IRC Logs for #crux Monday, 2007-08-27

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pitillogood morning00:39
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tilmanomg SiFuh07:37
SiFuhrxi_: awake?07:37
SiFuhwhat tilman sifuh is not dead07:37
SiFuhoh if i knew you guys missed me i wouldn't have vanished into the darkness07:38
SiFuhtilman: whats happened to Han07:38
tilmanhe left some months ago07:38
SiFuhany reasons?07:39
mike_k* he left IRC some month ago07:39
tilmanhe was annoyed by the fact that the contrib repository wasn't open to anarchy07:39
tilmanSiFuh: surrounder might know whether there's more reasons07:39
SiFuhi was banned and kicked  from OpenBSD because Han thought I was bit of a dickweed07:40
SiFuh:-/ so i backed away from irc for almost year now  i guess.07:40
tilman#crux is nice and cozy these days :07:40
SiFuhi hope so07:40
SiFuhi installed OpenBSD 4.1 the other month. Much to my horror I found that theo included some of my pcmcia network drivers. Didn't even edit the code :-P07:42
tilmanhehe, shocking :D07:43
SiFuhdoes officially mean i am a geek?07:43
thrice`SiFuh: yes ;)07:59
thrice`I think han left because he simply did not want to make his email address in Pkgfiles comply to the standard...perhaps there was really more than that08:00
SiFuhI liked Han I just didn't like the way he classed me.08:02
SiFuhfiled me... and put me on the shelf behind the other annoyances.08:03
thrice`yeah, he had an interesting way of "teaching"08:04
SiFuh"Programming controls your computer - not your personality" -- SiFuh08:04
SiFuhwhen vkd and I let loose on the channel and go off topic  which is common.08:06
SiFuhHan use to get annoyed08:06
SiFuhwhere is vkd?? he vhanged his name i heard.08:06
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aonhi SiFuh08:19
morlenxusSiFuh: Hey man! :)08:22
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mike_kthrice`: regarding email format... part of the problem was in the way that 'standard' was invented08:38
thrice`mike_k: ah; that always confused me, but I never wanted to bring it up :)08:38
thrice`it's a shame, he had some decent ports too, and seemed to be good at scripting08:39
mike_kI never wanted to bring it up either08:40
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treachjjpk: btw,
jaegerSiFuh: he banned me from #openbsd for a while for not agreeing with him on something :P08:53
RyoS14:40:51 <@tilman> #crux is nice and cozy these days <- what? :D08:54
treachRyoS: Laaaarge sheets of comfortable silence. :p08:57
RyoSoh, right :P08:57
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jjpktreach: are you referring to Option "LinearAlloc" "6144"?09:24
tilmanRyoS: you disagree?09:40
RyoShehe :P09:40
RyoSnah i wouldnt dare09:40
tilmanmike_k: i cannot remember him saying "let's talk about this email standard"09:41
tilmanso the problem was 100% that he failed to communicate properly09:41
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aoniirc he didn't comment it until he told someone to fuck themselves09:44
aonor something like that09:44
tilmanyeah :D09:44
tilmani'm backwards-searching the #crux.log for "FUCK"09:45
mike_ktilman: hmm, I've got that impression/reason from a private conversation.09:45
tilmanmike_k: oh, okay09:45
mike_ktilman: you can guess, it was not the only reason.09:46
tilmanhehe, found it09:47
thrice`I dislike how he's changed his ports, too, to g'zipping footprints, etc.09:50
aon@seen Han09:52
clbaon: Han was last seen in #crux 29 weeks, 6 days, 21 hours, 11 minutes, and 51 seconds ago: <Han> And since it's merely a comment I take the liberty to keep it like I want.09:52
aoni think it was in a mail to viper or something09:53
tilmanoh, true09:53
aon#crux.log:00:00 < treach> yeah, like "JESUS CHRIST ON A FUCKING BICYCLE, JUST LEAVE ME THE FUCK ALONE!!!!"09:53
tilmanwhat i had in mind was when he told prologic off09:53
tilmanaon: no military today? ;)09:54
aonno, "personal holiday"09:54
aonthere's one each month09:54
tilmanso technically it's vacation?09:54
aonso that you have a day when offices are open etc. and you can take care of your business09:54
tilmanwhy don't they call it vacation then? ;)09:55
aonit should be so that we leave on saturday and go back on monday night09:55
aonbut because of the oath/assurance it's fri-mon now09:55
aonvacation/holiday, whatever :)09:57
tilmanokay, i thought it was specifically holiday as in christmas09:58
aonlast month it was also fri-mon since it's also possible when the previous weekend is spent in service09:58
aonyeha, perhaps vacation is better09:59
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aonand if you server 12 months you get 6 extra personal vacation days you can spend whenever10:00
aonthe rest are spent by the whole unit simultaneously10:00
jjpkVacations that are not called vacations, nice.10:00
jjpkthrice`: Han probably took the liberty because he was not constrained by crux guidelines.10:03
tilmanshould make a poll and ask people how badly they want that feature10:04
jjpkgzipping .footprints is weird in my opinion.10:04
tilmanpersonally i think it sucks to patch software just so it works better with one or two ports10:04
tilman(tetex and openoffice)10:04
jjpkI remember Han saying tetex, but still.10:04
namenlosbtw on the tetex page the author says, that he won't create new packages...10:07
namenlosif i understood it correctly...10:07
tilmannamenlos: yeah, we're aware of that issue10:08
tilmani'm not sure, but someone brought it up10:08
namenlosk, only wanted to mention it...10:08
tilmantreach maybe10:08
tilmanapparently "texlive" or so is the next best thing10:08
tilmanbut it's huge10:08
namenlostilman: i will try this one out..10:09
namenlostilman: but since i am new to tetex i will have to experiment with my ports i am going to create...10:10
tilmannamenlos: mmh? that's the same that we have in opt today, no?10:10
jjpkShould be.10:10
namenlostilman: i don't think so.10:10
namenlostilman: errr - honestly i don't know.10:10
tilmani'm looking at the urls of opt/tetex/Pkgfile10:11
tilmanlooks similar to what you linked :D10:11
namenlosok. so no experiments.10:11
tilmannamenlos: feel free to experiment with tetex replacements10:12
tilmanresp research on what packages are available etc10:12
tilmansooner or later we will have to switch i think10:12
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ciolit's normal that pkgutils does not create /var/lib/pkg/db ?11:25
tilmanciol: the setup script creates it11:26
ciolI don't see a setup script11:27
tilmani mean crux' setup script. the one you use to install crux11:28
tilmanciol: anyway, you can just mkdir /var/lib/pkg and touch /var/lib/pkg/db :)11:29
ciolI know11:29
ciolI just wanted to know if I miss something11:29
tilmanoh, okay11:29
ciolwhy db it's not a directory? A file is effective enough?11:31
ciolok :o)11:31
treachjjpk: that link was since we were discussing the slowness of mplayer/sdl11:39
treachtilman: "maybe"?11:39
treachdid I say something that could provoke a "maybe"..? *looks in logs*11:41
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tilmantreach: i wasn't addressing you :P11:52
tilmansorry for teh confusion11:52
treachah, k11:53
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jjpkirc network fart?14:23
tilmanfreenode ftl today14:24
tilmaninterested read14:36
treachno wonder freenode is free, it keeps splitting, even though it's not run by Einstein, afaik. :>14:37
RedShiftfreenode isn't `free' at all14:38
RedShiftIIRC there are things that aren't allowed to be discussed on freenode14:38
ciolwhat does IIRC mean?14:38
treachthat you should get some dictionary for acronyms. :P14:38
treachwrt to free, if a tree falls in the forest, blah, blah, etc, etc.14:40
RedShiftciol: If I Recall Correctly14:40
ciolthx I thought it was 'In IRC' o_O14:41
thrice`I did too when I first read it awhile back :)14:41
tilmani often wondered what the hell 'ttyl' meant14:42
tilmani always thought it was 'teletype something'14:42
tilman(yeah, i was too lazy to look it up for a long time :P14:43
RedShifttilman: teletypewriter?14:43
tilmanerr, yes14:43
treachhehe ttyl on tty1 :p14:45
tilmanyeah ;>14:45
treachdepending on your font, that might even look identical. :P14:45
treachsome of those acronyms are just pure gold, like when I tried to imitate some screaming with "iih", and romster asked me what I meant with "if it helps". ;D14:47
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treachI would never have know about that one unless he had told me :>14:48
RedShiftoh damn14:49
RedShiftI had a great vid of that14:49
RedShiftabout acronyms14:49
RedShiftsomebody sent it to me yesterday on irc14:49
RedShiftmaybe I can find it back in my logs14:49
tilman/lastlog youtube14:50
RedShiftgot it!14:50
RedShiftcat & grep ftw14:50
tilmanuseless use of cat ftw14:50
RedShifttilman: well better use it, otherwise waste of unused CPU cycles14:51
RedShiftthe faster computers get, the more idle they sit14:54
prologictilman, told me off about what ?14:57
tilmanabout being rude14:58
prologicI was rude ?14:59
prologichow odd14:59
tilmanwell, he apparently thought you were :D14:59
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prologic*meh* fine14:59
prologicthis is Han we're talking about right ?15:00
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treach"the faster computers get, the more idle they sit"15:00
prologicbs :)15:00
treachstrange, I've never noticed that15:00
prologicme neither15:00
prologicwhos't he idiot that said that ?15:00
prologicHan ?15:01
prologicyou're joking ?15:01
prologicgeez christ15:01
treachIf I didn't know you were blind I'd ask.:p15:01
prologicsee here I always thought he was a fairly rude abd obnoxious guy15:01
prologicwho had some serious "complex" issues15:02
treachprologic: are you ignoring RedShift?15:02
prologicumm no15:02
prologiche's quite nice :)15:02
* prologic pokes RedShift 15:02
treachthen look back a few minutes15:02
RedShiftsup prologic15:02
prologichmm backlog don't go back that far now :/15:02
prologicaye RedShift who you been harrassing ? :P15:03
RedShifteh nobody?15:03
RedShiftwhat did I do?15:03
prologicno idea!15:03
prologichmm coffee :)15:03
prologicI think I've misplaced context somewhere I dunno what's going on :)15:03
treachapparently you're in the wrong dimension.15:04
treachyour clock is off almost 24 hours.15:04
prologicthat'd be why15:08
* jaeger has no idea what's going on15:10
thrice`same :)15:12
* jaeger is fine with this15:12
treachok, let's all just go back to idling, then.15:13
treachThat way you'd be a complete loser to lose the plot. :>15:13
jaegerthat would be impressive, indeed15:13
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ciolhi hp_tux you're in lfs-support too :o)15:36
hp_tuxyes, of course! :-D15:37
ciolit's uncommon to see someone on two different network15:38
hp_tuxwell, the world is small ;-)15:38
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SemionoHi all16:03
SemionoWhy CRUX has not mini distro? like base ore boot?16:05
RedShiftI think he's trying to say something16:05
acrux'cause crux is a mini distro16:05
RedShiftwhat is it Semiono, did little timmy fell down the well?16:05
acruxremove xorg and 1/2 opt then do an iso yourself16:06
acrux(damn... really a cruxish answer.. lol!)16:06
Semionoself? it'll be work!16:06
SemionoI will try!16:06
acruxthere is a good howto16:06
SemionoI so planned recreate manuality iso =)16:07
Semionohowto page is well!16:07
acruxgood luck ;)16:08
SemionoYeah! Thanx!16:08
acruxYour satisfaction is our #1 goal16:09
acruxgh :D16:09
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SemionoPlease, sorry for me... but why I found acsii names in distros like devil...16:11
Semionocause it's I wish rebuild distro self16:11
treachhm, kingsize language barrier.16:13
Semionoand I newbie more )16:16
treachMaybe you should put off the "rebuild everything" ideas until you aren't?16:19
treachIt's not trivial, you know.16:19
SemionoI think about my soul... Crazy words is dengerous... I don't know...16:20
Semionogcc pathc contain it16:21
Semionoterminal/d more16:21
Semionomany bad word16:21
treachI'm sorry, I can't make any sense of that.16:21
SemionoOk! I will read howto16:22
treachgood luck16:22
SemionoThanks! Regards!16:22
SemionoIts about I talking coming within large pakages like Xorg and others......16:23
SemionoI know!16:24
treachif you don't need them, don't install them16:24
treachno need to rebuild the dist for that16:24
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treachof course, it will limit what you can do a lot.16:25
SemionoCRUX team cool I know now! )16:25
treachlike, no firefox.16:25
predatorfreaktreach: What = no firefox?16:26
treachpredatorfreak: no X == no firefox16:26
predatorfreakWell, duh.16:26
predatorfreakNo X = 1990.16:26
treachpredatorfreak: I'm trying to express myself simply.16:26
Semionokill to firefox!16:26
predatorfreaktreach: I'd just say "No X = System from 1991."16:27
treachlook in the log  and you'll see why16:27
predatorfreaktreach: What log?16:27
treachthat's bull16:27
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predatorfreaktreach: Well, sure, there's some more powerful apps for non-X systems these days.16:27
predatorfreakBut anything decent for multimedia beyond music is X-bound.16:27
predatorfreaktreach: mplayer with fbdev is not that great ;)16:28
treachmplayer works excellently with framebuffer these days.16:28
Semionowhat is device or that? terminal/d/devil16:28
predatorfreaktreach: Sure, except you can't move the window it generates.16:28
SemionoI'm kill it16:28
predatorfreakwell, not window.16:28
predatorfreakand it doesn't autoresize the framebuffer.16:28
predatorfreakLeaving a giant freaking terminal in the background.16:28
predatorfreakHell, it doesn't even center it here <_<16:29
jaegeryou can make it resize the video to match, though16:29
treachmmmh, I think you can fix that in the config file.16:29
predatorfreakjaeger: Distortions out the ass on small files.16:29
predatorfreakPlus the performance is degraded significantly.16:29
predatorfreakNo proper acceleration provided by things like XV.16:29
SemionoToday I firstly downing to IRC... Sorry for lang )16:29
treachfeed mplayer stuff like dotclock and h/v sync and it should do fine.16:29
jaegerwell, no one's making you play it in the framebuffer16:30
treachpredatorfreak: it's fast enough here, so I guess it's not that slow.16:30
predatorfreaktreach: Performance is still degraded, it's not nearly as usable as mplayer in X.16:30
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predatorfreakIt's only useful for playing like one video at a time without a decently powerful system.16:30
treachdepends on what you mean with "useable".16:30
predatorfreakPlus, current fbdev in the kernel has major drawbacks that need addressing.16:31
treachyou look at more than one movie at the time, frequently?16:31
predatorfreaktreach: Try playing a video with a decently CPU intensive filter and it's almost the same effect.16:31
treachI do.. no problem so far.16:32
predatorfreakYou're wasting cycles doing shit the video card can do for displaying crap by using fbdev, on my old system I could get frameskips using -vf spp,hqdn3d on fbdev.16:32
predatorfreakOn H264 content.16:32
predatorfreakWhich never happened in X.16:32
treachwell, there's alwasy cvidix16:32
predatorfreakLimited support, even my old 6800 GT wasn't supported by cvidix :\16:33
predatorfreakNot sure if they fixed that recently.16:33
treachwell, happily that wouldn't be needed if I got things right.16:33
predatorfreakBut I never managed to get cvidix working on that thing.16:33
treachapparently nvidia cards can output graphics into a pure text-console.16:33
treachI'd love to know how well that works. :P16:34
predatorfreaktreach: Knowing NVIDIA.16:34
predatorfreakGiant blocks!16:34
predatorfreakor tiny dots all over.16:34
treach*shrugs* I don't know, I've never tried it. :)16:34
predatorfreaktreach: oh and don't get me wrong, I love my terminal.16:34
predatorfreakIt's just that for certain things, X is better.16:35
predatorfreakand video playback is one of those things.16:35
treachof course.16:35
predatorfreakDue to proper hardware acceleration.16:35
predatorfreakLeaves more CPU to doing things like decoding and post-processing ;)16:35
treachI don't neccessarily agree with that, but browsing and gimping goes into the X category.16:35
treachfor instance.16:36
predatorfreakBlarg someone needs to port azureus 3 <_<16:36
treachpdf viewing is the same, even though you can convert it to text/html16:36
treachsomeone needs to come up with a c/gtk replacement. :P16:37
predatorfreaktreach: Although, I'm still pissed at NVIDIA for fucking Linux users over with proper hardware DECODING acceleration.16:37
predatorfreakIt'd be real dang nice to offload H264 decoding to my 8600GT on Linux.16:38
predatorfreakBut we don't even get XVMC support for the 8000 series <_<16:38
jaegertime to go ATI16:38
predatorfreakjaeger: Yeah, when ATI support H264 decoding on Linux with high performance drivers.16:39
predatorfreakI'll switch.16:39
jjpkKeep on dreaming.16:39
predatorfreakSo far, they're still being greedy too.16:40
jjpkThink about it, would any company be successful without greed in one way or another?16:40
jjpkWhat is good for the company is not necessarily good for the customer.16:41
predatorfreakjjpk: I know.16:41
predatorfreakand that's why I wish there was a viable graphics card maker BESIDES ATI and NVIDIA that I could actually use for gaming.16:41
predatorfreakNo such thing.16:41
jjpkAt least nothing viable.16:42
jjpkI am quite certain I heard about an open source hardware project.16:42
jjpkIt could have fizzled out, never followed up on it.16:42
predatorfreakOpen Graphics Project?16:43
predatorfreakCouple years back they were looking to be on track.16:43
predatorfreakand were supposed to deliver a decent mid-range card by last year sometime.16:43
predatorfreakBut it never came.16:43
treachmmh, wonder what happened to powerVR..16:43
predatorfreak <-- Am I the only one failing to see a decent feature there? :\16:45
predatorfreakBeyond MAYBE apparmour, but other distros have been using SELinux for essentially the same thing forever.16:45
predatorfreakand SELinux isn't Novell-created.16:45
jjpktreach: wikipedia claims they were unable to compete against nvidia and ati.16:47
jjpkI'd say that is relatively vague of an explanation.16:47
treachMircosoft will invade your computer if you use something created by novell?16:48
predatorfreaktreach: I never understood why Ubuntu need to make new releases which don't bring anything that hasn't existed BEFORE to the table.16:48
predatorfreaktreach: Well, probably not.16:48
predatorfreakBut SELinux works just as well, if not better.16:48
predatorfreakDoesn't require external kernel modules supported by a third-party.16:48
treachIntegration, and ease of use springs to mind as valid reasons.16:48
predatorfreaktreach: SELinux is integrated into the mainline kernel.16:48
treachfrom what I've seen SELinux isn't particulary easy to use.16:49
treachNot integration in that sense.16:49
predatorfreakEase of use apparently doesn't matter as with ubuntu, they should be doing everything for people ANYWAY.16:49
predatorfreakHell, if Fedora can make a desktop distribution with SELinux.16:49
predatorfreakSo can Ubuntu.16:49
treachI meant integration like eg. SAMBA etc is integrated in YAST16:49
treachFedora is just RHEL GPE.16:50
treachNO sane people would touch it, unless they didn't know better.16:50
jjpkThose features in upcoming gutsy gibbon are more in the improvement of the existing.16:50
predatorfreaktreach: You can integrate SELinux into Ubuntu just as well.16:50
jjpkYou cannot really say it is innovation.16:50
predatorfreakDoing essentially that.16:50
treachpredatorfreak: of course, that was my point!16:50
predatorfreakjjpk: Even worse some of them are just rehashes on old utilities.16:51
jjpkPerhaps Ubuntu believes SElinux is not for the general public.16:51
predatorfreakjjpk: Heck, GNOME has had a CUPS configuration GUI forever.16:51
predatorfreakImproving that would have been better than writing a new one.16:51
predatorfreakImprove -> Submit upstream -> Helps everyone16:51
treachthat has a huge gotcha..16:51
jjpkYes and no, it depends to be honest.16:52
jjpkMaybe the devs were unable to work with each other, who knows.16:52
treachThe highly esteemed "upstream" has to accept your patches.16:52
predatorfreaktreach: Yeah, but Ubuntu have a lot of push.16:52
jjpkThat too, it could be down to pride or dev politics.16:52
treachwhich is kind of in doubt especially with the gnomeites16:52
treachTheir way or the highway, the gnome theme ├╝ber alles.16:53
predatorfreakRed Hat get shit that I think it flatout insane upstream, so I'm sure Mark Shuttleworth can shove a few hundred bucks into it.16:53
predatorfreakand either way, it's better to at least TRY to get it upstream.16:53
treachRed Hat employs a significat part of the gnomites, iirc.16:53
predatorfreakNIH syndrome is evil.16:54
jjpktreach: it does seem like ubuntu are a force to their own.16:54
predatorfreaktreach: They employ a lot of key developers period.16:54
jjpkThe ubuntu way or the highway as you said.16:54
treachpredatorfreak: indeed, but we were talking about gnome.16:54
predatorfreakAh well.16:55
treachjjpk: I haven't got the impression ubuntu hires a lot of developers.16:55
treachA whole bunch of former debian maintainers iirc, but not much in the way of devs.16:55
predatorfreakNah, Mark Shuttleworth sells those positions out to people in India to save money.16:56
treachI might ofc be completely wrong about thay.16:56
jjpkI have no idea how their organization works or who they have hired.16:56
predatorfreak"They also claim that AppArmor requires fewer modifications to work with existing systems; for example, SELinux requires a filesystem that supports extended attributes, and thus e.g. cannot provide access control for files mounted via NFS. AppArmor does not mind what kind of file system a file resides on."16:56
predatorfreakThere's a solid reason for AppArmor over SELinux.16:57
predatorfreakNewer filesystems are always slow as fuck to add extended attributes.16:57
predatorfreakand for some, like FAT32, you just can't.16:57
* treach waits for btrfs.16:57
predatorfreakAt least, not without horribly breaking the established format.16:57
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treachfat sucks, I'm not even sure it has a format.. :p16:58
treach"Lets just dump this shit all over the disk, and put out some pointers and hope for the best" :D16:58
predatorfreaktreach: I know some people that have a "shared" FAT32 partition which stores like a couple Windows app run in both windows and linux through wine.16:58
predatorfreakand their music and shit.16:58
jjpkIt works when it works, but it probably does not have too much engineering and testing behind it. :P16:59
treachthey should use ext2/316:59
jjpkJust enough to see it works somehow.16:59
predatorfreaktreach: Hehe, that's what I use personally.16:59
treachgood choice.16:59
predatorfreak/home = separate ext3 partition mounted read-only in Winders.16:59
predatorfreakThat way I get music.16:59
predatorfreakBut nothing gets to write :)16:59
jjpkIt would not be pretty if windows could write to ext2/317:01
treachbut it can, with proper drivers17:01
predatorfreakjjpk: *shiver* I'd NEVER want Windows going anywhere NEAR my data on Linux.17:02
predatorfreakThe most I'm going to let it do is read it.17:02
jjpkI was aware that you can read ext2/3 partitions, at least with some software.17:02
treachI'd NEVER want Windows going anywhere NEAR my data on *anything*, FULL STOP.17:02
jjpkFirst time I did that was sometime in 2002 or 2003 when I was still getting my feet wet.17:02
predatorfreaktreach: if Windows eats it's own files.17:03
predatorfreakThat's fine by me ;)17:03
predatorfreakIt can kill itself if it wants too.17:03
jjpkSomehow managed to screw up the slackware installation.17:03
treachThat's what you get from messing with the devil.17:03
jjpkMy slackware installation was already hosed. :p17:04
jjpkI probably could have salvaged it now, but back then I lacked the knowledge.17:05
treachfirst time firing up vim was interesting too. :D17:05
jjpkIt sure was.17:06
jjpk"WTF DO I DO!?!" :D17:06
treach"How do I quit this!?" "HELP!"17:06
predatorfreakOh God.17:06
predatorfreakI was like "OMG WHAT THE HELL IS WITH THIS THING?"17:06
predatorfreak"ALL I WANT TO DO IS CHANGE ONE LINE OF TEXt!"17:06
predatorfreakand I rebooted to close it XD17:06
treachlots of people do that.17:07
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jjpkhaha, extreme times call for extreme actions :D17:07
treachI'm actually proud I didn't have to do that.17:07
treachI switched to another VC and killed it.17:07
jjpkI might have closed it by ctrl+z or so, or I just closed xterm.17:07
treachthat's not closing.17:07
treacha lot of people find that out, too. :D17:07
jjpkSuspending. The point being that I got it out of the way. :p17:08
predatorfreakjjpk: I wasn't in X :(17:08
treachin the end they have like 50 instances of vim running. ;D17:08
predatorfreakI was in a normal terminal trying to make X start.17:08
jjpkI was using pico before I dared to type vim.17:08
treachjjpk: I know you know the difference, just pointing out that  a lot of newbies doesn't.17:08
treachthey see the app go away and think "whew, saved!"17:09
predatorfreakjjpk: Yeah, I wound up starting out with gedit, then moved to pico, then nano for a long time.17:09
treachpredatorfreak: X? what kind of luxury was that?17:09
predatorfreakand now I refuse to not use vim :P17:09
predatorfreaktreach: I would have had windows.17:10
predatorfreakand since I didn't know about vt's back then.17:10
predatorfreakI could have just closed xterm and been done :P17:10
treachMy first interaction with linux was with kernel 1.3.x something.. X was available iirc, but hw support was so severly limited that it didn't run on my system.17:10
jjpkMight have been late 2001 when I tried to install peanut linux.17:11
treachnot to mention it was a great deal harder to set up in those days.17:11
jjpkFailed miserably haha.17:11
predatorfreakSadly, I only started in like late 2003 early 2004.17:11
predatorfreakand I was pampered by the shittiness of Fedora for approximately one month.17:12
predatorfreakThen I killed it with Slackware when I was reinstalling it everyday because it would constantly hose itself.17:12
jjpkI was lucky because I had someone who had used slackware for a long time help out.17:12
treach"new packages available, want to upgrade?" "Yes"17:13
treachthat's fedora for ya. :>17:13
jjpkI was about to install red hat, but because it required 3-4 cds then, I dropped that project.17:13
predatorfreaktreach: Oh god I swear, like EVERY SINGLE PACKAGE would eat half the damn system.17:13
treachslack was gold back then.17:14
predatorfreakStill is, only, it's a babystep Distribution.17:14
predatorfreakIt's your first introduction to real Linux.17:14
predatorfreakThen you move on to something with a tad more features.17:15
predatorfreakLike Arch or CRUX or what have you.17:15
treachI haven't used it since 8.017:15
predatorfreakor you cry and go running back to Windows :P17:15
treachbut I used it until then, that's when I jumped over here. :)17:15
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jjpkSlack is still slack, it might have more packages but it is still recognizable.17:15
treacheither way, as they say, I never looked back.17:16
jjpkThe same is happening with crux.17:16
jjpkA few changes here and there, but mainly very conservative.17:16
predatorfreakjjpk: Only, unlike Arch, we're gaining packages but not fucking everything over :P17:17
predatorfreakArch still feels like an "unprofessional CRUX clone with binaries" to me.17:17
jjpkArch is based on good principles, but to me, it seems, they are losing sight.17:17
predatorfreakBecause they constantly fuck over packages.17:17
treachTossing working things away just because it's old.. it the pinnacle of stupidity.17:18
jjpkI see nothing wrong with using a version that works until a newer working one is released.17:18
treachjjpk: not talking about versions.17:18
jjpkThrowing something out because it is "old" is not a very good move imo.17:19
treachI'm talking about replacing an ncurses installer with an almost identical "GUI" one, for instance, just because "text-mode is bad"17:19
treachgenerally speaking, I also think that binary distributions are not worth the effort.17:21
treachjjpk: have you used the debian "gui" installer?17:21
jjpktreach: the standard installer?17:22
treachit's essentially identical to the ncurses one, main difference being that it uses gtk!17:22
jjpki have installed deb 4.0, but it was with a netinst iso.17:22
jjpkProbably I have not seen the gtk gui.17:23
treachI think you can get the "gui" installer with that too.17:23
predatorfreaktreach: Every time some fancy new userspace tool comes out.17:23
predatorfreakThe Arch developers jump on it.17:23
predatorfreakI mean rapid-fucking-fire.17:23
predatorfreakand the best you get in most cases is "Shit changed, here's what you should do."17:23
treachjjpk: you have to type "gui-installer" or something like that at the boot prompt17:24
predatorfreaktreach: Honestly, they even put a patch in that was "supposed" to fix a problem once.17:24
jjpkIn that case, I have not used it.17:24
predatorfreakThat wound up creating another problem.17:24
predatorfreakWhich was WORSE than the original problem.17:24
treachjjpk: no big loss. :P17:24
treachpredatorfreak: haha17:24
jjpkOuch haha.17:25
jjpkYou could live with a minor problem, but that is a bad one.17:25
predatorfreaktreach: I've no problem with patching problems.17:25
treach"The operation was successful, unfortuneately the patient died". :D17:25
predatorfreakBut I swear, most of the people MAINTAINING the packages don't use them.17:25
jjpkpredatorfreak: yeah, you hope the patch fixes the problem, not create another one.17:25
jjpkThat's comforting to know haha.17:26
predatorfreakjjpk: Rather than patch, test, test more, release.17:26
jjpk"Yeah I built the latest xorg release, I wouldn't use it myself"17:26
predatorfreakEven Gentoo (SHOCK!) had better QA than Arch.17:26
predatorfreakand their developers bicker amongst themselves over who has the right idea to do something stupid.17:26
treachwell, gentoo is quite a bit bigger.17:26
predatorfreak-had +has17:26
treachand sadly size matters, at least with QA.17:27
predatorfreaktreach: Yeah, but lately ciaranm's brigade of crazies has been inciting a lot of flamefests.17:27
predatorfreakSure, but only in a "GOD DAMN IT YOU SHUT THE FUCK UP" kind of way.17:28
jjpkDev egos in play? :p17:28
predatorfreakjjpk: Oh, big tim.17:28
predatorfreakand ciaranm's ego is so huge it possesses his lackies.17:28
predatorfreakSadly, the guy's projects are actually well coded.17:29
predatorfreakHeck, paludis is better coded than portage.17:29
predatorfreakJust wish he could have a better dang ego.17:29
predatorfreakThen maybe some of the core "problems" with Gentoo could get fixed.17:29
predatorfreakAs Gentoo is fine for an update-every-couple weeks server, but Jesus Christ it's annoying as fuck to use on a desktop.17:30
predatorfreakBecause you have to unmask like 20000 packages.17:30
treachyou've got to love the way ports in portage manages to depend on "masked" or broken stuff.:D17:30
predatorfreakof fairly tested apps :\17:30
predatorfreaktreach: Oh yeah that too.17:30
treachit's so god damned annoying.17:31
treachI'd never use gentoo for anything.17:31
predatorfreaktreach: It works okay on my server, primarily because I keep that MOSTLY as a stable x86 system.17:31
jjpkpredatorfreak: since you seem to be more or less up to date on gentoo happenings, aren't there at least 3 portagelike systems?17:32
treachIf I was to run a server, I'd use anything as long as I didn't have to bother with windows or gentoo.17:32
treachthose two are just way too much bother.17:32
predatorfreakjjpk: portage, paludis and pkgcore.17:32
jaegerpredatorfreak: I've found using it with the ~ keyword setup to be fine for a desktop17:33
predatorfreakpkgcore is a faster/cleaner version of portage, still in python.17:33
predatorfreakpaludis is ciaranm & lackies remake of portage in C++, fast, good quality control, works.17:33
predatorfreakand portage is obvious.17:33
jjpkI think that fact alone has some bearing on serious internal disarray.17:33
predatorfreakjaeger: There's other things I don't like about it.17:33
jjpkTensions in the dev camp.17:34
predatorfreakFor example, the complexity of the init system.17:34
predatorfreakIt's almost as freaking bad as upstart.17:34
jaegerI still don't prefer it over crux but it's usable, to me17:34
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predatorfreakjjpk: I say they should adopt paludis, even if ciaranm is an asshole.17:34
predatorfreakjaeger: I've ran it on my desktop like 4 times now.17:35
predatorfreakand every time I had to go to something that did "less behind my back".17:35
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predatorfreakI hate overtly complex init scripts, insanely crazy system configuration, etc.17:36
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* predatorfreak is a KISS man.17:36
predatorfreakand no I do not mean the band.17:36
jjpkYeah, several years ago I found their way of doing things unusual.17:36
* predatorfreak hides face paint.17:36
treachstill not interested in sic? :p17:36
predatorfreaktreach: Too simple! :P17:36
jjpkIt worked, but it was not my cup of tea.17:36
predatorfreakjjpk: My experience too.17:37
predatorfreakSadly, it's only gotten worse for me.17:37
predatorfreakThey've added more-and-more junk lately.17:37
treachhow can you state, with a straight face that you're a KISS guy, and still use that abnomination X-chat?17:37
predatorfreaktreach: It's more complex than irssi or something, sure.17:37
predatorfreakBut it does what I need, it's decently usable to me.17:38
predatorfreakand I like the interface.17:38
predatorfreakWhen you want to make irssi have a tab section on the left of the screen.17:38
predatorfreakI'll be happy to use it.17:38
treachthat doesn't make sense.17:39
treachor at least I can't make any of it.17:39
predatorfreaktreach: Sure it does, irssi doesn't "feel" right to me.17:39
predatorfreakxchat DOES feel right to me.17:39
predatorfreakNot everything I use is going to be absolutely KISS.17:39
predatorfreakBut I try to keep most stuff decently simple.17:40
treachdwm, vim, bitlbee -> bliss :>17:40
treachoh, right, add mutt to that. :)17:40
predatorfreaktreach: Well, technically though, through your logic for not being a KISS type person, Firefox should exclude anyone running CRUX for KISS reasons :P17:41
predatorfreakBecause it's a horribly complex monster.17:41
treachof course, but it's not like we're flooded with alternatives.17:41
predatorfreaktreach: Sadly, that's true.17:41
treachI wish there was a better one though.17:41
predatorfreakAdobe bork flash in Opera.17:41
predatorfreakand made that unusable to me.17:41
treachIt's not like I like ff.17:41
predatorfreakand Dillo is GTK1 and shitty support for CSS and the like :\17:42
treachthere's kazekahase, but it's too immature yet.17:42
predatorfreaktreach: Blarg, there's also the fact Gecko is still huge.17:43
predatorfreakIn fact, Gecko and XUL are the main reasons Firefox is so damn huge.17:43
treachIt can supposedly use gtk-webkit.17:43
predatorfreakThat's even MORE immature.17:43
predatorfreakand hasn't seen enough development recently.17:44
treachindeed. :)17:44
predatorfreakThere's Konqueror too.17:44
treachso, we're stuck with ff for now. :)17:44
predatorfreakBut ehhh.17:44
predatorfreakYou need KDE for that.17:44
predatorfreakSo no.17:44
treachI can think of better ways to spend my time than building kde.17:44
treachespecially if you add it to the time I have to spend on gtk stuff anyway.17:45
predatorfreakTo be honest, I think FLTK2 is a beautiful toolkit.17:45
predatorfreakBut no one USES the damn thing.17:45
treachonly very, very marginal stuff.17:46
jaegerI find it hard in general to care about the stuff that pisses *nix users off17:46
predatorfreakjaeger: You're not a good *nix user! :P17:47
jaegerif you say so =P17:47
jjpkAlready whipping out the No True Scotsman logic. :D17:47
jaegerI like to use my linux box, not be pissed off at it17:48
predatorfreakjjpk: Before long I bet we can degrade this into a "MY PENIS IS BIGGER THAN YOURS" discussion.17:48
predatorfreakNo wait, that'd be bad.17:48
jaegeror talk about nazis17:48
* jaeger throws in some godwin's law17:48
predatorfreakjaeger: But Hitler is such a perfect topic! :P17:48
jjpkMight be, but it has a tendency to bring out people who get completely locked on a single argument. Hitler bad!!11117:51
jjpkHe might have given orders, but I doubt he did any of the work himself.17:52
predatorfreakjjpk: Of course he didn't.17:52
predatorfreakHe really was just a nice public figurehead.17:52
treachor rather, Hitler bad, there for any comparision is invalid because nobody can think the same way. :>17:52
predatorfreakHe takes the large amount of the blame because he started it and ran the government.17:52
treachpoor guy, :>17:53
predatorfreakKind of like how Bush makes all Americans look like fucking retards.17:53
jjpkpredatorfreak: because he is the figurehead, it is an easy target.17:53
treachtypical fall guy.17:53
predatorfreakOnly, Bush has yet to start a war over something like race...... oh wait17:53
predatorfreakYeah I forgot.17:53
jjpkpredatorfreak: if you have brownish skin and oil, beware! muhahaa17:54
predatorfreakjjpk: Thankfully, I do not have much of either.17:54
predatorfreakSUN BAAD.17:54
* predatorfreak hides from the light17:54
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SiFuhhi aon morlenxus jaeger18:41
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*** sets mode: +oooo jdolan jaeger aon tilman18:47
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jaegerheyo, SiFuh18:56
SiFuhtrying to configure this fvwm..19:00
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SemionoWho need register? I not a bot ))) I not found on freenode any registering services only faq and docs!!!19:47
treach /msg nickserv help19:49
treachif you type that, it'll tell you how to register.19:49
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Semionook! ok! quit! )20:04
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predatorfreakjaeger: cups 1.3 breaks gtk's build.20:20
predatorfreakSame applies for kdelibs, but I know you're not the kdelibs maintainer :)20:20
predatorfreakProper fix from upstream for GTK.20:20
predatorfreakI'll e-mail the kdelibs fix to the respective maintainer.20:21
predatorfreakjaeger: e-mail sent.20:26
predatorfreakTesting patch now.20:26
predatorfreak(KDE libs I tested earlier)20:26
predatorfreakBlarg, won't apply :(20:26
* predatorfreak forward ports20:28
predatorfreakDang patches for previous versions.20:28
* predatorfreak tests forward ported patch20:36
* predatorfreak tests other patch <_<20:39
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majykI modified the vmware-workstation port so that it'll build a vmware-player port, too easy... except that when I run a virtual machine within vmware-player my wireless adapter rausb0 (rt73 based adapter) then disappears20:41
majykanyway see such a thing?20:41
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predatorfreakThere, a proper iptables init script :)20:52
predatorfreakjaeger: works.20:53
thrice`predatorfreak: the patch refers to 2.10.13; 2.10.14 is in ports - did you try this ?21:14
predatorfreakthrice`: Yes.21:14
predatorfreakIt applies clean and works.21:14
predatorfreak.14 didn't include the patch.21:14
predatorfreakStrangely enough.21:14
thrice`so, with cups 1.3.0 installed, gtk 2.10.14 won't build ?21:15
predatorfreakIt fails with a pointer dereference in the file that patch affects.21:16
predatorfreakDue to calling an old method of doing something-or-other in CUPS.21:16
thrice`yep, fails here too :)21:23
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thrice`anyone Deutsche, other than tilman ?21:52
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