IRC Logs for #crux Thursday, 2008-05-01

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cruxbot[contrib.git]: lzo: 2.02 -> 2.0302:01
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cruxbot[contrib.git]: libcap: updated to 2.0903:44
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Rotwangi've sent email two times and it didnt get to contribML x|04:16
tilmandid you use the correct sender address/04:17
tilman?04:17
tilman(= the one that you used to subscribe to the ML)04:17
Rotwangyes04:17
Rotwangah it get to the ML04:22
tilmanphew04:23
tilman:)04:23
Rotwangbut why i dont get these mails?04:24
Rotwangstupid wp.pl >:|04:24
tilmanit shouldn't be the list's fault fwiw04:25
tilmanit works for me on the crux and crux-devel lists04:25
Rotwangill migrate to gmail or something04:27
RyoSanyone that can tell me a good noobproof app to cut videos and so on?04:42
Rotwangscissors04:43
Rotwanggood for vhs04:43
RyoSna i have videos from my digital camera that need some edit before i can upload them04:44
tilmanhaha Rotwang04:46
tilmanRyoS: predatorfreak might know04:46
RyoSmh ok04:58
Romsterdamn crux-contrib list on bugtracker i didn't see anything related to my ports because it was never assigned to me, tilman also could we have gnome kde xfce bugtrackers too?05:08
Romsteralthough i should of been looking myself at that so i'm to blame too.05:09
Romsteralso i don't understand this sentence.05:09
Romsteron  http://crux.nu/bugs/index.php?do=details&task_id=25805:10
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RomsterI found, that these files are compiled into sox, when the libao port is installed first. SOX is now not dependent on libao, please add this port to dependencies05:10
concorrhi all05:10
concorrhi Romster xP05:10
Romsterthe second sentance contrdicts.05:10
Romsterhi concorr05:10
concorrsomeone tiny image-viewer port?05:11
Romsterfeh05:12
Romsteror mirage05:12
concorri have feh, i need view all images at same time05:12
Romsterwell you never said that.05:12
concorrwhat? xP05:13
concorryou know, my bad english xP05:13
Romsteryou can load a numver of images and i can't remember if it's the page up/down keys or the left/right cursor arrows to change between pictures.05:14
concorryes05:15
Romsterwould mirage do what you want? gives a side panel http://mirageiv.berlios.de/images/ss2.png05:15
concorrfeh can create composite image with all the images05:15
concorri go...05:15
concorrokok05:15
Romsterhttp://romster.dyndns.org:8080/linux/ports/crux/romster/mirage/05:16
concorrit is that i need ;)05:16
concorrthx Romster05:16
Romsternp05:16
Romsteri tend to use feh for single picture fast viewing mirage for anything a lot more serious05:16
concorr;) mirage installed05:17
Romsterthat's fast05:17
Romsterif that doesn't do it it's hunting time.05:18
concorrmirage fast05:19
Romsteri did see a picture viewer destined for viewing camera pictures.05:19
Romsteryes mirage is fast but still a bit slower than feh05:19
concorrxP05:19
Romsterplus i use feh for my background setter.05:20
concorri use feh05:20
Romsteri was using imagemagick before i found out feh can.05:20
concorri haven't image list bar in mirage05:21
concorri make the same: imagemagic --> feh  xP05:22
RomsterView - Thumbnails Pane05:22
concorri haven't this option05:23
RomsterO_o05:23
concorrmirage 0.8.305:23
Romsterupgrade... 0.9.2 i gave you the link to what i beleave is recent05:24
Romsteryep 0.9.3 is current still05:24
concorrok, i update now the port05:24
Romsterhttp://romster.dyndns.org:8080/linux/ports/crux/romster/mirage/Pkgfile05:24
Romsterbeen thinking of throwing that in contrib.05:25
concorrthx05:25
Romsteror add this to get my private repo with that port also included http://romster.dyndns.org:8080/linux/ports/crux/romster.httpup05:26
Romstermost of my ports are in contrib though but not all.05:26
concorryes, i have your ports, but mirage is Version:      0.8.305:27
concorri donwload from mirage site now05:28
RomsterRotwang, there is settings if you log into mailman to set that option to receive a copy of what you type.05:28
RomsterRyoS, lives ?05:30
Romsterconcorr, my location has changed so the rsync or httpup file you have now be old.05:30
Romsteruse that one i pasted above.05:30
RyoSRomster: lives?05:31
concorrok Romster , thx05:31
Romsterhttp://lives.sourceforge.net/05:31
RyoSoh05:32
RyoSjust wanted to say yes i am alive :D05:32
RyoSuhm looks good let me see05:32
Romsterhttp://romster.dyndns.org:8080/linux/ports/crux/romster/lives/Pkgfile i need to update that.05:32
concorrRomster: mirage ok now, i have thumbnails pane now05:32
Romsterconcorr, will that do the job?05:32
Romsterand update the httpup file <<05:32
RyoSmmmh05:32
RyoSRomster: it depends on xmms?! Oo05:33
RotwangRomster: k, and sorry i sent same message twice05:33
RomsterRyoS, what the?05:38
RotwangRyoS: optional xmms05:39
RyoSaaah05:39
RyoSsaw that05:39
Romsterhmm not sure why i got that there i'll review that and it's not depends on it's a optional05:39
RyoSjust now lol05:39
Romstergawd..05:39
RyoSstill build fails :S05:39
RyoScp -f ./menu-entries/LiVES.desktop /home/pkgmk/work/lives/pkg/usr/share/applications/05:39
RyoScp: cannot create regular file `/home/pkgmk/work/lives/pkg/usr/share/applications/': Is a directory05:39
Romsterupdate to the new version or wait until i update it05:39
RyoSat make install05:39
RyoSupdated :P05:40
Romsteri'm updating it now.05:41
RyoSok tell me when you are done05:44
Romsterk05:44
Romsteryeah there site even says xmms (optional)05:45
RyoSuh well :P05:49
RyoShappens05:49
RyoSi will never install xmms though haha05:49
RyoSRomster: have you succeeded building lives?05:55
Romsterthat's why i listed it as optional05:55
Romsteri hit that error and i'm looking into it.05:55
RyoSah great05:55
Romsterand i'm also gonan run it though my safe-build script to make sure i got the dependencys right.05:56
RyoSok05:57
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sepenmorning06:05
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RyoShttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DpIAcRkbS6Q *cough* :D06:07
Rotwangim going off for few days, see (or chat you) monday (or late sunday)06:13
RyoShave fun :þ06:14
Rotwangthx ;]06:14
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sepenRomster, did you test my nice-to-have patch?06:34
Romstersepen, not yet did you see the comments i also made about a option to install the optional ports?06:46
RomsterRyoS, worked fine tuning be done soon.06:47
Romstersepen, actually --optional with no arguments to install the lot of optional ports and --optional=foo,bar to install just those prior to the port itself.06:49
Romsterjust ideas i've had for a very long time. and you know C++ that well sepen ?06:50
RedShiftRyoS: lol06:53
RedShiftRyoS: some nice moves there, sliding like micheal jackson, hardstyle06:54
sepenRomster, yeah I see comments07:05
sepenRomster, prt-get depinst `prt-get nicetohave foo`07:05
sepenit does the trick07:05
sepenoften I use prt-get update -fr `prt-get quickdep foo`, and it sounds similar07:06
sepen(or prt-get optional or alike)07:06
Romsteryes i've used that numerous times07:06
Romsterjust thought of something integrated since it would be used a lot.07:06
sepenyeah, I need something minimal atm07:07
Romsteri was thinking --optional for the lot and --optional=foo,bar for spefic optional ports. but maybe that is bloat.07:08
Romsterone thing i should comment about prt-get depinst foo bar doesn't work.07:08
thrice`it should07:09
Romstersay you wanna install bar and realise it hasn't got foo in it's dependency line.07:09
thrice`you mean muliple packages on the same line?07:09
Romsteryep07:09
Romsterwith depinst07:09
thrice`i thought I've done that all the time07:09
Romstertake libsdl it does not list mesa3d so i tryed todo prt-get depinst mesa3d libsdl07:10
thrice`usually when I first install crux on a new box, I run a single prt-get depinst package1 package2 package3 ...    and walk away for an hour07:10
Romsterhmm07:10
* Romster tests again07:10
RomsterRyoS, updated07:12
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RomsterRyoS, you here?07:18
Romsterhi treach07:18
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Romsterhttp://dsc.discovery.com/news/2008/04/24/dinosaur-bird.html07:35
treachyo07:43
treachwhee! http://www.adobe.com/openscreenproject/07:44
Romstercrap not more flash...07:47
aonoh my god how crap that seems07:47
Romstermaking everything compatible is nice but can't they use a better format.07:47
treachwell. I prefer an open flash to having to deal with "silverlight"..07:48
aonof course, it's nice that flash gets opened07:48
aonunless there are some fishy ndas involved07:48
treachmaybe we FINALLY can get a working flash player for 64bit too now..?07:48
aonbut that might encourage using them07:48
aonwhich is shitty07:48
aon"it" rather than them07:50
treachnot half as shitty as getting sucke(re)d into the mono/.net/silverlight black hole.07:50
aonmm07:50
Romstertrue .NET is pointless07:56
aonthank you mozilla.com for giving my download from a taiwanese mirror07:56
RomsterO_o07:56
aoni'm getting 890B/s on my 20M connection07:56
Romsterhaha07:56
Romsterand 20M were are you? i would love that speed.07:57
aonfinland07:57
aononly 1M up, though07:57
rxiRomster: im supposed to get around 10Mb07:58
Romsterah08:01
rxiif you live next door to the exchange you will get 24mb :P08:02
Romsteri'm on a crappy 512/128 so even 1MB/s up is way better.08:02
thrice`i'm only on a 4 MB service, and I can pull at around 2.5 mb/s o.O08:02
Romsteradsl2+ another words.08:02
Romsteri'm 5km away doubt i'd get more than 10MB/s if i was on adsl2+08:02
rxihttp://fremnet.net/article/216/adsl-theoretical-speed-calculator08:04
rxiyou would get like 2Mb08:04
aonDSL08:04
aonOperational Status      : ADSL2+, SHOWTIME.L008:04
aonUpstream Speed          : 987 kbps Fast08:04
aonDownstream Speed        : 18946 kbps Fast08:04
aoni'm not getting exactly full speed either08:04
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rxibetter than me .. im 7000k down and 700k up atm08:05
rxineed to update the router firmware08:05
aoni had ~800k up on adsl108:05
rxiwe dont have that upload speed in au08:05
aonalthough i guess that could've just improved when the handshake was redone08:05
rximax we can get is 512k08:05
aon20/1 is the best possible in a place like this08:06
joacimI get 1200 kbps up and 14500 kbps down =)08:06
aon6000 inhabitant town but quite close to a larger settlement08:06
aoni wonder what i could get in my other apartment08:06
Romsterrxi, i saw a 768Kb upspeed on one plan somewhere08:06
rxiim 15min drive from the centre of melbourne08:06
Romsterthat's quite close.08:07
rxiRomster: brunswick west08:07
rxithats out of peak hour :P08:07
aon24/1, well, that's as fast as adsl2+ goes i suppose08:08
Romsterah there.08:08
aonbut it's a bit hard as the place doesn't have a phone connection :)08:08
Romsterbeen though there.08:08
aonunless one of the rj45's can be wired as phone, dunno08:08
aonanyway, i have free 10M there, 1G per day quota, though08:09
Romsterrj45's are common to be used for phone lines too.08:09
aon10 both ways, but it's shared by all the apartments08:09
aonyes08:09
Romsterusually with a different face plate colour for that08:09
rxiive seen that sort of setup in office buildings08:10
rxii think its bridged rfc1498 or something08:11
Romsteryeah makes it easy for them to use cat5 everywhere.08:11
aonwell they didn't have any colour coding, but i guess it's all up to whether there even are phone lines coming to the house08:11
rxii meant they have a "link" shared throughout the building08:12
Romsterthey could use wifi too.08:12
rxiplug a dsl modem in and see if you get sync :)08:12
aonor a phoen08:12
aon*ne08:12
aon(gasp)08:12
Romsterlol08:12
rxibetter hope its not digital phone system :P08:13
treachRomster: rj45 *originated* as telephone cables IIRC. :P08:13
Romsteroh...08:13
treachbut that was cat 3 or so I think. :P08:13
aoni've never seen such a thing in apartments08:14
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rxitreach: bit of both i think08:14
aonthe only digital landline phones i've seen are field comms stuff08:14
rxisince rj45 is just a plug standard08:14
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treachahem, I was refering to the cable mostly.08:14
aonrj45 hardly is cable08:15
treachbut iirc rj45 or something similar was done for ISDN08:15
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treachaon: I know.08:15
rxiid wikipedia it but i cbf08:15
treachbut I think they have approximately the same origin.08:15
aonyeah, iirc we had a rj45 input in our isdn box years ago08:16
Romsterall i can remember is cat5 can handle like 350Mhz and ha sa impedance of 110 ohms, kinda pointless information.08:16
aonor probably not input as unplugging that would've disconnected the whole house :)08:17
aonbut from the box to the modem was cat508:17
aonwe had three telephone numbers that time iirc :)08:17
treachhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/8P8C :p08:17
aon693, 695 and 697, the last one is the telephone num we had before that and still have08:18
aonthe other ones were for dual or single isdn :)08:18
treachisdn never got big here, except with small businesses.08:18
Romsteryeah i still got the really older phone socket in this house.08:18
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treachour wonderful monopoly company priced it waaay out of reach for normal people08:19
rxitreach: same over here08:19
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Romsterhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/600_series_connector08:20
rxionly big business and really remote business use/used it08:20
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aonhere it was rather decently priced08:20
Romstermost places in australia still have them 600 series.08:20
aonhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Telefonkontakt.jpg08:21
aonis what we have08:21
rxithank christ they are going out of fashion08:21
aoni don't like rj11 that much, it's so undurable08:22
treachhttp://www.elbutik.se/PICTURE/95098-1.jpg08:23
treachthat's what we have here08:23
rxiill take rj11 over module a anyday08:23
rxilol .. looks like a tie fighter08:23
treachhttp://www.jumbo.se/product_images/12511_0_big.jpg <- better08:23
treachmmh. it's a very clumsy thing indeed. :/08:24
Romsteraon, that looks more  like a power outlet than a phone outlet.08:24
aoni see08:24
aoni've never mixed them up, since power connectors have two poles :)08:24
aonthe british style power connectors with fuses in them are really funny08:25
rxilol .. they need phone and power sockets that match up in the usa .. might cull some of the dumber ones off08:25
Romsterpower has 3 <<08:25
aonno it doesn't08:25
aonanyway, the fuse makes you think that the power net is a real mess and you can't trust it for a single moment08:25
Romstergotta have a earth unless it's double insulated.08:25
aonbut it's not a pole08:25
aonhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schuko08:26
aonand you don't really need earth anyway08:27
treachrxi: http://www.misco.se/Archive/Images/Products/elements/kablar_adaptrar/TEL-08/published/TEL08_stor.gif08:27
treachthat's the connector08:27
Romsterah half safe unless you plug them into another socket type with no earth08:27
aonit's just this new globalisation bullshit08:27
aonbefore we only had earth in kitchen and bathroom outlets08:27
aonRomster: all even remotely new installations have earth nowadays08:28
aoni think the law changed somewhere in the late 80's or early 90's08:28
Romsterwe have earth in every socket.08:28
treachsince when?08:28
Romstereven way back in the early years.08:28
treacho.O08:28
treachhard to belive..08:28
aonyep08:29
treachhere we used to have blank lines on porcelin isolators back in the days. :D08:29
aon:D08:29
aonyeah08:29
treachonly 110V or so IIRC08:29
treachbut anyway. :P08:29
aonhere it's been 220 from the beginning afaik08:29
aonthen they raised it to 23008:29
Romsterwas 240 now they standarised it to 230volt but 240 is within specs08:30
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treachwe used to have 220V too, that's where they went from 110V DC I think.08:30
treachnow it's 230V here too.08:30
Romstermaybe thought they has 117 and made it 120 over in the states.08:31
treach...08:31
aoni remember being told that some really old wirings were done with steel because copper was hard to get08:31
treachforget about the americans. they are totally retarded and utterly unreliable, at least wrt electricity. :p08:31
Romstertreach, heh08:32
treachaon: yeah, un-isolated steel wires on porcelin isolators. :D08:32
aonhehe08:32
treach<308:32
Romsteraon, interesting, i thnk coper was really expensive at one stage.08:32
treachit still is..08:32
Romsteronce they found out it was good at conducting electricity.08:32
treachthat's why people steal it like magpies..08:32
Romsterah08:33
aonit's like double the value what it was in early 2000's :)08:33
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Romsterno wonder they steal cables then.08:33
treachrofl; "'gNewSense' must be pronounced 'gee, nuisance'"08:37
Romsterlol08:39
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ximondaHi there!08:48
treacho/08:48
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ximondatreach: Did you get your acpi problems solved now?08:50
treachyeah08:50
treachmore or less. I still have to resort to "noapic", which no other dist have needed, but stuff at least works.08:51
ximondaWell, that looks like a kernel config thing.08:55
treachyeah.08:55
treachno clue what triggers it though, and that PCI: BIOS Bug: MCFG area is not E820-reserved, PCI: Not using MMCONFIG08:56
treachneither of which shows up in for instance debian08:57
ximondaYou can compare the .config, then the kernel sources/patches and/or ask at LKML.08:57
treachmmh.08:57
ximondaBut when it explicitely says: BIOS Bug: then it seems to be already a known issue...08:58
ximondaMaybe a BIOS upgrade would be helpful.08:58
treachahem.08:58
treachif it's bios, then it should complain with debian/fedora etc too. :>08:58
ximondaNvidia Chipsets are not really "nice" in terms of bugs they have.08:59
treachI bet they have some patches for it.08:59
ximondatreach: I don't know what debian/fedora does...08:59
ximondabut you could check... the code is all there.08:59
treachyeah. I'll guess I'll have to do some digging later.08:59
ximonda... or ask somebody from debian or fedora.09:00
treach:p09:00
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cruxbot[core.git]: file: changed to a more useful URL header12:10
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cruxbot[core.git]: wget: update to 1.11.212:13
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cruxbot[core.git]: bash: update to 3.2.3912:29
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cruxbot[contrib.git]: boost: 1.34.1 -> 1.35.013:22
cruxbot[contrib.git]: boost-regex: removed is in boost13:22
aonlol13:23
Romsteri honestly don't see anything funny.13:24
treachdamned. so that's where it's hiding..13:25
Romster"it's"...13:25
Romsterbetter not be referring to me sunny boy <<13:25
treachsunny? It's raining like shit here.13:26
Romsteri asked no seems to care i keept boot as one port.13:26
aonhere it is not13:26
Romsterreally..13:26
Romsterit's dark here but it wasn't a bad day for a change unlike the last two days of rain.13:26
aonhasn't rained for a while here13:26
aonwas hot as hell today and yesterday13:27
treachI'm not complaining though, it was really dry here, and the air was pretty sticky.13:27
Romsterah what do you class as hot as hell13:27
treachaon: maybe some of it comes your way in the next few days. :)13:27
Romsteri thought sticky came from humid weather.13:27
treachhumidity doesn't necessarily translate to rain.13:28
treachwhich is really uncomfortable..13:28
aonRomster: +20°C, at least when you have to carry furniture into a third-floor non-ac apartment13:28
treachoh. that's fun.13:29
Romstergawd..13:29
Romsteri had to work in a 38C summers day carrying heavy gear and sweating like a pig.13:29
aonwell, not that much furniture actually13:29
treachespecially if you have to do it when the air feels like there's a thunderstorm comming up..13:29
treachRomster: there are 20 degrees, and there are 20 degrees..13:29
aonbut then i slept in that same apartment in a sleeping bag that can take up to -30°C or something :)13:29
aonthat's about when the sweating began13:30
Romsterthat's todo with humidity if it's a dry heat or a humid wet heat.13:30
treachexactly13:30
Romsteri'm well aware13:30
treachand 20 degrees with high humidity is no fun to be working in.13:30
Romstertrue that's the worst type of heat.13:31
treachalso, we people up here haven fully gotten used to double digits temperatures yet. ;)13:32
aonyep13:32
treachit's only been like this for a few days or so yet.13:32
aonwell i've been wearing just a t-shirt outside for two weeks or so now13:33
aonexcept in the mornings13:33
treachheh13:33
treachdefinitely NOT in the mornings. :D13:33
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aonyeah, in the mornings i wear the combat jacket m/91 :)13:35
tilmanRomster: so you merged boost-regex and boost today?13:52
Romsterapparantly regex was in boost already but as iwas reading the site the regex was one of the need to be compiled separately but what i failed to learn then was that the jam build file did that automatically, i delayed removing boost-regex as i was planing to update it to the new boost version and then work on splitting the other boost library's apart. but since seeing Johannes reply to the ML i decided to just stick to as it is.13:57
Romsterif anyone complains now i can say you should of spoke up sooner.13:57
treachjesus13:58
Romsteri was also going to separate the python but since no one doesn't care if it's split or not i left it in boost.13:58
Romstertreach, what...13:58
treachare there no "." on your keyboard?13:58
treacheh, "Is there"13:58
Romsteroh that..13:59
Romsteri find it distracts me from my thought process.13:59
treachROFL13:59
treachwhat about the poor guy in the other end who is supposed to decipher that mess?14:00
Romsterso i use it sparingly.14:00
Romsterah should i redo that paragraph?14:00
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treachI don't know if that's a good idea, but you should certainly think about stuff like that in the future..14:01
treachbecause that paragraph is completely unreadable14:01
RomsterThe simple answer is, 'it's included in boost'. No need for 'boost-regex', since i have ditched the idea of splitting boost up into individual library's.14:02
treachmuch better14:02
RomsterI guess I'm also lazy when it comes to English.14:03
Romsteras i said on the commit of boost-regex it's included in boost.14:04
treachdamn, my teachers used to complain about my long sentences when I was a kid, but damn.. I wish I had come up with the reply you did.. :>14:04
Romsterrofl...14:04
Romsterthat was a classic eh.14:04
treach"'.' interferes with my thougth process so I use it sparingly"14:04
treach<314:05
Romsterthought <<14:05
Romstertrying to improve my spelling.14:05
Romstersince it sucks so much.14:05
treachwell, spelling is fine and dandy, but it doesn't save you if your structure sucks.14:06
Romstertrue, need to have good grammar too.14:06
Romsterand this to too drives me nuts as bad as their and there.14:06
treachGiving the person that is supposed to read your text a thought or two is a good idea in general.14:07
RomsterOkay.14:07
RomsterNow I see why you pick on me so much.14:07
treachfine.14:07
RomsterCan't decipher my sentence <<14:08
treachI'm not doing it because I'm mean (most of the time >:) ), but if you write stuff that is impossible or very hard to read so nobody bothers, what's the point?14:08
Romstertreach, it's okay, not having a go at you this time. And in fact, I appreciate the feedback you are giving.14:09
treach:)14:09
RomsterTrue.14:09
RomsterAnd it's even harder for users that don't have English as there native language.14:10
aonno it isn't14:10
Romstero_O14:10
aoni mean, non-native speakers don't seem to make outright stupid spelling errors that much14:11
RomsterIt's the grammar in most cases.14:11
treachthat's because we have learned stuff "the right way" without interfering crap comming from real life. :>14:11
aon:)14:11
Romstertreach, Lost the shift key now?14:12
treachlazy. :p14:12
Romsterhehe.14:12
aonbeing a native speaker has it's uses, though14:12
aoni can't speak worth a damn, for example :)14:12
Romsterlol.14:12
aonno, really14:13
treachanyway, it's less af a problem if someone stops using Capitals than if someone stops caring about commas and other forms of proper puncation, IMO.14:13
aonyeah, you don't really need the start or end punctuation in irc imo14:13
treachwell. If you have more than one sentence in a row propper end puncation is a good thing things might become mightly confused otherwise.14:15
treach;)14:15
treach"proper"14:15
aon"punctuation"14:15
aonbut that's true14:16
treachlol, right14:16
aoni once grepped my logs for such situations14:16
aonfound one instance of me having two sentences on one row and that was in all-caps :)14:16
treachsounds like predatorfreak on a rant. :D14:16
aon21:11 <@aon> "I HAVE BEEN DOING THIS SINCE THE SEVENTIES. WHAT DO YOU MEAN FULL-ASCII?"14:17
treachhehe14:17
treachwell, the "." is there. P14:17
aonyeah :)14:18
tilmanRomster: sounds good14:21
Romster:)14:23
Romstertilman, BTW what do you use boost for?14:23
RomsterOnly like 4 ports i know of use boost.14:24
tilmanlibxmmsclient++ uses boost14:24
RomsterAh OK, I don't see it in portsdb.14:25
tilmanit's part of xmms214:25
RomsterThat was my second guess.14:25
RomsterSo why doesn't 'xmms2' in contrib have boost listed?14:27
Romster./waf ?14:27
Romsterwtf..14:27
RomsterI guess boost is optional, since i don't see it on any other ports of xmms2.14:29
sepen<Romster> i was using imagemagick before i found out feh can14:30
sepenyou tried 'qiv' ?14:30
treachqiv uses gtk1 doesn't it?14:31
sepenuses imlib which depends on gtk114:31
treachfine, feh wins on KO. :)14:32
RomsterI haven't used qiv, and sepen yeah i was using imagemagick before i found out feh can set a background.14:32
treachimagemagic -> overkill++ :P14:32
sepen:D14:32
Romster"imagemagick"14:32
treachyeah, I didn't press the "k" hard enough. :/14:33
Romsterlol sure.14:33
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Romsterit's one of them spelled wrong words. that everyone hates.14:33
treachWell, happens to me every now and then, not sure if I type too fast for this crappy keyboard to keep up, or if I don't press the keys long or hard enough.14:34
treachpretty annoying.14:34
Romstertreach, Your good at English see if you can make sense of this: http://crux.nu/bugs/index.php?do=details&task_id=258 I know I can't, seems to be a oxymoron their.14:35
Romstertrue.14:35
treachmmh, I think he means he can't install it because of a footprint mismatch.14:36
RomsterI don't like this keyboard i have now I liked the built like a tank early IBM ones but my lat one died.14:36
treachI could be wrong though.14:36
Romsterah that might be it..14:36
treachI'd love a more robust version of the keyboard I'm using. the size is perfect, but the keys are not, and I'd prefer to not have it wireless. :/14:38
RomsterAs I have made all my ports build clean with no footprint mismatches if only the depends on line has what I have listed. Of course if the program can use more library's or other programs it'll also build them in too then give the footprint mismatch.14:38
treachsure, but you know people..14:38
RomsterWireless keyboards i think are a security issue, but then again they probably use a decent encryption these days.14:39
treachpkgmk should STOP refering to footprint mismatches in such a scary language IMO.14:39
RomsterI added a patch to flyspray to warn and not error on new files.14:39
treachhehe, well, security isn't much of an issue, it has a range of something like 40 cm. :P14:39
treachand no, they use REALLY crappy encryption14:40
Romsterhttp://crux.nu/bugs/index.php?do=details&task_id=22114:41
treach"Error on missing files"?14:41
RomsterAh that's not much i remember testing a mouse out that worked across the room in fact i couldn't go any further or i coudln't see the monitor.14:42
Romster"Warning on missing files."14:42
treachlike "FATAL OMG PACKAGE IS BROKEN"?14:42
RomsterError only if files are missing.14:42
treachwell.14:42
treachthere is a difference.14:42
Romsterand i make sure i have no footprint mismatches on the dependency's only in a clean chroot.14:43
treachso I wonder what you mean with error.14:43
treachlike it is now, you easily get the idea the package is FUBAR because of a few missing files, which is completely wrong most of the time.14:43
RomsterBeen over it before some one wanted it to send a exit signal that prt-get could use. But nothing else sends signals than 1 out of pkgmk.14:44
treachmmh, I know. But pkgmk doesn't have to make things sound like the world is coming to an end because of a few files.14:45
RomsterYeah so I build all my ports in a chroot and issue prt-get depinst foo14:45
treachI think the way it words the errors have caused us a lot more work than it had to.14:45
RomsterThen clean out the chroot with safe-build --clean, then start again on the next port.14:45
RomsterTrue it still makes the archive package, even when it says error.14:46
RomsterIt failed when it didn't quite fail.14:46
RomsterDoesn't bother me now that I know.14:46
RomsterWhat did bother me was the exting of prt-get because of new files in the footprint.14:47
treachmh, it also says stuff like "FATAL ERROR; libxyz.so is missing, world will end in two days" :/14:47
Romsterexiting*14:47
treachno wonder newbies get scared14:47
RomsterThat's why I bound in a clean chroot now. That avoids that.14:48
treachbut most people don't do that.14:48
RomsterLike one time xine-lib is broken because it's missing a file of outputjack.so14:48
RomsterWow does not take a genius that that is a output plug-in and no jack installed of course it wont build that.14:49
Romstertreach, Them most should be in my opinion.14:49
RomsterBut since it's there responsibility not mine, I just look after mine and hope they cotton on to what I do.14:50
treachok, this is one of those pointless debates anyhow I think. But I think you should look a bit at the issue from the perspective of someone who isn't all that familiar with crux, or even building stuff from scratch in general.14:51
RomsterMy way should not result in missing files, hence the "warn on new files patch". But of course building a package isn't a problem but it's still best to read it to avoid missing some bad new files.14:51
treachnot because they should be pampered, but because we get a lot of noise because of them.14:51
RomsterThrow it on a wiki page and point them to it.14:52
RomsterActually I should document how I build my ports for others to maybe follow.14:53
treachthat could be a worthy addition to the wiki. :)14:53
RomsterYes indeed.14:53
Romsternow back to keyboards. <<14:53
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RomsterI want one of them older style ones that are tough and got that nice colicky sound that i'm so accustomed too.14:54
Romsteri was looking at that oled keyboard but that's jsut a waste.14:55
Romsterjust*14:55
treachDas Keyboard FTW. :D14:55
treachToo big for me though.14:56
RomsterAnd I had a idea for a induction powered mouse mat for a cordless laser mouse, but someone already beat me to that.14:56
treachI hate the numerical keys, I never use them anyway, so they just take space on my desk14:56
RomsterYeah the Das Keyboard looks nice but i want the num-pad on the left hand side but not the page up/down and cursor keys so far I have failed to find what i want.14:58
RomsterI use them occasionally but i could learn to type that left handed, then I would have my mouse arm a lot straighter.14:58
Romsterbut i can't stand the cursor keys on the left also.. nor the 6 grouped insert,delete,home,end,page-up and page-down, oh and the other 3 keys above can be moved there not used a lot.15:00
Romsternearly thinking of designing what i want and getting a plastic mold of it.15:00
treachif you type correctly from the beginning, and use vim you don't need the edit keys. :p15:00
RomsterFew extra function keys, space the insert key more from the backspace key, have more led's for various assignable things.15:02
Romsterheh.15:02
RomsterAnd really kill that windoze key that does nothing.15:02
treacharr.15:02
treachand the equally useless menukey15:03
RomsterI have always cursed about the lack of a no insert led.15:03
treachdouble negations15:03
RomsterAh yes, windoze and menu key can be both nuked15:03
RomsterAnd 'Scroll Lock' i forgot what the hell that does.15:04
treachexactly what it says.15:05
Romsterheh15:05
treachnot in any modern os though.15:05
treachI think it works as advertised in freebsd though.15:05
RomsterYeah like Dos or earlier.15:05
treachI don't think it works in dos either15:05
Romstermaybe it was working for CP/M15:05
treachit's just one of those throwbacks to old terminal keyboards.15:06
treachlike sysreq, but that apparently still have some uses today15:06
RomsterI have messed with them old terminals i was one of the lucky ones to know what there like.15:06
treachterminals are cool. :)15:07
Romsteryeah the kernel can use sysrq still.15:07
RomsterYeah i used to get into the settings and change stuff.15:07
RomsterEverything in green.15:07
RomsterI so know if i did get a keyboard molded and i did all the electronics it would still cost me a lot.15:08
RomsterI also seen a straight key keyboard not the offset as the typewriters have i'd like to try one and see if i liked that better.15:10
Romstertreach, although this one looks nice too http://www.deckkeyboards.com/15:11
treachugh, what's that gawdy thing..!?15:12
treachmore blue light. :>15:13
aonhttp://www.verkkokauppa.com/productimages/orig/25336_01.jpg15:13
aonhow about that15:13
aoni like the concept of having a backlit non-caption keyboard15:13
aonit's just so pointless15:13
treachhighly.15:13
tilmano_O15:14
aonwhich reminds me, perhaps i should dig out the Model M and type a bit on it now that i have the house all to myself15:14
aon:)15:14
Romsterwhat the hell http://datamancer.net/keyboards/keyboards.htm15:15
aonoh yeah15:17
Romsteraon oh that one looks nice.15:17
aonnow we're typing :)15:17
Romstereven has the \ in the right spot too!15:17
Romsterand a single row enter.15:17
Romsterjsut how i like.15:17
treachgah, that's ugly..15:17
Romsterthose extra keys at the bottom and lack of cursor keys would take getting used too.15:18
aoni think i'll have a few trys at the facebook typing speed app with this one15:18
Romstertreach, no this is ugly! http://www.fentek-ind.com/kblpusbc.jpg15:21
treachthis one looks a lot like the one I'm using. http://www.a4tech.com/ennew/product.asp?cid=2&scid=101&id=42515:23
treachand that's not ugly as such, just bad taste IMO15:24
RomsterOMG cursor keys if only the insert,delete and stuff keys arn't a bitch to get used too.15:25
aonhard to get over 100wpm on the model m :(15:25
aonwell, the pressure needed is a bit different from the cheap logitechs15:26
treachheh, take it as some workout15:26
Romstertreach, Actually that keyboard doesn't look so bad.15:28
treachno I like it. it's not perfect, but it's pretty good.15:29
Romsterand i can type quite quick on the numpad too but i can always get a separate numpad for them occasions.15:29
RomsterI foyu removed the windoze and menu keys.15:29
RomsterIf you*15:30
Romsterwhat on earth it's got the \ | key duplicated on the bottom left as well as above the enter key.15:32
treachyeah, it's a bit weird.15:32
Romsterand insert key arn't near the backspace key now I like that.15:33
RomsterI sometimes bump it.15:33
treachno, it's a bit too close to left arrow though :p15:33
Romsterand later realsie my sentace has gone.15:33
Romsterrealise*15:33
treachrealize :>15:34
Romstercrud fix one problem make another.15:34
treachyeah15:34
RomsterRealise, I'm Australian not American with z's everywhere.15:34
treachhah, ok. but I thought it was the poms who wrote stuff with z's.15:35
RomsterI thought it was the Americans.15:35
RomsterBut yeah Australia and maybe British English also use s.15:36
RomsterSince Australian English originated from the British.15:36
treachand american english originated from..? :D15:37
RomsterThe Europeans I think but the Americans enjoy being independent so they went to change a lot of there words.15:37
RomsterAnd I think some got mistranslated somehow.15:38
tilmani think i didn't know the datamancer keyboards15:39
RomsterI arn't a big history buf.15:39
Romstertilman, I only found that one today.15:39
treachactually; think the brittish use "z" since it comes from french.15:39
tilmanthe Z is american english15:40
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treachrofl, merriam webster doesn't even acknowlege "realise"15:40
Romstergee.15:40
jesse_It is not American English. :D15:41
tilmanso who started using this "Optional" thing?15:46
tilmanlooks like it was either Romster or sepen15:46
Romsterhttp://www.ling.mq.edu.au/speech/phonetics/topics.html Interesting page.15:47
RomsterMight of been me...15:47
Romster'Nice to have' is so long.15:48
Romstereven 'Depends on:' should be 'Depends:'15:48
RomsterSeems Jue dislikes any form of the Optional/Nice to have15:49
Romsterjesse_, then who is to blame for all the Z's?15:49
Romsterwe use 'amazing' but when it comes to words like realise we don't spell it as realize.15:50
sepentilman, I start the discussion15:51
sepen*started15:51
tilmani meant the actual usage in Pkgfiles15:51
tilmannot the discussion15:51
sepenohh no idea15:52
tilmanin any case, it's VERY stupid to just start using stuff without telling anybody15:52
RomsterI think I'm to blame but I also think i saw it from another Package file also.15:53
RomsterSo what about the 'Group' metatag I have seen sprouting in xfce and gnome? (and possibility of other places but not verified)15:54
treachgrep Optional /usr/ports/*/*/Pkgfile should identify the sinners pretty quickly. :P15:55
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tilmanRomster: right, it's also not documented in the handbook15:56
treachyo predatorfreak15:56
predatorfreaktreach: Hi.15:56
* predatorfreak checks log for current conversation15:56
treachpredatorfreak: md5sum error on firefox-flash-plugin15:57
predatorfreaktreach: No fun!15:57
treachheh15:57
predatorfreakI didn't even start firefox yet :(15:57
treach:D15:57
thrice`flash has been a security fix for a little while, iirc15:57
aonwhat the fuck is Optional?15:58
treachthe more the merrier15:58
treachmilitary service in finland? :D15:58
tilmanhaha15:58
aon:D15:58
aonno15:58
aonor well, sorta15:58
treach;)15:58
aondoesn't make much sense though15:59
aoncontrib/transcode/Pkgfile:# Military service in Finland: avifile libtheora libdv libquicktime lzo mjpegtools libfame imagemagick15:59
* predatorfreak updates firefox-flash-plugin15:59
treach:p15:59
jesse_Romster: wish I knew why those spelling differences exist.15:59
thrice`USE flags ftw15:59
Romstersome how i get that image of that dude on radar that's that sparkie on one of them comedys, maybe it was hot shots..15:59
jesse_Maybe it just is a simple clue to determine which variant of English is used.16:00
sepentilman, just a list of maintainers that have Optional/Nice to have on their Pkgfiles16:00
sepen$ for port in $(( grep -e 'Nice to have' /usr/ports/*/*/Pkgfile; grep -e 'Optional' /usr/ports/*/*/Pkgfile ) | cut -d':' -f1); do echo -ne "$port > "; grep Maintainer $port; done | wgetpaste16:00
sepenYour paste can be seen here: http://rafb.net/p/FXKVwu97.html16:00
Romsterjesse_, I have no idea but I have noted it along time ago.16:00
predatorfreakthrice`: USE flags? GO BACK TO GENTOO YOU TRAITOR!16:00
treachthrice`: you mean like USE "American inglish" :>16:00
jesse_:D16:01
thrice`heh16:01
predatorfreakthrice`: As you can see, even mentioning USE flags brings out the wolves :D16:01
thrice`isn't that what Optional does ?16:01
thrice`;-)16:02
jesse_s/wolves/predatorfreak foaming at the mouth16:02
predatorfreakNot really.16:02
tilmansepen: want me to repeat what i said? :\16:02
* predatorfreak foams at the mouth and pounces on jesse_16:02
Romsteroptional is just a list to inform you of what else the port can take use of if installed.16:02
tilmanactually i only sent it to the ml16:02
cruxbot[opt.git]: firefox-flash-plugin: Update to 9.0.124.0.16:02
tilmanOptional just seems to be another name for nice-to-have16:02
tilmanwhich of course is totally stupid (and ugly)16:02
jesse_Vade retro, terrorsathanas.16:02
Romsteryes nice to have is so long.16:02
tilmanbecause nobody was told about it16:02
sepentilman, its not my question on ML's16:03
tilmanhellooooo16:03
treachspeaking about nice to have.. rtorrent now supports dht. :)16:03
sepentilman, yeah16:03
tilmansepen: i know16:03
sepenhelllooooo16:03
sepenxD16:03
predatorfreaktreach: Yay!16:03
Romstertreach, neat.16:03
predatorfreakOnly I'll stick to Deluge16:03
jesse_treach: another legal claim for suse and pals? :D16:03
predatorfreakBecause I'm a lazy fuck.16:03
treachjesse_: probably :P16:03
sepentilman, the fact is that sounds is not a valid meta, right?16:03
sepenI mean Optional/Nicetohave16:04
RomsterWith the opinion of the crux core team anything new in a Pkgfile seems frowned upon.16:04
RomsterAnd is likely to get bitched at.16:04
tilmanthat's it16:05
sepenok, then as I wrote, we should remove them no?16:05
tilmanf f s16:05
treache x t 316:05
RomsterSo to avoid it I should keep to the rules.16:05
RomsterAnd not even add to what is there.16:05
RomsterThen everyone is happy.16:06
tilmanif nobody knows wtf you're adding, what's the value?16:06
tilmanusers don't know about it -> users won't use it16:06
tilmanseems very pointless16:06
predatorfreakRomster: Tilman's stating that you should post on the ML about such things first, rather than just outright adopting it.16:06
sepenpff then move to README files, so prt-get can get the info16:06
tilmanpredatorfreak: he just s/nice-to-have/optional/ even o_O16:07
tilmanbecause the former was too long16:07
tilmanO___O16:07
* predatorfreak now distances himself from this16:07
predatorfreaktilman: To be honest, I don't care which is "official".16:07
predatorfreakThe only port I use them on is mplayer.16:07
RomsterThe discussion of it being added to prt-get was there ages ago, just i suck at C++ but sepen wrote that code that I have been wanting for a long time.16:07
Romsterthe former was crazy long...16:07
predatorfreakBecause the respective stuff is from contrib and can't be listed as a depend.16:08
treachbut this has a significant problem..16:08
tilmanpredatorfreak: if a good number of ports use "foo", then of course it's reasonable to use "foo", too16:08
sepenI don't think they are16:08
sepensynonymous16:08
tilmansilently starting to use "bar" instead of "foo" (with the same meaning!!) is fucking strange16:08
tilmanthat is my point16:08
tilmansepen: o?16:08
RomsterOr it's nice to have a reference of what could be added to the port but to keep it debloated it's what I chose not to include.16:08
treachdeps can get pretty tangled as is. Imagine the spaghetti following an introduction of "Optional" to prt-get...16:08
predatorfreaktilman: I suppose, I use Nice To Have as it came about before Romster started using Optional.16:08
tilmanyes16:09
predatorfreakand AFAIK is the "semi-official" form of Optional atm.16:09
tilmanabout 8 years before it16:09
tilmanwell, maybe 516:09
tilman;)16:09
RomsterIf Nice to have: became the standared I would sed all my Optional to Nice to have.16:09
predatorfreaktilman: If Optional replaced Nice To Have it'd be no sweat off my back, I could care less.16:09
predatorfreakThey both imply the same thing.16:09
treachpredatorfreak: I don't think Romster is to blame for "Optional"16:09
predatorfreaktreach: I'm not blaming him :D16:10
treachI don't know who started it. but I don't think it was him. :P16:10
tilman1.) users know they might want to grep/look for "Nice to have"16:10
predatorfreakI actually think Optional makes more sense than Nice To Have.16:10
tilman2.) silently introducing "Optiona" in it's place therefore is weird16:10
treachagreed. have fun with inertia though. :P16:10
tilmando we have an understanding so far or am i the only one left with sanity?16:10
treachpredatorfreak: ^16:10
predatorfreaktilman: Optional*16:10
predatorfreak:D16:10
RomsterI read it off another port but I saw it as a improvement and since prt-get does not use it yet it didn't seem bad to use it and the majority wins right.16:10
predatorfreaktilman: I understood a long damn time ago.16:11
predatorfreakBefore you started ranting on it :D16:11
predatorfreakThat's why I use Nice To Have.16:11
treachthat's why I keep my ports in private; that way I can write what the hell I want in them. :P16:12
aonno you can't16:12
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aonfor example, you can't write "shutdown -h now" in the beginning of build() and have an useful port16:12
sepenNice to have VS Optional is not the question for me, I find more important the fact that they are silent for users, and I wrote a patch for getting some benefits of this feature.16:12
RomsterJue is against it and Jue is like crux god around here so it seems more appropriate to delete that line all together.16:12
treachaon: who said anything about useful? :>16:12
tilmansepen: i know16:12
predatorfreaksepen: I agree with that.16:13
aonheh16:13
tilmansepen: i'm mostly annoyed about the fact that we now have two names for the same(?) thing16:13
sepenso what to do16:13
predatorfreakI've been asking for such a thing for a long time and have been too lazy to make such a thing :D16:13
aonyeah, what is the difference16:13
sepentilman, yeah me the same16:13
tilmanso, does anything think that Optional is *not* the same as nice-to-have?16:13
treachI think "Optional" is the better name, but good luck converting everyone to it.16:13
RomsterI'll sed all my ports to Nice to have (a long metta name)16:13
aon'cept nice to have has been around for years16:13
predatorfreaktilman: Just mandate one in the packaging guidelines and prosecute anyone who doesn't use it :D16:13
sepentilman, but you aprove this extra meta? then prt-get should have an extra option16:13
aoni'm *shocked about this recent addition*16:14
tilmanaon: i was about to write that to ml16:14
treach"litterally shocked"16:14
aons/*$//; s/d/d*/;16:14
tilmanbut it seemed to sarcastic ;)16:14
treach"crux is again missing things in the basics"16:14
predatorfreakBasics!!!16:14
predatorfreakSorry16:14
* treach takes cover16:14
tilmanmaybe i should fork crux16:14
tilmanand not publish the fork16:14
aonthat's so 2004 :)16:15
predatorfreaktilman: You're practically the head of CRUX already.16:15
tilmannot really16:15
Romsterthats it i'm dealting all of them lines in my ports good luck to those that cant' figure out what uses a port and what can use the port without looking though the source code and the projects web site.16:15
tilmanor i could leave #crux16:15
predatorfreaktilman: It's you, Simon and Jue.16:15
tilmanthat would fix my problems, too :p16:15
sepen...16:15
tilmanpredatorfreak: Simone* ;)16:15
predatorfreaktilman: You're the only core developer we can actually talk with outside of meetings.16:15
Romsterall it does is give headaches.16:15
treachtilman: geeNusiance? :P16:15
predatorfreaktilman: I'm American, we spell it Simon! :D16:16
treachthere's viper.16:16
Romsterkeep it simple don't ask questions is the moto.16:16
* Romster goes to get coffee.16:16
predatorfreaktreach: He's not a core member.16:16
tilmani even find it annoying that you people think that simone/jue/me veto anything16:16
predatorfreakAFAIK...16:16
tilmanvery fucking annoying in fact16:16
sepenx[16:16
treachpredatorfreak: I know, that's why I was confused. :P16:17
predatorfreaktilman: Who said I do?16:17
predatorfreakI get annoyed at how long some of my stuff takes to go in.16:17
predatorfreakBut I certainly don't think that.16:17
* treach doesn't feel he belongs in "you people" so he shuts up for the moment.16:17
tilmanpredatorfreak: the sha768 thing is very controversial unfortunately16:19
tilmani think we resolved the wget-ssl-cert-thing rather quickly eg16:19
predatorfreaktilman: sha256*16:19
predatorfreak:D16:19
predatorfreakand about the only one generating controversy about it is jue.16:19
predatorfreakI'm willing to change anything on technical grounds.16:20
predatorfreakBut I can't exactly work around personal feelings.16:20
tilmani'm not going to just overrule jue :x16:20
treachpredatorfreak: btw, what version did you update flash to?16:21
tilmananyway, i said we'd discuss it and i still think we'll do so16:21
tilmaneventually.16:21
predatorfreaktreach: cruxbot must be bork.16:21
tilmani don't see it fitting my schedule yet16:21
treachno need to push it either.16:21
predatorfreakI updated it to the latest 9.0.124.016:21
tilmansee? constant accusations and lies16:21
tilman;)16:21
predatorfreaktilman: Relax :D16:21
treachpredatorfreak: damn funny.16:21
treachah, NOW I got a new version..16:22
predatorfreaktilman: I've been running a newer version of my SHA256 patch here for a long while.16:22
predatorfreakIn fact my personal tree has sha256sums for every port.16:22
Romsternearly all my ports have sha256 sums now.16:23
sepenand what?16:23
treachI don't get what the problem is with  using sha256, but on the other hand, is the issue really that pressing?16:23
tilmantreach: the git-to-rsync cronjob runs every 5 minutes only16:23
treachwell, I should have been in that window before16:24
Romsterwhy can't the git-rsync be ran from a git commit hook like cruxbot uses?16:25
tilmanit probably can16:25
Romsterwould save cpu cycles on the server every 5 minutes.16:25
predatorfreaktreach: TBH, I would personally prefer to use GPG signatures for verification.16:26
sepenI think cronjob its more secure than copy individuale files on post-commit16:26
predatorfreakBut not a lot of projects ship with GPG signatures.16:26
Romstersepen, git could run the same cronjob file..16:26
sepenohh nice point, sepen -116:26
sepenxD16:26
aonre: keyboards, is there a more beautiful sound anywhere in the world: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yPw_xmV9bzQ16:27
aon:)16:27
tilmanpredatorfreak: i thought of having a cruxmaintainers keyring, so the maintainer would sign the file after he made sure its okay16:27
predatorfreakI do believe that GPG signatures would basically murder all point for SHA256 sums and MD5 sums though16:27
treachpredatorfreak: yeah. but I was a bit curious about what the showstopper with sha256 is.16:27
predatorfreaktreach: ATM, Jue's personal feelings towards MD5.16:27
treachit can't possibly be that jue fears for his i586's16:27
treach:D16:27
predatorfreaktilman: I'd be willing to do that.16:27
predatorfreakand I could prep a patch for pkgutils16:28
tilmanit's not about willingness or about the implementation itself16:28
tilmanit's trivial anyway16:28
tilmanthe point is: is it the right approach?16:28
tilman:)16:28
predatorfreaktilman: It's better than checksums.16:28
Romsteraon, didn't even show what he typed!16:28
sepenpredatorfreak, reasons?16:29
tilmaneg you'd still want to have checksums for random-private-repo16:29
Romsterbut seems like a fast typer.16:29
tilmanthe keyring thing would only work for official-ish repos16:29
predatorfreaksepen: It's a lot less likely to be borked any time soon.16:29
aonRomster: that was me16:29
Romsteraon oh really..16:29
aonRomster: 105wpm on the facebook typing speed app with 0 errors16:29
predatorfreakchecksums/hashes are cracked relatively quickly.16:29
Romsterand that type M looks like a keyboard i have here but not on this pc.16:30
Romsteraon nice.16:30
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predatorfreaktilman: It would be possible to mandate that core/opt/contrib/etc would use keys.16:30
Romsteri can't beat that...16:30
Romstermaybe some years ago before my typing went downhill..16:30
predatorfreakand that people could publish a key for their personal repos as well.16:30
aonhow can one's typing go downhill16:30
predatorfreak(or just use checksums)16:30
Romsterlazyness.16:30
aoni mean, the touch disappears for a while if you don't see a computer for like a month16:31
Romsterand i think i did too many drugs and booze16:31
aonbut it takes half a hour rto get back into ti16:31
predatorfreakIf the details on such a scheme were hammered out though, I'd be willing to make an implementation.16:31
aon*it16:31
treachmuscle memory ftw16:31
aonwell, can't comment on that16:31
Romsteri can type quickly but i introduce a lot of typos.16:31
treachO'RLY? :P16:31
Romsteryes really16:31
treach;)16:32
tilmanunposible16:32
predatorfreakRomster: I can type just fine fast :D16:32
predatorfreakWell, semi-fast.16:32
Romsterdamn you.16:32
aondon't really think it counts if you typo like hell16:32
treachRomster: chill, just kidding. :)16:32
Romstercrap touch typing so needs working on i'm really slow.16:32
Romsteri've goen to a lazy my own style of typing.16:33
Romstergone*16:33
aonit doesn't really need working on16:33
Romsterwhy not?16:33
predatorfreakaon: I do not typo that commonly :D16:33
predatorfreakI'm not as bad as Romster, at least :P16:33
Romsterheh16:33
aonit should just come along when you type enough16:33
Romstertreach, i'm ok dude.16:33
Romsteri know you were kidden,16:34
aonof course other linguistical problems are a totally different issue16:34
Romsteraon problem is i don't enough.16:34
Romsterplus my left to right coordination and typing in sequence is hard at times.16:35
Romsterand my bad spelling to top it all off.16:35
predatorfreakis I don't enough? o.O16:35
predatorfreakRomster: Hurt brain does.16:35
aonyes, i don't think you can type very fast if you can't think grammatically correct at least as fast as you type16:36
RomsterI can tink but typing and thinking is a burden.16:36
Romsterthat's why i try to type my toughts as fast as i can.16:36
aonmmh16:36
Romstersee i still stuff up typing.16:36
treachmy my.16:36
treachmay I recommend some filtering?16:37
Romsteronly thing i'm good at is electronics.16:37
predatorfreaktreach: Adaptive Grammar Filter? :D16:37
Romsterthat i'd have a advantage over.16:37
treachnot all ideas are worth spamming the world with, and the time gained by filtering out the worst ones could be used to improve spelling and grammar.16:37
treachwin-win16:37
treach:)16:37
Romsteroh damn you treach16:38
Romstersome cheap shot that was <<16:38
treachwhy now? Do you think you're the only one with bad ideas?16:38
Romsternope I'm full of bad ideas along with good ones too.16:39
tilmanpredatorfreak: problem with signatures is that you need to have one sig file per source file i think16:39
RomsterIt's when i try to impalement them is when i go wrong.16:39
tilmannot sure whether you can stuff a bunch of them in .sources.sig or so16:39
treachreality sucks. :>16:39
aon"implement", for $deity's sake16:39
aonthat really took some thinking :)16:39
treachrofl16:39
treachI didn't notice, gotta be getting tired.16:40
predatorfreaktilman: Well, I'm not certain either XD16:40
treachimpaling bad ideas, now that's a fitting end. :D16:40
aonyep16:40
Romsterah crap...16:40
Romsteri hate spell checkers the cunts..16:40
tilman:o16:41
tilmanaon: nice typing there16:41
Romsterimplementing*16:41
aonthe point is the silence of the keyboard, though16:41
aoni wonder if it'll upset the neighbours at the other flat if i take it there16:41
tilman:D16:41
Romstereh keyboards have to be clicky.16:41
Romsterlike aon's16:42
Romster:)16:42
predatorfreakKeyboards just aren't fun if they aren't clicky!16:43
predatorfreakI forget I'm typing on those silent keyboards.16:43
aonsomeone said that the hhk has so soft touch that you sometimes forget you're pushing some key16:43
Romsterhah16:43
Romsterif it don't click it arn't being pushed hard enough.16:44
tilmanhhk = happy hacking keyboard?16:44
predatorfreakaon: Trying to rival Romster? o.O16:45
aontilman: yes16:46
aonpredatorfreak: what?16:46
predatorfreakaon: Your line above.16:46
predatorfreak"has so soft touch"16:46
aonwhat's wrong with it?16:46
RomsterO_o16:46
* Romster shrugs.16:47
treachsounds more like a consequence of not having english as your native language16:47
predatorfreakShouldn't it be more along he lines of has so soft a touch?16:47
predatorfreak-he +the16:47
aonprobably16:47
treachpredatorfreak: that's a bit petty a complaint imo. ;)16:47
aonbut that's a bit more subtle than replacign "'ve" with "of", for example16:47
aon*ng16:47
predatorfreaktreach: Well, Romster was probably raised speaking Japanese or something then :D16:48
RomsterThat is even bad gramma.16:48
tilmanaon++ :D16:48
treachhaha16:48
RomsterNo, English sadly..16:48
predatorfreakRomster: You misspelled Grammar on purpose.... right....16:48
tilmanyeah, it should of been grammer16:49
treachlol16:49
tilmancouldn't resist there16:49
treach:>16:49
Romsterer 'grammar' typo that time.16:49
aonguhrammair16:49
treachtypical one of those issues that stems from spoken lanuage.16:49
Romstergrammar not er16:49
treachwhich is why we "non-natives" get some things right more often. less bad influence. :p16:50
Romsterif you hang around me too long that will change.16:51
treach:D16:51
predatorfreakRomster: Well, you don't seem to affect me all that much.16:51
Romstersorry i couldn't resist.16:51
howlheh, there's been a lot of language talk in here tonight. :)16:51
Romsteryeah16:51
predatorfreakSadly, I don't seem to influence your English much either :D16:51
Romsterheated debate now back to bordomness.16:51
Romster<_<16:51
predatorfreakRomster: Stop stealing my emoticons!16:52
predatorfreak<<16:52
howlThat's the greatness of IRC. People like me, who don't know jack about English, learn English by being trolled or flamed for any random spelling mistake or grammatical mistake we do. :)16:52
Romsteryou stole mine <<16:52
treachRomster: otoh, if you hang around here enough you should show equal amount of improvement as we show degradation. :D16:52
predatorfreakRomster: I did that for comedic value :)16:52
predatorfreaktreach: But eventually, that will reverse itself.16:53
predatorfreakand he'll show an equal degradation.16:53
Romstertreach, you are a smartarse arn't you <<16:53
tilman=^.^=16:53
treachwhy so negative?16:53
predatorfreaktilman: BURN IT WITH FIRE16:53
* predatorfreak burns the Japanese happy face16:53
tilmanit's a cat16:53
Romstereh guess it's comedy.16:54
predatorfreakIt's a Japanese happy face.16:54
Romsteri tend to pick everything to bits.16:54
aonhowl: i learned away from the only Finnish mistake i keep doing by irc16:54
predatorfreakand even if it is a cat.16:54
aonthere was a bot that nagged about it on one channel :D16:54
predatorfreakBurn it anyway! :316:54
treachjapanese have facial hairs like that? :D16:54
predatorfreaktreach: Why not?16:54
* treach goes to find out what "morrhår" is called in english16:54
howlaon, heh.16:54
tilmanit's a cat's whiskers16:55
treachah right.16:55
Romsterof course.16:55
predatorfreak... still don't see it.16:55
treachI knew that, I had just forgotten about it.16:55
* predatorfreak burns it anyway16:55
Romsterpoor kitty.16:55
treachI don't talk about whiskers that often. :D16:55
tilman= whiskers16:55
aonyou don't? :O16:55
Romsternot old enough <<16:55
predatorfreakCats suck anyway, get a Dog.16:56
Romsterheh16:56
treachcats rox16:56
treach:D16:56
* predatorfreak starts Religious debate16:56
tilmanwe've already established that cats rule16:56
RyoSRomster: did you fix bulding lives?16:56
predatorfreakDOGS ROX!!16:56
RomsterRyoS, ages ago16:56
RyoSpredatorfreak: second that16:56
RyoSRomster: uuuh okay16:56
Romsterand i said oyur nick a few times.16:56
aoncats are preferred, yes16:56
RyoSi will try tomorrow16:56
Romsteryour*16:56
tilmanif i wasn't already opped, i'd get +o now for dramatic effect16:56
predatorfreakRomster: Back us here!16:56
RyoSRomster: your right16:57
RyoSsnap16:57
RyoSi was away hehe16:57
*** aon sets mode: +o tilman16:57
aon:D16:57
tilmanoh nice16:57
predatorfreaktilman: You're always op.16:57
tilmancan't op myself though16:57
*** tilman sets mode: +o aon16:57
predatorfreakSo, moving on, vi or emacs?16:57
predatorfreak:D16:57
treachvim16:57
treach:D16:57
aonnvi or emacs16:58
predatorfreaktreach: ++16:58
aonlately mostly nvi16:58
tilman<cruxbot> emacs: dropped, because it just sucks.16:58
predatorfreakaon: --16:58
treachhah16:58
tilman;D16:58
predatorfreakHehe16:58
RyoSvim16:58
predatorfreakNot really much of a religious debate if everyone here uses vim or some variant of vi :D16:58
treachemacs dropped for beeing to fat to fit in a lightweight dist.  :p16:59
treachtoo*16:59
aonemacs has been dropped?16:59
Romsterrofl..16:59
tilmanno, i faked that16:59
aoni thought16:59
tilmanno offense ;)16:59
RyoSgotcha16:59
Romsteroh man16:59
aonit was enough of a *shock* that my employer was sold16:59
aonand if someone had dropped my editor...16:59
* predatorfreak goes drop :317:00
tilmanthe finnish army has been sold?17:00
treachthe finnish military got outsourced? :D17:00
* Romster laughs.17:00
tilmanby who? the swedes?17:00
predatorfreakHahaha17:00
treach^517:00
aonthe army is not my employer17:00
tilman.fi is now using private military contractors, too17:00
tilman;)17:00
morlenxusHm, which cd burn application do you use?17:00
tilmanblackwater etc ;)17:00
predatorfreakmorlenxus: cdrkit :D17:00
aoncdrkit, surprisingly17:01
tilmancdrecord, quelle surprise17:01
morlenxus:)17:01
tilmanaon: oh, didn't we want to swap cdrtools for cdrkit sometime?17:01
treachtilman: what does stallman say about cdrecord? :p17:01
Romstercdrecord, a mix of command line and sometimes k3b17:01
morlenxusAnd does someone use a gui application?17:01
morlenxusah17:01
aontilman: yes17:01
morlenxusSomething for gtk? :)17:02
predatorfreaktilman: opt is still cdrtools.17:02
Romsterwould like a non kdelibs burner gui.17:02
treachk3b is probably the best gui, all gtk uis sucks.17:02
treachat least all I've tried.17:02
aonthere just should be some discussion about whether we care about the name incompatibilities or not17:02
tilmanpredatorfreak: yes17:02
predatorfreaktilman: cdrkit probably should outright replace cdrtools by now.17:02
treachgraveman had some promise, years ago.17:02
aondvd+rw-tools work when you export one (1) environment variable17:02
Romstermorlenxus, not sure but i'd be interested in a gtk version.17:02
predatorfreaktreach: It hasn't been developed since :D17:02
treachexactly17:02
aonin k3b you can define the binary paths yourself17:03
treachit went nowere really fast17:03
aonand i have a hard time caring about guis17:03
* treach wonders if there's a emacs plugin for it.17:04
tilmanC-m-BURRRRRN17:04
treach:p17:04
Romsterthat reminded me of that cartoon site.17:04
aonwouldn't be hard to make one17:04
RomsterNow i associate butterfly's with the word emacs.17:05
aondoesn't seem like there is a cd record mode for emacs17:05
predatorfreakRomster: xkcd?17:06
Romsterpredatorfreak, that's it.17:06
tilmanyou mean xckd?17:07
predatorfreakhttp://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/zealous_autoconfig.png17:07
predatorfreakxkcd!!!17:07
tilmanhttp://xckd.com/17:07
predatorfreaktilman: It's xkcd.17:08
aonhaha17:08
predatorfreakEven according to the site :D17:08
tilmansurely at xckd.com, there must be something called xckd17:08
tilmanapparently you know nothing about the intarwebbs17:08
predatorfreaktilman: I'm an interwebs master, tyvm17:09
RomsterOMG jaeger has deleted all of his private ports.17:12
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RomsterAnd he hasn't fixed the ones in contrib yet and he hasn't been on irc for a while...17:13
Romsterhmmz17:13
aon*SHOCK*17:14
Romsteri wouldn't be suprised if gnome goes byebyes17:15
Romsterwhich makes me think gone should be put in a git repo on crux.17:16
treachmv /mnt/internet/gnome /dev/null17:16
Romsterthat's not funny. i don't use gnome but i'm sure someone would be sad if it went.17:17
tilmanIf you like coding then you are very lucky man because no one wants to go to the job on Monday with half-eyes closed.17:17
tilmanjaeger wouldn't just kill the gnome repo without warning or without packing it up in a tarball first17:17
tilmanYou and the code are one identity, not two.17:18
tilmanaon: ^^ church material17:18
tilmansounds like a morpheus quote ;)17:18
aonhehe17:20
aoni'd like to put the church back running but somehow it seems pointless now that he left us alone17:21
tilmanit's still good for a laugh every now and then17:22
aonhttp://lists.blagblagblag.org/message/20071203.161202.fac0915d.en.html17:24
aonapparently that's where he's at now17:24
tilmanhttp://lists.blagblagblag.org/message/20071229.161745.453834fa.en.html17:26
tilman;D17:26
aonhaha17:28
* aon is reading his blog17:33
aonapparently he has an IT job nowadays :O17:33
sepenhehe, arnuld OMT17:33
treachpoking fun at arnuld feels like laughing at mentally retarded people. :/17:35
aoni'm not making fun of him really17:35
Romsteroh gawd not arnuld17:36
Romsterwell at lest he left crux alone.17:37
Romsterleast*17:37
Romsteri kinda find it funny how he worded that.17:39
RomsterI just removed my distro named Arch17:39
Romsterlike he owns it?17:39
Romsteryeah right.17:39
treachagain. he probably doesn't have english as his native language.17:39
treachI guess it's something creeping trough the cracks in his understanding of english17:39
Romsterlol GNOME to configure CUPS17:41
Romsterah.17:41
Romsterin any case i think he is more loopy than any of us here.17:42
treachthat's probably true.17:42
sepen$ echo "later, Im going to bed" | lpr17:42
treachbut sometimes language problems makes you sound more loopy than you are.17:43
* sepen z.zzz.ZZZ.zzz.Z.17:43
treachI mean if I say "kör in bilen i garaget", which is a perfectly sane sentence, it means "park the car in the garage". but a straight translation would be "drive in the car into the garage", which sounds really stupid.17:46
Romsteryeah translations can cause funny sentances.17:47
treachI could probably find even worse examples but none comes to mind right now.17:47
RomsterEven translate it back and for a few times for even more jumbledness.17:47
Romsters/for/forth17:47
treachbut that's from one germanic language to another, imagine if you're translating from some other language with a totally different base..17:48
aontreach: isn't it more like "in the garage" than into17:48
treachthat's when you get those silly bablefish crap17:48
treachno17:48
aonwell, why not "till", then17:49
treachthat would be "kör bilen i garaget" :P17:49
aonah17:49
aonright, didn't think of the in like that17:49
treachbut you're supposed to put the car "in" the garage, that's why "till" is not an option17:49
aonyeah17:50
aonyeah, this isn't quite the confusion i was originally thinking about17:51
aonbut "hitta i ..." is stupid when directly translated to finnish17:51
treachyou mean like "hitta i staden"?17:51
aonyep, the logical thing from a finnish pov would be 'från', i guess17:52
treachmmh.. that sounds wierd. :)17:52
Romsterinto is more like crash into, which reminds me a old man drove a car into the bank the other day.17:52
aonyep17:52
aonwe had some swedish-speaking people in the previous place i was serving in, it was quite funny17:53
aonlike one of them didn't know some nouns in finnish at all so it was a bit interesting at times17:54
treachI'm still grappling with the concept of using "from" in any same context as "find in" :P17:56
treachrofl, apparently novell have a lawyer in the ongoing trial with sco called "David Melaugh". Wonder if that's a coincidence. :D17:57
aonyeah, we find stuff from somewhere instead of in somewhere17:59
aonhaha :D17:59
treachah. I see.17:59
treachso you find your hanky from your pocket rather than in it?17:59
aonyeah, "löysin nenäliinan taskustani" instead of "löysin nenäliinan taskussani", the latter one sounds like you were entirely in your pocket and found a hanky while there (from an unspecified location)18:01
treachhaha18:01
treachok.18:01
aonsee how it's just a one letter difference instead of changing a whole word :)18:01
treachI understand. :)18:01
treachMust give room for some pretty amusing typos. :O18:02
aoncan't think of good examples18:03
aonbut on a completely unrelated note, if you try to type cunt in finnish and accidentally press the key left from each key you type "curry"18:03
treach:)18:04
aoncunt as in the female organ, not like a person who's an asshole18:04
aonmust've been intentional while designing qwerty :)18:04
treachmmhh, I recently heard someone use "rövhatt" as an insult in swedish.18:05
treachthat was pretty amusing.18:05
treach:)18:05
treach(asshat)18:05
aonhehe :)18:05
aonwouldn't really work in finnish either18:07
aonor at least it sounds like some kindergarten insult :)18:08
treach:p18:08
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treachnew kernel \o/19:14
aonwow19:18
aonnot going to update, though, that's already done for this quarter :)19:19
treach:>19:19
aonopenbsd 4.3 was also released19:20
aonalthough nobody here probably uses it :)19:20
treachwell, you aren't "nobody" are you? :p19:20
treachcan't I say I care too much about obsd myself though. teo lost all credibility a long time ago, and afaik there isn't anything you can't do with it that there isn't any other system that already does -- frequently better.19:22
treachI wonder how long the will stay even remotely relevant in a world increasingly going multicore.19:23
treachs/the/they19:23
treachkernel done, reboot! :P19:25
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treachLinux 2.6.25.119:28
treach\O/19:28
predatorfreaktreach: OpenBSD is infinitely easier to setup as a router than Linux.19:29
predatorfreakNot to mention, it has SANE fucking QoS.19:29
predatorfreakaltq is sane, tc is like trying to understand random letters and numbers jumbled together and called a "language"19:30
treachI wouldn't know, I've never tried. but ease of use usually lies with familiarity :>19:30
predatorfreaktreach: You find me anyone familiar enough with tc that wouldn't see altq and go "Oh My God it's so much fucking nicer." and I'll give you a cookie.19:30
treachwhat about the guy responsible for tc?19:31
treachcan I have my cookie now? :>19:31
predatorfreakWhoever wrote TC was a bloody madman.19:31
predatorfreakThere's no fucking way to make tc more usable than altq.19:32
predatorfreakSimply because the syntax is like getting raped by a god-damn T-Rex.19:32
treachwell, I never said there was _nothing_ it was good for.19:33
treachjust that most things work just as well on other systems, and frequently it works better there.19:33
treachI could have said any other system rapes obsd in those areas if I were a petty person, but I'm not, so I didn't. :>19:34
predatorfreaktreach: You can take good ol' FreeBSD and have altq now.19:34
aonwhat do you mean by that multicore stuff?19:35
predatorfreakWithout some of OpenBSD's annoying policies.19:35
aonsmp support isn't enough?19:35
predatorfreakSame goes for NetBSD.19:35
treachaon: obsd doesn't work very well afaik.19:35
treachwith smp19:35
predatorfreaktreach: But personally, I'd rather use OpenBSD because it's an ideal router platform.19:35
treachit works, but it doesn't scale any way near as well as freebsd or linux does19:35
aonyeah well, i don't need to run forkbombs that much19:36
treachheh19:36
aonplus i have hardware that's not supported that well elsewhere19:36
predatorfreakx86/x86_64 SMP works fine on OpenBSD, the lack of developers working on other platforms accounts for lack of support off them.19:36
treachI'm not talking about what is possible to do, I'm talking about relevance.19:36
predatorfreak-off +other19:37
predatorfreakerr.19:37
predatorfreak-off +for19:37
predatorfreakDamn my brain today19:37
treachand obsd isn't really relevant as anything, except maybe as a router.19:37
predatorfreakRomster: YOU'RE MAKING MY ENGLISH GO DOWN19:37
treachand then, the question is, for how long will it stay relevant even in that area?19:37
predatorfreaktreach: It's a solid server platform, router platform, anywhere you need a rock-solid, secure setup.19:37
aonwell, it's the only os i can think of running on something that's open to the internet19:37
treach"until someone makes tc unsuck" or so.. :P19:38
predatorfreaktreach: Put altq/pf on Linux and I'd be fucking jumping for joy.19:38
treachsee, that's my point.19:38
predatorfreakThe problem with iptables/netfilter/tc/blah is the disconnected nature of them.19:38
aontalking on irc is hardly going to give you it, though :)19:39
predatorfreakpf and altq are beautifully integrated and OpenBSD just has a naturally good router platform out-of-the-box.19:39
predatorfreakaon: If I went to LKML and said "Let's port pf/altq."19:39
predatorfreakI'd get crucified.19:39
predatorfreakDamn madmen still think TC is a smart idea...19:39
aonyou just need to do it, that's how pf got done in the first place19:39
treachaon: no matter the how you put it, it's a small thing compared to the entire kernel/os19:40
aonwhat is?19:40
treachaltq/pf19:40
Romstertc is a nightmare but i'm starting to understand it.19:40
predatorfreakaon: Even if I made it.19:40
predatorfreakThe upstream folks would NEVER accept it.19:40
aonpf? i mainly run openbsd because the update cycle suits me and it isn't all fucking horrible like {free,net}bsd and most of the linux distros19:40
aonthe other linux distros aren't usable because of too ad-hoc updates19:40
predatorfreakaon: pf and altq, both of which I love.19:41
aonand there aren't that many good pa-risc oses around :)19:41
treachaon: my point was, using predatorfreak as an example if he pardons it, that all it takes to render obsd obsolete is someone making something like altq and friends for linux.19:41
predatorfreakWhen I ran FreeBSD I honestly loved pf and altq.19:41
treachie, obsd has no value in itself.19:41
predatorfreakThey made perfect sense.19:41
predatorfreaktreach: Theo de Raadt and his cohorts make a lot of good ideas.19:41
aontreach: except the fact that it's a pretty sane os otherwise too19:42
predatorfreakand are great at sticking with release schedules.19:42
aonand has all kinds of nice stuff like easy-to-use ipsec19:42
aonwhich you can't really say of all oses19:42
treachgee, I stopped listening to that shithead a long time ago.19:42
predatorfreakThere's nothing inherently wrong with OpenBSD.19:42
treachno. there is nothing wrong with it.19:42
predatorfreakIt's a fine platform for a lot of things.19:42
treachit just doesn't match the competition19:42
aonnothing wrong with theo either, at least he gets stuff done19:42
predatorfreakJust not my choice for a Desktop.19:42
predatorfreaktreach: Theo is an extreme version of Hans Reiser.19:42
predatorfreakHe has good ideas but he has the personality of a troll.19:43
aontreach: it's not closed-source, it doesn't have to match the competition as long as there's someone doing and using it19:43
predatorfreak:)19:43
treachaon: closed or open doesn't matter really.19:43
aonanyway, i think i'll go to bed now instead of putting gentoo on all my systems because of this *shocking* news19:43
treachif you don't match the other guys, why should I use your stuff?19:43
aonwho would've known that (open)bsd is dead19:43
treachwho said it was dead?19:44
predatorfreaktreach: No one else matches OpenBSD in rock solid stability and security.19:44
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treachjust that it's losing relevance.19:44
treachright..19:44
aonwhat about openssh, there's nobody developing that besides openbsd19:44
treachbut that's essentially a different project19:44
predatorfreakIf I had something that I needed rock solid stability, well-tested code and a secure base installation.19:44
predatorfreakOpenBSD would be my FIRST choice.19:44
predatorfreaktreach: No, it's run by all of the OpenBSD developers.19:45
aontreach: it's a part of openbsd with additional portability goop for other platforms19:45
treachaon: teo is just trying to make ssh / obsd a lump so he can get funding for obsd.19:45
aonit's in the openbsd cvs tree19:45
predatorfreakOpenBSD have a habit of reinventing a lot of tools "19:45
treachbut there is nothing that *actually* ties ssh to obsd.19:45
predatorfreak"very well"*19:45
treachit's just an artificial marriage.19:45
aonhah, the ones bundling ossh with commercial oses don't actually donate that much if i understand correctly19:45
aontreach: except the developers19:46
treachright.19:46
treachbut that doesn't change anything..19:46
aoni don't think there are that many who work just on ossh19:46
treachor do you mean that crux is part of xmms2? :P19:46
predatorfreakNah, xmms2 is part of CRUX :D19:46
treachprobably more devs on xmms219:47
treach:P19:47
aonyeah, but that's actually inventing something new instead of writing shellscripts, so more manpower is needed :)19:48
aonanyway, bed ->19:48
treachgood night19:48
predatorfreaktreach: Also you should understand, OpenSSH was created by the OpenBSD developers for OpenBSD.19:48
predatorfreakThe relation between CRUX and XMMS2 isn't anything like that.19:48
treachyes, I know that.19:48
treachjust pointing to that "it's the same developers" doesn't hold water19:49
predatorfreakMaybe not, but the OpenBSD developers themselves have created many things that have been adopted by other projects.19:49
treachyes. but that's not the point.19:50
predatorfreakI.E. pf was created by OpenBSD and adopted by all the other Open-Source BSDs.19:50
predatorfreakand still, the primary driving force behind it is OpenBSD.19:50
thrice`are there more crux'ers working on xmms2?  (I know not relevant, but I continue to see plural)19:50
treachno, it was the need of the obsdusers/developers19:50
treachnot that I know.19:51
treachI just pulled that out because the premise is preposterous19:51
predatorfreaktreach: The OpenBSD people created PF in reaction to ipfw being restrictively licensed, IIRC.19:51
predatorfreakThe other BSD's adopted it because it's the superior choice.19:52
treachyes. their need.19:52
predatorfreakYes.19:52
treachso? that's altq being relevant, not openbsd19:52
thrice`ah; didn't know if tilman converted some more :P19:52
predatorfreakBut their IDEA was better.19:52
predatorfreakMost of the others were content to stick with ipfw.19:52
predatorfreaktreach: PF existed without altq.19:53
predatorfreakaltq was Sony's creation, but OpenBSD married altq and pf damn well.19:53
treachwhatever, that's not the point. Your premises are wrong, and I'll tell you why19:53
treachyou're assuming that stuff like openssh altq and pf could not have existed without openbsd. this is patently false.19:54
predatorfreakI didn't say altq couldn't have existed without OpenBSD.19:54
treachthese things could have happened anyway. would they? different question19:54
predatorfreakI just admitted it was made my Sony.19:54
predatorfreakI said they integrated into PF very well.19:54
predatorfreakWhich made a good IMPLEMENTATION.19:54
treachyes I know that. no need for caps19:55
predatorfreaktreach: Also, sure, someone else could have created a good alternative to ipfw, but that's besides the point.19:55
predatorfreakThe point is, they DID create those and have contributed significantly to the community.19:55
predatorfreakand they continue to create inventive ideas and contribute them to the community.19:56
treachyes, and so did richard and kernighan once19:56
treachare they still relevant?19:56
predatorfreaktreach: No, they aren't continuing to contribute.19:56
treachright.19:56
predatorfreakNor did they have any real relation to Open-source.19:56
treachmmh. and that's not the issue.19:56
predatorfreaktreach: If a project continues to contribute, it's still relevant.19:58
treachthe issue is that there is few valid reasons beyond personal preference to go for openbsd, and these reasons will only get fewer19:58
predatorfreakThe OpenBSD project has contributed significantly to open-source and continues to do so.19:58
treachso, ok. what's the next big thing we will hear from from the obsd camp, except for the usual snarky comments from teo?19:58
predatorfreakHence it is still relevant.19:58
thrice`songs?19:58
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treachthrice`: sorry, I don't think they'll ever get relevant that way. ;D19:59
predatorfreaktreach: Every couple years it seems they hit some oddball vulnerability in things like TCP and shit.19:59
predatorfreakIn addition to continued development on OpenSSH/OpenNTPD/OpenCVS/etc.19:59
treachAnd nobody else does?20:00
predatorfreakOther folks do, but OpenBSD have a habit of hitting nasty problems.20:00
treachthese people working on different projects wouldn't find these problems?20:00
predatorfreakInterest in developing OpenSSH would continue, OpenNTPD unlikely, OpenCVS even less likely.20:00
predatorfreakPlus, if I had the time I could probably pull a shitload of good security ideas out of their playbook.20:01
predatorfreakBut I don't have the time to research the various ideas they invented.20:01
thrice`openBSD ships with firefox 2.0.0.12 ?  I thought that had a known security bug20:01
treachpredatorfreak: the past is the past. most of those things are already adopted in one form or another.20:02
predatorfreakThey patch stuff to hell and it's optional.20:02
thrice`ah20:02
treachif they want to stay relevant they have to come up with new stuff.20:02
predatorfreaktreach: They DO.20:02
treachtherefore I'm asking you again; What's the next big thing we stupid linux users will hear about?20:03
predatorfreakI just don't have time to dig out every damn concept they've brainstormed in the last year.20:03
predatorfreaktreach: Probably nothing, because they normally don't shout to the high heavens about shit.20:03
treachlol20:03
treachare you sure?20:03
predatorfreakNor do they get publicised much unless it's negative.20:03
thrice`I don't see why it matters; if they contribute nothing, who cares? if they do something that helps out, great20:04
treachI have a hard time matching teo to your description. ;D20:04
predatorfreaktreach: When was the last non-Theo-acting-like-an-ass-again news about them?20:04
treacha few months ago.20:04
treach2 or 3, don't quite remember20:04
treachteo's follow up on the "you're inhuman who call us on copyright infringement when we stick gpl code in our cvs" rant.20:05
treachthat's the latest one I remember.20:05
predatorfreaktreach: non-Theo-acting-like-an-ass-again.20:05
treachthere might be something newer than that20:05
predatorfreakRead that again20:05
treachah, sorry.20:06
treachgetting tired it's 0300 here20:06
predatorfreakUnless Theo acts like a giant ass, there ain't much reporting on OpenBSD.20:06
predatorfreakBesides the every-6-months new-release stuff.20:06
treachwell. going on such rampages as he's frequently doing makes you wonder if he shouldn't be locked up someplace.20:06
predatorfreakLike I said.20:06
predatorfreakHe has good ideas, but the personality of a troll.20:07
treachs /troll/dick20:07
treachand he's disingenous to boot too.20:07
treachwhich is what I find most repulsive with him20:07
predatorfreaktreach: Troll is worse than dick.20:08
treachnah. I mean, seriously, someone would probably call me a troll for venting these opinions, but I hope that wouldn't make them call me  a dick.20:09
treachs someone/some people/20:09
predatorfreaktreach: You dick :D20:10
treachwhy? because I don't share your views?20:10
predatorfreakBut honestly, I'm bored of this discussion.20:10
predatorfreaktreach: It was sarcasm.20:10
treachor did I personally insult you?20:10
predatorfreakYou missed the giant ":D" didn't you.20:10
treachmaybe.20:11
Romsterhaha man...20:11
predatorfreakSigh..20:11
predatorfreaktreach: Unwind a bit man.20:11
treachok, Romster have the right to call me a dick sometimes. Usually when he takes what I say the wrong way. :)20:11
RomsterLighten up, man this chat is getting boring and I have been reading it all.20:11
treachotherwise I categorically deny that allegation. :D20:11
Romster:)20:12
RomsterI try not to take stuff the wrong way and I'm trying to work on my anger management <<20:12
treachhey, it's text only, and I know I don't always get things right.20:13
treachit would be strange if there never were any misunderstandings20:13
predatorfreakRomster: ANGER MANAGEMENT!!!!!!20:14
* predatorfreak punches treach20:14
predatorfreakSorry.20:14
predatorfreakNeed to go back to Anger Management.20:14
Romstertrue. but i had no right to go on a rampage like i have in the past.20:14
Romsterpredatorfreak, rofl.20:14
* predatorfreak is just a tad bit loopy20:14
Romsterhere take a virtual kick :P20:15
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