IRC Logs for #crux Sunday, 2007-10-21

Romsterthere i got firefox to load and work...00:26
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RedShiftomfg04:39
RedShiftarchlinux added ifconfig lo 127.0.0.1 up to the initscripts04:41
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nipuLeh eh eh, get some new work experience kids tomorrow06:43
nipuLthey have no idea what they have got themselve in for06:43
RedShiftnipuL: what line of work?06:44
RedShifthelpdesk duty is as close to the bible's defintion of hell *g*06:44
nipuLtechnician06:44
nipuLi've written a stock management system for all out spare parts06:44
nipuLit's going to be their job to test all the gear06:45
nipuLand insert them into the db06:45
nipuLs/out/our/06:45
RedShiftoh nice06:45
RedShiftalways fun when you have some to do the dirty work for you *g*06:46
treachhehe, can't be worse than when they computerized the libraries here. :P06:46
nipuLyep, the piles been sitting there for about 3 months06:46
nipuLgetting bigger and bigger06:46
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nipuLi'd guess there's about 1000 individual items06:47
RedShiftthe pain06:48
RedShifthow many guys have been hired?06:48
nipuLhire?06:48
nipuLthese kids are working for free06:48
RedShiftwhat the?06:48
nipuLwork experience06:48
RedShiftyou do know child labor is illegal in most developped countries *g*06:48
RedShiftah06:49
RedShiftI probably know what you mean06:49
nipuLit's part of their high school curriculum06:49
RedShiftso how many are coming?06:49
nipuL206:49
RedShiftthat's 500 each06:50
RedShiftnot so bad06:50
RedShiftI've seen worse jobs being handed out06:51
treachcould be worse, I guess. the librarians had to bang in like 40 000 titles in their db when they did away with the "oldschool" registry.06:51
treachand that was just in our small municipal library.06:51
RedShiftuuggh06:51
RedShiftI once knew a guy that had to copy about 10 000 records of customers from an excel sheet to an access database06:52
treachhahaha06:52
RedShiftand yes, I'm talking about the microsoft programs06:52
nipuLugh06:52
RedShifthell I'd quickly whip up a php script to do that06:52
treachtalk about work for nothing.06:52
RedShifthe spent a week doing that or something...06:52
teKaccess was designed handling such large amounts of data :>06:52
treachwell, access is able to import excel sheets afaik, but it's dead stupid to do so.06:53
treachI have no clue why you'd go for access when you set up a new system..06:53
RedShiftit was not my idea06:53
RedShiftA customer of mine uses microsoft outlook to keep his customer records06:54
treachwhich reminds me about my "convert stupd 'excel db' to oracle" project. :/06:54
teKexcel db to postgre is no fun either ;)06:54
RedShifthe edits the same mail over and over again, and occasionally backs it up by means of forwarding it...06:54
teKhrhr06:54
treachrofl06:55
RedShiftwhich ofcourse with all the related problems with "wysiwyg" and using microsoft word as the default email writer06:55
tilmanomfg06:55
treachoh, another "it worker" that should be flogged06:56
RedShifthe once asked me to upgrade his computer (no particular reason given) with 1 GB of RAM extra06:56
RedShiftI asked no questions (I didn't care either) and delivered the product as asked06:56
RedShiftso about a week later he calls me and says: I've just upgraded my computer with extra memory and I still can't store more email in my outlook!06:57
RedShiftobviously he's run into that 2 GB or something PST file limit06:57
RedShiftbut I refuse to fix it because he stores useless junk in his inbox06:57
treachsounds like the same type as those who in the infancy of computing called in, complaining that they couldn't store more info on their computer.06:58
teKI'm laughing my ass off, each time my administrator associate has to fix this Problem. maildir Format rocks!06:58
treachwhen the techicial arrived, the 5.25 floppy drive was jammed with floppies. :D06:58
RedShiftlol06:58
RedShifthe almost blamed me for recommending an upgrade that didn't do anything06:59
RedShifthe doesn't understand the difference between the work memory and the permanent storage very well...06:59
treachmm. not uncommon06:59
treachcomputer == screen, box==windows :S07:00
treachor box==harddrive07:00
tilmanyeah, box==harddrive07:00
teKcomputer == tv set  ...07:00
tilmanthat's so fucking funny07:00
treachtilman: yeah. :/07:00
tilmani couldn't believe it the first time i've heard about that07:00
tilman:D :D :D07:00
treachcomputers are just too many layers of abstraction for some people.07:01
RedShiftalot of people don't understand the monitor is entirely seperate from the machine07:02
nipuLi get way too many people that don't understand the difference between office and windows07:02
tilman"hello, IT - did you try turning it off and on again?"07:02
treachLinux tank 2.6.23.1 #1 SMP Sun Oct 21 02:58:17 UTC 2007 x86_64 x86_64 x86_64 GNU/Linux07:02
treach:)07:02
tilmanFUCK, i deleted my it crowd copies07:02
nipuLoops07:03
tilmanargh07:03
RedShiftI've received alot questions like, If I buy a new computer will I still be able to use my old monitor or do I have to buy a new one07:03
tilmanoh well, i should be working anyway ;)07:03
treachtoo crowded? :p07:03
tilmanyeah07:03
RedShiftmost people expect windows to be delivered with their computers07:03
treachyou should get a new drive, especially since your current is dying. :p07:03
RedShiftincluding microsoft office07:03
RedShiftand they sure as hell won't pay for it :X07:04
tilmantreach: i'll buy all new hardware in november07:04
treach\o/07:04
tilmanyeah, i'm looking forward to it like a 12 year old ;D07:04
treachI finally realized how much my sblive sucked. :p07:04
tilmanwhaat?07:04
tilmansb live ftw!07:04
treachthe integrated one here completely blows it away. :P07:05
RedShiftwell they're in for a surprise when they'll buy a computer from me: I never install an OS, nor is one selled with the computer07:05
tilmani love my sb live 1024 player value or how it's called07:05
tilman<307:05
tilmantreach: o_O what kind of chip is that?07:05
RedShiftI have an sb live too07:05
treachmcp 6107:05
teKRedShift: strange business model07:05
RedShiftit works perfectly fine07:05
teKdoes it work?07:05
tilmantreach: that's nforce, right?07:05
treachyeah, 43007:06
RedShiftteK: my actual business is not selling computers, I only sell quality computer hardware to friends and relatives07:06
treachit's a bit tricky in other aspects, but the sound works great. :P07:06
tilmanwhy did you go with an nforce 4 board? :o07:06
treachwhy not?  I don't fancy via, and it works.07:07
RedShiftmost consumers would be shocked if they passed by me to buy a computer, you won't get away with buying one for 500 euro or something07:07
teKa customer of mine did an upgrade from windows 98 to 2000. I was stunned...07:07
treachtilman: I didn't want anything newer since I like the worst bugs to be chased out first.07:07
tilmantreach: doesn't it only support sata1?07:07
tilmanmmh, ok07:08
treachnot afaik..07:08
RedShiftsince computers have been available from supermarket stores, people don't want to pay for it anymore and don't realising they are buying junk07:08
RedShiftsickening of the market07:08
RedShift*realise07:09
treachtilman: also, if I ever feel like it, I can stick 8GB ram on it. :o)07:09
tilmantreach: ditto :D07:09
RedShiftsame thing with laptops, you'd spend at least 2000 euro's for a decent laptop07:10
tilmanmy first choice was that asus m2n-x, until i was told that the 2gb limit sucked07:10
rehabdolltreach, ahci sata-driver?07:10
tilmanram is so frigging cheap, i might even stick more than that into it eventually07:10
treachno. nv-sata07:10
rehabdollouch07:10
RedShiftnow people are shocked if they cost more than 1000 euro while you still need to spend *at least* 1500 euro for a decent laptop07:10
tilmanrehabdoll: nforce5 is the first one to support ahci i believe07:10
RedShifttilman: nforce 4 supports AHCI07:10
tilmanRedShift: i spent 500 euro on a great laptop07:11
RedShifttilman: second hand?07:11
tilmannope07:11
tilmanbut it's not the latest and greatest model07:11
RedShifttilman: which brand/model?07:11
RedShiftah07:11
RedShift:p07:11
treachcheap laptop == really sucky keyboard. :/07:11
treachat least ime.07:11
nipuLmy laptop is a p2 400mhz07:12
nipuLno p307:12
teKP3 with 400MHz?07:12
RedShiftmine's a pentium 3 850 (yes with 100 Mhz fsb)07:12
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tilmani thought they started at 500 mhz07:12
nipuLnope07:13
RedShiftpentium 3 starts at 450 Mhz07:13
teKI got a compaq with p3 1200MHz  _luxury_, i see07:13
RedShiftah yes, the tuatulatin07:13
nipuLthe celerons start at 40007:13
tilmanteK: it's called luxury? :D07:13
RedShiftnow those were some great processors07:13
teKtilman: d'oh -_-07:13
treachhehe, I'm apparently on a rolls. :p07:13
tilmanno?07:13
teKit's called rafah.07:13
treach(PM 1.3)07:13
teKor compaq evo n600 or so07:13
RedShifta pentium 3 could easily beat a pentium 4 at a lower clockspeed07:14
tilmanteK: k, thought the model would be named that07:14
teKdon't think so ;)07:14
treachbuuuuut, a p4 can fry your dinner at any time.07:14
treachcan't do that with a p3. :D07:14
tilmanteK: my first computer was a "08/15" (vobis/highscreen somthing)07:14
teKhehe07:14
tilmanmost awesome model name ever07:14
RedShifthell my OC'ed tuatulatin celeron 1.6 Ghz had better scores than a p4 at 2.4 Ghz07:15
treachheh07:15
treachtilman: was it actually called "08/15"?07:15
tilmanyes!07:15
treachhaha07:15
treachok.07:15
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RedShiftso, moving the subject to packard bell07:16
tilmanit was written on the front in red07:16
* RedShift ducks07:16
tilmanat least it had a turbo button :/07:16
treachhehe. apparently marketing had no say at that company. :)07:16
treachwell, I had a "turbo" button on my first computer as well. No idea why they decided to put it there though..07:17
teKvobis / escom == aol of computer makers07:17
treachKind of pointless to put it on a dx4@100MHz07:17
treach(Yes, it was an amd)07:18
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RedShiftI always found their ads to be suspicious07:18
RedShiftthey always used "old" hardware07:18
nipuLheh, that takes me back. the old dx407:18
treachmmh, "sport model", featuring the pci bus. :p07:19
treachonly 8MB ram originally though.07:19
RedShiftman computers sucked in those days07:19
treachno, they didn't.07:19
treachbut windows did..07:20
treachwin 3.11... ugh07:20
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RedShifttreach: obviously you haven't felt the pain of configuring a motherboard with a few ISA expansions cards using jumpers...07:20
tilmanfighting with autoexec.bat and config.sys to get anough memory doom was fun07:20
treachof course I have.07:20
treachtilman: that was interesting. :P07:20
aonheh07:21
treachEMS/XMS07:21
treachetc.07:21
RedShiftwell these days we just plug in an expansion card it usually just works07:21
RedShiftI call that luxury07:21
treachI hated plug and pray.07:21
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aonwhat, there's no crux group on facebook07:22
aon:D07:22
treachconfiguring your cards wasn't that hard, and then it worked.07:22
RedShiftoh and linux versus ISA cards07:22
RedShiftnow that was just plain fun :D07:22
treachActually I never had any problems with that.07:22
RedShiftreally?07:22
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treachI guess I was fortunate with my hardware07:22
teKaah..  memmaker :))07:23
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treach3c509+sb1607:23
RedShiftI can remember myself writing down IO addresses, IRQ lines, etc...07:23
treachthat was what I had on isa.07:23
mxqsorry for interfering, but i have question: i'm going to burn an iso on dvd+rw dl, will nautius cd-burner handle it?07:23
tilmanteK: that was a program that configured autoexec/config.sys for you, wasn't it?07:23
teKtreach: i have this (PCI) combo in this box right here..07:23
bjohan__mxq, i did so a while a go07:23
treachteK: heh07:23
teKtilman: think so, too. Just saw my brother cursing 'bout it07:23
tilman:D07:23
teKPCs were so much more fun in those days07:24
mxqbjohan__: thx07:24
treachyes, and people *had* to learn about computers to get stuff working07:24
rehabdollmxq: dvd+rw-tools and growisofs will handle it, dunno about the gnome crap07:24
RedShiftI disagree07:24
teKwe still use those machines (100MHz _maximum_) with DOS in our _productive_ environment07:24
RedShift(not about the people had to learn part though)07:24
treachteK: I imagine.07:25
teKwe're an industrial company making >30 Million Euro a year07:25
treachwell, DOS is stable.07:25
teKit's fun repairing those.07:25
aonit's clearly because you use dos07:25
treachI've seen system use DOS on bigger companies than that07:26
aonand anyway, siemens uses pirated winrar :)07:26
teKit's controlling large production facilities..07:26
tilmanaon: source? :D07:26
teKwe use Siemens' WinCC, too. jfyi07:26
treachyes, I've seen DOS controlling huge ass packaging machinery07:26
treach4.x something iirc07:27
tilmanomg why cpu fan is making me go crazy07:27
* tilman turns on some noise07:27
teKwe had to replace a broken box with an AMD with 800MHz. slowdown.exe helped as the machine would  go crazy otherwise07:27
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RedShiftROFL07:27
treachhaha07:27
RedShiftI remember those TSR's07:27
rehabdollcute07:28
RedShiftor how were they called07:28
teKwe use DOS 6.22 (luxury is relative, isn't it?)07:28
teKthis ^- present tense makes me go nuts07:28
RedShiftyou know, you could have used linux in those days too07:29
treachI don't mind DOS, as such07:29
treachit's small, light and pretty stable.07:29
jjpkDOS at least worked well back in the day.07:29
treachyeah.07:29
jjpkWindows came about and the problems rolled right in.07:29
treach"progman.exe has preformed an illigal exception error, Ignore, Abort, Cancel" :S07:30
treach*illegal*07:30
RedShiftthere were a number of operating systems back then, you weren't limited to ms-dos or windows07:30
* tilman rolls eyes07:31
treachweeeellll...07:31
treachI don't seem to be stuck on windows now either :D07:31
teKthere is exactly one guy (who will retire because of his _age_) that can support us regarding issues with thos DOS programs....07:31
jjpkThere are options even today, the thing is one dominates them all. ;)07:31
jjpktreach: indeed. oh noes! something is wrong, we're not using m$ products.07:32
jjpkThey've failed to conquer it all.07:32
treachnot yet.07:32
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treachthey'll keep trying.07:32
jjpkI would hope people are beginning to open their eyes.07:33
treachif by no other means by making it illegal/impossible to use anything else07:33
jjpkApple is beginning to chomp on m$'s market share, but it still is just a drop in the bucket.07:33
jjpkToo bad it's a rowdy and noisy fanboy club.07:34
treachthe only thing I've noticed so far is that you less and less frequently run into one of those stupid "IE only" sites07:34
treachall systems have users like that.07:34
treachSUN fanboys are just as bad.07:35
tilmanosx fanboys can be very annoying these days :/07:35
treachIf you listen to them Solaris is all that and some more, with no weaknesses or shortcomings07:35
jjpkSolaris = the pinnacle OS? :D07:37
treachyes.07:37
RedShiftbah, all you unix freaks07:38
RedShiftreal men use NT4 on alpha07:38
RedShift*g*07:38
treachah, yes.07:38
treachlooking at that explorer window all day.07:38
treachvery productive07:38
jjpkBest flaming, useless piece of software ever bought! Makes you feel fuzzy and productive inside.07:39
jjpkYet without accomplishing anything.07:39
treachwell, there was win nt 4 for mips as well.07:40
treachI suppose that was even more useless07:40
treachNever heard of *anyone* using that07:41
RedShiftwell07:41
jjpkI bet it was another m$ jewel. ;)07:41
RedShiftI never knew they released nt4 for mips07:41
treachhave a look at the cd, the archs are all there07:41
treachalpha, mips, i386, and some more I think. Don't remember though.07:42
* RedShift goes and find an nt4 cdrom or images07:43
RedShiftwell I'll be dammed07:43
RedShiftI've never noticed that07:43
RedShiftalpha, i386, mips and power pc07:44
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RedShiftit *is* true what they say, you learn something new every day07:45
treachsparc, i860 and i960 too, apparently07:46
RedShifteven on sundays, the sabbath07:46
RedShift:D07:46
RedShifttreach: hmm I don't see those on the cdrom07:46
jjpkPff, another mind washed by religious dogma.07:46
treachRedShift: not sure it's there. they might have been dropped earlier07:47
treachlike at 3.51 or something07:47
RedShiftah07:47
tilmanRedShift: sabbath is saturday i think :p07:48
treachjobba på sabbathen och du har sabbat den. :>07:48
treach"work on the sabbath and you've ruined it". Sorry :)07:49
jjpkSuperstition sunday? Nice.07:50
treachhardly, just a play on words :)07:51
RedShifthttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Microsoft_Windows.svg07:52
treachsigh, there should be a season on lawyers, and people who think they are.08:06
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Romsterwhen i did work expeareance ya had to get a mimium of $25 each of the 2 weeks.08:53
treach*That* was in the era when people (in general) could spell. ;>08:56
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tilmanwonder whether i'll try xfs again09:15
tilmanseems they fixed the NUL bug :D09:15
tilmanhttp://oss.sgi.com/projects/xfs/faq.html#nulls09:16
treachsupposedly that depends on how much you care about your files :)09:16
tilmani'm thinking it might okay to try for media partitions09:17
tilmanwrite once, read often09:17
treachtrue, and big files too, in general.09:17
tilmanyep09:17
treachhowever, if power goes..09:17
tilmanxfs can use larger block sizes than ext309:17
tilman-> less waste09:17
treachRomster: does avifile *really* depend on sqlite3...?09:22
treachnm. found out how it got there.09:23
Romsterhmm no09:29
Romsterhow would squite get there...09:29
RedShiftI'm still fond of reiserfs09:30
treachRomster: via libsndfile09:30
treachnot sure that needs sqlite3 either though :p09:30
treach<- JFS user09:31
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treachhey, if it's good enough for IBM's AIX, it's good enough for me. :P09:31
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treachreiser is on life-support - barely09:33
treachxfs is ugly09:33
treachext3 sucks09:33
jjpkext3 too slow and conservative eh? :D09:33
treachit also causes *way* too much disk access09:33
treachext4 will probably be more of the same, so no hope there.09:34
treachI suppose I'll have a look at btrfs when it's due09:34
jjpkGive it a few more years. :p09:35
treachwell, they're approaching v 1.0 pretty rapidly09:35
treachshould be quite useable some time next year, if they go on at the present pace.09:35
jjpkI'm impressed.09:36
treachapparently the main developer is hosting his home dir on it now.09:36
tilmanthat's a good sign09:36
treachpresumeably with a lot of back up though. :P09:36
jjpkI might be lulled by ext4 and the other linux filesystems and how they are developed. :p09:36
jjpktilman: yeah, it seems positive.09:36
RedShiftBeFS ftw :p09:36
treachtilman: yeah. seems to be a few well known people involved as well there.09:37
treachChristopher Hellweig for instance09:37
treachI think Jens Axboe provided some patches recently as well09:37
tilmanhttp://oss.oracle.com/pipermail/btrfs-devel/2007-October/000259.html09:38
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treachmmmh, I'm subscribed. :)09:39
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tilman:D09:39
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Romsterlibsndfile09:40
Romsteryeah i'm just looking now hrmmm09:40
Romsterdunno about that09:40
Romsterlibsndfile checking for SQLITE3... yes09:40
Romstersupsoe it should be a Nice to have.09:41
Romsteri'm using ext309:41
Romsterit's reliable09:41
Romsterturn the last modifyed time off09:41
Romsternoatime09:41
Romsterbtrfs is that a equivelent of zfs?09:41
treachwell, not exactly.09:42
Romsterif anyone wants the patch for new firefox i'll email it to ya i've given it too jaguar already viar email09:42
tilmanno afaik09:42
treachlol09:42
treach"jaguar"09:42
tilmanlol, jaguar09:42
Romsteri forget his nick spelling.09:43
Romsterso maybe i'll call him matt or jag.09:44
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alanciohey people10:53
alanciodoes anybody have a problem with konqueror's plugins hanging at 100% cpu?10:53
treachyes, it does happen from time to time10:53
treachmostly caused by flash iirc10:54
alanciowell, I found the problem and how to fix it10:54
treachwhee. :P10:54
treach"don't use it" ? :D10:54
alancioI sent it already to the port maintainer, but I think he is on vacation10:54
alanciono, its a bug with gtk, I patched it and it works now10:54
treachmmh there's a swedish film called "the involuntary golfer", I feel a bit like "the involuntary firefoxer" sometimes. :p10:56
alanciothat means that you use firefox against your own will?10:56
treachmh, rather, "lacking a better alternative"10:57
alanciothe only thing I hate about firefox is the GTK stuff, ie: the file dialogs10:58
treachbloated, slow and buggy.10:58
treachafk, dinner10:59
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tilmankonqeror is affected by a bug in gtk?11:06
alancioyes11:07
alanciobecause the plugins use gtk, and the plugin loader uses them too11:08
alanciouses *it*11:08
tilmanah11:08
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mxqhaha hamilton is 1711:22
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alanciois anybody here from brazil?11:25
majykno but I did stay at a holiday inn express last night11:25
majykok, sorry bad humor11:25
alancioI wouldn't call that humor :P11:26
majykprobably because you haven't seen the holiday inn commercials11:26
majykI think it's hilarious11:26
treach"holiday inn express, when you're in a hurry"11:26
alancioand what does that have to do with Brazil?11:26
majykalancio, you'd have to see the commercials to appreciate the humor11:27
majyksorry11:27
treachabout as much as the price of bacon in timbuktu11:27
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alanciook I just saw the commercial11:41
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treach"You say goodbye, I say hello" \16:28
treach"I don't know why, I say hello" :p16:28
morlenxusoO16:29
morlenxusDo you know if there is a faster way getting the group / owner of a file?16:29
RedShiftI'm thinking of purchasing a /0 subnet16:30
RedShiftobjections? *g*16:30
treachyeah, A) that's not a subnet, B) I don't think they are for sale :P16:35
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RedShifttreach: well, technically according to CIDR it is a subnet16:36
treachsource?16:36
treachafaik CIDR has nothing to do with subnets, but rather the bitmask to determine the adress space.16:37
treach"technically speaking" :>16:37
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RedShiftyes16:42
RedShiftand that bitmask is called a subnet16:42
RedShiftand technically, 0.0.0.0 is still bitmask16:42
treachoh, and here I was thinking the subnet was the adress space you got for host with a given *netmask*16:45
treachsilly me16:45
RedShiftwell16:46
RedShiftnow I'm confused16:46
treachgood. :D16:46
RedShiftso the subnet would be 0.0.0.0/0, and the netmask would be 0.0.0.016:46
* RedShift breaks off his attempt at a joke16:47
RedShiftall hands abandon ship :(16:47
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treachah16:56
treachops. dammit16:56
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minuxHello guys18:10
minuxAll other iptables/linux channels are either extremely busy or extremely idle so I'll try in here (since I am running Crux)18:10
minuxWhat module do I need to load to get CONNMARK in iptables?18:10
minuxAh, it's only available in >=2.6.12, I'm running 2.6.6.18:14
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majykjaeger, you need to check your website because I think something's broke, I can no longer get to your blog... I get a default wordpress page20:51
majykError establishing a database connection20:51
majykthat's what I get20:51
majykby the way I will continue to thank you for the updated Crux ISO's20:52
majykthank you for providing them20:52
jaegerdb must be broken, thanks for the heads up20:58
jaegerand thanks for the feedback20:58
majykno problem jaeger, you've done me some favors in the past like provided me with Gnome 2.18 binaries that you compiled and I am eternally grateful! I really appreciate the work that you do on Crux.20:59
jaegerok, the db is fixed... it somehow forgot my password21:01
jaegerthanks :)21:01
majyk=)21:01
majykyep, it works =)21:01
majykw00t21:01
majykjaeger, do you have the kernel config for your updated ISO somewhere on your website for download?21:02
majykI am thinking of producing a ISO that has some modifications that I like21:02
jaegerit's in the svn, sure21:11
jaegerhttps://secure.morpheus.net/trac/crux-iso/browser/trunk/kernel/linux-2.6.22.1.config21:12
majykjaeger, thank you!21:17
jaegerwelcome21:18
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Romstergah ck4up....23:20
RomsterUnfortunately these changes result in partly different md5 sums for the fetched pages. It's recommended to run ck4up version 0.2.3 before upgrading to the new version.23:21
Romsternow i read that AFTER runing ck4up...23:21
Romsterbet there is no revert command...23:21
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