IRC Logs for #crux Monday, 2007-10-08

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SiFuh_haha Tom Petty - Free Falling01:12
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namenloshm, crux is dying?02:37
predatorfreaknamenlos: No.02:37
predatorfreakLies spread by our enemies :)02:37
namenlospredatorfreak: it was sarcasm.02:37
predatorfreaknamenlos: I was being sarcastic too :\02:38
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namenlosanyone got problems compiling vim with the patch 7.1.133?03:43
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Romsternamenlos, vim seems fine to compile.08:44
Romsterif anyone noticed disruption to my private repo it was me restructuring it from a new cms08:44
Romstershould be stabe again now08:44
Romsterhmm now to attack avifile that i've been puting off.08:44
namenlosRomster: thanks for testing. it didn't compile on my local machine and on the computer at home, so i removed this patch from my vim port...08:45
Romsterwhat error did you get?08:46
Romsterthat patch is in core right?08:46
namenlosno, only my private repo.08:46
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Romster133, hmm i'm on 12308:47
Romsterwhere is your repo i odn't see vim listed on the ports db08:48
namenlosRomster: and
namenlosatm i am compiling vim again for the error.08:49
Romsternamenlos, why isn't your repo on the ports db?08:50
namenlosRomster: because there are imho many dublicates (not maintained versions of some ports)08:51
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namenlosand i don't want to be responsible, if i spoils someone's machind ;)08:51
Romsterit is a private repo for a reason...08:52
Romsterif you spoil a machine it's there fault for using your ports.08:52
Romsterbut that's unlikely if you're responsable.08:53
namenlosRomster: some kind you're right. but i don't like the dublicates..08:53
Romstereh i got dupes in my repo too.08:53
Romstermy way of how i want a port.08:54
Romsterif one in another repo dosn't meet what i'm after.08:54
namenlosmost of the time i only copy a port, if it seems to be outdated08:56
namenlosor i don't want to include a whole repo only because of one port (or i don't know/trust the maintainer)08:56
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Romsterto all that use my repo i'm moving to rsync httpup will be removed at a later date, i'd mail the ML but as ya know, anyone in Australia is blocked from the ML /still/.08:59
Romster_mavrick61, can you fix the mailserver so Australians can mail the mailing list please....09:00
Romsterhmm who can i message for the ports database since i can not use email...09:01
tilmanRomster: i'll bring that email topic up again tomorrow09:01
j^2hey guys09:01
Romsternamenlos, prt-get edit :P09:01
Romsteruseally the port would be updated in time, if it's in core,opt,contrib,xorg,kde,gone etc.09:02
Romstertilman, thanks it's been way too long.09:02
tilmanyes :/09:02
Romsterhi j^209:05
Romsteri'm so cooking dinner to hungery to think on computer stuff now.09:06
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Romsternamenlos, does 136 compile?09:09
Romsterlooks like a missing library link to me09:12
namenlosRomster: yes, it compiles. yes, but i don't know which lib it should be. shouldn't cc throw an exception if it can't find a file in a #include statement?09:19
Romsterit should09:20
namenlosi think with this patch he locked out some #include statements with the #ifdef statement so that it doesn't compile any more for me.09:25
Romsterok funky vim built for me...09:28
Romsteri think has that function.09:28
Romsterbut i just did a pkgmk on your port and it compiled.09:29
namenlosRomster: yes, because i exclued the 133 patch.09:29
Romster134 is missing too...09:30
Romsterand 126...09:30
Romstereh how many paches are missing..09:31
namenlosyes, because they are for the extra package09:31
namenlospatch 133 is included here
Romsterwhy must vim be patched so damn much than to have the patches merged into the project anyways09:31
namenlosRomster: i think the patches are merged, but made available as patches too. see
namenloshere you canIf you did not unpack the09:33
namenlosextra archive, you may want to skip patches marked with "extra:".09:33
Romsterstill they could release vim 7.1.1 with all the patches added...09:36
Romstermaybe extra kept out in a seperate patch..09:37
Romstersomething in patch 133 is borked.09:38
namenlosno, it's a extra archive: he extra archive. This contains source and runtime files that are not used on Unix.09:38
namenlosimho it also contais the sources for mac (but this is an official unix :D)09:39
Romsteryet they have to be patched in the Pkgfile before compiling...09:39
namenlossorry, i misunderstood your comment.09:40
Romsteri mean why ddin't the devaloper make a new release09:40
Romsterthan all the patches.09:41
Romstergcc   -L/usr/local/lib09:41
namenlosyes, i agree, that those should be in different patches, but imho they are. and marked with extra in the readme09:41
Romsterthat can't be helping09:41
Romstersince we would need -L/usr/lib09:41
namenlosand the patches will be included in every new release.09:42
Romsterhence making the Package maintainer madness to maintain vim.09:42
namenlosif they would release for every new patch, we would have ~2 releases per week...09:42
Romsterwhen ever 7.2 is released.09:42
Romsterwell there is the option of vim-7.1-p<patch number>09:43
namenlosit is ok, if you got a script downloading the patches for you ;)09:43
Romsternot hard to make a new tarball.09:43
Romsteryeah that's just it more work...09:43
namenlosthis option is for make?09:43
Romsternamenlos, look at mpfr for a example cumulative patch09:47
Romsterthat's the example i'd like vim to be using...09:47
Romsterseperate paches as it is now or the option of a cumulative patch09:48
namenlosah, you mean they create a diff for the last released version09:50
namenlosnow i understand.09:50
namenlosbut then the maintainer also got to update the relase number and the .md5sum09:50
Romsterthat's not a problem with a corn job or some script.09:51
Romsteranyways there is a compiler def as you said so it'll be a configure problem..09:52
Romsternot detecting what to enable, best bet is what you've done, leave that patch out. as it is needed to link in crux.09:52
Romsteror hack the configure stuff to detect it right.09:53
Romsterat the lest the package maintaienr could of made a cumulative patch from all of them small patches, with a quick script.09:54
Romsteranyways i'm gonna get me some food...09:55
namenlosand i got to go ;)09:55
namenlosif i got time i will look at configure again.09:56
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wbeeneif a package is only available as a deb or rpm which should i choose? :p11:14
Romsterjaeger, mplayer rc2 is out11:17
Romsterwbeene, rpm and use rpm2targz11:17
Romsteruse one of the ports as a example/template.11:18
jaegerdebs can be unpacked with ar and cpio or something, so either one's fine11:18
wbeeneRomster: thanks, actually i noticed someone already has a port for oracle-xe11:25
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Romsterjaeger, oh didn't know of that for deb.11:29
tilmani usually just use alian to convert debs11:43
tilmanwell, i didn't use it in years, but iirc alien can do it :D11:43
rehabdollfuturama trailer11:53
jaegeractually I don't think they're ar and cpio, I think they're just ar and tar.{gz,bz2,lzma}12:31
jaegerbut still, easy to get into12:31
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schniggiejaeger: a new libotr is out, maybe you wanna update your port ;)12:31
jaegerI should probably remove that port, haven't used it in a LONG time12:32
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M0E`lnxis there any documentation on how to port an application?12:34
jaegerusing the ports system or porting between systems?12:36
jaegeranyone using vlc 0.8.6b or c and having dvd audio problems? I still don't know exactly where they're coming from12:37
M0E`lnxjaeger: I guess a better way to phrase the question would be... is there a howto that shows me how to write a Pkgfile for an application?12:37
jaegerM0E`lnx: take a look at
M0E`lnxthanks jaeger12:38
jaegeryou can also look at any of the Pkgfiles in the ports tree for comparison or examples12:39
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M0E`lnxjaeger: do you guys have a GUI for the portage system?12:51
jaegerthere have been a few projects for it in the past but I'm not aware of one that's fully developed12:52
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treachports != portagee..12:53
M0E`lnxtreach: thanks for the clarification12:53
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treachyou're welcome.12:54
M0E`lnxI use the cruxports4slack package on VectorLinux12:54
M0E`lnxand I'm developint a GUI for it12:54
treachit's your time, have fun12:54
M0E`lnxit's actually pretty close to done12:54
treachwhy is it that people waste time creating guis for all kinds of stuff, rather than doing something *useful*?12:55
jaegerobviously those who do it don't consider it a waste of time12:56
jaegerwhy bitch about it? if they want to do the work, let them12:56
treachor they don't realize it's a waste of time. ;)12:56
M0E`lnxI just think it'll be kool that's all12:56
jaegera matter of opinion12:56
M0E`lnxno offence12:56
treachjaeger: I'm not bitching, btw, just a bit amazed over the fixation with guis.12:57
rehabdolldont take it personal M0E`lnx, treach is just being himself :)12:57
jaegerPersonally I see no reason to discourage it. It's not what I'd spend my time doing but someone else is welcome to.12:58
treachI wasn't trying to discourage it. Seems like my magic way with words struck again.12:58
M0E`lnxI just thought I'd pick up a hobby, so I decided to give it a shot..12:58
jaegertreach: marking it as a waste of time sounds pretty discouraging, that's why it sounded like that to me12:59
treachok, it was just meant like an idle observation, not, "omg everyone coding gui's should die!"13:00
wbeenei don't like gui programming just because it is annoying13:01
treachsometimes guis make sense, sometimes it doesn't. creating guis just for the sake of creating guis is stupid though.13:02
wbeeneargh, i'm trying to use rpm2targz but my /tmp keeps running out of space :/13:02
jaegerM0E`lnx: if you're enjoying it, then by all means carry on :)13:02
wbeeneis there a way i can specify a different directory to use as tmp13:03
jaegerrpm2targz honors TMPDIR or something, doesn't it?13:03
treachI've had problems with that in the past, iirc.13:03
rehabdolltilman: i've tweaked my radeonhd-port description as per your request ;)13:03
M0E`lnxty jaeger I do enjoy it13:03
jaegeron line 34, ${TMPDIR:=$TMP}13:04
tilmanrehabdoll: i was thinking of a note for the iso release notes or handbook, but adding it to the port itself sounds good, too :)13:04
treachjaeger: btw, I think the handbook is located a bit obscurely on your updated iso, any thoughs on that?13:05
jaegeris it not located in the same place as the official?13:06
treachhonestly I don't quite remember. I think you have to dig down another layer, or so.13:06
treachI just thought of it.13:06
jaegeranyone know of a hex editor that looks something like bless but doesn't require mono? gtk is fine with me. I'm aware of the curses ones, looking for a simple gui13:07
jaegertreach: it appears to be in /crux/ on both13:08
treachhm, ok forget about me then. :(13:08
M0E`lnxjaeger: question:13:13
M0E`lnxif a Pkgfile contains a " Depends on: xxxx, yyy, " line, does that mean that the ports system will build those applications before the actual application that I want to build?13:14
treachif you use prt-get, yes13:14
thrice`prt-get can13:14
treachlike "prt-get depinst zzz"13:14
tilmanjaeger: tried gvim + xxd?13:17
jaegernot yet, sounds promising13:17
jaegerso I could convert, edit, convert back, I take it13:19
tilmani think  ;>13:20
jaegerI'll try it :)13:20
jaegerhrmm.. that works reasonably well but you have to change both frames, I guess13:21
tilmanif you need a sane hex editor, suse le (in my repo)13:23
tilmanit's not a gui though13:23
wbeeneis that safe for work?13:26
tilmanreminds me of
tilmanwbeene: beaver as in the animal that's eating trees all day ;)13:26
jaegerwork safe... but not necessarily mind safe13:26
wbeenetilman: yea, i would assume so, but i just like to be safe13:27
treachcooling problem? :p13:29
treachI've no doubt the case would muffle the noise, but I don't think it disspatiate heat that well.13:30
treach(I also kind of resent the idea of killing animals to make computer cases of them.)13:31
wbeeneme too, i'm a vegan13:31
treachI'm not.13:31
treachbut I still don't quite like it.13:32
tilmanit's roadkill, relax ;))13:32
wbeenein that case it is just silly :P13:32
treachtilman: I'm sorry, but that feels (to me) like ilse koch would defened her lamps with "they starved to death anyway".13:33
treachno offence, but it just makes me a bit uncomfy.13:34
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tilmantreach: i won't even comment that ;)13:57
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tilmanwhy does clemens think that alex deucher is working on radeonhd (or avivo)?14:05
jaegerI wonder if the xpress 1100m will ever be useful with any driver, hehe14:08
jaegerI use -video-ati 6.7.192 at the moment but it's not particularly impressive14:11
tilman1100m sounds like -avivo or -radeonhd would work better14:11
tilmanat least mode setting wise14:11
jaegerit's a weird r20014:11
tilmanoh, heh14:11
jaegerat least as far as I can tell14:11
tilmanthat's a mobile chip, i guess?14:11
tilmani know server chips are often castrated versions14:12
tilmanjaeger: any specific issues?14:12
treachseems to be used in macs.. "iLemon"?14:13
jaegertilman: nothing show-stopping but sometimes it seems to run a lot slower, randomly, than normal14:13
jaegerrestarting X will generally fix that14:13
jaegerhaven't really tried desktop-effects stuff like compiz or beryl with it, not too concerned about those14:14
tilmanexa or xaa?14:14
jaegergood question. whatever's default.14:15
jaegerXAA according to the log14:15
tilmantry to enable exa and the composite extension14:15
tilmanand run xcompmgr14:15
tilmanexa is trimmed to work best with a composited desktop14:16
jaegerhrmm, ok14:16
tilmanshould work mucho mucho better14:16
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tilmanjaeger: then again, the chip might be sooo strange that it doesn't work either. i dunno14:17
jaegerprobably won't hurt to test it14:18
jaegerguess I'll need an xcompmgr port14:18
treachmmh.. interesting. compiling firefox with one of --disable-{xprint,accessibility,feeds} makes the build fail at some canvas stuff..14:19
treachHere I was thinking it was related to cairo.. =]14:19
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rehabdollhow come gmplayer is not included in the mplayer-port? does everyone here use cmd-line only?14:57
thrice`requires more deps, doesn't it ?14:57
rehabdollgtk only14:57
jaegerbecause it's buggy as shit14:58
rehabdolltrue, but is useful still :)14:58
rehabdollI use it with my mouse acting sort of like a remote when watching stuff on my tv14:59
treachisn't it gtk1 only?15:01
drijenhi all15:02
treachhi dr ijen15:02
thrice`I thought you can use gtk215:03
rehabdollno, gtk215:03
rehabdollgtk1 is still supported15:03
treachah, I haven't looked at it for a very long time. I think it was gtk1 exclusively back then.15:04
jaegerwhen did they add gtk2 support?15:05
rehabdolldunno, long time ago15:05
rehabdolli've used the gtk2 interface for over a year15:06
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alanciohello people15:31
drijengood afternoon sir15:31
alancio:) glad to hear an answer15:31
alanciowe didn't die happy15:31
alanciooh, haven't you read the mailing list lately?15:31
drijennever have15:32
alancioyou should15:32
drijeni'm not to the skill level of the rest of the channel so i leave them alone15:32
alancioI see15:33
alanciomay I know where are you from?15:33
treachjust some guy in germany, apparently we're dying since we do not develop in the direction he'd prefer.15:33
drijenlinux is what you make it15:33
treachofc it would be a bit easier if he could decide himself in what direction he'd want to go..15:34
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* drijen watches an evolution compile15:34
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treachalso, not giving him developer status because he, well, commands it, apparently is another sign of dying. :P15:34
alancioyeah, first he starts by saying that he loves our philosophy, and then he rants about all the decisions made in crux15:34
alancioalso, he starts threatening about forking, and then doesn't have the balls to do it15:35
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treachmmh, and then the talk about "co-operation".. especially with the ppc people.15:35
alanciowell, at least we have something new in the mailing list15:36
alancioit hasn't been like this since arnuld's days :P15:36
treach*Anyone* who've been around for a while knows that has been tried before.. with *very* limited success..15:36
drijenwhat, forking?15:36
treachno, cooperating with the ppc people15:36
predatorfreakalancio: If he wants to fork go for it.15:37
drijenwas about to say, you can't really fork crux15:37
drijeni mean15:37
predatorfreakBut the biggest annoyance would be maintaining core/opt.15:37
drijenits a kernel and 60 packages15:37
predatorfreakdrijen: Sure you can.15:37
drijenhow much closer can you get and not be LFS?15:37
treachanother "networsix" or what was it...? =)15:37
rehabdollyou could fork the ports & pkg tools :)15:37
predatorfreakYou copy /usr/ports and make your own with X package replaced with Z.15:37
tilmanhow can anyone puts "worse" in a product name?15:37
drijeni can think of a few things i would like to see package wise15:37
drijenbut really15:38
treachtilman: It was probably true. :P15:38
drijencrux is what you make it15:38
alancioyes, han didn't like the normal pkgutils and he had his own version15:38
treachalancio: I think you are thinking of han15:38
alancioand I have my own version of several crux packages, just for myself15:38
* drijen remembers cussing out han once, :p15:38
tilmanalancio: well, who doesn't :)15:38
alanciohehehe, yes, he is missing in action15:39
drijenit was partially my fault, and i know better now, but still i laugh now at that memory15:39
rehabdollalancio: and then put it in contrib with the same name.. making ports -d whine15:39
thrice`yeah, that was bad15:40
predatorfreakalancio: Ahh, yeah I remember having my own fork-of-Han's-fork at one time.15:40
alancioI am thinking about making a "pam" repository, that builds everything with pam support15:40
drijenthrice`: what was bad15:40
predatorfreakNow I'm way too lazy to forward port all of Han's changes and produce another fork :P15:40
alanciopredatorfreak: that must have been dark15:40
thrice`uploading another pkgutils to contrib15:41
predatorfreakalancio: Not really, it worked fine and never screwed me over massively.15:41
alancioI think han had some very good ideas, they should be taken into account15:41
drijenthrice`: i've learnedto stick to the official stuff as much as possible15:41
alanciothrice: there was pkgutils and pkgutils-han15:42
predatorfreakalancio: If I get unlazy one of these days, I'll probably forward port Han's pkgutils.15:42
tilmanjust don't ;)15:42
predatorfreakIt's just a matter of "When I feel like investing the time".15:42
thrice`yes, crux is dying anyways :(15:43
alanciowhy not?15:43
predatorfreaktilman: Hey, Han was crazy fun :)15:43
drijenthrice`: how is crux dying15:43
treachI wonder who would go for those.15:43
drijenwhos in charge of crux anyway15:43
predatorfreakdrijen: He was being sarcastic, I think.15:43
drijengod i hoep so15:43
predatorfreakdrijen: The Tribunal, I guess? :P15:43
* drijen beats the crap out of thrice`15:43
drijenDON'T SCARE ME15:43
drijenpredatorfreak: who is....?15:43
tilmanpredatorfreak: no, he wasn't15:43
thrice`drijen: read the ML, it's true15:44
alanciodrijen: you have to read the mailing list, its fun15:44
rehabdollenjoy :)15:44
drijendrama lama?15:44
predatorfreakdrijen: I mean Tribunal as a combination of the core developers combined.15:44
alancioyou know what, I think Matthias-Christian (the german dude) had a bit of a point with the locale thing15:44
tilmanthe unholy trinity of four?15:44
alanciobut I didn't want to fuel his ego15:44
predatorfreaktilman: Sounds better.15:44
tilmanalancio: ditto, kinda15:45
thrice`the locale thing is directly on the homepage...I think it's reasonable as is15:45
treachalancio: if your english is bad enought to make nls a necessity, I don't think crux is the right distro15:45
tilmanit's highly unlikely it will change :)15:45
predatorfreakThe only thing is, if you're going to do all the locale stuff, you might as well make the whole distro Unicode.15:45
thrice`right after you incorporate make.conf into pkgutils, right?15:45
alanciotreach: think of the case where you want to install it for your mom and dad15:46
alanciopredatorfreak: there was a discussion about unicode in 2.415:46
rehabdollits easier to just install ubuntu and enable automagic updates15:46
alanciopredatorfreak: I think the idea was dropped because of performance issues, or compatibility with some programs15:47
treachIf I were to put my mom in front of a computer, I'd use opensuse or something like that.15:47
treachnot crux15:47
predatorfreakalancio: Performance isn't a big deal.15:47
predatorfreakI believe there's tiny differences.15:47
drijenpredatorfreak: i disagree15:47
drijengoing post -> login in 3 seconds makes other distros wet their pants15:47
predatorfreakand I only know like a handful of real-world apps that I know of which are broken with unicode support.15:47
predatorfreakdrijen: That's not unicode.15:47
predatorfreakThat's PAM.15:47
alanciorehabdoll: In my case I just let my family use my computer15:48
drijenpredatorfreak: i was meaing performance15:48
drijenthe speed of crux is one reason i enjoy using it15:48
alanciorehabdoll: can't afford a computer for every family member15:48
predatorfreakdrijen: I mean the performance difference with UTF-8 isn't a big difference.15:48
predatorfreakIt's tiny.15:48
drijenah, i misread sorry15:48
rehabdollget a divorce and you wont have to share :)15:48
predatorfreakFor most apps though, all you need to do is add15:49
alanciopredatorfreak: you think that the lack of PAM is what makes CRUX faster?15:49
treachdivorce his mom and dad..?15:49
predatorfreakexport LC_ALL="en_US.utf8" to /etc/profile15:49
predatorfreakalancio: For finish-boot -> login15:49
alanciorehabdoll: actually, I have to get married, to get the hell out of my parents house!15:49
rehabdollthen just move out :)15:49
predatorfreakEvery distro with PAM has a noticeable delay from finish-boot to login.15:50
predatorfreakWithout though, perfectly normal.15:50
alanciorehabdoll: it doesn't work like that in my family15:50
predatorfreakIt's basically instantly to the login prompt.15:50
alanciopredatorfreak: you think that delay is when using PAM with LDAP/NIS or also with PAM and shadow?15:50
predatorfreakalancio: The delay is PAM with shadow.15:50
predatorfreak/sbin/login takes longer to start up for some reason.15:51
jaegerwow. as hex editors go, bless is a piece of shit15:51
alanciopredatorfreak: login should't make PAM calls until trying to authenticate15:51
jaegerand that's impressive... should be hard to fuck up a hex editor15:51
predatorfreakalancio: I didn't debug it or anything.15:51
tilmanjaeger: you do need to write, right?15:51
predatorfreakI just know that it's slower to start when built with PAM.15:51
tilmanie you don't just need a hex viewer?15:52
jaegertilman: yes15:52
predatorfreakand fast without.15:52
jaegerguess I'll stick with xxd and vim15:52
alanciopredatorfreak: ever tried initng or an init alternative?15:52
predatorfreakalancio: I'm using runit now.15:52
alancionow THAT would make CRUX boot faster15:52
treachheh, score another one for "crappy mono based apps"15:52
predatorfreakand it's not it.15:52
predatorfreakIt's not init to /sbin/login handoff or whatever.15:52
predatorfreakIt's something odd about /sbin/login XD15:52
treachanyone know if there *is* something based on mono that isn't shit?15:53
rehabdollhow is PAM helping in keeping things "simple"?15:53
predatorfreakrehabdoll: It doesn't.15:53
drijentreach: beagle15:53
treachit's not shit?15:53
predatorfreakWhen it came up for 2.3 I remember saying it was a complex POS.15:53
rehabdollamen :)15:53
drijenalancio: i hate using initrd - compact on the lilo config works15:53
predatorfreakdrijen: He means initng, it's an alternative to sysvinit.15:54
drijen<- noob15:54
predatorfreakHorribly freaking complex really and annoying to setup.15:54
alanciopredatorfreak: there are /bin/login alternatives too, one comes with fgetty, it links with dietlibc instead of glibc15:54
predatorfreakI've got a runit setup personally.15:54
predatorfreakalancio: fgetty isn't /sbin/login!15:55
alanciopredatorfreak: I know, but it comes with a login program15:55
predatorfreakThe getty and the login program are two different things :)15:55
predatorfreakand I haven't ever been able to get dietlibc to work RIGHT on CRUX.15:55
alanciopredatorfreak: maybe its separated already, last time I tried it, it was bundled together15:55
treachpredatorfreak: asked sip about it?15:55
alanciopredatorfreak: I have a dietlibc port, and a fgetty port too15:56
predatorfreaktreach: About dietlibc?15:56
treachhe used to be the ucrux guy15:56
alanciopredatorfreak: I use fgetty instead of getty, just to save memory15:56
predatorfreaktreach: It's not a big deal to me.15:56
predatorfreakI'm fine with agetty.15:56
treachk, just a suggestion15:56
alanciook, also, I think using mksh as /bin/sh instead of bash helps a huge deal15:57
alancioI think thats the way it should be by default in crux15:57
treachalancio: already discussed. :P15:57
predatorfreakalancio: Seems fgetty has a checkpassword-based login prompt.15:57
alancioI know, I raised the point!15:57
treach(see dev ml. :o) )15:57
predatorfreaktreach: Where did that discussion go anyway?15:58
predatorfreakI never saw an official announcement as to whether or not it'd happen :\15:58
treachI think it beached on the startscript issue for now.15:58
alanciopredatorfreak: mailing list15:58
alanciopredatorfreak: the thread about 2.4 changes15:58
alancioI have to go people, bye15:58
alanciobe here for tomorrow's chat15:58
predatorfreaktreach: Primarily, then, I take it someone needs to convert the init scripts to sh-compatible/15:58
predatorfreak-/ +?15:59
treachbasically yes.15:59
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drijenthis mailing list guy souinds like a fat whiiner15:59
predatorfreakWell, I could rip the arrays and the like.15:59
drijenwhats the deal?15:59
predatorfreakbut to be honest, how much performance would we GAIN from that?15:59
tilmanhe's insane, that's all15:59
predatorfreakMaybe 2-3 secs?15:59
tilmanpredatorfreak: not much15:59
tilmanpredatorfreak: it's just neat15:59
predatorfreakIf even that.15:59
drijenblah, thanks for scaring me :(15:59
predatorfreakThe primary stalling stuff is fsck and the like :\15:59
treachpredatorfreak: prologic and I had it working a while ago, unfortuneatly we both lost it. :(16:00
tilmanYou **** ! ;)16:00
treachpredatorfreak: you'll have to use /bin/echo specifically though.16:00
predatorfreaktreach: Well seeing as all the scripts are fairly tiny I'm inclined to believe it wouldn't really make any serious difference in boot-time.16:00
treachno, it doesn't.16:01
predatorfreakWe'd need like 200000-line scripts before we'd probably see a human noticeable difference :\16:01
predatorfreaktreach: Why give us the cleanliness of the arrays and the like then? :)16:01
predatorfreakThey actually make the code easier to understand.16:01
predatorfreak-us +up16:02
treachnope .. using dash, in my case for ExecUseShell rather than bash is a big gain..16:02
predatorfreaktreach: in boot time?16:03
treachalso, depending on bash specifically feels a bit.. tardy?16:03
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predatorfreaktreach: Personally, I'd rather depend on bash and do things in a cleaner fashion that use trickery.16:03
treachsince when did being posix compliant become being "tricky"?16:04
predatorfreaktreach: Doing things like arrays in POSIX compliant sh is more trickery than an actual array.16:04
treachanyway. being less depending on bash would make ports etc more easily portable to other systems, where sh might not be bash.16:06
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predatorfreaktreach: Who else besides us uses ports? :)16:06
predatorfreakand ports != rc :)16:06
treachwell, the issue is /bin/sh, not the startscripts as such16:07
predatorfreaktreach: change /bin/sh, make sure the startup scripts call /bin/bash.16:07
predatorfreakBest of both worlds.16:07
predatorfreakCleanly-coded rc scripts, fancy ass tiny /bin/sh :P16:07
treachbesides, it's no big deal to fix the startscripts.16:08
treachthe changes are pretty minimal16:08
predatorfreaktreach: Sure, I know how to replace a bash array with something sh-compatible.16:08
treachso why depend on bash when there is no need for it?16:09
predatorfreakBut can you show me a solid performance gain that'd make it worth using a fancy workaround?16:09
treachfancy workaround, you mean like using " instead of ()?16:09
predatorfreaktreach: By the same logic, I can say why not use bash when it provides better arrays?16:09
predatorfreaktreach: and for i in $CRAP; do16:10
predatorfreakWhy not just use an array for a task that should be an array's task?16:10
treachbecause it's not portable?16:10
predatorfreakWho else is going to use OUR rc scripts?16:11
predatorfreakI sure as fuck don't see FreeBSD switching to them.16:11
predatorfreakor OpenBSD.16:11
predatorfreakand most Linux distros that MIGHT use them will probably have /bin/sh as bash.16:12
treachI don't particulary care either way. It was never about the startscripts per se.16:12
* drijen says "zsh" quietly16:12
treachyou're the one who get hung up on them.16:12
predatorfreakdrijen: My preference personally :)16:12
treachdrijen: not relevant.. :P16:12
drijentreach: i think what i'm getting at16:13
drijentreach: i don't really care what the devs do16:13
drijeni'm a user16:13
predatorfreaktreach: I'm just trying to figure out why we should really invest the time into that and not into improving the init scripts :)16:13
drijeni run shit16:13
drijenso long as it works, such discussion is moot for the rest of us - therefore an oligarchy is fine16:13
drijenjust my two cents for a convo that ended like 5 min ago :D16:13
treachpredatorfreak: tbh, if you had done the work in stead of arguing about it, you would probably be done by noe..16:13
predatorfreakI can think of a few improvements off the top of my head that'd be nice, but I'll save them for the meeting tomorrow.16:13
predatorfreaktreach: Sure, I probably would be :P16:14
predatorfreakIn fact, I'll prime the work for tomorrow now.16:14
predatorfreaktreach: There, idea 1 done :)16:17
predatorfreakThere, now it's even sh compatible.16:27
predatorfreakand now I also have to go eat :)16:27
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predatorfreakbe back in a few.16:28
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* drijen cusses out evolution17:00
drijen4.5 hours of compile time, and it decides it doesn't like libxml217:00
* drijen preps a skullraping.17:01
RedShiftevolution takes 4.5 hours to compile??17:01
RedShiftwhat computer is that?17:01
drijenall the deps17:01
treachevolution seems to be a schoolbook example of intelligent design..17:01
drijen3800+ X217:01
alancio64 bit?17:01
drijenhad some stops17:01
drijena package would break and i wouldn'tnotice for 20 min though17:01
drijenso thats something17:02
treachI always wondered if the name was chosen with some sense of irony. :S17:02
drijeni knew i should have stuck with mailx17:02
drijenbut i like evo'17:02
drijens interface17:02
treachmutt! :)17:02
drijenyeah mutt is nicetoo17:02
RedShiftthunderbird, kmail, sylpheed, no?17:02
alancioI use mutt for console, and kmail for graphic17:02
treachreliable as well. :--)17:02
drijenthunderbird is insecure, kmail is ok, but i don't want kde, and sylpheed doesn't like my provider for some odd reason17:03
treachthunderbird is bizarr17:03
RedShiftdrijen: how is thunderbird insecure?17:03
alanciothunderbird has stupidities17:03
drijenit doesn't strip html properly17:03
drijenleaves webbugs in17:03
drijenmakes me feel icky.17:03
treach35 MB source for a bloody mail client... incredible17:03
drijennot that i recieve spam anyway17:03
alancioI had to install an imap server on my own desktop :P17:04
RedShiftman I use thunderbird all the time :X17:04
alanciojust so I have consisten maildir handling everytime I switch mail agents17:04
drijenalancio: i'm moving that direction17:04
treachI used sylpheed mostly, until I got my msmtp stuff working.17:04
drijenbut dominan is a pro at handling my email17:04
drijeni haven't gotten a single spam in like a year at least17:05
alancioI read somewhere that eudora has resurrected, that was a good clients in its time17:05
treachpoor guy. want some?17:05
RedShiftdrijen: dominan, what's that?17:05
drijenRedShift: guy that helped me out when i was down17:06
drijenhe runs the email server i get my mail from17:06
drijenhmm getting a lot of libtool link warnings17:06
* RedShift zzz17:07
* drijen pours vodka on reshift and lights himon fire17:07
drijens/reshift/redshift s/himon/him on17:07
rehabdolltilman: will xorg-xf86-input-mouse be bumped to 1.2.3 before the next xorg-server release?17:07
alanciotilman: there is a bug with the new xorg-input-keyboard17:08
alancioI mean, xorg-xf86-input-keyboard17:08
alanciothe keyboard leds just don't work!17:08
alancioam I the only one?17:09
RedShiftI read that drijen17:09
drijenshoosh, you're burning17:09
RedShiftyou let that fine wodka go to waste17:10
drijenhurry up and turn over17:10
alanciohey, where is Tilman?17:10
treachI think the term is "you're on fire". :P17:10
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treachalancio: busy, or busy sleeping, I guess17:10
* RedShift zzz (for real)17:11
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alanciobusy sleeping with poll() or select()? :P17:11
rehabdollalancio: no17:11
alanciono what?17:12
rehabdollyoure not alone.. but probably the only one who cares :)17:12
rehabdollabout the leds17:12
alancioits a big deal for me, I am always using the numeric keys17:12
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alancioand also, I can't sleep at night, these damn leds are too bright17:12
alanciowhat happened with good old leds?17:13
alanciothat didn't enlighten the whole room?17:13
rehabdollsleep sounds nice17:14
treachmmh, shopping computer parts is hard, when you're not going for the computer/christmastree combo.17:14
rehabdolli've stocked up on keytronic boards, they stopped selling them in sweden but i found a local retailer who had some17:15
treachdang.. My old keytronic broke. spacebar gave up.17:15
treachthat was.. annoying.17:15
rehabdolli'll sell you one. 1000:-17:16
rehabdollsupply & demand17:16
treachheh, no thanks.17:16
* onestep votes for Sylpheed17:22
alanciorehabdoll: they sell on compuvest.com17:23
alancioI mean, keytronic keyboards, usb17:23
treachit's nice if they have the right layout17:24
alanciowhat is the right layout?17:24
alanciofor you?17:24
treach"svenska" yes17:25
treachaka swedish.17:25
rehabdollbork bork17:25
alanciohey, how do you write: lamb meat in swedish?17:26
treachcan't write it here, keymap currently messed up17:26
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alanciook :) thats the first swedish words I learned from my exchange student friends17:27
rehabdollyou have good friends17:41
rehabdollrandomly shouting out "lammkött!" on swedish streets will get you far in life :)17:41
alancioI also leaned a song called: ronka17:42
rehabdollthat sounds entertaining17:42
alancioalso, my friend is a great salsa dancer, that was very amusing17:43
alanciototally unexpected17:44
treachI thought salsa was something you ate..17:44
alancioyeah, it is, too17:44
* treach is more interested in food than dancing. :P17:44
alanciowhat kind of music do you dance over there?17:45
rehabdollthe same as any other western country dances to :)17:46
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treach*I* don't dance. Other people go clubbing or so I guess, or make some kind of drunken movement to some dance "music" that should be classified as crime against humanity17:46
treachlike these guys  ->
alanciorehabdoll: what you mean is electronic music17:47
predatorfreaktreach: So, you're for killing people who dance? :)17:47
treachno, but the so called musicians..17:47
rehabdollin clubs, yes17:48
treachthey should at least be flogged, and banned from ever making any kind of noise again17:48
predatorfreaktreach: Well, there's a lot of annoying as electronic artists with no real talent.17:48
drijenyou live in the world epicenter for techno17:48
predatorfreakBut then there's actual good electronic artists.17:48
predatorfreak-as +ass17:48
rehabdolltechno & general electronic music is bollocks17:49
treachdrijen: Sorry, my preferences tend to be < 1950.17:49
rehabdollsome exeptions ofcourse, koop is nice17:49
drijentreach: patsy cline?17:49
predatorfreakrehabdoll: Aphex Twin.17:50
drijentreach: realms brothers?17:50
rehabdoll <- real gay image though :)17:50
treachdrijen: no, rachmaninov, brahms, dvorak etc. :)17:50
predatorfreakRichard D. James is practically my God, although he's still out-classed by some of my other gods :)17:50
drijentreach: talent.17:50
treachyep, those guys had it.17:51
predatorfreakrehabdoll: The band or the time when human mind go boom?17:51
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