IRC Logs for #crux Thursday, 2008-02-07

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pitillogood morning01:22
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sepenmorning02:04
namenloswhat do you guys think: http://www.sti2.at/~richardp/crux/redundant.html02:07
teKcould you quote or link the arguments you argue against?02:10
namenlosteK: what do you mean?02:11
namenlosthis is only about my opinion whether to keep redundant dependencies, or not02:12
namenlossince i saw some git commits where they where deleted...02:12
teKnamenlos: oh ok. It sounds like there were heavy discussions in IRC or on the ML :)02:16
teKbut I get your point02:16
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treachnamenlos: There was another pheomomena that brought this up in the first place iirc, "cyclic dependencies"02:17
treachor something like that02:17
namenlostreach: is in on the ml? or in the wiki?02:18
treachI think it's in the ml archives, buried some place.02:18
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treachnot sure though02:18
treachI wish cptn was around, he could probably explain it right away.02:19
namenlosyes, but if there are cyclic dependencies, then the programmers of the program failed (imho)02:19
treachwell, things rarely are that simple.02:20
namenlostreach: i know, what you mean with cyclic: a dependes on b and b depends on a...02:20
treachmaybe these people aren't even aware that they are doing this.02:20
treachit might be a -> b -> c -> a or something02:20
namenlostreach: sure, i was only too lazy to type ;)02:21
treachwell, that's why I disagree with your "failed" statement.02:21
namenlosand if the developers don't know it, it could be reported to them, so that they can fix it.02:21
namenlosok, sorry, sometimes i don't find the correct words in english :(02:22
treachmaybe. it's a messy situation anyway, and not a lot of good options02:22
treachno problem, I'm not a native english speake either. :)02:22
treach*speaker02:23
namenlosnevermind. maybe we could discuss it and/or put it in the wiki somewhere on crux.nu02:28
namenlosanyone ever tried to compile dvtm?02:28
namenlosi got following pkgfile: http://rafb.net/p/vOHi3f22.html and get http://rafb.net/p/okWpkN48.html02:28
namenlosam i mistaken somewhere?02:28
pitillonamenlos, for example, you see fine hal port? checking that url you explained the point of hard to keep track of dependencies for a port wich depends in another person port. Do you think is a bad way to advise a port maintainer to tell him to be more explicit for his port dependencies?02:32
namenlospitillo: i tried to say, that imho it is less work for a maintainer to list all dependencies his port uses directly. to avoid possible future trouble.02:36
namenlospitillo: if i understood your question correctly.02:37
sepennamenlos, Im reading it now, sounds interesting02:40
namenlossepen: thx02:40
sepenbut Im not according to this02:40
namenlossepen: ok, what do you think?02:41
pitillonamenlos, think about the base, if you have a stable base, you dont need to put all deps.02:41
sepenIm don't like redundant deps02:41
sepenmany other distros failed due to redundant deps02:42
sepenimho crux is the perfect distro to avoid this inconveniences02:42
namenloswhy did they fail?02:43
namenlosatm i can't think of a scenario, where this could cause problems.02:44
pitillonamenlos, I think the "problem" is listing all deps while really with a stable and well done base (ports base) you don´t need to put all deps for a port, because the base is well done.02:45
namenlospitillo: you mean the core ports?02:46
pitilloare core ports listed on dependencies?02:46
namenlosimho somewhere in the handbook is written, that they shouldn't be.02:46
pitillothat´s correct, then I don´t mean them02:47
namenlossince they're always there, there is no need to list them.02:47
pitilloI mean the base: ports wich are down at port´s tree02:47
sepennamenlos, findredundantdeps(1) - display unnecessary dependencies of a port02:48
sepenwritten by Han and Johannes02:48
pitilloif you keep them clean, upper ports doesn´t need to list all deps02:48
pitilloit´s a bit hard for me to explain the point, but like all said, this isn´t a real problem, it´s only an issue02:48
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sepen.... Findredundantdeps analyzes the dependencies of the given port displaying the dependencies that are already contained in the depending port ...02:48
namenlossure, if you run a depinst, they'll be installed02:48
namenlosit is about maintaining the ports.02:49
namenlosbecause i don't want to keep track of all the ports i am relying on, if they still depend on the ports i depend directly02:49
Romstercore ports are only listed if they are linked too.02:50
pitillobtw, I think can be good and nice to keep them simplier. In a comunity must be comunication between maintainers and redundant deps must be a point of union between maintainers.02:50
pitillotrying to keep all ports cleant and simple, and looking for the best way to avoid repeating info02:51
Romsteri'm gonna be moving all dependencys to a # Optional: metatag and only list dependencys that are required to build a port.02:51
pitillobtw this is only my opinion and I find interesting see other people´s point of view (they open mind and another ways to think, like I said yesterday)02:52
namenlospitillo: imho repeating info isn't a bad thing, if it then is handeled correctly (discarded)02:52
Romsterminimal dependencys is a nice feature of crux.02:52
sepennamenlos, how many deps then you need for x related ports?02:52
Romsterabout 5 for some of the more complex ones.02:53
sepena big list of xorg dependencies in each port ?02:53
pitillonamenlos, repeating info isn´t a good way to keep it simple, or at least I see it in that way02:53
sepenyeah02:53
sepenkiss!!!02:53
Romstersepen, it's mainly xorg-libx1102:53
pitillonamenlos, can be more confortable to a port maintainer, but I think isn´t a good way to keep ports clean02:53
pitillokeep ports and port´s tree clean02:53
Romsterlook at the xine-lib port it lists a few xorg-* ports.02:53
Romsterthat's about as many as you might see on a bigger program.02:54
Romsterlisting xorg is a bad idea for dependencys IMO.02:54
pitilloRomster, +1 til_man told me 2 days ago02:54
pitilloRomster, and with the tools we have in crux, we can make a good and clean dependencie list02:54
Romsteri'm guilty of doing it but as a quick fix.02:54
namenlosi never managed a x ports (since most of the time i am in a terminal)02:55
Romsteri've since changed to xorg-libx11 then add in anything that is missing after.02:55
pitillo(time to take a bite, I will read you in a few minutes, sorry)02:55
Romsterby using my safe-build wrapper to chroot, but others might have thre own way to find the links.02:55
pitilloand thank you for your opinions and points of view :)02:55
Romster:)02:56
namenlosi think we got 2 different opinions about clean dependencies:02:56
Romsteri actually have a bit of sloppyness in my ports in contrib i'm going to be cleaning up more.02:56
treachone additional point, is; Does dependencies really change that often that this really is an issue?02:56
namenlos1) no redundant ports and 2) no unneccessary ports02:56
Romsteryeah i'm guilty on 202:57
namenlostreach: hopefully not, but this doesn't have to be the case.02:57
Romsterthing is what i use might not be what someone else uses.02:57
Romsterand not listing anything that's required could be a pain too.02:57
Romsteroh need port x then install port x then recompile what package that can use port x?02:58
treachRomster: I think you're looking for a word, *something* :)02:58
sepensorry, I can't stay here now, my boss at office its near, and I should work, hehe02:58
Romsterthis is where the Optional/Nice to have: metatag comes into effect.02:58
sepenI'll read the log later02:58
Romsterk02:58
* Romster looks at treach 02:59
treachI had a hard time parsing that sentence. :)02:59
Romster'thing*02:59
Romsteris a shortend version of something02:59
treachRomster: no, I meant where you used "anything".02:59
treachsent me off on a wild goose chase. :)03:00
Romsterhmm oh my bad grammar...03:00
Romstermy idea is depends on: should only list required to build ports. and Optional (renamed from 'Nice to have' too long and is stupid name IMO) ports listed on # Optional: and support for the Optional metatag added to prt-get to say what packages should be recompiled when you add in port X that say port Y and Z can use.03:03
treachah, ronny's back. :>03:03
Romsterminimal installation, no junk you wont use and if you do require some port support it's not a bitch to add it in.03:04
* Romster slaps treach 03:04
treachuh?03:04
treachwtf?03:04
Romsteryou were refering to me no?03:04
Romstergasbaging ideas.03:04
* treach gives Romster a good old trashing03:04
namenlosRomster: imho optional ports could be listed in the README. e.g. lighttpd changes some of it's behaviour if you got tre installed03:04
treachRomster: no, I was refering to the ml03:04
Romsterbah..03:05
Romsteri misinterpeted that then..03:05
treachindeed03:05
Romstersorry..03:05
treachI was actually agreeing with you to some extent, but it'd would be hell to implement "optionals"03:05
treachsince the footprint idea goes completely out the window then.ä03:06
SiFuhhello03:06
SiFuh:-P03:06
treach03:06
Romsteri had a solution to that but it's complex..03:06
Romsterso scrap footprints.03:06
treachbad idea IMO03:06
namenlosmaybe some flavour style like openbsd :D03:06
treachwtf, flavours again?03:07
Romsterkeep them there but change missing files to a error and new files to a warning.03:07
SiFuh<-- in malaysia03:07
SiFuhfinally03:07
* treach sandbags namenlos 03:07
treach;)03:07
SiFuh:-) treach next stop mongolia hehe03:07
namenlostreach: different configurations of a port03:07
treachSiFuh: good luck then. :)03:07
namenlostreach: in openbsd it is called flavours03:07
treachnamenlos: yeah, we've had it up before :)03:07
Romsteroptional's wouldn't be hard just find all the link flags and look though configure --help03:08
treachand it was considered non-KISS, bad and unhealthy. :)03:08
namenlostreach: i know. i was refering to it as a possible solution03:08
Romsterbit of work for packaging yes but it's a once off thing.03:08
Romsteri hate diferent configurations eg use flags.03:09
Romsteri got stung with fftw so i'm so gonna pass on that.03:09
Romstercan't check a port if you have to check it say 50 times with all combinations.03:09
Romsterjust to verify there is no issues.03:10
Romsterwant a diferent configuration add a port to your local colection.03:10
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Romsterthat is the crux way (tm)03:10
Romsteri'm seeing KISS is a very good thng and is a strong point of crux.03:11
Romsterlets try to keep it that way.03:11
Romsterthing*03:11
treachyeah, a local override port is much easier to deal with than some polymorphic port with N derivates..03:12
Romsteryep03:15
RomsterAnd who knows what combinations can cause problems and are port maintainers goign to test every combination? Hell no.03:16
Romstergoing*03:17
RomsterIMO adding in support for a optional port is as far as that should go.03:17
Romsterexample qt3/403:17
Romsterfor rights configure does most as auto, if program x is present to use.03:18
treachsure, and that is already causing problems somtimes.03:18
Romstertrue.03:19
Romsterunless that is seperated out as qt3-mysql like libxml2 and libxml2-python03:19
Romsterprogram-wrapper might be the better way to go.03:20
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Romsterbut whos gonna figure out how to seperate some of the bigger ports that are complex.03:21
Romsterbuild both and do a rm on files that conflict? like i've done on the ggg add on compilers?03:22
Romstercould be hidden issues doing that too.03:22
Romsterand isn't port-wraper starting to go the port-wrapper-dev way of such distros as debian, i know we have devalopment installed being a source based distro but the fact of port-wraper is heading that same path.03:25
Romstermultiple ports of diferent configurations is a messy idea i've thought of too..03:25
Romsterwrapper idea seems to be the most logical but it's a bitch on very complex ports.03:26
Romsterhmm looks like i'm ranting to myself again03:27
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pitilloummm I don´t like the idea of implementing an additional "optional" metatag, I prefer the "nice to have" or better keep them in a redme file. But that is only my impression.03:43
pitillokeeping real needed dependencies for a "run time" dependencie is the best way to go, imo, keeping out the "building"deps.03:44
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DarkNekroshi everybody ;)03:48
Romsterpitillo, but how would you know what port could take advanage of port x if there is no listing of it in the ports that can use port x?03:53
Romsterdoes the user have to do guess work or know how every program works and what each uses.03:54
Romsterhi DarkNekros03:54
Romsterhttp://fukung.net/v/6895/4Chan20071004183257.gif <- trippy03:54
pitilloRomster, ummmm taking a base that you only need to list required run time deps, the user must know what has it installed in his system, and think about if h wants really add a function provided by another package, wich isn´t really needed but can add new functions to it, in this way, he must overwrite the footprint provided by the maintainer03:57
pitilloI see this way the simplier, you can read the diff between port´s footprint and your system´s generated footprint, and verify that you are adding NEW functionalities to a port03:59
pitilloafter checking this, you can always update the footprint, btw I am thinking in the next ports -u and the fact that it will overwrite the system´s footprint04:00
pitilloand you can lose info related to files installed into your system, and then, you will lose the track of those files04:00
pitilloI think I am making a mess myself, sorry04:01
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Romsterhmm04:29
Romsteronly way to avoid footprint miss matches is to build with only the same dependencys as the maintainer of the port did.04:30
Romsteror mess with configure and disable alot of stuff, which isn't a wise idea.04:30
pitillothat´s true romster, but it´s hard to build ports vs maintainer´s ports, because a good port must be built inside a clean install (using your chroot script for example). I am thinking about this.04:34
Romsterthat's why i created it and too find missing deps.04:36
Romsteri'll get to work on that script more too sometime.04:36
pitilloI think that script must be in some kind of versioning control and reviewed by more people04:38
Romsterit is but it's in with my ports. i've been thinking of seperating it though to it's own cms04:38
pitillolike I told you, I find it very interesting and confortable to make a good enviroment for maintainers and to keep real and good ports04:38
Romsterhttp://hg.shortcircuit.net.au/romster/shortlog04:39
Romsterit's in amonst that.04:39
pitilloI prefer the idea of getting overviewed by other people to check opinions and may be improvements on in, and a good version control program to develop this script can be good (better than use a develop or virtual machine)04:40
Romsterhttp://hg.shortcircuit.net.au/romster/log/fb1346bfb3c9/ports/safe-build/safe-build.in04:41
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Romsterhmm i thought i did more revisons than that.04:41
pitilloI think can be good for all to make a separate repo/cms for it04:41
Romsteryeah i'll get it moved to it's own hg versioning.04:42
Romsteri really need todo more to it befor ei get opinions on it.04:42
pitilloI am sure you did, your first script I saw long time ago was very little, and it grow day by day04:42
Romsteri know of some minor issues and it defently needs a huge cleanup of code.04:42
Romsteryeah i don't think i versioned it untill later on.04:43
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pitilloRomster, I am agreed with that sentence, but if someone else check it, may be you can take help from him, to make a clean up or make it better if it´s possible04:43
Romsteri'd like to fix some isues i'm aware of and review it all then make a note on the ML to have it reviewed for improbments.04:44
Romsterimprovments.04:44
Romsterpitillo, have you done anymore to yours?04:44
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Romsterreally not sure if mine is over complicated04:47
pitilloRomster, nop, I was using a develop machine to build ports. Took it out because it growed and I must do lot of things by hand (and I didn´t like this). I looked at yours and seems more automated and with more future than mine04:49
pitilloRomster, I think it must be a bit complicated, think in what are you doing and try to do it as simplier as you can (and it will be complicated due to its functionallity)04:50
Romsterah04:50
Romsteryes i'm trying ot make it as genetic and configerable so it just works.04:50
Romsterto*04:50
pitillounderstood your point04:51
pitilloI think keeping joined all maintainers work can be good, but can be worse in the sense of that all maintainer has his own way to make/build/test ports04:52
pitillolike I said, his own way in the sense of a dedicated computer/enviroment/virtualmachine04:53
Romstertrue, the point is i'll consider all options but i'd have the right to accept or decline just like anyone else.04:53
pitilloanother good point can be share this ways to do this kind of work, to let new porters/maintainers learn how people work04:53
Romsteri like sane and simple, but not at the cost of simplicity and automation.04:54
pitilloand try to keep good/stable work in all crux´s ports branches04:54
treach"Error: Logical error on line 1.04:54
treach"04:54
Romsterwhat?04:55
treach"i like sane and simple, but not at the cost of simplicity"04:55
treachuh?04:55
Romsteri've already tosed some juink out of it but there is more.04:55
Romsterah maybe i need to reword that.04:55
Romsterwhat i ment is not so simple it's more effort to use04:55
Romsterwant it to do it's job out of the box with sane defaults.04:56
pitilloI think he likes sane and simple way over simplicity of the tool used (I understood this)04:56
pitilloI think my english level is getting worse day by day04:57
Romsterlike not having todo a heap of manual steps or having to edit a stack of config lines to even be able to use it.04:57
treachI like simple tools. Clubs for instance. The crunchy noise on inpact is highly satisfying. :)04:57
Romsterlol.04:57
Romsteri don't think my english is improving much.04:57
Romsteri feel like i degrade english of others <<04:58
treachRomster: not to be an ass, but your english is a minor problem compared to your logic.04:58
Romsterhmm.04:58
pitilloI don´t know which is that "clubs" tool04:58
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Romsterclubs as in golc clubs.04:58
Romstergolf*04:58
treachyou're not alone with the logic problem though.04:59
pitillosorry, I dodn´t understand the meaning of that sentence04:59
pitillowhat do you mean treach?04:59
Romsteranother words the sound of hiting a golf ball with a golf club.04:59
Romstermy logic is messed up?04:59
treachyes, from time to time.05:00
Romsteri try to think how a computer things when i program. what little of programming it i know.05:00
Romsters/things/thinks05:00
Romstermy problem is to many ideas.05:01
pitillothen try to organize them05:01
Romsterand trying to put that as consise logic and reasoning.05:01
Romsterand try to think of all possable outcomes and decisions.05:02
Romsteri might of f*%ked my brain over the past 10 or so years i think.05:03
Romsterdrugs and too much booze partys.05:03
pitilloI think talking about your ideas with others can be a good way to understand them better. And contrast them to other´s opinion can give you hints about how to organize them, learn about your errors, look for other ways...05:03
treachWhat I'm thinking of, is the quite common tendency to confuse correlation and causation.05:03
pitillobut seems that isn´t very good see talking here05:04
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pitilloor at least that is my imression until a few weeks since today05:04
pitillomay be that is the reason why people stay here without saying anything05:05
treachpitillo: talking is no problem, but unless you're consistent, congruent and coherent, people aren't very likely to listen.05:06
pitilloscared to be bad see by others? scared to explain an opinion, an idea, on objection?05:06
Romsterpitillo, you need to fix your isn´t to isn't05:06
pitilloRomster, isn't, is that better?05:07
Romsteryes <<05:07
pitillotreach, do you mean all I said isn' t consistent and congruent, isn't it?05:07
pitillodo you mean our logic is broken in this sense?05:08
treachnono, I menant "you" in a general sense05:08
treachmeant*05:09
pitillotreach, ok, understood my fisrt Q then, what about the second?05:09
pitilloI understood it related to our talk05:09
Romstertreach, for someone that dosn't have english as there native language you sure are better than my english and i'm native english speaker, that's quite sad.05:11
pitilloRomster, omg, I can't belive you are an english native speaker xD05:11
Romsteryes i know.. it's shameful.05:12
pitillodon't take it in a bad sense eh, I thought you have another native language (may be I am accoustomed with a british english)05:13
pitillobtw sometimes is hard to follow your english, but reading your next sentece can be a clue to understand the last05:13
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Romsterpitillo, your grammar needs working on to be more fluent too.05:14
Romstersentances don't always flow.05:15
Romsterbut your spelling is better than mine.05:15
pitilloyeah, grammar and vocabulary too. But I am here to learn, not only crux related, I hope one day I can talk it fluent and better.05:15
Romsterit's a common thing for bad grammar for non-english speakers.05:16
Romstervocabulary for bigger words, i'm not too bad for a wide vocabulary, but i can't spell most of them soi avoid using alot, but i can speak them and know the meaning.05:17
pitilloyeah, a problem extended for all languages05:17
Romsteranyways i seem to have a logic issue i need to work on.05:17
Romstertreach, is it more of not thinking of if-then-else and i need more reasoning?05:17
pitilloI have lot of issues to work on :)05:17
treachpitillo: is it you who confuse accord and agree?05:18
treachor is it sepen?05:18
treachMan I can never keep you to straight. Sorry. :/05:18
treachs/to/two05:18
pitilloummm I think was sepen05:18
treachok05:19
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treachheh, speak of the devil05:19
pitillotreach, , don't worry. I think with our poor english level it´s easy to confuse us.05:19
pitillojaajajaja05:19
Romsterhow can ya confuse accord and agree?05:20
pitillospeak or speaking?05:20
Romsterlol05:20
treachRomster: they are speaking spanish05:20
treachif french is anything to go by, I can understand the mistake05:20
Romsteraccording to my bad logic i agree it's not too concise.05:21
treach"'d accord" would be "agreed" in french, iirc05:21
Romster<<05:21
Romsterah05:21
Romstertranslation issues.05:21
pitilloummm I know the meaning of agree and accord sounds like a spanish word05:21
Romsternot so much sepen's fault.05:21
pitillotreach, true, in spanish "de acuerdo" = agree in english05:21
treachno.  as I said, I'm not blaming him05:21
Romsterit's the language translation.05:22
pitilloI think we are sorry about english translations and happy to know you are patiente with us, giving us corrections too05:22
Romsterpitillo, treach is it true that a diferent language makes you think in a completely diferent way?05:22
treachof course.05:23
Romsterthought as much.05:23
pitilloRomster, yeah, I think we move by "sound" and this is a bad way to go, but I think sometimes, and more when learning, it´s hard to avoid it05:23
sepenRomster, what about me?05:24
Romsteri try to think by picturing objects and break them down to there simpilist parts.05:25
treachsepen: nothing special. just discussing lingustic mistakes.05:25
pitillosepen, talking about our low languages skill :P05:25
sepenajaj05:25
sepenje suis d'accord05:25
Romsterlanguage conversions losing the meaing or wrongly assuming a words meaning.05:25
Romstermeaning*05:26
treach"false friend"05:26
sepenyeah, I have sometimes problem when trying to explain something in eglish05:26
pitillobut I think it's a natural problem when all people start learning a language05:26
Romsterso it's the point that a diferent language you need to think diferently that that's the hardist part.05:27
Romsterand my grammar and english dosn't help and being a Aussie with slang words too also dosn't help.05:28
Romstereveryone seems to think Australins rape the english language with slang words.05:28
Romsteri've actually found other varriations of english that have stupid not very described words that should be avoided.05:30
Romsteri think every language has those.05:30
Romsterand using them bad words makes one think diferently.05:30
Romsterbad/slang05:31
sepenRomster, are you prepared to see how Pedrosa wins this year in motogp05:31
sepenhehehe05:31
Romsteri haven't followed it but sure, love motor sport.05:31
Romsterneed for speed <305:33
Romsterwonder if i can find a good source to retrain my mind with better logic.05:34
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treachRomster: find some book on the topic.05:46
Romsteryeah i'm googling about looking i see there is quite a few but i arn't sure what spefic area i should be focusing on. i mean i can do electronics falt find fix design build, some programing too. so it's more reasoning logic than boolean or something?05:50
treachyeah.05:52
Romsterk thanks treach.05:58
Romsterquite amazing i can do so much and be like i am.05:58
treachRomster: here is a good place to start http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logical_fallacy05:59
Romstertreach, ta, reading. ever seen http://romster.mypersonality.info/ ? and my personality type is good for making a point too :/06:06
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Romsterthis reading and understanding is gonna take ages.06:28
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treachrofl. "ENTPs are logical, innovative, curious and downright inventive." Did you cheat Romster? :D06:34
Romsternope. <<06:34
Romsteri answered each question as closely as i could.06:34
treachjust considering my complaints about the logic, I mean06:34
treachthe other, I don't know about06:34
Romsteri'm inventive, my logic is limited to boolean06:35
treachheh06:35
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Romsteri see my are in logic of reasonong is flawed.06:35
Romsterarea*06:36
Romsterreasoning*06:36
RomsterProof by verbosity <- sounds too familer.06:36
treachheh06:36
treachwell, I hope you find it helpful.06:37
Romsterso do i.06:37
Romsterand give you a less of a headache <<06:38
treachit's not just me.06:38
treachI think people in general are grateful if they can be spared nonsense arguments.06:39
Romstertrue06:39
treach"INTPs are relatively easy-going and amenable to most anything until their principles are violated, about which they may become outspoken and inflexible."06:50
* treach feels like an carbon copy06:51
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thrice`treach: ok,I finally tried dwm, and must admit it's not too bad :-)07:04
treachno, it's really nice. The only problem is that it doesn't go too well with applications that like to live in the systray, etc.07:06
thrice`treach: actually, the problem I had was trying to patch config-def.h (or whatever the file name is).  when I patch with mine, it fails to compile07:08
thrice`http://rafb.net/p/ZgoCCK41.html07:08
thrice`that's what I had - anything stick out?07:08
thrice`er, scratch that.  first try today, and it works07:09
treachtbh I don't bother with a port for it.07:10
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thrice`yeah...might not be as easy.  I figure I only need a *few* apps that will launch from shortcuts, the rest will be OK from term07:10
* treach sighs and heads down to the basement, laundry time07:12
thrice`treach: do you set a wallpaper from ~/.xinitrc ?07:15
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namenlosthrice`: line 20 is there a ',' missing?07:31
namenlosimho same to 26 and 2707:32
treachthrice`: yeah. feh07:32
namenlosdwm works here fine, because most of the apps i am unsing are coneole apps ;)07:33
thrice`treach: ah, do you call that before or after the WM starts?07:34
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thrice`like exec dwm; sleep 2; feh --bg-scale wallpaper.png07:34
namenlosthrice`: fyi http://rafb.net/p/4m60h428.html07:35
thrice`namenlos: ah, good idea.  I think I stole your DWM port, too :-)07:36
namenloshm, maybe making it checking for a custom config on the system wouldn't be a bad idea ;)07:37
treachthrice`: heh, no like feh --bg-center <some_image> \ exec /usr/local/bin/dwm  :P07:40
treachxsetroot -cursor_name left_ptr is a good idea to include as well.07:41
thrice`what does that do, exactly?07:41
thrice`the one thing I still have to do is change modkey, so that irssi alt+NUM works properly07:42
treachit sets the mouse pointer to something other than "X" :)07:45
thrice`huh...didn't notice that.  musta been more sleepy than I thought07:45
treachwell, maybe you set your mouse pointer some other place.07:46
thrice`not on purpose, anyways07:46
treachor mayb dwm fixes it anyway, not sure tbh07:47
treachI don't think so07:47
treachthough07:47
thrice`heh...could be.  i'll have to look later07:47
treachmeanwhile you can use "<esc> num" in irssi instead of <alt> num :)07:48
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tilmanthrice`: /usr/etc/xdg/openbox/menu.xml :)09:52
thrice`tilman: I eventually gave up and used obmenu09:54
tilman:D09:54
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mike_ktilman: could you or someone in charge please annonce ml/edit wiki regarding current core/opt team members?10:01
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tilmanmike_k: right, i wanted to do that10:02
thrice`tilman: btw, new openbox is out10:04
Romstertreach, INTP... that would explain alot <<10:05
tilmanthrice`: oh, thanks10:06
Romsterthrice`, i set a wall paper by "display -window root  ~/.backgrounds/bg &"10:06
Romsterdidn't know feh can do that..10:07
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treachusing imagemagick to set your wallpaper is *somewhat* an overkill10:18
mike_kmaxus: 'vremena goda', today, 19:30 EET. jazzz10:19
treachthrice`: You could try this menu.xml too, if you like. ;D http://icculus.org/openbox/index.php/Help:ClaysViStyleSpatial10:22
Romsterisn't depending on python still overkill <<10:27
treachuh? What depends on python?10:29
Romsterfeh or does it *checks again*10:31
Romsterbah where did i get that idea from..10:31
Romsternevermind..10:31
thrice`:-)10:32
* Romster goes to make coffee.10:34
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Romsterthanks treach feh works great for that, even thogh i have imagemagick installed i'll use feh to set the background.10:57
trimoin10:57
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Romsterhi tri11:02
Romsterhmm notice it dosn't change the background of the systemtray icons11:03
Romsterand xchat just did when i changed my virtual desktop11:03
sepenRomster, I fixed some issues and removed some duplicated lines, etc, this is the new report for core http://mikeux.dyndns.org/crux/logs/repoverify-core.log11:09
sepennice to have your opinion11:10
Romstersepen, k i've already started to clean my private repo too.11:12
sepenhmmm yeah I also need too11:12
Romstersepen, could you add a new check in for verion tags so they don't include _ or - example boost port?11:15
sepenI lost a lot of time doing this script, and now is the moment to start my personal cleanup11:15
Romsterah11:15
sepenRomster, what?11:15
Romsteri've let my personal repo get messy.11:16
Romsterbeen mroe of keep contrib clean.11:16
Romsterand my personal repo got neglected.11:16
sepenyeah, what do you think about mailing this to ML's contrib11:16
sepen?11:16
Romsteryeah be an idea.11:17
sepenyou can find the 'repoverify' sources in my crux-scripts-sepen port on my private rpo11:17
sepen*repo11:17
RomsterHTTP/1.1 302 Found <- can you supress that.11:17
sepenfeel free to patch and etc etc11:18
sepenRomster, yeah11:18
Romsterand there needs to be a whitelist like automake needs them 2 files.11:19
Romsteri'm pretty sure.11:19
sepenthat script is too easy at this moment11:20
sepensure11:21
Romsteryeah but it's improving.11:21
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Romstermy opinion but 'HTTP/1.1 301 Moved Permanently' should be a warning not a error.11:25
Romsteras in say some function becomes depreciated, they warn it's so. but it isn't a error.11:25
Romsterthat's sommething with pkg-utils that should be changed imo.11:25
Romsterhmm notice it's the same host that does that.11:27
Romstermust be one of them mirror links it redirects to the mirror or something.11:27
Romstersepen, and maybe sed the /usr/ports/core/openssh lines to core/openssh11:29
sepen1 seg11:32
sepenreading11:32
sepenRomster, the new report shows INFO instead of ERROR11:33
sepenand yeah, Im according to replace /usr/ports/core/foo for core/foo11:33
sepensounds good that changes for me11:33
Romsterdo note these are only my opinions11:33
sepenalso Im working now on this redireccion made by the mirror11:34
sepenyeah Im according with your idea11:34
Romsterand if you're going to type "Im" you may aswell capitalise the first letter of the sentance too, and it's "I'm". or just use all lower case "i'm"11:37
Romsterdoin im or Im is like thinking of IM = instant messagner11:38
treachrofl, Romster's gramar skool11:38
Romsterdoin'*11:38
Romstertreach, i know i arn't good but i can pick simple faults too.11:38
tilmanmmh11:39
tilmanfreedos boots much faster than crux11:39
treachI wonder why. ;)11:40
surrounderkik11:41
RomsterO_o11:43
Romstertreach, you disagree with me?11:43
treachabout what? Your useage of "aren't"?11:44
treachI disagree with lots of stuff, so you have to be more specific. ;)11:45
Romsterlol..11:47
Romsterwith me corecting common mistakes that i myself have issues with common english stuff.11:47
treachdon't take it personal, but it feels a bit backwards, especially when your corrections are full of errors themselves, albeit of a different kind. :D11:49
Romsterdamn.11:50
Romsteri mean well, but i guess i shouldn't help with that stuff i have problems with aswell.11:50
Romsteraren't = are not11:51
tilmanORLY11:51
Romstermissing o so the ' is added.11:51
treachyes, I know..11:51
tilmanthe point is you spelled it wrong11:51
tilmangaaaaaaaah11:51
treachRomster: the problem is that it's wrong..11:51
* thrice` wonders why this is a big deal11:51
treachIt's "I'm not", not "I aren't"11:52
tilmanthrice`: probably because we're pedantic and not native speakers? ;)11:52
Romsterarn't is too a word, http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/aren%27t see.11:54
tilman*e*11:54
Romstererr "aren't"11:54
Romstermy typing that time.11:55
treachyes. but not together with *I*11:55
treach_we_ aren't are totaly ok.11:55
treachbut _I_ are is nuts11:55
Romsteroh yes that's bad grammar.11:55
Romsteri see your point.11:56
treachthank you.11:56
Romsterwasn't quite sure what you were seeing wrong.11:56
thrice`we aren't IS totally OK11:56
tilmanheh11:56
treachthrice`: ok, multitasking here, my bad11:57
Romsterthrice`, apart from that dosn't make alot of sense. :P11:57
thrice`=)11:57
sepenain't sound horrible for me11:57
Romstermissing coma <<11:57
treach*doesn't ;D11:57
* treach takes cover11:57
teKlanguage nazis *whistle*11:57
Romsterbah11:57
Romsterenglish nazis teK *gags*11:58
treachisn't that comma btw? Coma isn't something you'd miss I presume. ;D11:58
sepenwell time to going to home12:02
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Romsterah yes "comma"12:02
Romstertime to be going home.12:03
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Romstereven sepen omits words.12:03
tilmanhttp://files.code-monkey.de/picard-headesk.jpg12:03
Romsterlol12:03
Romsteri really wonder, am i that amusing?12:04
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ryuoRomster?12:05
tilmanRomster: no, i'm just tired12:05
treachtilman: hah, that one is familiar. ;D12:06
ryuothe recent news with TWC is making me consider changing ISPs12:06
jtnlhi12:07
Romsterhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_Zodiac12:12
Romsteri'm a snake and fire type lol.12:12
Romsterhi ryuo12:12
ryuomeh... TWC seems to be toying with the idea of bandwidth caps for its residential broadband12:12
ryuoi'd rather switch to a slower ISP that has no bandwidth caps12:13
ryuoif this plan goes through12:13
Romsterah..12:14
Romsteryeah i have a not so fast conection but it's unlimited with no throttling.12:14
ryuoreminds of the bull**** cellphone companies pull12:15
ryuome*12:15
teKtilman: code-monkey is your server?12:15
Romsterthis new 3g network and the closure of cdma then i bet later the gsm network will be shutdown too. well there extending the cdma network shutdown time bacause of coverage issues.12:15
tilmanteK: yes12:16
teKi see. It is. Would you mind telling me were you got the bluemilk mime icons of?12:16
ryuoglad my current ISP has no contract12:16
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tilmanteK: i modified them12:16
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ryuoif their plan goes through i can pack my bags quickly ;)12:16
tilmantry http://files.code-monkey.de/www-icons/./www-icons/bluemilk-mime.tar.bz212:16
ryuoi feel hesitant to use DSL though...12:17
teK40412:17
ryuousually they have contracts, if the service ends up being suck ass i can't switch anytime soon12:17
tilmanhttp://files.code-monkey.de/bluemilk-mime.tar.bz212:18
Romsterryuo, dsl works fine for me.12:18
Romsterbut it's the YMMV though.12:18
teKdanke!12:20
ryuoYMMV?12:20
ryuohrm this isp for my area uses "wireless" to transmit service12:21
ryuoseems expensive for the speed you get...12:22
ryuo$45 a month for 768 kbps download?12:22
ryuo>_<12:22
Romsterymmv = your milage may vary12:26
Romsteri pay $70aud for a 512/128 ADSL.12:27
Romstera month.12:27
Romsterryuo, and from what trech said earlier i found out feh can set the background image too.12:29
Romsterfeh --bg-center file.png12:29
Romsteralthough i'm using --bg-scale12:30
* Romster goes to make coffee.12:30
treachThe image already is 1680x1050, no reason to scale, crop or do anything else funky. :)12:33
joacimI pay 80 AUD for 26000/1200 ADSL =)12:34
thrice`wow!12:38
thrice`I pay $45 for 5.0mBit down =)12:38
Romstertreach, not the image i got isn't the right size for my 1280x1024 size screen12:40
Romster1152x... and the two comon 800x600 and 1024x76812:40
thrice`Romster: I think --bg-scale will do it12:40
Romsteractally no i'm on 1152 or something bah i rememebr i can't use 1280 since the refresh rate is too low to be anygood on my eyes12:41
Romsteryeah i'm using --bg-scale12:41
Romsterand i i picked the bigist res image as scaling down is better than up.12:41
thrice`ah....sorry, didn't scroll up.  I only saw your --bg-center mention12:42
Romsterag12:42
Romsterah*12:42
Romsteri could convert them all with imagemagick but i don't see much point when --bg-scale does that.12:43
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Romsteryeah i looked at the man page12:43
Romsterand spoted that.12:43
Romsterat first i tryed the -g option.12:43
Romsterdidn't work then i spoted the scale.12:44
thrice`ah12:44
Romsterall i need now is some nice way to change the background on my pekwm menu or something.12:44
Romstermake a short script to dynamicly load the menu.12:45
Romsterone thing pekwm dosn't have the option for a diferent background for other virtual desktops.12:46
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Romsteri'm guessing the wm's would useally call the program to change the background?12:46
Romsteron desktop change.12:46
Romsteror did they use another method.12:46
tilmanfirefox just went nuts and allocated lots of memory12:46
tilmanmade my box swap (i have 4 gb of ram)12:47
thrice`tilman: that's surprising ?12:47
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Romsterlol... and you said firefox hasn't acted up on you.12:47
tilmanthis was the first time i think12:47
Romsteromg.12:47
Romsteri've had memory leaks but not past 2GB swap with a 1,280MB ram system.12:47
tilmansomehow X allocated ~600 mb of ram12:48
tilmanguess firefox leaked a few pixmaps12:48
tilmanwell that was fun12:49
tilmanmmh12:50
treachtilman: btw, did you see my message about webkit? :p12:50
Romstera few...12:50
tilmancould it be that my graphics card has 512 mb ram?12:50
Romsterwasn't webkit like some large mb archive?12:50
tilmanno, 25612:50
tilmani just restarted x12:50
tilmanand top says its VIRT area is ~600 mb12:51
Romsterare you on a bnc or some text console for irc?12:51
Romsteror independent x for each screen.12:52
Romsteri know you got a dual head setup12:52
tilmanjust one x server12:52
treachtop is nuts wrt memory consumtion12:52
tilmani think my firefox profile is busted12:52
Romsteri prefer htop and ps12:52
tilmaneven if i start a new session everything goes into crawl mode immediately12:53
Romsterdang.12:53
tilmantreach: right, but i dunno where those 600 mb come from12:53
tilman256 mb vram, ok. but the rest? ._o12:53
Romstermv the profile and try again i guess12:53
Romsterlol12:53
treachtop says ff uses 137MB here, and that X uses 861.. (VIRT)12:53
treachwhich is crazy12:54
* tilman builds xrestop12:54
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tilmanmmmmh!12:54
tilmanno12:54
aon:G12:55
tilmanstarting firefox once with a fresh profile fixed it12:56
tilmanie i'm now back on my old profile, and it's working12:56
Romsterstrange.12:57
Romsteri tend to think it's wise to backup the profile.12:57
Romsterfirefox is a huge arse codebase browser, why it even needs it's own libs than to use the ones on the system even anoyes me.12:58
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treachRomster: well, it's small compared to webkit. :p12:59
treach2 2 3 MB, bz2, no less..12:59
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Romsteromg..13:03
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Romstercould get that under 200 with lzma << but still what the hell is in that tarball...13:03
ryuopron?13:14
ryuo:p13:14
ryuoif you think firefox is bloated, try seamonkey. its a bit less bloated I believe13:19
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ryuowould be nice if firefox/seamonkey could use qt4 instead of just gtk on linux13:21
predatorfreakryuo: There was a qt3 port of Firefox at one point, but then it's maintainer dropped it.13:22
ryuooh.13:22
ryuoit would be nice if you wanted to use KDE only and no GTK type stuff13:22
ryuokonqueror isn't much of a web browser13:22
ryuounless 4.0 changed that13:22
predatorfreakryuo: I dunno? I don't use KDE :P13:24
ryuoi used to13:25
ryuoi used opera because there wasnt a good FOSS browser for qt313:25
ryuoman i think fox could be a good lightweight toolkit for regular use if there were more apps based on...13:26
joacimfirefox just pretend to be gtk afaik13:26
joacimit doesnt really fit in a gtk environment13:26
predatorfreakjoacim: It renders through GTK, but all it's actual interface is coded through XUL, last I checked13:30
joacimkk13:31
joacimstill dont look right =)13:31
ryuoi think epiphany is more integrated with gtk than firefox is13:31
trianybody have already looked at modari ?13:32
tilmanmidori :D13:33
triah yeah..13:36
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Romsteronly looked at the web page but got scared when treach said that webkit is 232MB bz2 archive.13:37
tripuh 232 mb ?13:38
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Romsterah 223MB sorry typed it wrong.13:39
Romsterlol scared him off irc.13:39
Romsterunless most of webkit is junk and can be discarded?13:39
Romsterand tarball a subset of it.13:40
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predatorfreakRomster: The nightly tarball is 8MB13:47
RomsterO_o13:52
Romsterwhere did treach get 223MB from then?13:52
predatorfreakI dunno.13:53
predatorfreakAsk treach :P13:54
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rawimagemagick in opt/ is outdated15:16
rawand additionally you can't install it, because the link is a 40415:16
rawguess upstream removed the package already15:16
treach-rw-r--r-- 1 treach users 223M Feb  5 00:27 /home/treach/verkstad/WebKit-SVN-source.tar.bz215:28
treachRomster: ^15:28
Romsterraw http://romster.shortcircuit.net.au/crux/opt/imagemagick/15:29
Romsterah svn source so what is predatorfreak saying 8MB?15:30
Romster<predatorfreak> Romster: The nightly tarball is 8MB15:30
rawRomster: that's outdated, too, 10 is the most recent15:30
Romsterwtf i updated it a day or 2 ago...15:30
rawRomster: but I just edited the pkgfile of the opt version15:30
rehabdollthere's a new imagemagick release every week or so15:31
Romsterbah i betetr run ck4up again15:31
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Romstercool new firefox is out.15:33
Romsteroi 7-10 is old15:36
Romster8-5 is the new one.15:36
Romsterand i got 6.3.8-3 atm.15:37
ryuoso is 3.0 finally released?15:37
ryuoor is it still beta15:37
Romsterfirefox3 is still beta the last time i checked.15:38
Romstertalking about firefox2 is now at 2.0.0.1215:38
Romsterraw ^15:38
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andariusgreetings and salutations16:58
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nipuLgah, transparent proxies are a mixed blessing20:18
nipuLit's caching some buggy js code and i can't renew it from my browser20:19
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Romsteropen the js file directly20:33
Romsterand do a force refresh on that..20:36
Romstermight do it20:36
nipuLi'm just clearing the cache on the proxy server20:37
Romstermaybe the timeout and check for a new version should be shortend.20:39
nipuLyeah20:42
nipuLslow arse computer, it needs a serious upgrade20:43
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Romsterah21:53
andariusrahhh21:53
Romsterheh21:54
andariusso how is life today ?21:54
Romsterah ok.21:56
Romsternothing any diferent thant he day before.21:56
andariusmmm, i have that problem (or blessing) as well21:57
Romsterdon't we all.21:57
andariuswell perhaps some day some of us will break the cycle ;)22:04
Romsterheh22:06
andariusi at least get to look forward to the week of the 20th :)22:07
Romsteryour birthday or something?22:07
andariusnahh, get to go to vegas on the company dime, stay in a nice hotel and hang out at IWCE for 3 days :)22:07
Romsterneat22:08
andariuslooks to be very promising22:08
Romsterbe a cool trip.22:09
andariusaye, i really hope so22:10
Romsteryeah, wish i could go on a trip like that.22:16
andariusthe only reason i get to is it is work related. we have pretty much the largest booth there22:17
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Romsterlucky.22:20
andariusi am off to wash and sleep. later gents22:43
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