IRC Logs for #crux Saturday, 2008-03-01

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cruxbot[core] pkgutils: updated to
Romsterwonder what the changes are.03:27
tilmani wonder whether we agreed on not announcing pkgutils changes03:28
tilmanbut i think it's a good idea anyway03:28
Romstereh that didn't make sense.03:29
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cruxbot[opt] fontforge: build with --without-freetype-src03:35
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cruxbot[contrib] qt4: 4.3.2 -> 4.3.403:59
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Romsterwhy the hell is thunderbird at when is out also SECURITY ALERT
holger_I have a question about Crux: Is it FSH confirm?04:31
Romstereh FSH?04:31
holger_File System Hierarchy04:32
Romsterah it keeps to the standards i think.04:32
tilmanholger_: i don't even know. it doesn't do anything weird anyway :D04:32
tilmanholger_: we don't use libexec, but i don't remember whether the FSH mentions it04:33
Rotwangi think not always04:33
Romsterwe don't use /usr/local though04:33
Rotwangmans shoul go to /usr/share/man04:33
Rotwangbut they usualy go to /usr/man04:33
Romsterand we have /etc/rc.d instead of the /etc/init.d04:33
holger_yes i know. But why?04:34
holger_For professional use it is better to go confirm with the FSH, isn`t it?04:39
holger_imho :-)04:39
tilmanholger_: is there a concrete issue you have with this? or just a general observation?04:42
tilmanwe will likely fix the man pages paths some time ;)04:42
tilmansince autotools uses /usr/share/man by default these days as well04:43
holger_I`m setting up serveral linux servers for companies. and most of them want a Distribution who going along with a standard.04:44
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holger_I testet many distributions, but I come back to Crux. No problems with weired paths or missing libs and so on. Famous distribution, best choice I think:-)04:46
tilmanRomster: the fsh doesn't even mention init.d...04:47
predatorfreaktilman: That's the LHS or some shit.04:47
tilmanlsb also says you need to be able to install RPMs iirc04:48
Rotwangholger_: you may always edit Pkgfiles by hand ;] so they will met the standards04:48
predatorfreaktilman: Yeah... sorry no.04:48
holger_And I think if Crux would be confirm for example with the lsb (linux standard base) much more companys would use them.04:48
predatorfreakholger_: CRUX isn't supposed to be a big iron system...04:50
holger_RPM? Really? F**k04:50
predatorfreakI see CRUX more along the lines of being a hobbyist distro, but fuck if I know what the intended market it.04:50
predatorfreak-it +is04:50
tilmansoftware installation blurb ^^^^^^04:50
tilmani guess we need to find out whether pkgadd/pkgrm are lsb-conforming04:52
predatorfreaktilman: CRUX works, don't go overboard killing it for LSB compliance :P04:53
tilmanholger_: i don't think we'd be willing to jump through hoops just to be more accepted by companies04:53
tilmanholger_: but if there are easy fixes we could apply to get there, i think we'd do it04:53
holger_Ok, i think your are right:-)04:54
predatorfreaktilman: If I see "Sorry, we're replacing pkgutils with rpm because making pkgutils LSB conforming is too much of a bitch."04:54
predatorfreakI'm getting my axe :P04:54
tilmanobviously that's not going to happen :p04:54
clickoncepredatorfreak: Agreed.04:54
predatorfreaktilman: Never know :)04:54
tilmanyes you do know04:54
tilmannot going to happen !!111oneone ;)04:54
predatorfreaktilman: You might have a concussion, wake up in a hospital04:55
predatorfreakand think "mm, CRUX could really use RPM."04:55
tilmanmaybe, but the other developers and the crux users won't let me do it04:56
predatorfreaktilman: The other 2 developers? :P04:56
tilmanno, the other 7 (?, or so) developers04:57
predatorfreakThere's more than 3 core developers who COULD actually change pkgutils? o.O04:58
tilmanit's a distributed scm. anyone can change it04:58
tilmanquestion is whether the masses will accept a pkgutils tarball from some random crazy guy ;)04:58
predatorfreaktilman: Exactly.04:59
predatorfreakOnly the core developers can actually change that, merge it to core04:59
predatorfreakand expect people to go along with it.04:59
tilmanmy point is that we'll obviously listen to the masses04:59
tilmanbefore pulling any crazy stunts05:00
predatorfreaktilman: Anyway, on a slightly different note, any news on whether or not me and Romster can expect our respective patches for pkgmk to go upstream anytime soon? XD05:01
tilmanyours being sha256?05:01
tilmanwhat's romster's patch?05:01
predatorfreakthe warn-on-new-files05:01
predatorfreakand the lzma decompress support patch05:02
tilmanjesus fucking christ, i've told him how we will handle lzma05:02
tilmanlike 5 times05:02
predatorfreakNever heard it.05:02
tilmanpredatorfreak: lzmautils is currently rewritten with a nice library05:02
tilmanonce it's released, i'll bring lzma support to libarchive05:02
tilman-> integration in pkgutils will be teh trivial05:02
predatorfreaktilman: Actually, I mean his patch that adds it to the noticed tarball types05:03
tilmani know05:03
predatorfreakHow does libarchive supporting it trickle into pkgmk acknowledging that it can decompress such files?05:03
tilmanit will just work05:04
clickonce"it will just work" sounds worryingly alot like Windows...05:05
predatorfreak... Uhh, unpack_source.05:05
predatorfreakfor FILE in BLAH BLAH05:05
predatorfreakIt identifies by extension05:05
predatorfreakto tell tar how to decompress tar.BLAH files05:05
tilmanwe'll switch that to just call bsdtar05:05
tilmanbsdtar will recognize the archive format on its own05:06
tilmanthis will also remove the unzip dependency btw :)05:06
predatorfreakWell, GNU tar notices bzip2/gzip now, so the tar.gz/bz2 could just be one thing now05:06
predatorfreakBut anyway, about SHA256 now that I understand the lzma situation? XD05:07
tilmani cannot possibly promise anything without discussing this with the others05:07
tilmanjue is away for some weeks05:07
predatorfreakWell I already know what jue is going to say...05:07
tilmanso you want me to ignore his strong objection?05:08
clickonceHow active is Per Liden with CRUX development today_05:08
tilmanthat would be obviously wrong.05:08
tilmanclickonce: not at all05:08
predatorfreaktilman: No, but Jesus Christ, it's horribly biased towards "MD5 works and isn't broken."05:08
clickonceHmm, okay.05:08
predatorfreakand I horribly defeated the isn't broken part.05:08
tilmanyes, that's why we need to talk05:09
predatorfreakWell, holler if the patch needs any sort of modification for acceptance and I'll do it.05:09
tilmanwill do :)05:09
tilmani wonder whether it would be a good idea to store the file size in the port, too05:10
predatorfreakWant me to rig up a patch? :D05:11
tilmanmaybe .manifest:05:11
predatorfreaktilman: Sounds too Gentoo-like :P05:11
tilmanok, need another name then05:11
Romsteryes that was before tilman ...05:11
Romsternot after.05:11
Romsterand i knwo so i haven't done anything more on lzma.05:12
Romsterbut the warn on new files patch.05:12
predatorfreaktilman: If you want, I can attempt to throw together a manifest or whatever thingie patch.05:12
* clickonce wants a --build-only to pkgmk05:12
predatorfreakclickonce: That's how it works by default...05:12
clickonceI did add it on my own, but I'd hate to change the pkgmk script everytime it's updated.05:12
Romsterthen some person asked for a return number for prt-get to show that there was new files added.05:12
tilmanpredatorfreak: unless you're really bored, i think we should wait until we've discussed the approach we'll tak05:12
predatorfreaktilman: Call me when you decide :P05:13
tilmanpredatorfreak: we'll have an irc meeting for it, i think05:13
predatorfreakI don't mind hacking on pkgmk, it's fun :D05:13
tilmanso if you can attend that would be good05:13
tilmanwhat timezone are you in?05:13
tilmanor where do you live?05:13
tilmanah right05:13
predatorfreak(It's 6AM here XD)05:13
predatorfreakSometimes I sleep, other times I'm like Romster and feed on the flesh of mortals to sustain my lifeforce :)05:14
clickonceSweet jesus, the ThinkPad X300 has arrived!05:14
predatorfreaktilman: I'll continue stalking the mailing list for the announcement :P05:15
tilmani think jue will be away for at least one week05:15
tilmanmaybe 205:15
tilmanRomster: where's your warn-on-new-files patch again?05:16
predatorfreaktilman: Flyspray :P05:16
tilmanunfortunately that shit is a bit tricky to get right ;)05:16
tilmank thx05:16
predatorfreak <-- cptn rose that point05:16
predatorfreakBut me and Romster noticed something: Nothing else signals on warnings.05:17
predatorfreakand it's pretty much impossible to send signals without dying in shell script.05:17
Romsterso why should i be the one to add in signals and figure up a table..05:17
Romsterform one ML entry05:17
predatorfreak(except that functions can return signals, but that's only in-script)05:17
clickonceWrite pkgutils in C ;)05:18
predatorfreakclickonce: It's in C++.05:18
tilmanpkgutils6 is in c05:18
predatorfreakpkgmk is just pretty-much-impossible to do right in C without being too-bloody-complex.05:18
tilmannot finished yet though05:18
clickonceAh, I see. :)05:19
Romsterthere is return, but only way is like i told you predatorfreak is to set a var and then exit with that var.05:19
tilmanpkgmk will stay a shell script05:19
predatorfreakRomster: return doesn't return the value immediately.05:19
Romsteri vote all downlaoding be moved to pkgdl and that be in c and use libcurl.05:19
predatorfreakand it's intended for functions and loops and shit05:20
predatorfreakNot signalling.05:20
predatorfreakwell, signalling from top-level.05:20
Romsterpredatorfreak, yeah thats why ya would need to set a EXIT=<number> then later on if [ -z $EXIT ] && exit05:20
Romsterexit 1*05:21
predatorfreakexit $BLAH05:21
Romsterelse exit $EXIT05:21
Romsteror something like that.05:21
Romsteronly waht i think it would work.05:21
predatorfreakYeah, unless there's a magical signal passer hidden in bash..05:22
Romsterand that lzma thing in flyspray was BEFORE you explind to me the situration tilman so dont' have a crack at me about that.05:22
tilmani'm not cracking about you05:22
tilmani was cracking at predatorfreak05:22
tilmandidn't know he didn't know the story05:22
Romsteryou were indirectly.05:22
tilmansrsly :P05:23
tilmanor was i?05:23
Romsterhah humor.05:23
tilmanRomster: didn't mean to crack at you anyway :)05:23
Romsterthanks and yes i realse what your doing.05:23
predatorfreaktilman: Cracking at me only works on the internet.05:23
predatorfreakDon't suggest you try it in real life :D05:24
tilmani don't even know the exact meaning of 'to crack at somebody'05:24
* Romster senses gayness.05:24
Romsteror maybe to have a go at somebody, as in to attack or abuse05:25
predatorfreakRomster: Second answer is correct.05:25
Romsterdarn thunderbird having fun trying to compile
Romsterdies in the configure script lol...05:27
predatorfreakThis is why I use claws-mail!05:28
clickonceOutlook! ;)05:28
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predatorfreakmm, time to stop not-sleeping and sleep, night/morning.05:40
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clickonceI hate Flash programming. It's the most boring thing even invented.07:00
clickonceCleaning toilets is far more interesting.07:00
clickonceWhy the hell did I take this job?07:01
* clickonce goes to look at some ThinkPad X300 pictures07:04
clickonceAlways makes me happy.07:04
joacimthe intel metro looks nice =)07:04
clickonceSweet :)07:05
clickonceBut nah, the X300 makes me happier. It's everythin I've ever wanted.07:11
clickonceA widescreen ThinkPad X-series with touchpad and DVD.07:12
clickonce(And it has such a nice design)07:12
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cruxbot[contrib] libsigc++: 2.1.1 -> 2.2.109:36
clickonceSwedish schools are crap.09:43
clickonceThey still teach <body bgcolor="" and <font color="" in the webdesign courses.09:43
clickonceAnd, the first assignement was to make a webpage with frames...09:43
Romsterclass,id or throw in a stype=09:44
clickonceYes, exactly.09:44
clickonceFortunately I'm not taking the class. :)09:44
Romsteri'd tell them were to stick it.09:44
clickonce<style ...>body { background: ...; }</style>09:44
Romsternexzt they'll say to use tables for layout?09:44
clickonceor at least <body style="">09:44
clickonceI haven't seen any <div> tag so far...09:45
Romsteri rest my case.09:45
clickonceYes, they use tables.09:45
clickonce"It is hard to exactly say where text is to be wrapped and where other content should be placed. Using tables..."09:46
Romsterand it's hard to edit it later if you wanna move content around.09:48
Romsterspan and div tags are the way to go thesedays.09:49
Romstertables are so 90's09:49
Romsterwhen css wasn't so good.09:49
clickonceYeah, but div's suck too, well, they are sweet, but the browsers implementation of them suck.09:49
Romsterbrowsers fault then <<09:50
clickonceThey interpret width: differently... so to get it to look the same on IE and Firefox you have to nest div's09:51
jjpkA simple term, the lowest common denominator applies to your self-proclaimed shit schools.09:51
jjpkThey are designed to get those people's feet wet who have no idea about anything.09:52
jjpkBesides, you have to start from something simple and build up from there.09:53
clickonceTrue, but not from the wrong base.09:54
clickonceBeginning with tables for layout is wrong either way.09:54
jjpkGreat assumption there: old = BAD! ALWAYS09:55
Romsterthe box model on IE6 sucks.09:55
RomsterIE7 is ok09:56
clickoncejjpk: Tables for layout is explicitly discourage by the w3c09:56
Romsterand what the bloody hell is this 'almsot standards mode'09:56
clickonceTables should be use for data, which is what tables are to be used for. Not design.09:56
Romsterstupid if you ask me09:56
Romsteryep tabular data not layout.09:56
Romsterbut it's best to do it right the first time and not teach them the "wrong" way.09:57
clickonceYeah, so, I told her to make the current assignment using div's.09:58
Romsterif i did that course i'd be going what is this shit this is so 90's when css sucked this is not the 90's css has improved. mroe to the point browsers have improved.09:58
clickonceWell, I'm considering writing a letter to her teacher. :)09:59
Romsteri would.09:59
clickonceIf he fails her, I'm going to shut up him completely.09:59
clickonceHe's going to have to eat HTML 4.01 tables for a week.09:59
Romsterand quote sites like w3school and htmlgoodies too.09:59
clickonceAnd the w3c!09:59
Romstergood luck for a noob reading the w3c10:00
clickonceHe's a teacher, he should be able to read the w3c.10:00
Romsterya need like ages to understand that.10:00
Romsterheh if he is doing tables for layout i doubt he knows about the w3c.10:00
clickonceHe's using tables to indent text ;) (I.e. the first line in a paragraph)10:01
Romsteromg there is a css propertie for that i think10:02
clickonceYes, there is. :)10:02
Romsterwell i knwo one that does the first letter too.10:02
Romsteri can't remember them all but a quick look in the css guide is handy.10:03
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jjpkI doubt the average webdesigner knows them either, especially if they use a GUI editor/generator in windows. ;)10:05
RedShiftI hate webdesign, and I hate writing code for websites10:05
RedShiftI don't know why, but I hate it10:05
RedShiftif there's one thing I would like to avoid like hell, it's creating websites10:06
RomsterRedShift, for good reason supporting IE6 is hell.10:07
joacimI like the coding and working with layout10:07
joacimbut hate chosing colors and making graphics10:07
Romsteri don't like the graphics picking colours isn't too bad but not my favourite.10:08
Romstermessing with javascript and the DOM too is a bit of a pain.10:08
Romsterah well that's the joys of doing web sites.10:09
joacimjavascript? never bothered with that10:10
Romsteryou're missing out then.10:10
Romsterbut i hate sites that require javascript i only use it to enhance but not be anoying.10:11 is nice :)10:11
joacimto enhance is ok =)10:11
joacimbut most sites do it to annoy10:11
clickonceI try to keep the JS and Flash usage to a minimum,.10:12
Romsteryeah i don't10:12
Romsteri don't even use flash10:12
Romsterthat is anoying.10:12
joacimpage says i need the latest version of flash10:12
clickonceRomster: Some clients want flash ;) They think it's so uber cool.10:12
Romsterscrew that <<10:12
Romsterif they want it i'll get someone else todo the flash for me.10:13
clickonceRomster: The first assignement she made was describing herselft. Number three was to take a screenshot of when downloading some HTML editing software.10:22
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Romsterwhat happend to using notepad..10:32
clickonceI told her to use it ;)10:32
clickoncenotpad that is10:33
clickonceI first showed her Vim but she didn't like it.10:33
Romsterpretty plane but does the job.10:33
Romsterhehe vim does take some time to get used too.10:33
clickonceYeah ;)10:34
clickonceEmacs is nice too.10:34
Romsteractually i hadn't tryed that.10:35
jjpkI would rather use an emacs editor-only clone than emacs itself.10:35
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clickonceIt's wonderful, it was the first editor I came into contact with.10:35
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Romsteri think nano was the first editor i used.10:40
joacimgedit, then vim =10:41
jjpkvenom incarnate. rofl10:47
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RedShifthey anyone got a round-robin algorithm with priority?12:19
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Rotwanganyone from sveden? ;]13:25
jaegerlove that sign13:26
treachI don't quite think you need to understand swedish to get the picture, :P13:26
jaegerthough I didn't see any of that particular one in stockholm13:27
treachI thought only that kind of signs were available in the US13:27
aonwell, i recall at least one instance where that happened in finland13:27
jaegertreach: there are far weirder ones in japan, in my opinion13:28
jaegerthough yes, we have plenty of rediculous ones here13:28
treachhehe, ok, I haven't seen anything from japan, so I wouldn't know. :)13:28
aonthere you go13:29
treachcool, better sign13:29
aonyeah, it seems a bit unlikely that you get stuck with your head up in the ceiling like that13:30
treachaon: apparently it has happened here as well, 2 2004, and 4 in total, at that date.13:32
treach (swedish, don't bother if you can't read it)13:32
treach lol13:36
jjpkThose bins are dangerous indeed.13:39
tilmanbork bork bork13:44
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RedShifthey anyone got a round-robin algorithm with priority?13:50
RedShiftsomething like that, but something more readable for those who are bad at maths13:50
tilman"dual boot vista/xp/linux"13:58
treachI'd call that... "trial booting" ..? :p13:58
tilmanmaybe they meant "pick two" though13:59
Rotwangor triple13:59
tilmanbut i prefer to think they cannot count!13:59
treachRotwang: but that way you lose the joke. :p13:59
Rotwangah... ;]13:59
RedShiftthis channel is full of programmers? :\14:13
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trihm there is no pysqlite port ?14:41
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mike_anyone used crux with 256M RAM?14:42
mike_ok cuz my slackware is too bloated (uses 243M)14:43
Rotwangme too14:43
mike_thank i'll burn it14:44
teK2x zsh, 1x w3m, 1x mutt, 1x cmus +1x ssh +1x sshd == ~28MB14:44
* treach doubts the dist have that much with it to do.14:45
teKmike_: is this without buffers/cache?14:45
teKtreach: ACK14:45
teKexcept it's SuSE or so *g*14:45
mike_i used free on the command line14:45
treach-/+ buffers/cache:        280       1733  <- 64 bit fedora :P14:45
teK             total       used       free     shared    buffers     cached14:46
teKMem:           248        244          4          0          5        21114:46
teK-/+ buffers/cache:         28        22014:46
mike_-/+ buffers/cache:     137488     11200814:46
treachteK: well, I'm using kde to top it off. :D14:46
teKthe first figure is *actual* amount of RAM needed14:46
teKtreach: no X here. (AMD k6-3 400MHz)14:47
mike_ok well maybe it's the hardware (p3m) y it's freezin up14:47
treachguessed so, with that number14:47
teKbut there's no problem with RAM if X (and FF..) are running14:47
treachmike_: tried memtest?14:47
teKI don't even have swap14:47
mike_my wife loves KDE - i'm compiling e1714:48
treachyou probably should14:48
treachif it freezes up, you might have bad ram14:48
mike_ok that's usually on the grub command line right?14:48
mike_thanks i will14:49
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rehabdollbad ram is quite common15:35
joacimmine was incompatible with my chipset15:42
joacimmy computer froze every night at 030015:43
jjpkon the dot. :D15:53
jjpk0300: time to check out. *crash*15:53
Rotwang0300 at last everyone is asleep so i can watch my pr0n! *crash*15:54
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andariusgreetings and salutations15:58
thrice`hi andarius15:58
andariusgreetings thrice`15:58
tilmangreetings and salutations and whatnot15:58
Rotwanganyone knows some good accountancy tutorial?16:03
Rotwangbut preferably in polish ;]16:03
tilmanhehe, i just thought RedShift asked that question16:03
tilmanswitching from round robin questions to book keeping16:03
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jjpkAccounting... *shivers*16:48
tilmanto quote this famous movie: the horror... the horror...16:50
jjpkThat subject is right up there with law studies that are exact, yet shady at the same time.16:51
jjpkWithout those properties I would think those two professions wouldn't be as popular as they are. ;)16:57
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Romsterafternoon all.22:14
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andariusgreetings and salutations again :)22:51
andariusi just watched a movie22:52
andariusnow to do something productive :)22:52
Romstersomething productive i just ate.22:55
Romsterand checked for port updates and there is none22:55
andariusi hope it was tastey22:55
Romsterleft over pizza i didn't eat last night.22:56
andariushmm, that is normaly tasty unless you did not eat it for lack of tastyness22:56
Romsternah i got full last night <<22:56
Romsterit was damn taste i was really full.22:57
andariusgood deal22:57
andariusgood pizza is awesome22:57
Romsteri haven't had any in a long time so i went why not for a change.22:57
Romsternot something i do oftern.22:58
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cruxbot[contrib] rss-glx: fix missing headers from imagemagick23:30

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