IRC Logs for #crux Friday, 2008-03-21

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Dreamer`what's libXss that skype wants?04:13
tilmanxorg-libxscrnsaver04:15
tilmangoogle would have told you, or prt-get fsearch ._.04:15
pacmanwhats this libRTFM that my Dreamer` program needs to run? o_O04:16
Dreamer`actually prt-get fsearch doesnt find it04:18
tilmanyou need to search for 'libXss.so', then it does04:18
tilmanoh well04:18
Dreamer`oh. well my bad. thanks04:19
tilmannp04:19
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trimoin05:19
tilmanmorning05:19
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aonmorning05:27
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tilmananyone know an up-to-date guide to setting up xfs?06:15
tilmanthere's drobbins' filesystems implementors guide, but it's teh old06:15
tilman... and it was written by drobbins ;D06:15
treachmmh, there's more to it than reformating your drives etc?06:15
tilmanapparently it's a good idea to override the defaults of mkfs.xfs in some cases06:16
treachah.06:16
tilmani'm prepping another 500gb disk atm06:16
treachtoo much pr0n? :P06:16
tilmanxfs' dynamic inode allocation sounds like a good thing to have there06:16
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tilmani think i wasted quite some capacity on my ~380 gb ext3 partition ;)06:17
treachprobably06:17
treachI wish there were some more modern filesystems available. :/06:17
treachthe alternatives currently aren't too great.06:18
tilmanyup06:18
treachjfs is pretty good, but it has it's problems too, apparently.06:18
treachxfs is just plain ugly IMO.06:19
tilmanhttp://www.nabble.com/Re:-XFS-performance-problems-on-Linux-x86_64-td13983167.html06:19
predatorfreakext4 inherits the stupidness of some of ext3's design decisions, etc, etc.06:19
treachexactly, and it's not done yet either..06:19
treachreiserfs... do we need to comment on that..? :P06:20
predatorfreakWell, go use NTFS :P06:20
predatorfreakMURDERFS!!!!!!06:20
predatorfreak(Couldn't resist :D)06:20
* treach gets tilman's whip and beats predatorfreak senseless06:20
predatorfreaktreach: Watch out, I might enjoy it.06:21
treachfrankly speaking I find the "murderfs" crap pretty annoying.06:21
treachI suppose our best bet it btrfs.06:22
predatorfreakPersonally, I don't want him convicted.06:22
treachs it/is06:22
predatorfreakSo he can finish Reiser4.06:22
predatorfreakand give us a decently modern FS.06:22
predatorfreak"I don't trust the government. I don't trust our government. I don't trust the Russian government." - Hans Reiser06:23
predatorfreakNot going to score you points in court :D06:23
treachmmh, ext3 is ext2 with band-aids, and ext4 seems to be pretty much the same.06:24
predatorfreakWell they're doing some smart things, but some old design mechanics of ext2 are in all versions of ext*06:24
tilmantreach: i think it's a good design decision to stay with the basic disk format. if they had developed something entirely new instead of ext3 it would have taken much longer most likely06:25
treachI *really* look forward to the day btrfs is ready to test.06:25
tilmanbtree_mess--06:25
treachtbh, I think it's time for something new.06:26
treachthe premises have changed so damn much since the day of ext2.06:26
treachthe cpu is like 1000 times faster or so, you've got multigigs of ram instead of kilobytes, disk are almost infinitely bigger, etc.06:28
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predatorfreak"Because I'm an inconsiderate asshole." - Hans Reiser06:41
predatorfreak\o/ Court got the truth out of him06:41
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cruxbot[opt] madwifi: updated to 0.9.4, FS #24507:00
cruxbot[xorg] xorg-xf86-input-vmmouse: updated to 12.5.0.07:06
cruxbot[xorg] xorg-xf86-input-tek4957: updated to 1.2.0.07:06
cruxbot[xorg] xorg-xf86-input-summa: updated to 1.2.0.07:06
cruxbot[xorg] xorg-xf86-input-penmount: updated to 1.3.0.07:06
cruxbot[xorg] xorg-xf86-input-palmax: updated to 1.2.0.07:06
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treachvacation? :p07:09
tilmanatm it will only show the 5 most recent commits07:10
tilmanwithout indicating there's more07:10
treachah07:10
treachI guess I should try if my keyboard still works now. :p07:12
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treach@£${[]}\±~| \o/07:13
treach:p07:13
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Romsterskype requires xorg-libxscrnsaver?07:20
Romster    *  Software requirements    * Qt 4.2.1+    * D-Bus 1.0.0    * libasound2 1.0.1207:20
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mrksyay, vt switch paste bug is gone :)08:32
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rehabdolltilman: does the updated keyboard-driver fix the LED-issues?08:37
tilmanhahaha08:38
tilmandon't think so08:38
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tilmanrehabdoll: the proper bugfix is in the server08:43
tilmanbut 1.5 should be released soon08:43
tilmanrehabdoll: some guys also have patched xorg-server ports....08:44
* tilman just ran render_bench. xrender crushes imlib2 now that i've got render accel :]08:44
rehabdollah, thought it was limited to the driver :>08:45
tilmanso, fwiw, what makes desktop switching slow is my ~7 terminals :p08:50
tilmanhttp://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/xorg/2007-October/029443.html08:52
tilmanand after that, terminals with ttfs should be faster, too :>08:52
tilmanziomg08:52
rehabdollomgomgomg08:59
thrice`predatorfreak: around?09:00
RyoStilman: talking about the xserver, i tried your most recent port (which only has more patches, right?) and this breakes xkb for me, switchting back to old xserver port with everything else updated works fine ;D09:00
tilman1.4-6?09:01
RyoSyes09:02
tilmandefine "old xserver port"09:02
RyoSi rebuilt that thing severel times even, this has to be a bug with one of the patches09:03
RyoSxorg-2.3 repo09:03
RyoScan check in a minute ;)09:03
RyoS1.4-209:05
tilmanso which commit introduced the breakage?09:07
RyoSi have no clue, wasnt able to test this (yet)09:07
RyoSthough i have time this weekend to do so09:07
tilmancan anyone recommend a website with awesome wallpapers, besides digitalblasphemy?09:09
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Romsterrehabdoll, http://rafb.net/p/jHXmbZ39.html keyboard led patch for xorg-server09:10
RyoStilman: 4chan.org has that /wg/ board (wallpaper general) which i like pretty much ;)09:10
RyoSsometimes you find pretty good stuff there09:10
RyoShttp://customize.org/browse/wallpapers09:11
tilmanthanks09:11
RyoShttp://www.desktopography.net/09:11
RyoSthis one got some nice stuff too :) all i can provide09:11
Romsteri'm messing with my env settings.09:12
Romsteris it enough to set LANG to my locale or should i also set LC_CTYPE=C ?09:13
Romsterwould like to try utf-8 but i'll stick to the 8859-1 for now.09:13
RyoSutf-8 works fine here09:16
RyoSand as far as i know - setting LC_ALL is enough09:17
tilmanactually LC_CTYPE is most important09:18
tilmanLANG only influences the language that gettext chooses09:18
tilmandoesn't matter when your locale is english though ;)09:19
tilmangotta love 4chan09:20
RyoSi thought so ;)09:20
Romsteri was using LC_ALL but that's a override and shouldn't be used.09:27
RyoSreally? well then, will change it ^^09:28
mrksinterfacelift.com has some nice wallpapers too09:28
RomsterIf the LC_ALL environment variable is set, it overrides the value of LC_CTYPE and LC_MESSAGES; otherwise, LC_CTYPE and LC_MESSAGES default to the value of the LANG environment variable09:29
Romsterman gcc09:30
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Romsterso pretty much LANG is a master seting for LC_MESSAGES and LC_CTYPE09:33
RyoSthis actually fixed a problem with my netbsd box ;D thanks09:33
Romsterlol..09:33
Romstersee09:33
predatorfreakthrice`: Dowhatnow?09:34
RyoShaha :D perl was mockering about locale settings :S09:34
Romsterah09:34
Romsternot sure if i should set LC_CTYPE='C' LC_MESSAGES='en_AU.ISO-8859-1'09:34
thrice`predatorfreak: sorry, I just installed dbus for the first time in awhile; when I start it, it mentions that plugdev isn't a valid group.  do i have to add this manually?09:35
Romsteri don't fully understand character classification09:35
predatorfreakI just do export LC_ALL="en_GB.utf8"09:35
Romsterwhich is bad09:35
predatorfreak(Yes, I know I live in Amierca, screw you)09:35
Romsterwhy GB than US?09:36
predatorfreakthrice`: It's in the pre-install.09:36
thrice`the pre-install ran, for sure09:36
predatorfreakRomster: I don't utilise standard U.S. stuff.09:36
predatorfreakI type by en_GB.09:36
Romsterthrice`, i don't haev a pluggroup and it's fine without.09:36
Romsterah k09:36
thrice`Unknown group "plugdev" in message bus configuration file09:36
thrice`is what mine says on starting.  I know the pre-install adds a messagebus user09:37
predatorfreakhmmm.09:37
predatorfreakI don't have plugdev either.09:37
thrice`also, dbus-glib won't build with sudo, as it needs dbus-daemon, only located in /usr/sbin (not in default $PATH)09:37
Romsteri've had that warning and ignored it.09:37
Romsterpredatorfreak, you should relaly use LANG and not LC_ALL09:38
Romsterreally*09:38
predatorfreakRomster: It doesn't make much difference.09:38
Romsterit does if some program has issues and uses LC_ALL=C or somting like adobe does.09:39
Romster(as a example)09:39
thrice`predatorfreak: do you build your ports as root?09:39
predatorfreakthrice`: fakeroot.09:39
predatorfreakVia pkgmk user.09:39
thrice`ah, ok.09:40
Romsterlikewise and i'm gonna patch pkgmk to incorapte fakeroot than use makecommand      sudo -H -u pkgmk nice -n10 fakeroot pkgmk09:40
Romsteras i got a alias for pkgmk too, and it screws up pkgadd09:41
Romsterlike pkgmk -r -u, won't work currently witouout me doing unalias pkgmk09:41
Romsterhmm so utf8 is safe to use by the looks of it.09:43
thrice`alright then.  I suppose i'll ignore the dbus message09:43
predatorfreakRomster: Everyone uses UTF-8 these days.09:43
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Romsteri avoided it thinking it broke stuff.09:44
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Romsterlol think he borked something.09:44
thrice`hehe, utf8 broke :P09:44
Romsterpredatorfreak, i avoided it thinking it broke stuff.09:44
predatorfreakgrr.09:44
predatorfreakNote to self: don't stop dbus.09:44
Romsterlmao...09:44
Romsteryou only just found that out.09:44
thrice`or usre screen :)09:44
Romsteri did that quite awhile ago.09:45
predatorfreakone sec09:45
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predatorfreakthar.09:47
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Romsterhmm i relaly should set TMPDIR since i'm using a tmpfs and not using -pipe09:51
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tilmanmrks: interfacelift.com was a good idea10:18
Romsterhmm if i put LANG=... in rc.conf it'll be aviable systemwide without having to export it. seems like a good idea since things like timezone is in rc.conf10:22
mrks;)10:22
Romsterthan to use /etc/profile or is that a bad idea?10:23
Romstersince terms read from /etc/profile or suposed to xterm doesn't seem to by default.10:24
tilmani think it's the *shells* who do that10:31
Romsterah yes like bash not the term itself..10:31
Romstersorry about that.10:32
tilmanwhether bash reads /etc/profile might depend on whether it's called as a login shell or not10:32
Romsteryeah i'm reading the man page for it now.10:38
Romsteri just got used to doing . /etc/profile10:38
Romsterbut i should really fix it properly.10:38
RomsterINVOCATION section.10:39
RomsterAn interactive shell is one started without  non-option  arguments10:41
* Romster scratches my head...10:41
Romsterconfused.10:41
pacmanhorray for manuals written in cryptograph10:42
pacman<_<10:42
Romsterwouldn't 'without  option  arguments' make more sense.10:42
Romsteror with non-option...10:42
Romsteri know my grammar is crappy but hell some man pages.10:43
pacmanwould be nice if i could check my virtual terminal irssis for updates without changing out of xorg10:43
tilmanrun them in screen?10:44
pacman-.-10:44
pacmanRomster: do you know of any IMers like pidgin that work on the CLI?10:45
jaegertry finch10:45
thrice`finch comes with pidgin10:45
pacmanrofl10:45
pacmancool!10:45
pacmannow if only i had an app for...10:45
pacmannon-xorg browser equal to firefox :/10:46
thrice`:)10:46
Romsterelinks dosn't even come close.10:47
pacmani know10:47
pacmansadly, theres practically no way to completely replace xorg :/10:47
Romsterhmp reload /dev and i always lose nvidiactl but nvidia0 stays... what gives.10:48
pacmannow that i know about finch...10:48
Romsteri sware i'll write a udev rule for that.10:48
pacmani can toss fluxbox in the trash and just use windowlab ;)10:48
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pacmanand i can run all my internet programs inside a virtual terminal :D10:49
Romsterpacman, your just insane..10:50
Romsteryour like anti xorg.10:50
pacmanKISS.10:50
pacman<_<10:50
Romsteri like my GUI's10:50
Romsterthere is a limit on KISS and useability.10:50
pacmanin fact, if i could...10:51
Romsterbut i also use alot of terms too.10:51
pacmanI'd just gut xorg and use it for the games i can't run in a regular framebuffer10:51
Romsteri like to run commands but i like using firefox etc10:51
Romsterif on't i could find something better than xchat that's a gui.10:51
* pacman remembers the days of DOS.10:51
pacmanRomster: irssi ;)10:52
Romsterhate the whole windows version is always higher than the linux version and windows version is not free so breaks the GPL10:52
Romsterpfft i said GUI..10:52
Romsteri haev irssi and i've used bitchx too.10:52
Romsteri want smething that's a cut down version of mIRC for linux10:53
Romsteranyways mknod my nvidiactl device.10:53
pacmanits odd10:54
pacmani stopped using pekwm and my xorg crashes ceased10:54
pacmanstill using the same version of nvidia too10:54
Romsteri've never expeareanced any pekwm/xorg crashes10:55
tilmanRomster: do you have proof for your claim that xchat violates the gpl?10:55
Romsteroh i had one crash but that was my fault.10:55
pacmanou aint using 169.12(or whatever)10:55
Romstertilman, because of the dificulty of porting xcaht to windows i expect a fee for this GPL code that's open for the linux version. no where do i see the windows code unless i didn't look hard enough.10:56
Romsterthere is even a wiki page on wikipedia that thinks xchat is in violation of the GPL10:57
tilmanwhere does it say the windows version is GPLd?10:57
Romsterah i thought that, since the windows version is based off the linux GPL code right? or am i wrong there.10:58
tilmanthe copyright holder may relicense it though10:58
Romsterhmm10:58
Romsterso would he be in violation?10:59
Romsteri can't browse firewall killed off squid since i'm copiling glibc must be low on disk space.10:59
Romstercompiling*10:59
tilmannot if the guy has the copyright to all of the code10:59
Romsterhave a look at the xchat wikipedia page.11:00
Romsteri really don't know.11:00
Romsterjust it's suspicious.11:00
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Romsterundefined reference to `__sync_bool_compare_and_swap_4'11:25
Romsterouch... glib failed to build on my k6-211:25
Romsterglibc*11:26
Romsterbuilt fine on my k711:26
Romsterand i compiled gcc 4.2.3 on that machine.11:28
Romsterand ldconfig.11:28
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RyoScan anyone link me up with how to create a ramdisk?12:14
Romsterdevfs?12:15
Romstererr i ment tmpfs12:16
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RyoSRomster: thanks ^^12:17
cruxbot[contrib.git]: gcj: 4.2.2 -> 4.2.312:17
Romsteri use a tmpfs to compile it.12:17
Romsterit/in12:17
RyoSRomster: thats what i plan to do ^^12:17
Romsterman compilers take forever to compile.12:17
Romsterah12:18
Romsterpkgmk                  /usr/ports/work tmpfs size=2G,uid=111,gid=111,defaults 0      012:18
RyoS2G?12:18
RyoS;D12:18
Romsteryeah some shit i compile is massive.12:19
RyoSmh12:19
Romsternot very oftern i use that much though12:19
Romster1G is generaly enough for most.12:19
RyoSmh..12:19
Romsterin prt-get.conf i have makecommand      sudo -H -u pkgmk nice -n10 fakeroot pkgmk12:20
Romsterand pkgmk.conf PKGMK_WORK_DIR="/usr/ports/work/$name"12:20
Romsteri've just recently set TMPDIR='/usr/ports/work' and removed -pipe out of my CFLAGS too.12:21
william_hi, i'm still trying to figure out what exactly i need to enable in the kernel to get it to boot from a usb hd12:21
william_any help would be greatly appreciated12:21
Romstersine it's on a tmpfs having that in ram is pointless as it's on a tmpfs anyways.12:21
RomsterRyoS, i'm still toying aorund but i've hit a few minor snags.12:22
RyoSmh like?12:22
RyoSbtw i have only a total of 1,5G ram12:22
Romsteri haven't got any expeareance in usb hd's sadly.12:22
RyoSso what would be a good number to start?12:22
RomsterRyoS, i only havd 1,280MB in this it'll goto swa if need be.12:23
Romsterswap*12:23
RyoSoh i see12:23
Romster1G should be enough unless you plan to compile gc,boost,qt412:23
Romstergcc*12:23
Romsterthem things use alot more space.12:23
tilman2 gig ram disc with 1.25 gigs of ram12:23
RyoSi will set it to 512M for a start, and try to rebuild xulrunner/firefox and gcc, if that fails i will increase12:24
tilman\o/12:24
tilmanRyoS: 512M almost certainly wo't be enouh firefox/xulrunner12:24
tilmanimagine the missing words/characters12:24
RyoSmh ok, so i guess 768 could work, wouldnt it?12:24
Romstertilman, yeah i know it's not the best but i rarely go over 1GB12:25
Romsterand if i do it's nearly as slow as a non-tmpfs setup12:25
tilmanRyoS: not sure :/12:25
RyoSi will try it ^^12:25
Romsterand it's for the big compiles so they'll take time anyways.12:25
RomsterRyoS, should you'll bomb out of a compile if something won't fit.12:26
Romsteri also have distcc and ccache12:26
Romsterironic i add -march=i586 and now glibc compiles it wouldn't on just -mtune=k6-212:28
RyoSi try to compile xulrunner now12:28
Romsterthat takes some time.12:29
RyoSi know ;) built that 2-3 times already12:29
Romsterand RyoS you can set mroe than your ram amount it'll just slow down if it hits the swap12:29
Romsterhope you got ccache12:29
Romstermakes a huge improvment.12:29
Romsterand why 2-3 times?12:29
RyoSwell, first time to update to predatorfreaks firefox3 repo12:30
william_anyone used crux on an external usb hd?12:30
RyoSthen i tried some stuff, then testing tilmans gcc update :P12:30
RyoSnow the ramdisk12:30
RyoSsmoking break12:31
RyoS;)12:31
Romsterheh12:31
Romsterrecompiled binutils, glibc to take advantage of any gcc improvments then the kernel. and all of core, i'll get to the rest in awhile.12:32
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Romstertreach, whenyou removed -pipe did you happen to of set TMPDIR?12:35
treachno. it was alredy set. :)12:37
RyoSi am playing with the thought of creating a crux liveusbkey and then i can absue the windows box of my dad to help me with compiling bigger stuff ;)12:37
Romsteralready set oh, well mine wasn't but it is now.12:38
RyoSis there someone that has crux on a usbkey?12:39
william_i'm trying to install crux on a usb hd12:39
william_having trouble12:39
RyoSwilliam_: whats the problem there?12:39
william_i'm getting a kernel panic upon boot12:40
william_can't find root partition12:40
william_i think i'm missing a kernel option or someting12:40
RyoSyou have to builtin the modules needed for the usbhd12:40
william_yea12:41
RyoSwell that should do the trick12:44
william_i already have them built in12:44
Romsterwilliam_, look for some usb hdd howto.12:51
Romstercould be as simple as your fstab not right or your missing something still in the kernel.12:52
Romstermight be easier to enable aol devices get it working then weed out what you don't need.12:52
Romsterall*12:53
william_yea ... is there an easy way to enable all devices?12:53
Romstermake help12:55
treachmake: *** No rule to make target `help'.  Stop.12:55
Romsterthere is a option to enable all but it might be too much12:55
Romsterthere is a make help rule in the kernel12:56
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william_i looked13:13
william_i didn't see the option13:13
Romsterdidn't you look at the Configuration targets:13:16
william_i did13:16
Romsterallyesconfig    - New config where all options are accepted with yes13:16
william_oh13:16
william_heh... must have missed it13:16
Romstermake allyesconfig13:16
william_i think i may have found the one option i was missing though13:17
william_so i'll try that next13:17
william_this is like the 20th time i've built the kernel i think :)13:17
treachuname -v # ? :p13:18
william_i'd check but i can't actually boot :P13:18
treach:>13:19
RyoSxulrunner compiles fine on 768mb tmpfs :>13:20
william_what is tmpfs for13:20
RyoSramdisk13:20
william_does it just replace /tmp with a ramdisk13:20
william_ah13:20
RyoSi got it mounted on /home/pkgmk/work13:21
william_ah13:21
RyoSfirefox works fine13:21
RyoSmore tests later13:22
Romsteroh os that #3 menas i rebuit it 3 times..13:28
Romsterso*13:28
Romstermeans*13:28
Romsterdarn typing13:28
Romsterrebuilt*13:28
Romsterbah maybe i should start again...13:28
treachor, do something dramatic. like read what you typed *before* pressing enter. :>13:29
* treach watches Romster crawling back up on his chair.13:30
tilmanwilliam_: you can mount any numbers of tmpfs instances anywhere. it's a good candidate for /tmp, but not limited to it :D13:31
tilmantreach: so btrfs is pronounced 'butterfs'. how cool is that :]13:32
treachthe filesystem for fat disks? :p13:33
tilmanhehe13:33
treachI haven't found any source for that claim though.13:33
treachwhat I've seen it's read as "betterfs"13:34
treach:)13:34
tilmanthe wikipedea page links to val henson's chunkfs talk at lca13:34
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tilmani'm watching it now, and she does calls it butterfs13:35
treachk13:35
tilman:D13:35
Romstertilman, i just figured someting out we don't need the mknod lines $PKG/lib/udev/devices/{console,null,zero}, udev makes them just fine on udevtrigger13:37
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treachshe's a terrible speaker. :/14:24
tilmanyes14:27
treachls -lh test.spx mel8-262.ogg14:27
treach-rw-r--r-- 1 treach users 107M Mar 21 20:04 mel8-262.ogg14:27
treach-rw-r--r-- 1 treach users  16M Mar 21 20:27 test.spx14:27
treachheh14:27
tilmanwaving in front of the beamer ftl14:28
treachmmh. and a lot of aaahs, ehhhs and hehes. :>14:28
tilmanthe chukling is kind of cute14:29
tilmanbut i agree wrt the ahs and ums etc14:29
Romsterwhy does the locale stuff take so damn long to compile..14:33
tilmanhttp://files.code-monkey.de/ why is my file index broken?14:35
RomsterError: cannot open display: :0.0, yet i recreated /dev/nvidiactl14:36
Romsterseems only after i restart xorg does it work.14:36
Romsterand i can't untill this glibc finishes linking locale crap fun.14:37
Romsterunless there is some rehash or something command?14:38
tilmannice, fosdem videos are up, too14:45
treachmmh, using ogg for that audiofile is pretty dumb. :P14:58
tilmanmel8-262.ogg is ogg/theora ...15:14
tilmandid you think it was vorbis, ie audio only? :D15:15
treachwell, I only get audio out of it. :/15:15
treachI was kind of wondering ftw was up with a 108 MB audio file of a speech. :D15:16
treacheh 10815:16
treacheh 107!15:16
tilmantried mplayer?15:16
treachyeah15:16
tilmanstrange15:16
treach"Video: no video"15:17
treachduh.15:17
treachI think I installed libtheora *after* I installed mplayer. :>15:18
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tilmanomg, the audio of fosdem_2008_intel.ogg sucks15:21
treachhaha, ok, that fixed it. :P15:22
tilmanhehe15:23
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clickonceHello guys15:23
clickonceIsn't it ports 1963 and 1863 that MSN use?15:23
clickonceIt's not the iptables rule that doens't work since it does work for other ports, e.g. irc. It's just MSN that it doesn't block.15:25
treach@google -lucky msn port 8015:26
clbtreach: http://www.plevna.f9.co.uk/blockmsnmessenger.htm15:26
clickonceNice, thanks.15:28
clickonceTime to block IRC as well. :)15:28
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treach"I'm elitist, I don't use google" :>15:29
aon:p15:42
aon"it's not a website, it's a browser"15:42
aonas said by a finnish police about google15:42
treach;D15:43
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RedShiftwell it kinda is15:51
RedShiftit's a browser of search results ;-)15:52
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treachpredatorfreak: btw, you might want to disable mplayers look up of libdvdnav, since compilation breaks if it finds it.15:56
predatorfreaktreach: No it doesn't.15:56
predatorfreakI have libdvdnav installed here and mplayer builds perfectly.15:57
predatorfreakMake sure you're using the version Romster provides in contrib.15:58
predatorfreakNo other ones will work, in all likeliness.15:58
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treachstrange..15:59
treachI think I had the one from contrib installed (it's the one which gets listed), could it be that I had an older version installed which failed to show up in prt-get diff?16:00
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predatorfreakNo idea, although Romster's host is currently down XD16:00
predatorfreakSo, you'll have to procure the tarball through magic or something :D16:00
treachit's no big deal. TBH, I have no idea why it was installed in the first place..16:01
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jesse_"i'm an elitist, I don't use google" I lolled.16:12
aonheh16:13
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turnschuhhi there16:22
turnschuh:)16:22
treacho/16:22
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predatorfreakRAWR16:24
* predatorfreak eats turnschuh 16:24
turnschuhomg16:24
turnschuhD:16:24
predatorfreakSorry, Romster isn't around, so I've gotta pick up the slack.16:25
treachyer ytpni to wlle to fil hes shos. :>16:26
turnschuhthe Pkgfile from the kdelibs packages won't work were, at the end the find with the delete command is a bit weird, the package won't build, it says the directory is not empty, can someone compile the package or is that just on my pc? sorry for my english...16:30
treachwhere did you get this port?16:31
turnschuhthe kde repo16:31
treachthen you should contact the maintainer.16:31
treach(I don't think there are anyone present who runs kde)16:32
turnschuhwhat runs on your machine?16:33
treachfvwm. :D16:33
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turnschuhmhkay16:33
turnschuh^^16:33
treachkde is really nice, but IMO, a source based distro isn't the right place for it.16:34
turnschuhwhy?16:34
treachit takes too long time to build, and there is no significant downside with using a binary dist with it.16:35
turnschuhyes a long time, but i hope it will run rockstable, all distros i used before wasn't that :|16:36
treachsure.16:36
treachwhich distros have you tried before?16:36
turnschuhmhh archlinux, debian, ubuntu, i don't many distros^^16:37
turnschuhknow16:37
treachah.16:37
treachamazing you found us then. :P16:37
RyoSthrowing a rock at your pc is not the way to test how stable it runs16:37
turnschuh^^16:37
turnschuhlal16:37
treachfor a full kde desktop I've had good luck with opensuse.16:38
turnschuhyeah i don't like apt and rpm and all the bloated package manager :X and arch is a very nice distro, but it's not so stable16:38
turnschuh...16:38
treachdebian and ubuntu are not recommended for that setting, IMO16:38
turnschuhand yesterday i've tried slackware, but is was such a crap to install the xserver here /o16:39
turnschuhther16:39
turnschuhoh my goodness ...16:39
treachI've had all kinds of problems with apt, but -- knock on wood -- suse has worked very well.16:39
turnschuhyeah but suse use also a very patched kde i though?!16:40
treachwell. you're probably going to get those patches sooner or later anyway. :)16:40
treachsince they employ quite a few kde devs iirc.16:41
turnschuhmhh yeah maybe, but i like vanilla stuf^^16:41
turnschuhyeah maybe i will try suse16:41
treachit's worth a try, before you embark on a "compile kde marathon" :)16:42
turnschuhcompiling is nice^^ i can sit there and watch, like tv^^16:42
treach:>16:42
turnschuh<:16:44
turnschuhwhich country is .nu from the domain 'crux.nu'?16:47
treachniuve, I think16:47
treachsome small island in the pacific, living on selling domainames and fishing iirc16:48
turnschuhah nice ^^16:48
treachlots of swedish people have domain names like that, since "nu" in swedish means "now".16:48
turnschuhcoll guys ;-)16:49
turnschuhcool16:49
turnschuhyou are from sweden?16:50
treachyeah16:50
turnschuhnice nice, i am from germany...16:50
treachI'd never have guessed. ;)16:50
turnschuh^^16:50
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turnschuhis in sweden at the moment snow (where you live), or is there also spring weather?16:51
treachwe have snow at the moment.16:52
turnschuhthats cool16:52
aonsnow = :(16:52
turnschuhwe don't have much snow this winer :(16:52
turnschuhsnow rocks dude16:52
aonluckily we don't have any at the moment16:52
aonbut it's still damn cold16:52
treachhaven't had all winter, and suddenly it decided to bury us the day before yesterday16:52
thrice`we just got 3 inches :(16:52
aon-10.6 says the meter16:52
turnschuhwhoa16:52
turnschuhthats cold16:52
treachit's zeroish here.16:52
treacha few plus and then a few minus to even out the score. :>16:53
aon-1ish is nice, so you don't get covered in mud while outdoors16:53
turnschuhhere is weird spring weather, sometimes it rains and the the clouds blow away and the sun shines, something about 5-10 i guess16:54
aonor then it just could dry up and start being summer16:54
treachnot really..16:54
treachthe air is pretty moist here, so -1 isn't all that nice. :>16:54
aonheh16:54
treachthat's what you get from living pretty near a big lake, a river, and the sea. :S16:55
turnschuhyears ago i was some weeks in sweden, it was very nice to swim in the mountain lakes ^^16:56
treachno mountains here, just a freaking huge lake.16:56
turnschuhokay, here where i live, the whole land is flat and there is one small lake but nothing special, not so intressant :|16:58
treachheh16:58
turnschuhyeaha kdelibs is done, now kdebase :>17:01
turnschuhmhhh slow server :(17:03
treachdownload the stuff separetely then from a faster one. :>17:04
turnschuhi am so lazy17:04
turnschuh^^17:04
turnschuhthats work, okay...^^17:04
treachno complaining then, ok? ;)17:05
turnschuhperhaps17:05
turnschuh(=17:05
treachif you're new to crux, you could benefit from a quick look in /etc/pkgmk.conf btw.17:05
turnschuhyeah thats nice17:06
treachPKGMK_SOURCE_DIR, PKGMK_PACKAGE_DIR, PKGMK_WORK_DIR are very interesting variables.17:06
treachespecially if you create a tempfs and point WORK_DIR there.17:06
turnschuhcool17:07
treach*could* be helpful on massive stuff like kde -- if you have the ram for it.17:07
turnschuhnice, i'll try that17:08
treachhow much ram do you have?17:08
turnschuhonly 512M17:08
treachugh.17:08
treachthat probably won't work.17:09
turnschuh.(17:09
treachor, rather it will, but not for the big packages.17:09
turnschuhbut thats a very cool feature17:09
treachyeah.17:10
treachspeeds up stuff quite a bit. :p17:10
turnschuh:>17:10
turnschuhcrux is very, how is it say, maybe 'trough thinking'... i don't know17:11
turnschuhor trough thinked17:11
treachI get the point.17:11
turnschuhnice17:11
treach"durchgedenkt"?17:11
turnschuhdurchgedacht ;-)17:11
treachah right.17:11
treachofc17:11
turnschuhofc?17:11
treachof course17:11
turnschuhofc17:11
turnschuh^^17:11
turnschuhbut fvwm is nice you mean?17:12
RyoSdurchdacht17:12
RyoSwould a german say :P17:12
turnschuhstimmt17:12
treach"genomt17:12
turnschuhoh i am very tired i think...17:12
treachyou say "genomtänkt" in swedish, which is the same thing17:12
turnschuhD:17:12
turnschuhnice, i like swedish17:13
treachlol SUN just don't get things.17:13
turnschuhokay, you are using SUN?17:15
treachthey go to a place with predominantly linux developers, advertise their opensolaris stuff, and advice people to download the iso -- and burn it with "cdrw -i /path/to/iso/image.iso"17:15
treachno, looking at vidos from fosdem17:15
treachbut I use solaris now and then.17:15
turnschuhand also crux linux?17:16
treachyeah.17:16
turnschuhsolaris on server, or where?17:16
treachworkstation. :>17:16
turnschuhokay <:17:16
turnschuhwhat time is in sweden at the moment?17:18
treachsame as you have I presume, 23.117:19
RyoSOo17:19
treach917:19
turnschuhwhats up RyoS?17:19
treachRyoS: you didn't change tz recently I hope? :P17:19
RyoStreach: me? why?17:20
treach"Germany is since 20080101 on Moscow time"17:20
treachsince you made a face. :D17:20
RyoSlol? :D dont confuse me17:20
RyoSmoscow?17:20
treachjust kidding.17:20
RyoSi was getting goose bumps already17:20
treachok, would Honolulu time be better? :P17:21
RyoSoh christ YES!17:21
treachwtf is the time in honolulu right now..?17:22
RyoSthat would be wonderful17:22
treachyou'd only get the time, not the climate. :>17:22
RyoSFriday  3/21/2008  12:22 pm17:22
turnschuhooooh nice17:22
RyoSwell then id say no17:22
RyoSbecause i was hoping for the clima to mutate our unattractive women17:22
treachhaha17:23
treachyou don't like "Helga the barmaid"? :D17:23
RyoSi do not - no really, i dont :/17:23
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treach:p17:23
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RyoSthe grammophone record is hanging :S17:54
treachwhat?17:54
predatorfreakRomster: Oh hey you're back, now I can stop eating people :D17:58
* predatorfreak spits out turnschuh's half-digested corpse.17:58
RyoStreach: oh nothing, forget it =P i am too sleepy but i know if i will go to bed i wont sleep17:58
treachsounds like you're seeing things that aren't there. :P17:59
predatorfreaktreach: Maybe he's doing LSD whilst not sleeping?17:59
RyoSyeah, i better go and have some /b/ in the evening :P18:00
treachmaybe.18:00
treachpredatorfreak: could be dilerium too. :p18:00
predatorfreakor maybe he's just plain-old-fashion batshit crazy :D18:01
predatorfreakWe may never know..18:01
Romsterlol18:01
predatorfreakRomster: Except you, we already know you're batshit crazy :D18:02
predatorfreakand me.18:02
* predatorfreak stabs at air while screaming "DIE FLYING MONKEY."18:02
treachyou could include people who do presentations, and do that by basically reading their slides aloud. :/18:04
predatorfreakThey're just dumb, they're not crazy :D18:04
treachwell, they should be deterredt from doing further presentations, or maybe be scared into improving themselves.18:05
predatorfreaktreach: Just tell them "YOUR PRESENTATION SUCKS AND YOU SHOULD FEEL BAD!"18:06
treach:p18:06
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jesse_Old school batshit madness? o_o18:16
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jesse_There's certainly an overwhelming spectrum of craziness to choose from :D18:18
treachnormality is the abnormal18:18
jesse_Alternatively, everything and everyone is crazy, with severe differing scales.18:19
jesse_Either dead, or crazy and alive.18:20
predatorfreakjesse_: I'm on the extreme high end of crazy.18:20
predatorfreakjesse_: BTW, if you're missing a leg tomorrow.... don't look on my grill :D18:21
treachsince most people are dead, that would make spending time as that the normal thing to do. :P18:21
predatorfreaktreach: Braaaaaiiiinnnns.18:22
turnschuhso kde is up2date but my xserver won't start :\ sth. with the fonts are not correct: "could not open default font 'fixed'" does someone know how I can fix that?18:23
clarehi, I have a normal kind of a problem, I am still using crux 2.2.  and am having trouble with macromedia flash which says my glibc is older than 2.3. it is 2.3.618:23
treachturnschuh: did you run all the post install scripts?18:23
clareThis is not all that important, but I am finding it very hard to install 2.4 due to older hardware.18:23
jesse_predatorfreak: the elite upper class of crazy would not even be able to use a computer or anything else.18:24
turnschuhyeah i think18:24
predatorfreakjesse_: Nah.18:24
clareipw2100 does not knowhow to load the firmware, relying on hotplug, which is apparently not running any more is that true?18:24
turnschuhhow can i finding out?18:24
predatorfreakYou can be batshit and still operate a computer.18:25
predatorfreakBut anyway, going to bed.18:25
clarexorg knows nothing about a synaptics driver for the mouse so I have a very primitive mouse driver.18:25
treachclare: hotplug shouldn't be needed, if your system is up to date.18:25
predatorfreaktreach: He said he's on 2.218:25
treachbeing as old as it is, I don't dare to promise anything18:25
treachpredatorfreak: I noticed, and it's a she, btw. :>18:26
predatorfreakWait.... what?18:26
* predatorfreak postpones sleep.18:26
predatorfreakFEMALES exist in #crux?18:26
clareSO i thought what do you mean up-to-date it is crux 2.4 new installation,  the problem as I see it is that ip2100 driver is partly binary int he kernel and runs very early.18:26
predatorfreakArmageddon!18:26
RyoSpredatorfreak: its a trap18:26
* predatorfreak runs into shelter.18:26
* predatorfreak pokes head out18:27
predatorfreakRyoS: Trap? :D18:27
RyoStrap!18:27
treachpredatorfreak: shut up18:27
RyoS:P18:27
predatorfreakRyoS: Yay!18:27
predatorfreaktreach: It's tradition.18:27
treachclare: I haven't used the ip2100 driver for a long time, I don't think I had to much more than put the firmware image in the right directory.18:28
jesse_Tradition? Pff.18:28
predatorfreakclare: The best solution I could recommend is to build ipw2100 as a module.18:28
RyoSparty hard anyone? ^_^18:28
turnschuhdid someone have the same problem with xorg?! i will running kde before i going to bed! ^^18:28
predatorfreakand load it after booting.18:28
predatorfreakOtherwise, you'll probably need an initrd.18:28
predatorfreakDue to the lack of firmware availability when the kernel first boots.18:29
treachturnschuh: lots of people have asked that question. :)18:29
claretreach: exactly, that is what I was doing. and I have it as a module but  all the rpobles happen very early and I find this file in kernel sources called built-in.o and it is where the problem is, very early18:29
treachin fact, if you ask tilman about it, he'll probably kill you. :>18:29
predatorfreakclare: built-in.o is nothing.18:30
predatorfreakThe kernel generates it for linking, mostly.18:30
predatorfreakclare: It might be worth making an initrd18:30
treachclare: ok, sorry. I can't help you, my memory is too fuzzy.18:30
predatorfreakI have no personal experience with ipw2100.18:30
RyoSturnschuh: havent read the answer, have you run the post-scripts?18:30
turnschuhwhich post-scripts?18:31
clarehmm. every thng I am tryingto do lately requires study of things I have never done <sigh>18:31
treachI did use ipw2100 with 2.3, but that's a long time ago.18:31
predatorfreakBut, general kernel experience dictates that if you need stuff in the kernel early, you need an inird.18:31
predatorfreakinitrd*18:31
treachturnschuh: he's refering to the post-install scripts18:31
predatorfreakclare: I could show you a basic initrd setup.18:31
treachwich by god isn't postscript..18:32
predatorfreakI use one atm for uvesafb.18:32
treach..thankfully.18:32
clareexactly, I gave up on 2.3 due to problem with no synaptics driver for X mouse i think  - still have that problem18:32
clarepredatorfreak, thankyou, please do if you do it for crux 2.4 that would be great18:33
treachwhat kind of laptop is it?18:33
predatorfreakclare: http://pred.dcaf-security.org/v86d-0.1.3.initramfs18:33
predatorfreakModify to your needs, removing the binary and such.18:33
predatorfreakBut essentially you take that, run gen_init_cpio blah.initramfs > blah.initrd18:34
predatorfreakand add initrd=blah.initrd to your LILO/GRUB config.18:35
treachclare: btw, I did a quick lookup on the flash issue -> http://www.linuxpackages.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2513&highlight=&sid=10f1a4476c5991a35feb1594f299851d18:35
claretreach it is a fujitsu P5020  maybe 3 years old18:35
predatorfreakYou'll probably need to include the firmware directory and firmware instead of the v86d binary that I use.18:35
treachok18:35
predatorfreakPossibly some kind of userspace utilities for the program too, but they'd have to be built against klibc.18:36
predatorfreakgen_init_cpio is in the kernel source directory under usr18:36
predatorfreak(gen_init_cpio.c, you might need to compile it)18:36
clarepredatorfreak,18:37
clarethank you, I will save these pearls of wisdom but will need to start at the beginning I fear. this is why I use CRUX i need things to be simple...:)18:37
predatorfreakclare: If you hit any snags, feel free to yell at me.18:38
predatorfreakhttp://yro.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/03/21/1511240&from=rss <-- CREEPY.18:39
turnschuhyeah that was my mistake :X fuck so i have to recompile xorg? and maybe kde?!18:40
treachno, not kde18:41
claretreach: thanks for that link, I will try their method(s)18:41
turnschuhpuuuh18:41
treachclare: good luck18:41
treachturnschuh: you might want to enable prt-get to automatically run postinstall scripts.18:42
treachthat would probably be for the best18:42
claretreach: thank you; dont be surprised if I am still on version 2.2 for months yet, I do have other things to do than argue with changed kernels18:42
treachheh18:43
treachwho doesn't? :D18:43
turnschuhokay so i have to uncomment 'runscript yes' in /etc/prt-get.conf, right?18:43
predatorfreakturnschuh: You can essentially just do for i in /usr/lib/X11/fonts/*; do; pushd $i; mkfontdir; mkfontscale; done18:43
predatorfreakTo correct the no-fixed problem with Xorg.18:44
predatorfreakerr18:44
thrice`try again :)18:44
predatorfreakfor i in /usr/lib/X11/fonts/*; do; pushd $i; mkfontdir; mkfontscale; popd; done18:44
predatorfreakSorry.18:44
predatorfreakGetting too tired to be helpful anymore.18:44
turnschuhthanks, but i going to bed now and it will recompile xorg, thx anyway18:44
claretreach: Unfortunately it is even harder with ubuntu - there I stand no chance, if it doesn't work I  can do nothing18:45
predatorfreakturnschuh: There's no need to recompile Xorg.18:45
thrice`http://crux.nu/gitweb/?p=ports/core.git;a=blob;f=rc/rc.fix;h=c0303c0300a193ce5ef3467254067906693b31c7;hb=2.418:45
thrice`or use that script18:45
predatorfreakSimply running that as root alleviates the problem.18:45
predatorfreakthrice`: Yeah that too.18:45
treachclare: lol18:46
turnschuhbut not when i had remove xorg for 5 min...^^ good night and thx for ya help18:46
thrice`good luck :)18:46
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predatorfreakthrice`: TBH, I think we should move rc.fix out of startup and add it as a final-step-post-Xorg-install-from-CD.18:47
predatorfreakor someshit.18:47
clarebye, seeya another day18:47
treachcya18:47
predatorfreakclare: Bye, ma'am.18:47
clarepredatorfreak: well done, I am not young.18:48
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predatorfreakApparently I guessed age over the interwebs?18:49
treachculture clash?18:49
jesse_I'm not seeing any numbers.18:49
jesse_Besides, the definition of 'old' varies widely.18:50
treachshe didn't say she was old.18:50
predatorfreaktreach: Call it an oddball thing, I refer to most females besides my mother and sister as "ma'am"18:50
treachjesse_: Epic fail in logic.18:50
treach:P18:50
jesse_Fine, I did get ahead of myself. not young != old ;)18:51
jesse_Not in this case anyway. :D18:52
predatorfreakjesse_: By definition if you're not young, you're old.18:52
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predatorfreakIn-between is a lie.18:52
treachwrong18:52
predatorfreakYou're either young or you're old :D18:52
treachnothing is ever black or white like that18:52
jesse_age is nothing more than a time measure.18:52
treachbut I guess you're too young to understand that. :p18:53
predatorfreaktreach: There's no proper word for a state between young and old.18:53
jesse_You can have one foot in the grave in age yet be youthful in mind.18:53
predatorfreakAt least, not in English.18:53
turnschuhokay i was wrong, xorg is not removed yet, predatorfreak can you help me one more time pls? ;)18:53
jesse_Sure there is: adult.18:53
treachpredatorfreak:  that's because "old" is a relative term18:53
predatorfreakjesse_: Adult signifies a person who is not a minor.18:53
predatorfreakLegally speaking.18:53
treachand there are a lot of adults who behaves like minors..18:54
predatorfreak(Honestly, the only real definition that means shit is the legal definition)18:54
treachthat's wrong too. ;)18:54
predatorfreaktreach: Any other definition of adult is pointless.18:55
jesse_treach: and of course there are minors that act like oldies :D18:55
predatorfreakI just use it as a legal term.18:55
treachpredatorfreak: of course it isn't.18:55
predatorfreaktreach: Any other definition has failing points.18:55
treachthat's why you don't, in a sane country, give people with mental disabilities the same punishment as mentally healty (oh well) normal adults.18:56
jesse_'adult' in the legal sense is nothing other than a cut-off scale determining wheter you are responsible for yourself or not.18:56
predatorfreakjesse_: Yeah.18:56
predatorfreakOnly they determine by age.18:56
predatorfreakNot mental state.18:56
predatorfreak(Which is stupid, but whatever)18:57
treachwell, in your country.18:57
predatorfreaktreach: Which country doesn't do it that way?18:57
jesse_Sure they will once you see a drooling, wheelchair bound person in front of them.18:57
jesse_Might be an adult, but you can clearly say they cannot look after themselves or function as expected by society.18:57
predatorfreakjesse_: A court in the US doesn't care.18:57
predatorfreakIf they're 18, they're legally an adult.18:58
treachbut that's beside the point.18:58
turnschuhthe loop won't work:( i get an syntax error. 'for i in /usr/lib/X11/fonts/*; do; pushd $i; mkfontdir; mkfontscale; popd; done18:58
treachbecause the US legal system is totally FUBAR18:58
predatorfreaktreach: Any other definition is pointless because there's no "adults" by any other definition.18:58
treachit's not a system of justice, it's s a system for retribution, and economic exploatiation.18:58
treachof course there are adults by other definitions.18:59
Romsterturnschuh, run this prt-get update --install-scripts `prt-get quickdep xorg`19:00
predatorfreaktreach: I have met very few people that I would define as "adults" by a definition defined by mental state and such.19:00
Romsterand maybe enable the install scripts option in prt-conf for future stuff.19:00
treachpredatorfreak: and that's the problem with the US. :D19:00
Romsterprt-get.conf*19:01
predatorfreaktreach: Possibly my grandparents, but fuck, they're about it.19:01
Romsteradult = someone that can act mature when need be and responsable.19:01
treachable to think beyond their own wants and needs.19:01
predatorfreakRomster, treach: By both definitions, I'm already an adult.19:02
treachcongratulations. :D19:02
* treach gets the champagne19:02
* jesse_ pops a champagne open19:02
treachlol19:02
jesse_1 bloody second19:02
predatorfreakScrew alcohol!19:02
Romsterlol19:02
predatorfreakJust because I'm an adult doesn't mean I enjoy getting hammered.19:03
treachjesse_: you're fast, what's your last name? James?19:03
jesse_:D19:03
Romsterman there going nuts in australia http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/worldnews.html?in_article_id=540550&in_page_id=181119:04
RomsterAs concerns over "Binge Australia" grow, two of the country's biggest brewers will end production of drinks with high-alcohol content in an effort to crack down on the binge-drinking epidemic.19:04
treachwot?19:04
Romsteras if that will stop them19:04
jesse_That won't help.19:04
jesse_They will buy even more.19:05
Romsteryeah19:05
treachau, without binge drinking?19:05
predatorfreakRomster: Better yet tell people to stop fucking drinking.19:05
treachUnpossable19:05
jesse_Their problem solving logic is ignorant and myopic.19:05
predatorfreakAs far as I'm concerned, alcohol is a pointless beverage.19:05
jesse_In Finland they tried to control it by first lowering tax rates and then eventually pulling them up again.19:06
predatorfreakjesse_: No amount of Government mandates will end it.19:06
predatorfreakPeople are stupid.19:06
predatorfreakU.S. tried prohibition and that failed horribly.19:07
jesse_It's just a puppet show to make it seem like they are doing something.19:07
predatorfreakAnything short of flat-out banning is a useless attempt and flat-out banning doesn't work either.19:07
jesse_re-election is the only goal.19:07
predatorfreakSo, we just need to accept that people are idiots.19:07
jesse_Banning something makes it more coveted and it likely gives a free hand to organized crime.19:07
jesse_Banned psychoactive drug substances sure as hell are a nice example.19:08
jesse_Same with the US prohibition. It empowered organized crime.19:08
treachor rethink our society, and make sure nobody gets out of school whithout being an adult.19:08
treachor something. :/19:08
Romsterban something they start a black market.19:08
treachthe problem is much bigger than alcohol, which is a big enough problem19:09
predatorfreakjesse_: Like I said.19:09
predatorfreakjesse_: Controlling a substance is impossible.19:09
predatorfreakThe "best" solution to "control" is to ban it, but that won't totally work.19:10
predatorfreakMaking it ultimately pointless to do anything.19:10
Romsterpredatorfreak, drinking is fine in moderation not like i used to  that i stoped doing.19:10
predatorfreakSimple course of logic should tell them this shit.19:10
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predatorfreakRomster: I don't believe in alcohol period.19:10
treachdays surely are short in .au19:10
predatorfreakEven the tiniest amount is a poison to the body.19:10
treach:D19:10
jesse_Welcome to reality: it's all perceptions and irrationality in action.19:10
predatorfreakclare: Welcome back, ma'am.19:11
treachteaching people to behave like adults are probably one of the hardest tasks you can find. :/19:11
jesse_treach: it won't happen because it requires massive and decisive action.19:12
clareHI, just had to tell you the editing of the installer file worked, I was able to watch this  http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=X781iXprqo819:12
jesse_Change = bad19:12
jesse_:D19:12
treachclare: good. :)19:12
clareI have a first model of this phone, white and orange, so always like to see what is happening19:12
predatorfreaktreach: It's practically impossible if they're still acting like kids19:13
treachyeah.19:13
claredepends  on the kids of course19:13
predatorfreakThey'll reject what you say uniformly unless they want to hear it.19:13
predatorfreakclare: We're talking about adult who act like kids.19:14
predatorfreakadults*19:14
clareI thnk you are unjust to kids19:14
treach"suppsed adults" :>19:14
predatorfreakActually, I'll revise that.19:14
predatorfreakNot adults, persons above 18.19:14
predatorfreakThey're only legally adults here :)19:14
treachclare: we're not unfair to kids, it's the parents fault. ;)19:15
predatorfreakclare: I'm a kid myself (by legal definition), so I can generically refer to my own age range.19:15
predatorfreakThey're all a bunch of whiny bastards around here ;)19:15
predatorfreakThey're acting like 10 year old's, as far as I see it.19:16
clareMy take on it is that kids are quite sensible if you get a chance to talk to them; but I must admit I wonder after coming home in a school bus yesterday...19:16
predatorfreakclare: As you said, it depends on the kid.19:17
predatorfreakI know some people under 18 that are mature, sensible folk.19:17
Romsterif kids arount around others in peer preasure they can mostly act there age but in a group that's rare.19:18
predatorfreakand conversely, I know a large amount of people under 18 that are immature brats.19:18
predatorfreakRomster: Case-in-point, me.19:18
predatorfreak:D19:18
treachRomster: the effect of peer pressure depends highly on the peers..19:18
Romsterthat too.19:18
Romsterpredatorfreak, hehe19:19
predatorfreaktreach: In the U.S, the peers almost uniformly suck.19:19
treachif the peers are "real" adults, it will have a moderating effect.19:19
treachwhile if it's people of the same age, things will tend to derail19:19
predatorfreaktreach: Go to any school in the U.S.19:19
jesse_Which is not the case to begin with :D19:19
predatorfreakPick out the number of real adults.19:20
predatorfreakCompare to total students :P19:20
predatorfreakYou should get a ratio roughly 1 in a billion.19:20
treachpredatorfreak: and because they are americans they will still behave like 10 year-olds. :>19:20
predatorfreaktreach: It's not limited to the U.S. though.19:20
predatorfreakOther countries have the exact same problem.19:21
jesse_Parenting is a systematic failure, now they are trying to cover up by blaming arbitrary institutions.19:21
predatorfreakIt's human behaviour, it spreads.19:21
treach"duude, someone from your country blew up a house here, we're soooo going to declare war on ya!"19:21
jesse_Especially in the so-called developed nations.19:21
treachpredatorfreak: that's true, more or less.19:21
predatorfreakjesse_: I'd agree, parenting ability is on the decline here.19:21
treachpeople are not given enough responsibility and trust, so they behave like kids.19:22
predatorfreakGuess I'm kind of lucky to have had a mother that grew up in a small town and had good parents <_<19:22
predatorfreakI also tend to find that as the size of the population in an area increases, average parenting ability goes down.19:22
predatorfreakSmall towns tend to have more well-behaved kids and better parents, large towns more brats and worse parents.19:23
treachof course. because there are bigger oppertunities to chose your peers in a big city.19:24
jesse_I get the impression that the more people you pack closer together, the worse the outcome.19:24
predatorfreaktreach: More of the peers are shit though.19:24
treachand nobody knows everyone, ie, less social control19:24
predatorfreaktreach: The problem is the larger the pack, the more likely you encounter the dolts.19:24
predatorfreakand in my experience, the dolts spread faster than the intelligent ones.19:25
treachof course, since there are more dolts, since the lack of control increases the oppertunity for someone to become a dolt19:25
treachD*of course there are*19:25
predatorfreakYes.19:25
predatorfreakPerhaps you could make the point that your average small town kid won't understand things like physics as well as your big city kid.19:26
predatorfreakBut fuck, most of my cousins, who still live out in a small town here, are well-behaved, hard working folk.19:26
treachmeh, big city kids are much more probable to skip school, I guess.19:26
treachso I think they might be more likely to manage the physics as well. :D19:27
predatorfreaktreach: I think the most valuable thing you can instill in kids is work ethic.19:27
treachno. respect.19:27
predatorfreakI have a strong sense of respect, but I have a system of earning it.19:28
predatorfreakBut my belief is, without work ethic.19:28
treachin the full meaning of the word. not "watch yer mouth or I'll woop yer ass" thing.19:28
predatorfreakNothing else falls into place.19:28
predatorfreakIf you have a strong work ethic and you aren't a slacker, I tend to find that you wind up a better person.19:29
treachyou don't get work ethics without respect19:29
predatorfreakI disagree.19:29
treachk19:29
treachlets put it like this;19:29
predatorfreakNo one can TEACH a work ethic, it's something you have to grasp yourself.19:29
predatorfreakSomeone can give you a job to do and try to instill a work ethic, but if you reject it and slack off.19:30
treachyou have a high work ethic, and you do as well as you can at your job.19:30
predatorfreakYou don't gain a work ethic.19:30
predatorfreakBy gaining a work ethic, you learn to respect hard working people.19:30
treachthen I become your boss, and tear you a new one every time you make a mistake, no matter how small.19:30
treachhow long do you think your work ethics will survive?19:31
predatorfreaktreach: I would respect your position and resign.19:31
treachwhy?19:31
predatorfreakand go find a new job.19:31
treachwhy?19:31
predatorfreaktreach: Changing corporate hierarchy is almost impossible unless you're on top.19:31
predatorfreakNo amount of complaining would change the fact you're my boss.19:32
treachI'll tell you why you'd go away; because I don't respect you.19:32
predatorfreakThe simplest and most direct method is to resign.19:32
predatorfreakThen find another job.19:32
treachno matter if you love your job, and think it's meaningful and important.19:32
treachIf I don't respect you, no matter your work ethics, you'll go away.19:32
predatorfreaktreach: Yes, but, if I have no work ethic.19:33
predatorfreakI have no desire to gain a job and work for a living.19:33
treachthat's a secondary problem19:33
treachif there is no respect there is nothing.19:33
predatorfreaktreach: Difference of opinion.19:33
treachnot really.19:33
predatorfreakYes.19:34
predatorfreaktreach: If you had no work ethic, would you become my boss?19:34
predatorfreakIn all likeliness, no.19:34
treachheh. in the world of corporate politics, nothing is certain.. :>19:34
jesse_If you know the right people, anything goes. :D19:34
predatorfreakIf you have a work ethic, you have a stronger drive towards success.19:35
predatorfreakRespect comes out of hard work.19:35
predatorfreakAt least, in my opinion.19:35
treachonly partly.19:35
treachyou show even people you don't know a certain amount of respect, no?19:35
predatorfreaktreach: Yes, common courtesy.19:36
predatorfreakI don't walk up to people and call them morons.19:36
predatorfreakI reserve that for AFTER I get to know people.19:36
treachyeah, and that's why respect isn't neccessarily earned.19:36
predatorfreakI don't define that as "respect" though, I define it more as "courtesy".19:37
treachyou call it "common courtesy", but it *is* respect. And it's not as common as one would wish. :/19:37
predatorfreakI think of respect as something earned, courtesy something defaulted.19:37
treachso, you do not pull the wings of flies because of common courtesy?19:38
predatorfreakYes.19:38
treachbadly formed, but I guess you get the point.19:38
predatorfreakWell, actually more so because there's no point to pulling the wings of flies.'19:38
predatorfreakI don't care about flies :D19:38
treachwell, hurting people just for fun then?19:39
treachif you knew you could get away with it?19:39
predatorfreaktreach: No, I'm not a sadist.19:39
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predatorfreakPlus, I file that under "moral values".19:39
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treachI think you should think more about this.19:39
predatorfreaktreach: I guess if you wanna get technical you could define stuff like that with a broad definition of "respect".19:40
predatorfreakBut I make separations.19:40
treachIf you think enough about it you'll see it all boils down to that respect thing in the end.19:40
predatorfreakMoral values are general guiding principles by which I live.19:40
treachand what does there moral values tell you? =)19:40
treachwhat to respect. :D19:41
predatorfreakTrust and respect are things earned or lost by actions someone commits.19:41
treachsigh.19:41
Toshi2~2~CCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCsemantics19:41
treachthat is just not true.19:41
predatorfreaktreach: They inform my decisions as to how to act, behave and what is acceptable and unacceptable in a given situation.19:41
Toshiwhoops19:41
treachToshi: hehe19:42
predatorfreakYeah, I'm "respecting" a principle.19:42
predatorfreakBut that's not the kind of respect I mean.19:42
treachno, and that's what I said from the beginning.19:42
treachrespect in it's full meaning.19:42
predatorfreaktreach: I do not work by that meaning of respect.19:43
predatorfreakWhich is why we differ on this.19:43
treachmy point is that work ethics is something that comes from your selfesteem, positive feedback from your peers etc.19:44
treachif those fail, your work ethics go out the window.19:44
treachand that's easily verifiable facts.19:44
predatorfreaktreach: I have a work ethic regardless of positive feedback from peers as I have selfesteem that doesn't require external reinforcement.19:46
turnschuhomg it works :D thx dudes for me helping, good night (:19:46
treachgood night turnschuh19:47
predatorfreakBut, that said, your example of a boss who does not respect his employees.19:47
predatorfreakYes, I would resign.19:47
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treachpredatorfreak: and why? because your work ethics will not be strong enough to make you continue.19:47
predatorfreaktreach: My work ethic would be strong enough to tell me to find another job.19:48
treachand your selfesteem is higly dependent on external feedback, whatever you may think.19:48
predatorfreakEven if it means giving up seniority.19:48
predatorfreakDue to unfavourable work conditions.19:48
treachthat's not work ethics, that's selfesteem.19:48
predatorfreaktreach: No, selfesteem doesn't influence whether or not I would get a job.19:48
predatorfreakI do not ever intend to be a lazy bastard.19:49
treachyou have too much respect for yourself to continue working for an asshole like me.19:49
predatorfreakNo matter how shitty I feel or how bad my selfesteem is.19:49
predatorfreaktreach: Yes, my respect for you would not outweight my own self respect.19:49
ToshiSounds like somebody is confused but I'm too lazy to look up the history.  First person to say "I'm right!" wins.19:50
treachwrong again. if your selfesteem is under the ice, you will probably prefom badly on an interview, and quite possibly at your job too.19:50
predatorfreakBut my work ethic drove me to gain the job in the first place, thus without the work ethic, I'd just be a lazy fucker.19:50
treachI'm right19:50
ToshiThank you19:50
treach:D19:50
predatorfreaktreach: I have yet to have my selfesteem falter that much in my entire life.19:50
* drijen thinks he missed an awesome conversation19:50
predatorfreakEven during some of the worst parts of my life.19:50
ToshiI've been working out the sqlite db schema last couple of nights19:51
treachthen you've just not been hit the right way. ;)19:51
predatorfreakNo matter what others think of me, I've always maintained my own selfesteem.19:51
predatorfreaktreach: If I haven't been hit the right way yet, Armageddon will be the only way to damage my selfesteem.19:51
treachToshi: cool, I've been meaning to ask you if my little confused writing made any sense to you. :)19:51
ToshiWhat do you use to view tex?19:52
*** drijen has quit IRC19:52
treachhehe19:52
ToshiI was just using vim19:52
treachvim works. :)19:52
treachotherways you make a pdf from it with latex19:52
treachotherwise19:52
Toshibeen messing with the sqlite , it's pretty cool19:53
treachI've prepaired a pdf if you'd like a saner layout than vim offers. :D19:53
predatorfreaktreach: I am an individual, I do not require the approval of the masses to be happy.19:53
Toshinaw, it's fine19:53
treachwho spoke of the masses?19:54
predatorfreaktreach: I'm equating peer groups to masses.19:54
treachyour boss and your co workers making your life miserable is enough in the long run.19:54
predatorfreaktreach: They would have to basically lock me in a cell in a damp, dark basement and torture me for years on end to make my life miserable.19:55
treachor putting yourself in a stressful position where you have very small possibilities to change anything.19:55
predatorfreakShort of that, everything is a cakewalk as far as I'm concerned.19:55
Toshipredatorfreak: how old are you?19:55
treachnot old enough. :)19:56
predatorfreakToshi: 17, yes I know I was being melodramatic.19:56
Toshiheh19:56
predatorfreaktreach: Yeah, I hear that enough.19:56
ToshiEnjoy school, I miss it19:56
predatorfreakToshi: I don't.19:56
treachdw, you will. :p19:57
Toshicollege esp19:57
predatorfreaktreach: How little you understand me :)19:57
treachmmh. could be. could also be that I know a bit more of human nature and psycology than you do.19:58
treachwho knows.19:58
predatorfreakFormal education is boring, mundane and largely just ritual.19:58
predatorfreakNothing about it is hard, challenging or interesting.19:58
predatorfreakMaking it more of a chore than an actual learning experience.19:59
treachdepends on your school I presume.19:59
predatorfreakIn the U.S?19:59
predatorfreakNot really.19:59
treachmaybe you should try a japanese school.19:59
predatorfreakUnless you go to a private school.19:59
treachAhem.19:59
treachI'm not refering to the american school system.19:59
predatorfreakEvery public school in the U.S. is shit.20:00
ToshiWhere?20:00
predatorfreaktreach: Then you shouldn't say "your school"20:00
predatorfreakYou should say "my school" :)20:00
treachfrom what I've gatherd it's about as fucked up as the judicial system.20:00
Toshimy public school was fine20:00
predatorfreakToshi: How old are you? :P20:00
Toshi2520:00
treachToshi: probably in a different eon. :D20:00
predatorfreakYou got out before it turned crap.20:00
predatorfreakCongrads.20:00
predatorfreakWell, total crap.20:00
predatorfreak-d +t20:01
treachpredatorfreak: I tend to use "you" in a general sense.20:01
treachis that incorrect?20:01
predatorfreakWell, stating your school would me like me saying20:01
predatorfreakYour local gas station.20:01
predatorfreakIt implies the ones where you live.20:01
treachyeah.20:02
ToshiYou can read and compose sentences20:02
predatorfreakTo be honest though, I do not find any form of formal education interesting.20:02
predatorfreakThey all fail on the grounds of boringness.20:02
treachwell, I said "depends on your school I presume." well, wether you find your education hard, challenging or boring should depend on it, right?20:02
predatorfreaktreach: No, it depends more on your general intelligence.20:03
predatorfreakand learning ability.20:03
treach*cogh*20:03
predatorfreakI could do a million different courses for the same shit.20:03
treachI'd say that's pretty darn wrong.20:04
predatorfreakand they'd all be boring and mundane for me.20:04
predatorfreakBecause they wouldn't engage me in learning any of it.20:04
ToshiWhat are you learning?20:04
predatorfreakToshi: At the moment, tightening my math skills.20:04
treachif you compare a school were test are implemented as multichoice surveys, that will probably be a great deal easier, than one which implements them like "describe" (50p)20:05
ToshiWhat math?20:05
predatorfreakEverything beyond basic algebra is boring and useless for my needs.20:05
predatorfreakToshi: Higher algebra.20:05
predatorfreaktreach: I could describe shit forever and ever and ever.20:05
ToshiI suppose, if you want to make less money20:06
treachyeah, but would you get it right?20:06
predatorfreakand it still doesn't reflect a deep understanding of shit.20:06
treachahem..20:06
predatorfreaktreach: In all likeliness yes.20:06
predatorfreakNot because I care about the subject, but because I memorised enough to describe shit.20:06
treachok. which would you prefer, A multichoice questionary on the outcome of the first world war, or getting a question requiring you to write it all yourself, for a total worth of 50 points?20:07
predatorfreakToshi: Once you get basic algebra, the rest is repetition with lots of dumbass bits that mean jackall of nothing for things you'll actually do.20:07
predatorfreakUnless you're an idiot and need everything in math explained in a fancy bundle.20:07
ToshiI majored in applied math20:08
Toshilol20:08
predatorfreaktreach: I'd rather describe it.20:08
predatorfreakBecause I like history.20:08
treachok. but that wasn't the point really.20:08
treachwhich one would you think would be the most challenging?20:09
predatorfreakIf the thing I'm learning is boring and mundane, multichoice questionary, because it's fast.20:09
predatorfreaktreach: Neither.20:09
ToshiI don't understand the point of your rant20:09
treachrefering to the type of question, not the subject20:09
treachToshi: who's ranting?20:09
Toshipredatorfreak20:09
treachah. ok20:09
predatorfreaktreach: Neither would be hard for me,20:09
treach:)20:09
predatorfreakI could do both.20:10
predatorfreakI guess describing shit takes more time.20:10
predatorfreakBut it doesn't really take any more skill or knowledge.20:10
ToshiIf you don't care about making more money drop out20:10
predatorfreakToshi: Stop being an idiot.20:10
predatorfreakOf course I give a god-damn about making money.20:10
predatorfreakI don't give a fuck about learning things of which I will never utilise in my job or life.20:11
ToshiHS didn't challenge me either20:11
treacha question with a given number of answers, of which one is correct is pretty much by definition easier than a blank peice of paper where you're more or less supposed to read someone elses mind in order to get a full score.20:11
predatorfreakHow many times, working in IT, am I going to be asked to describe how to fucking calculate gravitational pull or someshit?20:11
treachwhen you get a job as a game programmer? :P20:12
predatorfreakNo one looking for an IT will give a fuck if I know how to calculate gravitational pull.20:12
predatorfreaktreach: I said IT.20:12
predatorfreakGame programming is an entirely different field.20:12
treachyeah, that's IT. :D20:12
predatorfreakNot here.20:12
treacha fucking telephone is IT:20:13
treach:D20:13
predatorfreakIT is more systems management and basic application programming.20:13
predatorfreakAlong with web development and such.20:13
predatorfreakDepending on what you specialise in.20:13
predatorfreakMy point being, learning shit like that has no relation to what I intend to do in life.20:13
predatorfreakI can memorise the fuck out of shit like that, but it doesn't mean I'm generally more intelligent than I was before.20:14
ToshiI'm detatching this screen now20:14
predatorfreakWhen I actually CARE about learning something or I enjoy learning something as a hobby, it means something.20:15
predatorfreakBut learning isn't a path to knowledge, the ABILITY TO LEARN is the path to knowledge.20:15
predatorfreakToshi: Don't ask me questions if you don't want my honest answers.20:15
predatorfreaktreach: Honestly, I can do every bit of shit you put in front of my face and learn it by formal method.20:17
predatorfreakBut I do not believe learning that way translates to actual knowledge gain.20:17
predatorfreaktreach: As an example, how much of your high-school biology class could you recall off the top of your head?20:18
treachno, not neccessarily. but what I've found out is that you tend to get a more complete view of the topics in a formal education.20:18
predatorfreaktreach: A complete view of topics doesn't translate to useful knowledge.20:19
treachand the biology, well, I could probably recall most of it.20:19
predatorfreakI might not have a complete view of biology, but when I go in to work in IT.20:19
treachthat's not what I meant.20:19
predatorfreakNo one is going to ask me to utilise knowledge of biology.20:20
treachI meant that you might learn a lot as an autodidact on things, but you tend to get knowledge gaps you're not aware of.20:20
predatorfreaktreach: All humans have them.20:20
predatorfreakName me every Roman emperor <_<20:21
treachsure, but with a formal eduaction you have more of a map to go by.20:21
predatorfreakor every Shogun of Japan, pre-Tokugawa.20:21
treachie, you know better what you don't know.20:21
predatorfreaktreach: I know what I know.20:21
predatorfreakComputers.20:21
treachyeah, and knowing what you know isn't always that helpful.20:22
predatorfreaktreach: Neither is knowing what I don't know.20:22
treachof course it is.20:22
predatorfreakNo, it's not.20:22
predatorfreakOHHH I DON'T KNOW HOW TO BUILD A SPACE SHIP!20:22
predatorfreakBIG PROBLEM!20:22
treachif you know what you don't know, you can get the needed knowledge if you need it.20:22
treachif you don't know what you're missing, it's very hard to get that knowledge20:23
predatorfreakObviously, any decently intelligent person knows what they do know.20:23
predatorfreakIf you know what you do know.20:23
predatorfreakFiguring out what you don't know is a course of logic.20:23
predatorfreakI know computers, but I don't know how to build rockets all that well.20:23
predatorfreakSee? I didn't need to go and take a course on rocketry to know I don't know how to build rockets.20:24
treachwho spoke of rocketry?20:24
predatorfreakIt's an EXAMPLE.20:24
treachcertainly not me.20:24
predatorfreakApply it to anything.20:24
predatorfreakKnowing what you don't know isn't gained from formal education.20:25
predatorfreakIt's gained from a course of logic.20:25
treachwell. it doesn't apply to what I spoke of.20:25
treachat all.20:25
predatorfreaktreach: Exactly what are you saying?20:25
predatorfreakAs far as I can tell, you're stating "formal education is a good way to figure out if you're an idiot or not."20:26
predatorfreakBut, correct me if I'm wrong.20:26
treachwhat I'm saying is that you might learn a lot about C or something by some book at home.20:26
predatorfreakSure.20:26
treachbut that doesn't make you an excellent programmer.20:26
predatorfreaktreach: Neither does going and taking a course on C!20:26
treachprecisely.20:27
predatorfreakI never said learning in an informal fashion made you a genius.20:27
predatorfreakI said that formal education is mundane and boring because it teaches things you may never utilise.20:27
predatorfreakEver.20:27
treachbut the point is that if you have a formal education you'll get more peices in a more logical fashion than you'll manage yourself.20:27
predatorfreakHow many of those pieces will you use?20:28
treachbecause you don't really know what's needed and what's not.20:28
predatorfreaktreach: Sure I do.20:28
treachso?20:28
predatorfreakI need money management skills, work ethic, a specific career.20:28
predatorfreakI need to be able to control my own spending habits, I need to be able to feed myself, plan a budget, hold a job, get a job, to keep working at a job.20:29
predatorfreakNone of those things are taught in any school in the U.S.20:29
predatorfreak(Besides a specific career, which is college-level only)20:29
treachhehe, right. I was thinking a bit more specifically.20:29
predatorfreakYou don't need 10+ years of school to tell yourself you need those kinds of abilities to succeed.20:30
predatorfreakYou need a parent who isn't going to lie to you and tell you "Just stay in school and you'll do fine in life."20:30
treachno. but that's basic things. that's not what I meant with a formal education.20:30
predatorfreaktreach: If I go to college to become an IT, which I shall.20:30
predatorfreakI'm going because I want to broaden my knowledge on a topic I already have.20:30
predatorfreakhave knowledge on*20:31
predatorfreakIf I wanted to become a biologist, I'd go to college to become a biologist.20:31
predatorfreakI'm not stating all formal education is pointless.20:31
predatorfreakI'm stating mandatory learning of things which a student may never use is pointless.20:31
treachok, you came off that way. ;D20:31
predatorfreaktreach: For example, would you go to college to major in astrophysics?20:32
treachbut somethings are useful to know anyway, even if you don't plan to be a chemist, historian or so.20:32
treachno.20:32
predatorfreaktreach: Sure, but I can learn them in my spare time.20:33
treachbut I've never been required to learn anything about astrophysics really.20:33
predatorfreakI'd rather get 10+ years of career training than 10+ years of generic knowledge.20:33
predatorfreaktreach: Bah, you and your non-American educational system :(20:33
thrice`10 years?20:33
thrice`I got in and out in 4, and took plenty of useless classes20:34
predatorfreakthrice`: In the U.S. you traditionally go to school from about age 6-7 to 20something.20:34
treachwell, you've never figured that those 10 years of basic training are supposed to make you at least a reasonably well educated member of a democratic society with the capability to make informed decisions?20:34
thrice`I meant college20:34
predatorfreakthrice`: I didn't.20:34
thrice`and I live in Michigan, remember20:34
predatorfreakBut honestly, I think kindergarten could be cut out.20:34
predatorfreakLet kids mature.20:34
predatorfreakLearn what they want to be.20:35
predatorfreakThen go to college for longer.20:35
predatorfreaktreach: I don't need 10 years of "how not to be an idiot", thank you very much.20:35
predatorfreakYou can't teach people how not to be stupid, it's impossible.20:35
treachtry "this is an atom", "this is how a nuclear plant works" etc.20:36
predatorfreakBesides, take 90% of the U.S. population and they couldn't recall 80-90% of the shit they learnt pre-college.20:36
predatorfreaktreach: Understanding how a nuclear plant works doesn't help me not-be-an-idiot.20:36
treach"this is where London is", "no paris is not located in iran", etc20:36
predatorfreaktreach: WHAT? PARIS ISN'T LOCATED IN IRAN?!20:37
predatorfreakCNN LIED!20:37
treachwell, it can help you make non-idotic decisions.20:37
predatorfreaktreach: You could also just be smart and use modern technology.20:37
predatorfreakand good ol fashion rational thought :D20:37
treachbut with out knowledge there is no rational thougth.20:37
predatorfreaktreach: Rly? I might not perfectly understand how nuclear power plants work.20:38
predatorfreakBut I can think rationally.20:38
treachit's *impossible* to make a rational decision if you don't know the facts, or how they relate.20:38
predatorfreakAt least, last I checked.20:38
* predatorfreak pops open head.20:38
predatorfreakYeah, I can still think rationally.20:38
predatorfreaktreach: Then you get more facts.20:39
predatorfreaktreach: None of this is rocket-science, it's a mere course of logic.20:39
predatorfreakand believe-it-or-not, I've never shit jackshit of "how to think rationally" in schools.20:39
treachthat would be a rational idea, but it will be very timeconsuming to do that every time you'd need it.20:39
clareHi, The way I see it, the puroose of a formal education on any topic is the teach you how to find out things, and how to apply what you learn.20:40
predatorfreaktreach: General knowledge on everything isn't useful.20:40
treachand yeah, I've understood that US schools are even worse than ours at teaching people to act rationally.20:40
predatorfreakI can hold general knowledge in physics, but I'm still not informed enough to make a decision on shit.20:40
clareIt doesn't matter muchwhat the topic is, especially in computing, becasue what you know know is ancient history in 3 years time.20:40
predatorfreakclare: Try 2 these days :P20:40
predatorfreaktreach: I agree that general education is a good thing.20:41
predatorfreakI disagree with almost every implementation present today.20:41
treachclare: unfortunately, that's wrong. :)20:41
clareOh! how?20:41
treachlook at DOS. For how long did it haunt us?20:41
treachIs it even dead yet?20:42
clareWell not as long as the greeks and romans20:42
predatorfreaktreach: I disagree with the concept of learning topics of which people will likely find very little actual use.20:42
treachhehe20:42
clarethis is becasue learning is not about topics, it is about how to find things out20:42
treachpoint is that there is no way to know beforehand what will turn out to be usefull or not20:42
predatorfreakI agree with teaching those who wish to learn them.20:42
predatorfreaktreach: By the same virtue.20:42
predatorfreakTeaching them it all beforehand doesn't mean any of it will be useful.20:43
thrice`are you in university, predatorfreak ?20:43
predatorfreakthrice`: Next year.20:43
thrice`where?20:43
clarethis is why in a good school, even in early postgrad years, you suddenly find there are things the teacher doesn't know - youa re on the edge of curresnt research20:43
treachclare: I was merely pointing out that anything you know will soon be ancient history -- and implicitly useless.20:43
predatorfreakthrice`: Community college, IT doesn't need a big university and it's cheaper.20:43
treachclare: meh, that that statement was wrong.20:43
thrice`predatorfreak: ah; I just graduated michigan tech :)20:44
claretreach not entirely, or we really would be repeating past mistakes20:44
predatorfreaktreach: My point is, if someone needs to learn something.20:44
predatorfreakThey'll seek out a method to learn it.20:44
predatorfreakand my other point is.20:44
treachof course, but generally speaking it takes a looooooong time until even the most archane knowledge becomes useless.20:45
predatorfreakWe can "teach" people things in a school, but that doesn't mean the majority of people taught that will retain it.20:45
treachone can't but try. and now you're confusing the objectives with the result.20:45
predatorfreaktreach: All our trying doesn't succeed 100% of the time and fails on those who loose interest in boring content fast.20:46
predatorfreakand, no, I am not.20:46
predatorfreakThe end result should be everyone retains what they learn.20:47
predatorfreakand that is patently false.20:47
treachthat probably means more that the means of delivery is flawed than that the knowledge is unimportant20:47
predatorfreaktreach: Tell me.20:47
treachI just did?20:47
predatorfreakIf you had to sit through a course on astrophysics.20:47
predatorfreakYet you didn't care about astrophysics.20:47
predatorfreakand seeing as you'll likely never use astrophysics.20:47
predatorfreakWould you be interested in learning it?20:48
clarefunnily enough, if it is well taught, you would get interested.20:48
treachafaik astrophysics isn't part of basic education.20:48
predatorfreaktreach: Answer the damn question with a simple yes or no.20:48
thrice`who cares?  it's also not required by common education20:49
predatorfreakclare: It depends on the person, but, yeah, I find physics more interesting than most shit.20:49
treachno, because it's a flawed question; astrophysics courses aren't given on any level where they are mandantory.20:49
predatorfreaktreach: Would you be interested in a basic biology course?20:49
predatorfreakEven if you might never utilise such knowledge in the real world?20:49
treachwell, I've already had that, but sure.20:50
predatorfreakYou're telling me you would ENJOY learning basic biology?20:50
predatorfreakAs-in, something you would do in your spare time.20:50
treachmight come in handy in some circumstances.20:50
predatorfreakFor fun.20:50
claremust be difficult not to use basic biology in the real world -even to do safe cooking20:50
treachlike if you have a garden or so, I guess some basic biology isn't bad.20:50
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predatorfreaktreach: So you're telling me, any course mandated by basic education, you'd sit through happily and enjoy as if it were something you'd do in your spare time?20:51
predatorfreakNever getting bored of the work?20:52
treachno, but I'd take the course since I realize it could be useful.20:52
thrice`of course - they come in handy20:52
clarethe simplest way is to read beyod the actual course material20:52
treachlike basic chemistry, geography etc.20:52
predatorfreaktreach: How much of your high-school education could you recall off the top of your head?20:52
treachboring subjects, but pretty useful.20:52
predatorfreakHow often do you use basic chemistry, etc?20:53
treachpretty much.20:53
treachdepends on what you mean, but I guess I could say "daily"20:53
predatorfreaktreach: I mean utilise the knowledge in an immediately apparent way.20:53
predatorfreakIn a way that would constitute it being worthwhile taking a chemistry course.20:54
treachbut that's the wrong approach.20:54
thrice`maybe not right away, but *much* quicker than had you not taken the course20:54
predatorfreakJust answer the question.20:54
treachI do, or do not do things because I learned about them in basic chemestry.20:54
treachI might not remember I learned it there, but I still know it, and use that knowledge.20:55
predatorfreaktreach: Could you say, tell me how to make gunpowder or someshit like that off the top of your head?20:55
treachand how does that relate..?20:55
treachI'm talking about stuff like, how and why corrosion occur, etc.20:56
treachmaking gunpowder is a pretty insignificant knowledge.20:56
predatorfreakSo is understanding corrosion really.20:56
predatorfreakYou can get through life just fine not understanding why corrosion occurs.20:57
treachno. because if you don't understand it, you will have real everyday problems with it.20:57
predatorfreakRight...20:57
predatorfreakLike?20:57
treachyour car turning into a pile of rust?20:57
treach"Geewhizz, I wonder what that brown stuff is?"20:58
predatorfreakPut a freaking sealant on it and wash it regularly.20:58
treachwhy?20:58
predatorfreakIt doesn't take a chemistry course to learn that.20:58
predatorfreakTo prevent rust.20:58
treachif you don't understand it, why would you take these precautions?20:58
predatorfreak..... IT DOESN'T TAKE A CHEMISTRY COURSE TO LEARN THAT.20:58
treachit's just magic brown stuff that appears and eats your car.20:59
thrice`ok, maybe *you* dont' need that, but there are alot of people who do20:59
predatorfreakAsk your god-damn parents ffs.20:59
thrice`ie, if I didn't learn about rust, and I design the car you're driving, you'll be pretty pissed at me20:59
treachit's just an example, of how you can leverage the knowledge you have.20:59
predatorfreakThere's so many ways of obtaining that knowledge beyond the god-damn text-books.20:59
thrice`your logic is very flawed20:59
predatorfreakthrice`: The people designing a car don't coat the dang car and paint it and such.21:00
treachand because you can leverage that knowledge you don't have to rely on others.21:00
thrice`predatorfreak: it's not that easy21:00
predatorfreaktreach: ... BULLSHIT.21:00
thrice`I had to use clear chromate trivalent coating.  would you have known that?21:00
predatorfreakYou need to rely on others TO PROCURE THE KNOWLEDGE IN THE FIRST PLACE.21:00
treachI think I'll stay with thrice`'s cars. :D21:00
predatorfreaktreach: Whether you learn it from a teacher.21:00
predatorfreakAsk a parent.21:00
predatorfreakor read a text-book.21:00
predatorfreakYou don't learn it by magically going into a school21:01
predatorfreakand POOF it's in your head.21:01
thrice`yes, you do21:01
thrice`!21:01
predatorfreakSo relying on others to learn things point is totally bullshit.21:01
treachyou're dead wrong, but I'm too tired to argue this wildly off topic stuff.21:01
thrice`and getting a shiny piece of paper proves you *should* be smart enough, and employers should give you a chance to prove it21:01
predatorfreaktreach: If you learn about rust from your parents.21:01
predatorfreakor you learn about it from your teacher.21:01
predatorfreakWhat's the difference?21:01
thrice`and if your parents took your approach and chose to not learn about it?21:02
treachthe depth of the knowledge gained.21:02
Romsterthat ya parants maybe worng the the teacher be right.21:02
predatorfreakFor all I know.21:02
predatorfreakThe teacher is wrong.21:02
Romster...21:02
predatorfreakThere's nothing stating they're right either <_<21:02
treachhe should have better odds than your parents.21:02
predatorfreakYour assumption is flawed on the idea that what the teacher is teaching is right.21:03
treachunless your parents are into metallurgy or something.21:03
predatorfreakWhich isn't always the case.21:03
treachI said *odds*21:03
treachI don't know the US school system, but our teachers usually know what they're talking about.21:03
predatorfreaktreach: If understand that water on metal for extended periods of time equals rust.21:04
predatorfreakand I learn that from mum and pop.21:04
thrice`if educators aren't intelligent, our society would not still be functioning21:04
predatorfreakor the teacher.21:04
predatorfreakBoth are equally right.21:04
predatorfreakUnderstanding the exact causes might be nice.21:04
predatorfreakBut knowing the basic knowledge is what's essential.21:04
predatorfreakand going to a school doesn't necessarily mean I retain an inch of what I learn.21:05
treachbut why does your american car turn to rust almost immediately over here?21:05
thrice`in *many* cases, in the professional, "spray it with paint" isn't a good enough solution to rusting21:05
thrice`professional world*21:05
treachdamn right.21:05
predatorfreakYour assumptions work on the conception that when you go into a school.21:05
predatorfreakYou can't learn shit.21:05
predatorfreakand that when you go out you're suddenly a multitalented genius.21:05
thrice`my parents would say paint helps protect from rust.  which, to an extent, it does, but my *teacher* told me the real causes and protection in school21:06
predatorfreakSorry, but school doesn't work like that no matter where the fuck you are.21:06
treachno, it's based on the assumption that there is a significant chance you'll get significant gaps in your knowledge if you don't go to school.21:06
predatorfreaktreach: Yeah and go back in history.21:06
predatorfreakStartling revelations ALWAYS required awesome schooling!21:07
predatorfreakNot.21:07
treachthrice`: that "real causes and protection" part might go well on other topics too. ;P21:07
thrice`hehe21:07
predatorfreakNo one is a genius, no one can know everything.21:07
predatorfreakLearning shit in a school doesn't mean you retain any of it.21:08
predatorfreakForcing knowledge upon people will only work if they care.21:08
predatorfreakHow hard is it to get that?21:08
thrice`of course.  but those are the people who don't keep jobs very long21:08
predatorfreakSure.21:08
thrice`i don't sit in my mechanical engineering job, get paid, and complain to my boss I can't complete my work because I didn't retain knowledge21:08
predatorfreakoh fuck this.21:09
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predatorfreaktreach: One last comment, them I'm going to bed.21:09
treach..not learned in the mechanical engineer course.21:09
predatorfreakI've had enough ranting.21:09
thrice`sorry, didn't mean to butt in :)21:09
treachthrice`: ^21:09
treachthrice`: no problem :)21:10
predatorfreaktreach: Your assumption is that we can't be intelligent, smart people without going and learning in a formal method.21:10
treachWRONG.21:10
predatorfreaktreach: Well from what I've seen.21:10
predatorfreakAll you care about is "blah blah blah school equals good base knowledge".21:11
treachI'm tried of you telling me what my assumptions are. I've stated them several times, please scroll up if you don't remember them.21:11
treach*tired*21:11
predatorfreaktreach: Is a person who doesn't understand rust any better off than one who does?21:12
predatorfreakIn reality?21:12
predatorfreakYes or no answers, none of this "it's useful knowledge" stuff.21:12
predatorfreakFuck it, I'm off to bed, I've had enough of this shit.21:14
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Services__plz little help me22:57
Toshi?22:57
Services__how i may install it - http://crux.nu/ports/crux-2.4/core/*22:57
Services__pkgadd ?22:58
Toshi"man prt-get" or "prt-get help"22:58
Services__I have it local22:58
ToshiIf you installed crux you most likely have the core packages installed already22:58
Services__no core! any others pkgs22:59
Services__anylike22:59
Services__cdrtools22:59
Services__fluxbox22:59
Services__etc22:59
Toshipersonally I'd recommend openbox23:00
Toshiyou can find instructions at crux.nu in the handbook23:00
Services__i do simply tar -xgvf port.tar.gz & make inst...23:01
Toshino23:01
Services__but i dont what do with ports23:01
Services__in gentoo i know emerge23:01
Services__:)23:01
Toshiput the httpup/rsync file in /etc/ports add the entry to /etc/prt-get.conf23:02
Toshirun ports -u as root23:02
Toshithen use prt-get to install ports23:03
Services__ok! thnx!23:03
Services__good!23:03
ToshiIt's in the handbook23:03
Services__i'm stuppid =)23:03
Services__lol23:03
Services__tjanks23:03
Toshino problem, have fun23:04
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