was/is.18:00
treachHe ain't dead yet afaik. :)18:00
treachthat's why you found the iso on fukt.bth.se18:01
jkrBetter find it on, is damn slow18:01
treachdepends on where you are, unless things have changed.18:01
jkrsweden is not that far away18:02
treachI remember getting isos from there at quite decent speeds :)18:02
jkrI have a 6MBit line and downloading from codemonkey uses the whole bandwidth :)18:02
jkrHmm, I'm talking shit :)18:03
jkrI downloaded the ISO from my server with 100MBit and it used the whole bandwidth18:03
jkrTook about 20 seconds18:03
treachhm, they have changed. it's bsnet now.18:04
treachI guess that's why it's slow. :(18:04
treachbth is located on SUNET.18:04
treachbsnet is some degraded student network, iirc.18:05
space_ninjais the pacakges compiled or source?18:06
treachhmm.. may I recomend reading some docs?18:06
space_ninjaI saw it now18:07
space_ninjabut the crux port browser looked like compiled, I got worried :)18:07
treachDon't miss the FAQ.18:07
treachA lot of people do, and thus asks a lot of redundant questions18:07
treachlike ;)18:08
rehabdolland then people get pissed :)18:09
treachj^2 !18:09
treachare you still responsible for the faq?18:09
rehabdolli've said it before, the crux-logo should be one giant hand giving you the finger :)18:10
space_ninja"Packages on the official CRUX ISO are compiled with -march=i686"18:11
treachit's not people asking questions that is annoying, it's when they refuse to read docs problems arise.18:11
treachspace_ninja, yeah?18:11
space_ninjathat's what worried me18:11
space_ninjabut it's only the core18:11
space_ninjaI think18:12
guaquayou can recompile it all if you wish18:12
treachwhy does it worry you?18:12
treachguaqua, only if he has something that supports i686 :)18:12
guaquathat too :)18:12
space_ninjaI mean, I thought everything was compiled. That's why I asked :)18:12
treachwell, the base packages get kind of tricky to install otherwise.18:12
* treach tries to imagine a CPU that excutes C source..18:13
jkrEasy, all you need is a gcc-bios :)18:13
treachsome project..18:14
jkrStart a LinuxBIOS-Fork :)18:14
treachsounds like a gentoo project to me.18:14
treach"Compile your system on the fly at boot"18:15
guaquatakes only a few days18:15
jkrI think you need a lot of ROM then :)18:15
jkrAnd RAM18:15
jkrAnd a huge cache18:16
jkrSounds more like Microsoft to me18:16
jkrPay twice, once for the OS, once for the new hardware you need to run it18:16
jkrHmm, I could use a pizza hawaii now18:17
* jkr is hungry18:17
treachAnd another time for the apps you'll need to upgrade, and *another* time for the hardware you need to run your apps and not just the OS :/18:17
treachseriously, 2GB for a desktop/laptop is nothing short of ridicolus.18:18
treachI can fucking compile wine in a tempfs on 1GB.18:19
jkrI'm running CRUX on a 1.8GHZ + 512M RAM, and it's running more smooth than any 2G-RAM-Windows-Desktop I've ever seen18:19
treachthat's vista idling iirc.18:19
treachyeah, I rarely use more than like 300MB otherwise18:20
treachbut compiling on a tempfs is cool. :)18:20
rehabdoll i dont think i18:20
rehabdoll..i've ever used more than 10% of my ram :)18:20
jkrEven my 700MHz server with 256M RAM runs smoother than a current windows pc18:21
treachagreed. I've actually clocked down this 1.8 GHz to 700MHz, and I couldn't tell the difference.18:21
treachexcept when building stuff obviously.18:22
treachbarton 2500.18:22
jkrWhy would did you clock it down?18:22
jkrSave energy?18:22
treachyeah, and it's cooler == less noise.18:22
jkrHmm, could try that too18:22
prologictreach, you bagging my 2G desktop ? :)18:23
treachI don't need it to run at full blast, so why should I?18:23
treachprologic, not per se.18:23
prologicoh good :)18:23
prologiccause I was gonna say18:23
treachI just think it's bizarr that stuff "need" it18:23
rehabdollmy server-mb died last week.. had to replace the semi-cool xp1700 cpu with a p4 3.6ghz18:23
prologicI like my new desktop18:23
prologicmy old one got fired ;/18:23
rehabdollthat fucker is NOT cool18:23
prologictreach, yeah just try vista18:23
treachrehabdoll, heh, indeed not. :P18:24
treachand people keep posting that "amd is hot" crap.18:24
prologicI've heard true accounts from people here in AU that have vista and it crasehs horribly and freeze if it doesn't have >2G of ram18:24
rehabdollim running a p4 3.06 and 6 hd's in my closet :D18:24
rehabdollthe airtemp in there is 37.4C right now :p18:24
treacha well ventilated closet I hope.18:24
rehabdollno :)18:25
prologicmy CPU is a cool 30C atm18:25
treachprologic, it's just my opinion, but > 1GB RAM for the OS itself is bizarr.18:26
treachthe guy who came up with that should be flogged and then shot.18:26
jkrWhere can I read the temp from?18:26
prologicRAm is cheap - why not :)18:26
treachbecause it's stupid.18:26
prologicjkr, install lm_sensors18:26
rehabdollim running a core2duo on my desktop, really nice.. speedstep kicks ass18:26
jkrprologic: Does that require special hardware?18:27
prologictreach, I only have 2G on this desktop because I can basically18:27
prologicI had no real reason to get an extra G of ram18:27
prologicjkr, yeah, your mothoerboard must have hw monitoring sensors on it18:27
prologicbut install ml_sensors18:27
prologicand run sensor-detect18:27
prologicand it'll probe your hardware for anything18:27
rehabdollE6300.. runs at 1.6ghz and dynamically changes up to 1.83ghz on demand for each core18:27
treachyeah, but why does the low price on ram give any kind of dev the "right" to waste it for you?18:27
prologicI have 3 temp sensors and one fan one18:27
treachyou could do a lot of stuff with that ram they wasted for you because "it's cheap".18:28
prologicwho said anything about any dev wasting my ram ?18:28
prologicnormally my desktop has only used about 200M  :)18:28
prologicI have 1800M free!18:28
treachmine uses something like 64..18:28
prologicI actually should load /tmp in a ramfs18:29
prologicI haven't done that with this install yet18:29
treachbut I'm not speaking of your system specifically.18:29
prologichigher res and my vip needs require mt to waste more ram ;?18:29
prologicI'm sure if I ran X at 1024x768 like most people do, with normal fonts and no virtual res I'd probably only use 64M of ram18:30
treachI'm talking about that just because something "is cheap" doesn't give the developer any inherent "right" to waste it.18:30
prologicof course not18:30
prologicI agree18:30
prologicand it's developers like windows that are to blame for that18:30
prologictheir inherent ties with intel to keep building newer and faster hardware and making windows reliant on the new hardware18:30
prologicand almost incompatiable with old hardware18:31
prologicforcing users to upgrade if they want the newer windows18:31
treachI don't really buy that.18:31
guaquanot anymore like that18:31
treachintel would probably profit as much from selling older designs as having to create newer ones.18:31
prologicwelll it's just speculation/remour18:31
guaquajust that there's no need to make windows code better18:31
prologicbut Microsoft/Intel do have ties18:31
treachyes, but I actually don't think intel is that reliant on MS.18:32
prologicno true18:32
prologicprobably the other way around18:32
treachI used to think so, but if you look at it, it doesn't really hold water.18:32
prologicguaqua, and yeah, most likely because most users don't own/keep older hwardware18:32
prologicusers tend to like upgrading, buying newer things anyway18:32
prologicso there's no business reason for MS to make their code run on 486's anymore18:33
guaquaand just because it doesn't really matter. the current market model and moore's law say there's no need...18:33
treachwell. I doubt they could even if they wanted..18:33
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treachwindows is just a too big plate of spaghetti.18:33
prologicand true18:33
prologicit would be hard to get say XP working on a 386 now18:33
prologiceven though I have heard of some crazy idiots doing so18:34
prologicwas a recent /. articule18:34
onestepI ran xp on pentium-mmx, that's cruel (:18:34
treachwell, the results weren't brilliant..18:34
onestepbtw, hello everybody! :)18:34
treachHi onestep18:34
nipuLonestep: so did i, 166mhz, 40mb ram18:34
guaquathe horror18:34
treachI used to run w2k on a 233mmx with 128MB ram.18:34
prologicI've seen what XP is like on a P1 of those specs18:35
prologicnot nice18:35
onestepnipuL, in my case that was 128 MB of RAM18:35
guaquai wonder what kde4 requirements will be 8)18:35
nipuLyou need 64mb to install it though18:35
treachguaqua, I don't think it will need that much.18:35
onestepguaqua, I was'n ever able to build Qt... :)18:35
guaquaonestep: :D18:35
onestepso XFCE was my only choice :)18:35
treachtoo little ram, I guess.18:35
onesteptill this time I love GTK with all my heart :)18:36
treachqt is a hog to build, but the apps is really efficient18:36
guaquathere have been rumors about qt4 being lighter than qt318:36
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nipuL*box seems like a better choice for such alow end machine18:36
nipuLi find xfce to be too slow for my liking aswell18:36
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onesteptreach, Qt is a monster imho. same is for KDE :)18:36
treachnot really.18:37
nipuLopenbox+rox :)18:37
treachlook at opera for instance18:37
guaquain my experience kde runs faster and is more responsive than gnome18:37
treachit's qt, and it's quite light18:37
jkrfluxbox :)18:37
guaquabut that's just my subjective opinion18:37
treachI agree.18:37
treachkde on < 256MB isn't all that fun, but it works.18:38
treachgnome otoh..18:38
onestepguaqua, no, I have gnome working 1.5 times faster than KDE18:38
nipuLthe more i used kde the slower it got18:38
guaquaonestep: 1.5 :D how is that measured?18:38
nipuLwith a stopwatch18:38
treachguaqua, on a scale with one step.. ;)18:38
onesteptreach, one and a half... ;)18:39
guaquaand off course, if you pronounce kay-dee-ee...then pronounce gnome18:39
guaquait might be 1.5 :D18:39
treachthe so called onestep scale with one and a half step. :D18:39
onesteptreach, :)18:39
guaqua1.5 [onestep]18:39
treachsounds like something terry pratchett came up with. :P18:39
* guaqua is thinking of installing crux if he ever gets one of those openmoko phones18:40
onestepguaqua, I want to install CRUX to my Moto A120018:41
jkrGoing to bed, good night at all18:41
guaquanighty, jkr18:41
onestepbut at the time I'm only able to install debian there... :(18:41
guaquacrux for mobiles18:41
onestepjkr, g'nite ;)18:41
onestepI've tried Scite today. it's very cute :)18:46
* treach watches editor war 18:47
* prologic sits back18:48
onestepokay, VIM is cute too :)18:48
treach cute -> :P18:48
* onestep says NO WAR!18:48
onesteptreach, le glamour :))18:49
onesteps ROX at the ri18:49
onestepdamn :(18:49
treachaye, I wonder how long I can stand it.18:49
onestepis it ROX at the right side?18:49
treachit's not ROX.18:49
prologicjust the bbpager ?18:49
treachno, I'm not using bbpager18:50
guaquathat was a quick war18:50
nipuLtreach: what file manager is that?18:50
onestepmaybe Thunar?18:51
guaquasounds like tuna18:51
treachsome odd one I found, it's called "pcmanfm"18:51
guaquaand i don't like tuna18:51
guaquaso i must not like thunar either18:51
treachthunar is nice, but it depends on xfce.18:51
nipuLit does look looks very thunarish18:51
onestepxfce is nice too ;)18:51
guaquait's been like 3 years since i used xfce18:52
prologicxfce is really nice18:52
prologicI'm using it atm18:52
treachAnd since I neither use xfce nor particulary like it, I figured I'd find something simpler18:52
guaquakonqueror ftw!18:52
nipuLkonqueror reminds me of a proverb about a basket and some eggs18:53
guaquaand it works18:53
treachwell, konqueror doesn't really do anything.18:53
treachit's just a frame18:53
onesteptreach, konqueror is a very good browser18:53
guaquait actually is, too :)18:54
treachno. the khtml ioslave is.18:54
onestepbut as file manager... it's dumb :)18:54
treachit's not worth the time it takes building it, IMO.18:54
guaquais khtml a kioslave?18:54
treachI think so, I could be wrong on that point.18:55
treachbut anyway, konqi does *not* render webpages18:55
onestepprologic, omg, the fonts are... BIG!18:55
nipuLi'd post a ss, but i'm at work and using gnome18:56
guaquait's not a kioslave, but rather an engine18:56
treachwell, it's a kpart.18:56
prologiconestep, welcome to my world18:56
guaquaprologic: can you set up windows in a way you can use it well?18:56
prologicerr wtf ? windows ?18:56
guaqualike the windows operating system :D18:57
prologicno I can't18:57
prologicI don't even think it's possible18:57
prologicsince windows doesn't support virtual resolutions afaik18:57
onestepguaqua, you must say Windows® ;)18:57
prologicthe only option for using windows for me is to 1) buy ZoomText @ $900 per liecense18:57
prologicor 2) pirate it18:57
prologicotherwise Windows® <insert version here> is useless to me18:58
onestepnipuL, what's bad in using gnome? :)18:59
prologicI used to get bad RSI in my right wrist (the mouse wrist) from using Windows systems18:59
prologicdon't anymore18:59
nipuLit's too slow18:59
treachonestep, what's good in using gnome?18:59
onestepI'm using gnome with gtk-engines-ubuntulooks and ubuntu-icon-theme + ubuntu-gtk-theme... :)18:59
treachwhat does gnome *really* do with all the resources it takes?18:59
guaquaprologic: :D, i have to start using this as an argument for open source too18:59
guaquatreach: it keeps evil registry19:00
nipuLand well gnome desktops are boring19:00
prologicalso windows is a terrible OS for sysadmin/netadmin people that just like to type at nice contrast looking terminals :)19:00
guaquaclickety click click19:01
treachnipuL, it wasn't more boring than mine. :P19:01
nipuLblackbox is never boring19:01
prologicI have objective evidence that my programming productivity went up 3x by switching to a LInux desktop back in my 2nd year of uni19:01
nipuLit's an action packed wm with excitement around every corner19:01
treachheh, wouldn't that be openbox? ;)19:02
nipuLeven better19:02
guaqua"excitement around every corner" == segfaults often? ;)19:02
treachyou never know when it's going to freeze on you..19:02
nipuLunlike gnome and kde, where you do know19:02
treachok, tilman says OB is fixed now, but that fix isn't in any release yet.19:02
guaquakde has crashed for me twice19:03
nipuLif openbox segfaults, you know you better check your hardware19:03
treachSo I'll keep bashing it a while yet.19:03
guaquaand the second time was because of beryl19:03
treachnipuL, it doesn't segfault, it freezes.19:03
rehabdoll fear my flashy desktop!19:03
guaquaokay, it's screenshot time19:03
treachapparently you can undo it with some sysrq magic, but I refuse to play that kind of games.19:04
prologicfuck that's boring :)19:04
guaquawhat was the imagemagick screenshot?19:04
guaquacan't remember19:04
prologicyeah what _can_o you do if X or your wm frreze up your keyboard/mouse input ?19:04
prologicguaqua, scrot19:04
nipuLopenbox hasn't crashed on me recently, there was a bug in 3.3 iirc though19:04
guaquaprologic: nope, doesn't work19:05
prologicinstall scrot19:05
prologicprt-get depinst scrot19:05
rehabdollfluxbox has never crashed on me19:05
prologicscrot -d 5 ss.jpg19:05
treachnipuL, has happened to me numerous times in 3.3.119:05
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prologicI swear his QoS scripts in his crux firewall and/or his iptables rules screw his connection over19:06
prologicI've never seen such an unstable DSL link19:06
nipuLmines been real unstable too recently19:06
nipuLand i haven't touched my qos rules in months19:07
prologicrock solid here19:07
prologicI just had weeks and weeks of problems with upstream transparent proxies on my main link19:07
treachprologic, why wouldn't it surprise me if your right about his qos scripts? :P19:07
prologicprobably because I am :)19:07
prologicand I know his work personally19:07
treachdon't we all?19:08
prologicyeah :)19:08
nipuLi probably should upgrade the gateway, still running obsd 3.819:08
prologicleast he puts the effort in to learn though19:08
prologicgotta give him that19:08
guaquamy generic kde :/19:09
treachso terrible I just can't stop myself from looking. :o19:09
guaquaart lebedev design desktop background, with little msn messengerish people in it ;)19:10
prologictreach, you know... you're the only irc user I know that uses irc acronymous that even I have never seen :)19:10
prologicor used19:10
prologicnvm :)19:10
treachlike what?19:11
prologiciih I got19:11
prologicbut pinko ?19:11
prologicI had to look up iih :)19:11
prologiciih = if it helps19:11
treachthat was 100% not intetional..19:11
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prologicnot sure about pinko though19:11
nipuLthis is my wallpaper at home
treachiih was meant like some sort of phonetic word.19:12
treachlike screaming.19:12
treachsorry for the confusion :P19:12
prologichmm nice ningo19:12
prologicnipuL, nice19:12
treachguaqua, no. Interjection is like "OW!" or "STOP!"19:12
guaquatreach: exactly19:13
nipuLi showed it to my wife and then had to explain what composite photos were19:13
nipuLyet she's the one who took a phototgraphy class19:13
treachguaqua, sorry, it has another, proper name, but I've forgotten it.19:13
treachit's in the same category as "bang!" and "splat!"19:13
prologicoh gawd, has anyone seen this ?
treachnipuL, congrats, didn't know you had settled down. ;)19:15
guaquaand that's a really crappy job at it19:15
prologicyeah indeed congrads19:15
guaquai wonder why the fonts are always so distorted19:15
rehabdolllol, why would anyone want their desktop to look like xp?19:15
nipuLwe're not actually officially married yet19:15
prologicI have nfi19:15
prologichow so ?19:16
treachprologic, there used to be that XPDE project as well..19:16
prologicyeah still is isn't there ?19:16
prologicor is it rather dead now19:16
prologicI actually got xpde working once on crux 2.119:17
prologicwas bored :)19:17
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treachyeah, there is something similar for kde as well.19:18
prologicnipuL, just engaged atm ?19:18
treachI thought about putting it on weavers kde and tell her that kde had broken so I had to put windows back on. ;)19:19
treach(she would probably have killed me though. :P )19:19
* bismark is away: jugando wow19:19
guaquanight guys19:21
treachguaqua, the word I was looking for was onomatopoetic.19:22
treachso, essentially, you were correct, and I was confused. :)19:24
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