IRC Logs for #crux Wednesday, 2008-06-04

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pitillogood morning01:08
cptnhi pitillo01:17
pitilloyo cptn :)01:18
pitillothere is not much movement in the ML about the meeting thread too...01:19
cptnwell, I guess the rest is either on most of the time (tilman, aon), or not using IRC at all01:20
cptnbut if those that voted show up, it should be fun :-)01:20
pitillojajajaa there are only 2 votes there01:21
cptnpitillo: in any case, the core team would be compelete01:21
cptnpitillo: ? there are five: http://doodle.ch/participation.html?pollId=rturdcmvq86s5s6w01:21
cptnpitillo: plus nipuL who commented here on IRC01:22
pitilloyep, that isn't really hard. Only looking for the day that can be good for all (which musn't be too hard for a few people only)01:22
pitilloummm I haven't followed that link, I was looking only at ML01:22
cptnso it's only two that haven't really commented, tillb and Viper01:22
cptnI'll have to kick Viper next time he's on :-)01:23
pitilloin that link things change01:23
pitilloI think you will post the day/hour in the ML to follow the meeting from a side01:24
cptnyes, I hope that we can fix this by the end of this week01:24
cptnalthough the time is pretty much set already, that's 18-23h CEST01:25
pitilloummm namenlo_s is there too01:25
pitilloyes, it's a bit hard to coordinate people from all world, but must be there a range of hours that can be shared by all01:26
cptnI think on a good day, I can be there freom like 19-23h01:26
cptnand I hope that there's gonna be some overlap between everyone01:26
cptnit's not like we all have to be there the whole five hours01:26
cptnit would/will be different for regular meetings01:27
pitillothat is a good window time to follow a meeting, but not all people will share that range01:27
pitilloyeah of course, that could be an ideal case... all people being there around 5h xD01:27
pitillowell, that was my point about trying to put some points for talking in a meeting01:28
pitillothat can let people think if he can be usefull/interested for that meeting01:28
pitilloand talking only about some points can make the time window for a meeting little01:29
cptnmmmh01:29
cptnI was looking at it from a different point of view:01:29
cptnthe items to discuss will depend on the people01:29
cptnnot that people come because they're interested in those points01:29
pitillowell, I think isn't bad this point of view01:30
cptnboth are fine01:30
cptnI think for regular meeting agendas are important01:30
pitilloif someone is affected by a point of a meeting I think he will try to be there (if that point dioesn't affect/interest him, he can avoid to be there)01:30
pitillowell, I think that can be good for all meetings01:31
cptnmaybe I shouldn't have called it meeting then?01:31
pitilloto know before starting which points will be talked and to make a list about which will be talked first01:31
pitilloummm I think it's a meeting01:31
pitillo(people together talking about things related to the comunity is a meeting, at least for me)01:32
cptnwell no, it's more about doing work together01:32
cptnand coordinating it on IRC01:32
pitilloyeah, but all is related to that01:32
pitillothe work starts when all people talk about points, and then you can put tasks in 1 person directly (or in a group of people to work together, depending in the case)01:33
cptnwe've already discussed the points01:33
pitilloyep01:33
cptnwe've agreed that things should be done01:33
cptnso we just need to get together and do it01:33
pitilloah I see the point01:34
pitillobut you will meet to see how you do them01:34
pitilloor just to make them?01:34
cptndepends on the subject01:35
cptnfor example the pkgmk extract only patch/bubg01:35
cptnerr, bug01:35
cptnwe will quickly bring that up, merge it, and close the bug01:35
cptnthere's not much to discuss really01:35
pitilloyou will add finally that patch?01:36
cptn...01:36
cptnwhy finally?01:36
pitilloummm was reported some time ago, I don't know if finally is the best word in this case01:37
cptnwhatever we do we get complaints about being too slow etc.01:37
pitillohey I don't mean that01:38
cptnbut you said it01:38
cptnthere was a fixed version submitted may 2301:38
pitillowell, I think that wasn't the mean of that word (at least in spanish)01:38
pitilloyeah, and was discussed there01:38
pitilloI mean if you finally got a unified answer about this01:38
pitilloI don't mean you are doing it slow or fast01:39
cptnokay01:39
pitilloxD01:39
cptnI think I was the only one objecting the change01:39
pitillodon't be in a defense possition at least with me01:39
cptnjue and tilman have agreed to merge it for quite some time now01:39
cptnand I think they managed to convince me that it's a good idea :-)01:39
pitilloI am not attacking nothing, and more at 8:43 in the morning xD01:40
pitillowell, it can be a good idea, but that can be done by hand instead of adding that option directly to pkgmk01:40
cptnhttp://lists.crux.nu/pipermail/crux-devel/2008-May/003496.html01:41
cptnI don't think the question was if it gets merged, but only when01:41
pitilloI think if this can avoid some time for someone and if this don't add strange logic, can be a good patch01:41
pitillointeresting01:41
pitilloI need to read slowly and try to understand things better (quite hard sometimes)01:42
cptnin any case, I think defining an agenda would defy the purpose of the casual meeting01:43
cptnsince the goal is do discuss any open points that is relevant to the people which are there01:43
cptnwe could have a wiki page where everyone lists his open points though01:43
cptnalso, if it's a bigger decision I think it should be discussed either in a regular meeting (with agenda), or the mailing list01:44
pitilloyeah, but without organization, time can pass and someone interested in 1 point can be waiting the talk for it and expend all his time waiting01:44
cptnthink of it more as an "IRC day", not a meeting01:44
cptndevelopers who want to spend only little time on IRC should do it on this day, because it's likely that the other developers are around too01:45
pitillowell, I think meeting and ML are differents ways. All can be discussed in a ML and if it's a important point, it can be moved to a meeting to be discussed there, and then, look for an answer to fix it01:45
pitilloyes, that was 1 of the points of my mail about meetings...01:46
pitilloI thought in 2 in a month, but only 1 day per month (or 0 if there is no important things to talk about) can be enought to put all core members together and talk about things01:47
cptnyeah, I think regular meetings would be good too01:48
pitillomay be 2/month can be too much (also hard to coordinate), but 1 day/month... I think all can be take at least 1-2h to be there01:48
cptnI would hope that at a later point in time, we can make the "IRC day" an official meeting01:48
cptnso we have only one date/time, and most of the time it's just a get together01:49
pitillolooking always for a good window for people from all world sides01:49
cptnand once per month it's a regular meeting, assuming that there's enough on the agenda01:49
pitilloyes, that's the point. Try to be together and coordinated... and this will be good directly for the comunity.01:50
cptnyes01:50
cptnI could also imagine doing another "community meeting"01:50
pitillowell, may be if 1 month there are lot of points, can be studied to put some together if they are related directly to 1 person (to don't make them assist 2 meetings)01:50
pitilloummm I think the irc day will be the comunity meeting01:51
pitilloif someone isn't in core, he can assist too to see/read how are things going on01:51
cptnI meant more on community building01:52
pitilloI can the comunity meeting like all days here...01:52
pitilloummm I don't see that point01:52
cptnokay01:52
pitillothe comunity is built01:52
pitilloorganized too. But decisions are taken by you. That's why I thought in posting items first on ML01:53
pitilloto see people opinions, ideas, doubts to thjink before a meeting01:53
pitilloand then the meeting will be the point in time where you will talk about all info collected at ML01:53
pitilloat least I see this way the way to go and expend only the necesary time in things (with a good planification I think you can save time and efforts)01:54
Romsteri don't think i'll bother showing for the meetings i've given enough stuff in flyspray to catch up on for a good while.01:55
pitilloRomster, I think you don't bother anyone. With your ideas you can open doors to another things or thoughts01:55
Romsterevery time i do i get shot down so best to avoid the drama.01:56
pitillothe point is to think that people here can't spend all their time thinking in all your points (there are more people which show their points and this is time xonsuming)01:56
pitillo*xonsumig/consuming01:56
Romsteri'll spend the time to improve my ports instead.01:56
pitillo(consuming? expended?)01:56
Romstersince i read the adding of extra lines.01:56
pitilloRomster, you know my opinion about that. You are free to do whatever you want in your own (this is the point of CRUX)01:57
Romsterconsuming01:57
pitilloRomster, but that will affect the comunity in all senses01:57
Romsteryeah and i'll do what i like and not bother the meetings not for a while at least.01:58
pitilloI think people working in a comunity must be patient and respect others (opinions, ideas and time)01:58
Romstersave the others pain.01:58
pitillowell, that's your point of view01:58
pitilloa bit sad at least for me read that, you know01:58
pitilloyou will get what you give... if you give pressure, you will get pressure01:59
Romsterit's clear my opinions don't seem to count so i'll spend my time on improving other stuff and leave everyone to work on more important things.01:59
pitillowell, all opinions must be studied IMHO01:59
Romsterall i can d is wait for the few patches to either be accepted or rejected upto them to decide.02:00
pitilloif they are crazy too, and an answer giving reasons can be good to clarify the crazy one02:00
Romsteri'm full of ideas only a few really make sense.02:00
pitilloRomster, if you think that can be good, show them. The point is how you show them and how you tell things02:01
Romsteranyways i'm not going on another fill irc up with junk session.02:01
pitilloRomster, organize them, think about them and if you feel they can be good, show tham02:01
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pitillo*show them02:01
Romsteri get more enjoyment helping out in wine now than i do in crux.02:01
pitillothey must be studied (with time, Romster, with time. Give people time to think about all things) and then it can be a start point to do something if they have sense02:02
Romsterwel i'm giving them time and not adding anything new.02:02
pitilloRomster, you are free to do whatever you want in all senses, helping here or in another place02:02
Romsterthat's what i' saying so i arn't putting any more pressure on them.02:02
Romsteri'm*02:02
pitilloRomster, be patient. May be there wasn't enought time to study your ideas. And time is the first obstacle here02:03
Romstercore team have enough todo as it is.02:03
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pitilloyes, that's the point. Too much things and not much people (with this I don't mean things are going slowly or that people aren't doing their job well)02:04
Romsteri'll be back in while walking the dogs.02:04
pitilloall must be talked and studied. People here have lot of knowledge and I think that's a very good point to make a strong community (respecting always the philosophy related to CRUX)02:05
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Romsteri'm a burden that's all there is to it now see ya later.02:05
pitillocu later Romster02:05
sepenheyo Romster02:07
sepennice to see you here02:07
pitillomorning sepen02:07
sepenm0rning02:08
cptnsepen: well, I tend to disagree to some extend02:19
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cptnerr02:19
cptns/sepen/pitillo/02:19
sepencptn, ;)02:19
cptnearlier, the community maintained its own wiki, its own ports server, mailing lists and tools02:20
cptnif Per didn't have time to handle some things we did this on our side02:20
cptnbut we didn't complain that the "core team" (=Per) was to slow02:21
pitillocptn, I really don't know about that (I am quite new here to know what are you talking about, but I think I can make an idea)02:23
pitillocptn, with time things change (and in this case grow if I am not in wrong), and I think can be a good idea about this, and try to evolution in the best way02:24
pitilloI mean, when per started this, there weren't the same services (wiki, ML, core utils,... ) and the same amount of ports too02:25
cptnare you sure about that?02:26
pitilloI think trying to grow in the best way (respecting CRUX philosophy is the way to go, may be a hard way to adopt some decissions)02:26
cptn think so too02:27
pitillocptn, I think I am not sure, because like I said, I never saw what was CRUX when per started this, but I can imagine things grow with time02:27
cptnand if you want to grow, you have to help the community grow02:27
cptnthat's what I call "community building"02:27
pitilloyeah, the comunity grows day by day with devel/maintainer/users comments or ideas02:28
pitilloand people who really know how this started and how can affect a decission to the principes of CRUX, can be good to make a strong comunity02:28
cptnmmmh, interesting02:28
cptnI think the community was bigger earlier02:28
pitilloummm that sounds really strange for me02:29
cptnI guess it depends on how you count02:29
pitilloI thought the opposite and now may be I am not right then02:29
pitillowell, I mean for example in the xorg decision02:29
cptnin term of active people on the mailing list, I think we have definitely less nowadays02:29
cptnI'm not saying this is bad02:30
pitilloummm well, there is movement on ML now too (reading old posts there I can see there were movement but now too)02:30
cptnbut I feel (my opinion) that the dev team and the user community are somewhat separated nowadays02:31
cptnthat wasn't the case in the past, at least not to that extend02:31
sependue to who?02:33
cptnwell, I'm not impartial :-)02:34
cptnor rather heavily biased02:34
cptnI think the contributors did it to help02:34
cptnnot for the "fame"02:34
sepenI feel that all my suggestions are directly rejected or avoided, or simply don't readed02:35
cptni.e. we didn't care whether we were on the "Profiles" page that much02:35
sepenwith this situtation is dificult to be integrated on crux02:35
pitillosorry, I was talking with phone02:35
pitillowell, I think there is a separation between core and the rest of users (or at least a feel so sometimes too)02:36
sepenyeah, i.e About page, contributors appear like retired members (on the same line, and in a similar way)02:36
cptnsepen: and that's a problem for you?02:36
pitillowell, from my point of view, I really don't care about fame02:36
sepencptn, is not the real problem02:37
cptnsepen: why did you say that "contributors are the shit of crux"?02:37
pitillomore, I can use some kind of contrib mail for my ports, because I feel I do them for the comunity (and in some cases for me) but for me really doesn't matter if my name ois shown or not02:37
cptnI think there's some many ways to improve contrib02:37
cptnwhich you two have an influence on02:38
sepencptn, well we are working on contrib, I think we are developers, not contributors02:38
cptnbut you're focusing so much on the rest of the rpoject02:38
sepenimho atm contrib its a nice repository, like opt02:38
pitillocptn, I am agree with sepen in that sense. Sometimes you don't apreciate contrib people works (knowing that contrib is not a official repo and that was used to be in that sense)02:38
sepencptn, I try to improve in all areas but my suggestions are rejected directly02:39
pitilloyou keep contrib separated from core/opt and there isn't a policy to see how a port can be added to opt (or at least I didn't see that policy anywhere, this can be my fault really)02:39
sepencptn, well, not always :)02:41
pitillomay be the problem in my case is that I don't really understand what is opt and how is it managed (optional ports? optional and well maintained nad very used? or directly a port moved from crontib to opt due to a personal decision?)02:41
sepenopt developers, or opt maintainers?02:42
cptnpitillo: okay, then it's maybe a doc issue02:44
cptnthere a development team02:45
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sepencptn, and contrib?02:47
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cptnthey're users contributing ports02:56
cptnthe dev team provides them with all needed services02:57
cptnit was meant as a help to build a user ports community02:59
cptnbut all we get for it is "why aren't we developers?"02:59
cptnI mean, we could totally separate this from the regular CRUX wiki if that's what you want03:01
cptnI thought it was actually nice to mention you on the official About page03:01
cptnbut apparently, that's not good enough03:01
sepenhmm03:01
sepenI think that some contributors may work in other areas, but sounds impossible due to their status03:02
cptnthey can work on whatever they want03:02
sepenand that in my case is a cause for disenchanted me03:02
sepenand why that's not good enough03:03
sepen?03:03
cptnif it's good enough people will use it03:04
cptnthat's not the call of the core team03:04
cptnif the community likes your changes, they'll start using them03:04
cptnit was like this with httpup, prt-get, the dependency headers etc.03:04
sepenmaybe I selected the wrong comunity for me03:04
cptnall non official ideas03:04
cptnyou can't select a community03:04
cptnsepen: let me give you another example:03:05
cptnsave-env03:05
cptnyou have to convince the majority of maintainers03:05
cptnthat's the users, not core03:05
sepenI only make a suggestion03:06
cptnif core doesn't pick it up, that doesn't mean that you're idea is not good03:06
cptnbut you blame core03:06
sepenwell give some time, I'll return from a tee time03:06
sepen:)03:06
cptnI have to work a bit too03:07
cptn:-)03:07
cptnpitillo: I think this is why a community meeting could make sense03:13
cptnpitillo: to understand better what the two sides think03:13
cptnI get the impression that the users (non-contrib) are mostly happy03:13
cptnbut not the contrib members03:14
cptnso maybe it's more a 'contrib meeting'03:14
cptnanyway, talk to you later :-)03:14
predatorfreakcptn: Not to bitch, but even I get a bit disenchanted with the core folks at times.03:15
predatorfreakAs you've seen ;)03:16
Romsterback03:18
Romsteri still use my safe-build and if anyone wants to try it they can but i'm using it for myself. i don't care if no one else uses it if it's useful to me i'll keep working on it.03:19
Romsteropt was ment for the core (back then base) team to put there trusted ports. thats why contrib is untrusted and never on the cd nor enabled by default.03:20
Romsterand contrib was a after thought to reduce duplication.03:20
predatorfreakRomster: I think there are a number of things in contrib which should go to core, some to opt.03:21
predatorfreakFor example, lvm2 amd mdadm03:21
Romsteri do too but no one will listen to me and i wont get in opt so whos gonna take lvm2?03:21
Romsteri've given away k3b to kde now.03:21
predatorfreakI'd be willing to support support lvm2 in opt.03:21
Romsterso i got no kdelibs dependent ports in contrib now.03:21
predatorfreakI have no power in core.03:21
predatorfreak-support support +support03:22
Romsterlucky you got opt when i've been around alot longer but i don't care about that anymore. i'll just maintain my ports in the hope they are useful for others.03:22
predatorfreakI believe lvm2 is FAR better suited to core though, as it is a core component of a number of Linux systems.03:22
predatorfreakEven Gentoo provide lvm2 on their CD03:23
predatorfreakHell, I bet Slackware does.03:23
Romsteri don't believe in all that NFS in core that should be optional.03:23
Romsterand inetd could go to opt too.03:24
predatorfreakAgreed, nfs is not required or an extremely urgent component.03:24
predatorfreakIt's something that can be on the CD, under opt.03:24
pitillosorry, a bit of work here. Re-reading03:24
predatorfreakBut mdadm I see as an essential basic tool if you use RAID.03:24
predatorfreakpitillo: Don't bother.03:24
predatorfreakWe're just politely bitching :D03:25
Romsterand what the hell uses tcsh i would like to know.03:25
predatorfreakUhh nothing.03:25
cptnRomster: if you feel like ranting, please use ##ranting03:25
Romsterthen why is it in core...03:25
predatorfreakI guess it's mostly for people who "prefer" a C shell.03:25
Romsteri don't agree wit a few ports in core but if i raise a point i'd get put in my place.03:26
Romsternot ranting..03:26
predatorfreakcptn: When meetings for 2.4 come around, I believe we should discuss some of this stuff more in depth.03:26
Romsterif is the thing might be worth while since alot of hard disks are cheap now.03:26
predatorfreakEspecially mdadm/lvm2.03:26
Romsteroh and man pages on the god damn install cd...03:26
predatorfreakIIRC, lvm has been brought up in the past03:26
Romstercan't do man ... on the install cd if you forget a command that's very anoying.03:27
Romsterno one was even willing to pick up lvm2 so i did for the rest that use it.03:27
Romsterbecause i see it as being important.03:28
cptnpredatorfreak: did you already talk to Romster?03:28
Romsteryeah i know the full story cptn and you talking behind my back about my qt4 and transcode.03:28
predatorfreakcptn: Yes, I told him that if he behaved and was polite it should calm down.03:28
Romsteri'm fixing transcode making some progress patching the configure.in file.03:29
predatorfreakcptn: To an extent, we're merely discussing the location of certain ports.03:29
Romsteri'll be polite providing no one has a go at me first.03:29
cptn"oh and man pages on the god damn install cd..."03:29
Romsterwhat aon did made my blood boil.03:29
Romstercptn, the other day i needed to boot off the cd..03:30
predatorfreakcptn: It annoys me too, but that's not anything beyond what I've said about a program once or twice03:30
cptnpredatorfreak: well, IMO we failed then03:30
Romsteri used my other desktop cursing as i walked over ot it, trench brought this point up ages ago.03:30
predatorfreakcptn: (The lack of man pages annoy me)03:30
Romsteris it even planed for 2.5?03:30
cptnpredatorfreak: Romster's back to complain about the install CD, aon and so on03:30
Romstermeh i'm going then.03:30
predatorfreakcptn: We have the right to complain about things, I specifically said it was about being more polite about it.03:31
predatorfreakand not assaulting people over stuff.03:31
cptnpredatorfreak: I'm not talking about you though03:31
predatorfreakcptn: I didn't say I could make him not complain, nor would I.03:31
Romsteri'm not abusing anyone i'm making constructive criticism...03:31
Romsteris that wrong.03:31
Romsterhow about i make a list of everything and put it on the ML for the meeting would that please you more?03:32
Romsterok seems i'm being ignored knew it.03:33
Romstergood day go talk behind my back some more because you got no balls to face me.03:33
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aonas if you require balls on irc03:34
predatorfreakSigh..03:34
predatorfreakYet another colossal failure of diplomacy.03:35
cptnI thought you would tell him that we pick on him because he complains all the time03:35
cptnand then the first thing he does is start all over03:36
predatorfreakI told him that you agreed to calm down if both of you behaved politely.03:36
cptnyeah03:36
predatorfreakThat was what I said I would do.03:36
cptnand he didn't IMHO03:36
* sepen here03:36
predatorfreakHe wasn't calling you guys jackasses or something.03:36
sepensorry for my absence03:37
predatorfreakHe was complaining about legitimate things, more to me in fact.03:37
predatorfreakIt wasn't even directed.03:37
predatorfreakI CERTAINLY did NOT agree to tell him to not complain.03:37
predatorfreakNor did I agree to such a thing.03:37
sepenWTF, one more time ?03:37
sepenpffffffff03:37
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predatorfreakmm, that made me think of Daft Punk03:39
* predatorfreak finds Daft Punk - One More Time03:39
pitilloseems so hard to keep a good/calm/polite talk here... If things are said well, I can't see a problem, but seem people haven't enought patience03:42
predatorfreakpitillo: Tell me about it.03:42
cptnpitillo: yeah; especially since we discussed this the night before03:43
cptnso I would have expected that Romster would be a bit more sensitive03:43
pitillocptn, I am agree with your last sentence for me about the meetings to understand both sides (that is another reason about my query for more meetings, to know all poeple opinions/ideas)03:43
predatorfreakcptn: As I said, I never said I would tell him NOT to complain.03:43
predatorfreakI said that I would tell him to behave more politely and not attack people.03:43
pitillocptn, right, I hoped that too, but he exploded again, and now I can't see a reason for that03:44
predatorfreakIf that wasn't what you had in mind, I would suggest speaking up.03:44
cptnpredatorfreak: well, you made the proposal to speak to him, so I didn't have anything in mind03:45
pitilloI think isn't so hard to be patient with other people comments and try to expose differences between ideas or comments03:45
cptnpredatorfreak: I promised that if he wouldn't provoke me, I wouldn't fuel the fire03:46
pitilloif now isn't the best moment to do that, all people can take note about their ideas and try to talk about them in another moment03:46
cptnhe did provoke me in the few minutes he was back03:46
predatorfreakcptn: He wasn't talking to you until you joined in really.03:46
cptnthat doesn't matter, this is #crux03:46
cptnit's a public place03:46
pitillotrue03:46
predatorfreakMe and him where talking/ranting about things we don't like in CRUX.03:46
predatorfreakI don't see WHY discussion related to ports in CRUX can't happen in #crux?03:47
teK o m f g  PLEASE do stop it03:47
cptnpredatorfreak: they can, but you can express it differently03:47
pitillopredatorfreak, that can be talked between all people in CRUX and all can give arguments about things03:47
predatorfreakcptn: Like?03:47
jesse_teK: if you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen. :-)03:47
cptn"it would be great to have man pages on the ISO"03:47
predatorfreak"Please remove blah, blah and blah and put them in opt instead?"03:47
pitillopredatorfreak, respecting other people time is my first thought03:48
cptn"I could provide an ISO with man pages so people could actually test and see whether they like it"03:48
pitilloand yeah, looking a good way to tell things03:48
cptninstead, just bashing the work that we do03:48
cptnwhere I'm actually not part of that 'we' doing ISOS ;-)03:48
predatorfreakcptn: Sigh, "oh and man pages on the god damn install cd...", if you removed god damn it'd be fine.03:49
predatorfreakCorrect?03:49
cptnnot fine, but better03:51
predatorfreakcptn: I can see your point, but sometimes you have to overlook the wording03:51
cptnit would be fine in general03:51
predatorfreakand look at the meaning.03:51
cptnsometimes, yes03:51
cptnbut it was very clear the other day that we're annoyed03:51
cptnand then it would be sensible to take extra care in wording03:51
predatorfreakTBH, that shit annoys me too, some programs have a sensible --help, but sometimes they truncate.03:52
cptnbut it just became apparent that he's not willing to compromise03:52
cptn"ok seems i'm being ignored knew it."03:52
cptnit's just only about him03:52
predatorfreakcptn: Sigh, well, Romster seems to have said "Fuck it" for now and decided he's going to avoid the CRUX IRC channels03:53
predatorfreakSo, it's over.03:53
predatorfreakTo some extent03:53
cptnokay03:53
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predatorfreak"Built around a licensed x86 ARM 11 CPU,"03:54
predatorfreako.O03:54
predatorfreakx86 ARM?03:54
predatorfreaksepen: Welcome back.03:54
sepencan I send a test mail to crux-devel? any objection?03:54
sepenpredatorfreak, thnx03:54
predatorfreaksepen: Not from me :P03:55
teKjesse_: no, I'll better shoot the cook03:57
sepenI whould test if prtverify daily mail could be showed in a tree view03:57
sepens/avoid/ignore03:57
sepenplease ignore this mail03:57
jesse_Shooting the cook might get out of hand very quickly.04:00
jesse_Seems it already did, too.04:00
predatorfreakjesse_: Yeah, I'd say so04:01
teKit's simply ridiculous04:01
jesse_crux has always been uptight and conservative when it comes to system design, that is no secret and it should not surprise anyone04:02
jesse_Despite this, I do not believe innovation is discouraged, it is just exceedingly difficult getting it to become official.04:03
predatorfreakIt's a KISS distribution, it should be.04:03
predatorfreakBut somethings, I believe, take forever.04:03
jesse_Ideal driven, KISS, hobbyist distribution = this is the reality of things.04:03
predatorfreakHobbyist distribution's should advance quickly, IMO.04:04
predatorfreakDue to the hobby-centric nature of using such a distribution.04:04
sepen+1 predatorfreak04:04
jesse_Not when said changes/improvements go against the driving principles.04:05
predatorfreakjesse_: What exactly goes against principles here?04:05
teKwe need a strong leader :D04:06
predatorfreakteK: I nominate that we demand Per het back here04:06
predatorfreak-h +g04:06
teKI jsut read his email about retiring :-)04:07
teKit's even linked in wikipedia04:07
jesse_predatorfreak: nothing specific to point out, at least not yet.04:07
jesse_I'm sure this has more to do with lacking authority and planning, but this is linked to being a hobbyist distribution yet again.04:08
predatorfreakjesse_: Authority existed when Per controlled it.04:08
predatorfreakand it was still a hobbyist distribution.04:09
predatorfreakIMO, having a "Democratic" distribution just leads to problems.04:09
cptnjust think of the core team as a dictator04:09
predatorfreakIt's better to say "This is the way I ship it, you can do whatever afterwords, but this is what you get."04:09
jesse_Per has not been around for a long time and the so-called council which followed him disintegrated after the main people started dropping like flies.04:09
predatorfreakcptn: Bah! Give me a single dictator anyday04:09
teKguys it was a joke ... what have I done again04:09
teKlet's talk about the weather! It's rainy here04:10
jesse_predatorfreak: which you described is not far from the reality today.04:10
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jesse_They keep a running base, the rest is up to the user.04:10
teKbut I'm fine with it, we had 27 degress at 10am the day before yesterday04:10
predatorfreakjesse_: That people take it seriously is an indication of just how annoyed people are.04:10
teKCelsius, not Fahrenheit, btw04:10
predatorfreakjesse_: No, there's a level of "contributing" stuff to it.04:10
predatorfreakand discussion of what goes in, what doesn't, etc.04:11
predatorfreakIt's not just one guy going "Yes." or "No."04:11
predatorfreakand -jeese_ +tek04:11
jesse_crux has its status quo and it will not change anytime soon, at least not with the current circumstances.04:11
predatorfreakDamn tab and brain04:11
predatorfreakjesse_: Then the core folks should state this so I can happily fork and advance it.04:12
jesse_Gather them up and ask them.04:13
pitillowell, really I can't see the point of dictation in this distro... when things are talked and reasoned, I think all people knowledge give power to this, instead of relay only in 1 person (or 1 team to decide)... which can be the end to let them decide, but knowing all arguments about things (from both sides, dictators and users)04:13
predatorfreak<< That's exactly what I mean.04:13
pitillochange "this distro" by in distros in general04:14
predatorfreakpitillo: We're kind-of failing at the users/dictators talking about things together right now04:14
predatorfreakThat said, cptn's community meetings should be fast-tracked into implementation04:14
pitilloto get things better (I don't mean they are bad, I mean that something which would be avoided in one point in time, due by an error/bug/passed over/didn't thought on that, can be thought)04:15
cptnjust to be sure, it's not going to be a popularity contest :-)04:16
pitillopredatorfreak, that was my point of meetings... Make a way between core and users. Talking about things that can be interesting for the comunity (yes the comunity, not personal aims)04:16
predatorfreakpitillo: The problem for me is I see a lack of communication right now04:17
pitillowell, for me doesn't matter the popularity, for me the first obj is the comunity or CRUX directly04:17
predatorfreakWhich is causing the majority of the community-relations problems.04:17
predatorfreakA lot of this shit with Romster could have been avoided with earlier and kinder talks about concerns over his ports.04:17
pitillo(and with this I don't mean things go bad or I want to attack anyone)04:17
pitillopredatorfreak, IMHO all must be talked, only with a little opinion you can give the needed info to another person04:18
predatorfreakI agree.04:18
pitillobut talking things need time (to think about these things)04:18
predatorfreakThat's my point, there was a vacuum of early, polite conversation with Romster.04:19
pitilloand patience is the goal of all people here... patience to take decision, patience with other persons04:19
predatorfreakWhich resulted in fallout later.04:19
teKthe status quo is not that bad04:19
pitillopredatorfreak, romster got heat easily, he must be more calm and give patience to others04:19
predatorfreakYes, I agree.04:20
predatorfreakBut this shit has been building over months.04:20
pitillothings can not be done in 1 minuto or 1 day04:20
pitillopredatorfreak, then with more reasons, he must be more calm, try to explain the situation04:20
predatorfreakIt's been pretty obvious he's been getting more and more angry at the core team for awhile.04:20
pitillotry/trying04:20
predatorfreakI think it's been a failure of communication from BOTH sides on that.04:21
predatorfreakand I also think both sides fuelled the fire.04:21
pitillohe must be able to tell things in another way (like the core team) and he must understand things in another way too (like the core team too)04:21
pitillopredatorfreak, agree04:21
pitillothat is why I always try to bother with the fact of talking, being calm and thinking things04:21
pitillowith a bit of organization (which a priori can seem to be against kiss) things can be taken in another way without making them complicated04:22
sepenalso I want to add that people that compose the core team should be more active (thinking on sip)04:22
sepensip is really necessary imho04:23
pitillosepen, we finish in the same point... people haven't the same time to do things04:23
sepenwell in this case they should take vacations04:23
sepenand recruit new core devs04:23
sepenhow many core devs were in the past?04:23
pitillosepen, I am mailing with sip since some time ago, and he answer my mails (may be lacking time, but this can be due to personal things)04:23
cptnsepen: one04:24
sepenhmm04:24
cptnthere were 8 at some point in time04:25
pitillosepen, may be recruiting can be a solution, but think that if we were more organized, may be things can be shown and we can know if really there is a need of more core members04:25
cptnthere's one thing you guys have to keep in mind:04:25
sepencptn, I prefer the action you decided, you got a vacation and now you come back04:25
cptnwe do this for fun04:25
sepenyeah04:25
cptnand we want to get people on board that are fun to work with04:25
pitilloif we don't know which tasks are need at some point, we don't know how many people must work on them04:25
predatorfreakI would be more than open to helping out the core folks, but I doubt with my skirmishes and all, that I'm too high on the list for that these days04:25
cptnjust adding more people to have more ressources won't work04:26
pitilloI think the point is more comunication, to see how can we take things04:26
sepen+1 pitillo04:26
cptnI agree with many things you mentioned04:26
cptnespecially on communication04:26
cptnnot only contrib <-> core, but also amongst the devs04:26
pitillothat was the point of my first mail asking about more meetings04:26
cptnit's just a boring job to organize04:27
pitillowell, I don't see that difference, I just see comunication between CRUX users (which some of them will be core members, others will be contrib members or others will be users)04:27
cptnpitillo: well, you've read before that it's a dictatorship04:28
pitillocptn, I think it isn't boring, it can be hard due to time and world position, but we can search for a way to tryit04:28
sepenbut if core devs are saturated with work, this situation can't help04:28
cptnpitillo: so we want to discuss things on our own04:28
pitillocptn, I see the point of dictator at the end... you will be the ones you must decide if something is good/bad for CRUX04:28
cptnif everyone with an opionion joins the discussions it would take 10x more time04:28
sepenand this is bad for you?04:29
cptnyes04:29
sepenimho this become a better results04:29
pitillocptn, that can be possible if you wait to see what people think. But if you know it before, you can think in your talks in that opinions04:29
pitillosepen, yes, that's bad04:29
cptnyou're again thinking of a democracy04:29
pitillothat kind of talks must be done by people who has the responsability of taking decisions04:29
pitillono cptn04:30
pitilloreally I am thinking in a comunity... that opinions can show you another ways to think about things04:30
cptnyes, sure04:30
pitillothat is the point04:30
cptnokay04:30
sepenI'm comunist, I can't live in a dictatorship04:30
sepencrux == DIY04:31
cptnI find it nice BTW that we can disagree on many things but still discuss reasonably :-)04:31
sepenall we need is a good base04:31
predatorfreakcptn: We have a Semi-Democratic Dictatorship.04:31
predatorfreakThe core developers kind-of Democratically decide things, then it's mandate.04:31
pitillocptn, if someone tell you something, I am quite sure you can give reasons to avoid or agree with it04:31
sepenthat isn't a dictatorship04:32
predatorfreaksepen: To an extent it is.04:32
pitillohere people has lot of knowledge, and the goal IMHO is sharing it to see if it can make CRUX stronger/better if there is a sense which it can be losing something04:32
predatorfreakThey decide what happens, it's their decision.04:32
predatorfreakNot ours.04:32
pitillopredatorfreak, yes04:32
predatorfreakA true Democracy requires the involvement of the people in decision making.04:33
sepen:[04:33
pitillobut if they can read and think about some opinion and give reasons, I think it isn't04:33
sepenin this case, I reafirm that contrib is the shit of crux04:33
predatorfreakHence it's only Semi-Democratic, CRUX is like Cuba :D04:33
pitilloif this is done in, people in core do whatever they want, then it's a dictatorship04:33
predatorfreakThere might be elections, but there's only one guy on the ticket :P04:33
sepenyeah all of we are fucked all the time?04:33
pitillosepen, I think you are mixing things again04:33
sepensure04:34
jesse_crux a democracy? Yeah, I'm dead certain it is.04:34
pitilloI don't see the point of elections, time gives responsabilities to people04:34
predatorfreakjesse_: Sarcasm? :)04:34
predatorfreakpitillo: That was a reference to Cuban elections as a relation to how things work with CRUX.04:34
predatorfreakNot a suggestion of elections for CRUX04:34
pitillopeople here with lot of time at their backwards I think they must know how are things done04:34
sepenbut the fact is that core has a few devels, and that isn't a good semi-democracy imho04:34
predatorfreakMy point was there's only one choice without doing your own semi-fork.04:35
pitillopredatorfreak, I don't see the point of elections, really04:35
predatorfreakWhich is why we have personal ports trees.04:35
pitillopredatorfreak, you are free to do whatever you want with CRUX04:35
sepenpitillo, no04:35
predatorfreakpitillo: Read what I just said again.04:35
predatorfreakThis is a LINUX distribution, it doesn't need to have elections.04:35
pitilloyeah, I readed it that is why I answered with that04:35
predatorfreakpitillo: You misinterpreted it then.04:36
pitillopredatorfreak, well, it can be possible then, sorry04:36
pitillosepen, who is stopping you to do whatever you want04:36
pitillo?04:36
predatorfreakNo problem, we all do it from time to time04:36
sepenpitillo, pkgmk04:36
pitilloyou will do it in a non official CRUX way, but you have the choice04:36
pitillosepen, patch it and use it in your own04:36
sepenpitillo, i.e04:36
sepenpitillo, Pkgfile's without deps04:36
sepenthe actual tree of repos04:37
sepenmore and more04:37
pitilloif core members see that patch and can give you reasons to don't use it,  better, because may be you will learn something04:37
sepenor I should part from crux04:37
sepenI fork my own distro based on crux04:37
pitillosepen, if they think it's the proper way to go, you are free to do whatever you want with it04:37
pitillosepen, that's a solution and I think more people did it before04:38
sepenyeah, my own fork you mean?04:38
pitilloand more people will do it04:38
predatorfreaksepen: What do you mean with "tree of repos"?04:38
pitillosepen, your own fork or work or whatever you want to call it04:38
sepenpredatorfreak, i.e: I hate the actual opt repo04:38
pitilloaways again, sorry04:38
predatorfreaksepen: You mean you want to unify stuff or something? o.O04:39
sepennop04:39
predatorfreakExplain it to me fully then XD04:39
sepenIm thinking on a core with a few ports (not 100 or more)04:39
sepenand a opt repo without xorg dependencies04:39
predatorfreakahh.04:39
sepenI like the idea of having a xopt repo04:39
sepenwho decided to extract x11 from opt? and make a new xorg repo?04:40
teKthe guy with euid==0 on crux.nu04:40
cptnwho cares?04:40
sepenthere are a lot of thing that I don't like04:40
cptnit's transparent to the user04:40
cptnwhether it's in opt or xorg04:40
predatorfreaksepen: The original reason was due to the sheer size of a broken-out xorg.04:41
cptnsepen: does this impose and practical disadvantage to CRUX?04:41
sepenand what was the Per opinion? you known?04:41
predatorfreakI really wish they wouldn't have done that shit, it really just made shit a bitch.04:41
cptnI mean, are you limited by this separation?04:42
predatorfreak(Xorg splitting up X11)04:42
predatorfreaksepen: He was gone by then, I believe04:42
sepenthats only an example04:42
nipuLpredatorfreak: i thought it was a good thing04:42
nipuLeasy to bump releases of a component04:42
predatorfreaknipuL: To some extent I did, but I thought they went a bit too far on some things04:42
predatorfreakwhere there's blasted proto header releases and shit04:42
nipuLbugs are fixed quicker04:43
predatorfreakWhy couldn't they just package xorg-headers or someshit?04:43
nipuLin terms of actual releases04:43
predatorfreakThey split it out SO damn much, instead of like xorg-server, basic core libraries, optional libraries as separate packages, etc.04:43
predatorfreakEvery single component got it's own split-out bit <<04:43
cptnsepen: Per's approach previously was to have as little splitting as possible04:44
cptnsepen: so I doubt he'd like core/opt/xorg/xopt04:44
predatorfreakcptn: TBH, I don't like the contrib/opt split.04:44
sepenwell and I accepted that, just I mean that I don't like it, but in a dictatorship I should accept that04:44
predatorfreakI think we should have more rigorous standards for contrib.04:44
cptnpredatorfreak: then you didn't understand what it's about04:44
predatorfreakBut make it more like opt.04:45
predatorfreakInstead of trying to have the "random community folk" of contrib04:45
predatorfreakand the "developers" of opt.04:45
predatorfreakBy having better standards for contrib, we can eliminate the "trust" issue of contrib.04:45
predatorfreakWhich is the only distinction between them, they both serve the same purpose.04:45
cptnno04:46
cptnthere are some people that don't function in a team04:46
cptnbut do good work nevertheless04:47
cptnthose won't ever make it to contrib04:47
cptnerr, opt04:47
predatorfreakcptn: Then, in truth.04:47
predatorfreakThey should maintain their own work outside of official channels.04:47
nipuLand they do04:48
predatorfreakI see the division between opt/contrib as detrimental.04:48
sepenme too04:48
cptnthen you have a million duplicated ports and work04:48
nipuLdetrimental is a bit string04:48
nipuLstrong04:49
predatorfreakcptn: We already do.04:49
predatorfreakLook at freaking personal repos.04:49
sepenyeha04:49
sepencontrib should avoid this, and it should be certified by contrib maintainers and the rest of the team04:49
predatorfreakMy personal repo alone has a number of forks of core/opt/contrib ports due to changes I wanted to do.04:49
cptnthat's not the same though04:50
jesse_It is an impossible task to please absolutely everyone, bear that in mind.04:50
cptnpredatorfreak: many people just need random ports as dependencies04:50
cptni.e. sdl*04:50
jesse_Personal repositories are what the name itself says, personal with their own preferences.04:50
cptnmaintaining them (without having special requirements) would be duplicated work04:50
predatorfreakcptn: In a sense it is, I have to keep deluge out of contrib/opt explicitly BECAUSE it depends on a properly build GTK to function04:50
predatorfreakAlthough, I should push for librsvg in opt and as a depend of GTK.04:51
nipuLlibrsvg is an example of why split repos can be a good idea04:51
nipuLlook at the deps for it in the gnome repo04:52
predatorfreaklibrsvg is an example of why they're braindead.04:52
predatorfreakIn order for deluge to function, librsvg needs to be installed04:52
predatorfreakGTK rebuilt, it's modules updated04:52
predatorfreakand THEN deluge will work.04:52
nipuLwell that's no biggy04:53
predatorfreakIf librsvg was in opt as a depend of GTK, that shit wouldn't happen.04:53
predatorfreaknipuL: AFAIC It is, it requires people to run through hoops just to install deluge04:54
nipuLthen why not include every codec that mplayer supports at a dependency04:54
predatorfreakBecause libavcodec supports 99% of them04:54
predatorfreakFor playback purposes.04:55
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nipuLwhy do you need to rebuild gtk for svg support?04:55
predatorfreaknipuL: The module is not built if librsvg is not installed04:55
nipuLthe module is built by librsvg04:56
predatorfreakNo, it is not.04:56
nipuLlucas@akira:~> pkginfo -l librsvg | grep gtk04:56
nipuLusr/lib/gtk-2.0/2.10.0/engines/libsvg.so04:56
nipuLetc04:56
predatorfreakAt least, not as far as I could tell.04:56
predatorfreakI had to rebuild GTK here.04:56
nipuLno, you just had to run gtk-register04:56
predatorfreaknipuL: That didn't work back when I tried it, but whatever.04:57
nipuLit's worked for me that way for years now, but yes, whatever.04:57
predatorfreakFor some odd reason librsvg appeared bork for me.04:57
predatorfreakAlthough, librsvg should have a post-install, to reregister the GTK modules.04:58
nipuLpkgadd/pkgrm should have install/remove hooks04:58
predatorfreakDefinitely.04:58
cptnpredatorfreak: it has one, but doesn't run gtk-register04:58
cptnbut gdk-pixbuf-query-loaders04:59
nipuLwhich is what gtk-register does04:59
cptnah04:59
predatorfreakCrap I'm blind today04:59
nipuLeat more carrots05:00
predatorfreak/usr/bin/gtk-query-immodules-2.0 > /usr/etc/gtk-2.0/gtk.immodules05:00
predatorfreakThat needs to be run though05:00
predatorfreakno wait05:00
predatorfreakStill blind05:00
predatorfreakThen why in Gods name doesn't librsvg + deluge ever work out of the box o.O05:00
mike_koops: wrong God detected05:01
nipuLi'm pretty sure that if god existed, he wouldn't care05:02
nipuL"works for me"05:03
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tilmanflemwars again?05:30
tilmanflame*05:30
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pitilloall talks without sharing the same opinion is a flamewar?05:31
pitillo(let's start another one then) :P05:31
tilmanpitillo: no, note the question mark05:31
tilmani don't have time to read all of the backlog :)05:31
pitilloyeah, I was joking. I noticed the question mark and I remarked it with my Q :)05:32
joacimwat05:32
joacimthere was a flamewar which I didnt start?05:32
pitillotilman, if you have some free time, try to take a read to the backlog05:33
tilmanok05:33
tilmani have very little time for IRC atm05:33
tilmanyou might have noticed ;)05:33
pitilloyeah, we noticed it05:33
pitillobtw, you are here (with more or less time) and that's important05:34
sepennp, jue in vacations, sip disapeared, tilman busy, all the work goes to cptn05:35
sepen:)05:35
tilmani'll have more time again in two weeks or so05:35
tilmansip didn't disappear05:36
tilmanhe's just very busy at work05:36
sepenhe hasn't time for maintaining his ports05:36
sepentilman, yeah I understand, I've a lot of work at office too05:36
tilmanto some extent, yes05:36
sepenthis is a good reason for more core recruitments imho05:37
tilmanyou mean opt?05:37
tilmanports in core are handled by the core collective05:37
sepennot only ports05:38
sepenthe whole development of a distro is not centered on packages/ports only05:38
tilmantrue05:38
tilmansome help with pkgutils6 would be great05:38
tilmanunfortunately nobody seems to be interested in it :P05:38
sepenwhy not?05:39
tilmanbecause nobody sent me patches05:39
sepenbut i.e: me isn't in the devel team05:39
tilmanyou don't have to be part of the devel team to be able to send patches for pkgutils6 though05:39
tilmanbut anyay05:39
sepentilman, it exists a TODO file? or ideas for developing in the correct direction?05:40
tilmani'm not going to be sucked into a discussion now05:40
tilmanbbl05:40
sepenok05:40
tilmanno tengo tiempo05:40
sependon't worry, lo entiendo05:40
sepen:)05:40
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pitillotilman, is there a way to look for the new pkgutils6? I mean if your work is published somewhere to let people know how are you doing it and let them study the new version to see if they can contribute in any way.05:59
cptnpitillo: it's in git05:59
pitillocptn, thank you.05:59
cptnhttp://crux.nu/gitweb/?p=tools/pkgutils.git;a=shortlog;h=pkgutils606:00
sepencptn, and can I see the prtverify crontab line in some place? (I suppose is using crontab for that)06:01
cptnsepen: I don't think they're online06:01
sepenhmm06:01
sepenits relative to my last ML to crux-devel06:02
cptnyeah, I guessed :-)06:02
cptnyou'd like to add a message-id, right?06:02
sepenyeah06:03
sepenI think the problem isn't in mailman, and it resides in how the mail is sent to the ML06:03
cptnI think tilman thought about the mailman archive06:06
cptnbut also see my post06:06
cptnI don't think it's a good idea06:07
cptnsorry :-)06:07
sepenohh np Im going to read it now06:07
sepenI'm according to separate it too06:08
sepensounds better than my suggestion06:08
rxican anyone tell me what the last volume/issue of the crux digest from the ml?06:08
cptnrxi: there was an openssl notification on may 2906:10
rxicptn: thanks .. i dont really trust it to keep me up to date06:12
cptnpitillo: I don't see it as a flamewar at all06:17
pitillocptn, right, that is why I asked (with a humor touch) that Q :)06:18
cptn:-)06:20
cptnI think it's an important though06:21
cptnthat we can discuss these things without getting into a flamewar06:21
sepenyeah but tell that to aon too06:22
pitillotrue, sharing opinons realted to CRUX mustn't be a start point for a flamewar06:22
pitilloall can be discussed/talked/reasoned and finally arrive to a point that we can understand each others06:23
cptnsepen: I've yet have to see aon behave unreasonable06:23
cptnbut I can let him know06:23
pitillowith this I don't mean to force anyone to share other's opinion, but at least, understand it06:23
sepen:)06:23
sepencptn, just was a joke06:24
cptnsepen: okay :-)06:24
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cptnalso, occasionally a message just gets "lost" because no one has time06:25
cptnlike sepen's on threading the mails06:25
sepenbut I liked how predatorfreak tried to inish the flamewar06:25
sepencptn, I can understand that, also I don't have time often too06:26
sepenand also my english sucks always. and you make a effort trying to understand me06:27
sepenjust thanks06:27
cptnI thought that mail was very clear06:27
pitillothat's a good point... understand us must be really a pain sometimes06:27
pitilloand the fact of slow typing too (due to think and translate some words sometimes)06:28
sepenyeah, a real and big difficult in my case06:30
sepen:)06:30
sepenwell now time to eat, bbl06:30
cptnpitillo, sepen: I think it all depends on the amount of respect you get06:34
cptnthe more you're respected, the more people will try to understand you06:34
cptnthat was meant as a compliment BTW :-)06:35
cptnthat said, typically I don't have problems understanding you06:37
cptnand most of us aren't native speakers anyway06:37
pitilloI think we must respect each others in all senses, like I said before, all what you get is all what you give06:39
cptnyes, exactly06:39
pitilloand our english level (at least with vocabulary) is growing bit by bit (I think we are improving grammar a bit too, but this is the hardest part)06:40
teKthere's no 'I readed it' in english ;)06:42
teKBTW06:42
nipuLthat's ok, most english speakers have a hard time understand australians too06:42
nipuLatleast in irc you don't have to deal with my accent06:43
pitilloteK, right (taking note... read/read/read... at least it is an easy irregular english verb)06:43
pitillonipuL, or with our gipsy english accent xD06:44
nipuLi do on a daily basis, i work in in internet cafe, lot's of overseas tourists come in06:48
tilmanrxi: you could check whether you're still subscribed in the mailman web UI06:48
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nipuLsome are so bad at english they just resort to pointing at the computers and mumbling06:48
tilmanrxi: our mta was misconfigured some time ago, that could have caused mailman to unsubscribe you ;o06:48
nipuL"mmmm aah mmm...inter..net"06:48
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pitilloxD06:51
rxitilman: nah just mailman just has it in for me06:58
joacimI do when i have to explain something in my native language07:00
cruxbot[opt.git]: qemu-bin and kqemu: adjusted urls for new website07:17
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cruxbot[opt.git]: poppler: updated to 0.8.307:45
cruxbot[opt.git]: fontconfig: updated to 2.6.0.08:08
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aonyeah, well, if you consider counter-"sarcasm" a flamebait perhaps i should start ignoring everything that's said here08:58
aonand bug reports that i get08:58
aonsince they're mostly useless anyway08:58
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sepencptn, could be possible to see directly this link without download it? or its the pmwiki way you decided?  http://crux.nu/gitweb/?p=misc/scripts.git;a=blob_plain;f=svn-notify.sh;hb=HEAD09:04
aoni don't think that has anything to do with pmwiki since it's in gitweb09:05
sepenohh its trye09:05
sepen*true :)09:05
sepenbut maybe a git configuration?09:06
sepens/git/gitweb09:06
sepenfor .sh files I mean09:06
aonyeah, that could be good indeed09:07
sepenor as pitillo told me .. apache conf for this file types?09:07
aonnah, since you're not directly accessing the file09:07
sepensure, but the link could be rewrited by apache in some cases (mod_rewrite)09:08
sepenwell I don't known09:08
aonbut in this case it's not09:08
aonand it won't affect the mimetype09:09
sepenhmm09:09
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cptnsepen: I have never looked at gitweb09:49
sepenhmm09:49
thrice`there is a devel meeting today ?09:50
sepencptn, Transfer-Encoding: chunked09:51
sepenContent-Type: application/x-sh09:51
sepenhttp://rails.wincent.com/wiki/Setting_up_gitweb  ->> MIME types09:51
sepensounds that http headers are sent when trying to view some kind of files09:51
cptnyeah, I'd expect that :)09:52
sepenXD09:52
cptnmime.types is not only used by apache though09:53
sepenyeah09:53
Rotwangis there a point of installing files to /usr/share/mime if shared-mime-info is not present on the system?10:12
Rotwangi guess not :x10:13
Rotwangany opinions?10:17
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cruxbot[opt.git]: gtk: updated to 2.12.10.12:09
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trimoin !12:45
pitilloyo tri12:45
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Rotwan1uh its impossible to edit comments in FS?13:21
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mernilhi all! :-)14:48
rehabdollumeåååååå14:48
mernilyeah, the hardcore capital of the world :-P14:48
luxhhah :P14:50
mernilluxh: it's true! according to wikipedia at least!14:50
mernilyou should allways trust info on the internet! (tm)14:50
mernil(r)(c) 2008 all rights reserved14:51
mernil;-)14:51
luxhlies!14:52
mernili was just on a store here in my neighboorhood who got robbed. I had to bought something to show my support.14:52
luxhand you bought like a chocolate bar?14:52
mernilluxh: i bought some condoms14:53
mernilto be used "just in case" ;-)14:53
mernilno, i bougth some stuff who dont have an english name to it14:54
mernildanish i think, tobbacco14:54
luxhwhat is it called in swedish?14:55
mernilsnuff14:55
mernilor snus14:55
mernilin swedish ^^14:55
joacimeeww14:56
mernili think only sweden has that delicatess. It's banned in the rest of europe14:56
joacimit is sold in norway too =)14:56
mernilmaybe so :-)14:56
luxhi only take it trunk14:57
RyoSits yeyo :P14:57
RyoSnosepowder14:58
mernilnosepowder? you mean the white gold?14:58
RyoSdamn right xD14:58
mernil:-D14:58
luxheh meant drunk14:58
tilmanugh, snus :x15:00
RyoSbtw, i second tilmans expression :P15:01
joacimtried it once.. spat it out in someones pottyplant15:01
RyoSlulz15:02
tilmanRyoS: not sure you have the right idea. you don't take it via teh nose afaik15:02
luxhyou put it under your lip15:03
RyoSi was kidding tilman15:03
tilmanyeah15:03
RyoSi had it once too, packed up in those little "bags"15:03
RyoSthat you put under the lip. its not tasty :P15:03
mernilit's tasty!15:04
RyoSyou're serious? well its years ago that i tried it..15:04
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mernilIt is tasty, if you are used to it.15:08
mernilmsoltyspl: yo rapper15:11
mernilwhat's up dude?15:11
mernilhow's it hanging bro15:11
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mernilpedja: hola15:14
pedjahello15:14
mernilpedja: what's up dude?15:14
RyoSmernil: should one really get used to it? :P15:15
RyoStoo bad i already smoke ;)15:15
RyoSi should start quitting that hehe15:16
mernilRyoS: you smoke :-/ .. that's not good!15:16
mernilokay, cigars i can accept, but cigarettes.. no way!15:16
RyoS:P15:16
mernilor pipe! :-)15:16
RyoSlol15:16
joacimpipe makes you look old =)15:18
mernilno, it makes you look intelligent! ;-)15:19
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mernili dont support tobacco at all. i wish i could quit. and someday, i will!15:20
merniljust need to find me an alternativ drug first15:21
treachnicotinell? :>15:21
mernilthat's for sissys :-)15:21
joacimCanabis15:22
treachhopefully it doesn't give you cancer though. :>15:22
RyoSlol15:22
RyoSi just saw that this snus is produced at swedish match15:22
RyoSmy dad worked there :P15:22
mernilRyoS: that's why you also rock!15:23
RyoSyou think so? XD15:23
mernil;-)15:23
RyoSjust remembered, but the companys split (daughter company where he works now :P)15:24
RyoSwho cares? :D15:24
mernili dont care, i dont even want to talk about snus15:24
mernilim more intressted of talking about my pasta sauce i made today ;-P15:24
RyoSuuuuh mail some15:25
mernilno.. i should prolly shut up :-)15:25
RyoStssssss15:25
RyoSegoist!15:25
mernilbut i think it was the best batch i ever have made! fatastico!15:26
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RyoSitalians here?15:26
mernilRyoS: if i have the time, i will send you the resipe15:26
RyoSwe need a valuable critic15:26
RyoShehe ok ;)15:26
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tilmanhttp://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7436671.stm \o/15:38
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Rotwan1new chernobyl wannabe?15:40
Rotwan1hehe15:41
treachhow come you always get the feeling nuclear power proponents are lying through their teeth whenever they say "there is no problem, the situation is under control" etc. :>15:45
tilmanyeah15:48
tilmani think i'll panic in a while15:48
tilman:)15:48
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rehabdollrelax, a nuclear plant 70km from where i fucking live caught guys with explosive compunt a few weeks ago16:06
rehabdolli bet i'll die in a nuclear distaster before any of you :)16:06
rehabdollcompound asdf16:06
treachdistaster. How tasteless. :P16:06
treach;)16:06
treachas for the newsitem itself, wasn't it just _traces of_ explosive compunds?16:09
rehabdollyeah16:09
rehabdollbut that doesnt sound as scary :)16:09
treachthe guy was a known criminal, maybe he was prepairing another hit somewhere else. :>16:09
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trihm anybody here have ever installed a beowulf cluster ?16:11
tridoes it make sence to use blade systems for this kind of cluster ?16:12
treachdepends on the purpose, presumeably. not sure why you'd use it rather than mosix either.16:18
triwe would like to run our nastran software on a beowulf cluster16:20
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tribut am not sure about the hardware yet16:20
treachok16:20
treachfrom what I've gathered, blades are mostly good when you're low on floor space.16:22
treachdesity > performance.16:22
treach*density* dammit16:22
triso ok we are low on rackspace :-)16:24
triare you running some kind of cluster ?16:25
treachno, I just played around with it a bit at uni. my prof. also worked for a company that sold linux clusters.16:26
trigerman company ?16:27
treachno, I don't think so. I don't remember what it was called though. :/16:27
pedjaheh.'nastran'='kinky,screwy ' (in serbian) :)16:28
tri:-)16:31
trihttp://www.mscsoftware.com/products/msc_nastran.cfm16:31
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luxh_-_-*18:20
sepenO_o18:21
luxhexactly :P18:22
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nipuLany ideas why revdep would be spitting out "couldn't open file" continually19:17
nipuLeven if i increase the verbosity it doesn't tell me what files it can't open19:18
sepennipuL, use strace for getting the file which can't be opened19:19
sepenno idea by revdep does it19:19
nipuLit's just a bash script, i'm going to throw in some debug statements19:19
sepenhmm19:20
nipuLit's in prt-utils, it's for finding ports that need rebuilding19:20
nipuLwell ports that lost some shared libraries because a dependency got upgraded19:20
sepenyeah I known this problem19:21
nipuLah, read only root files19:30
sepenhmm19:30
sepenyou need privileges? thats all? nice19:31
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nipuLwould be nice if you could run it unprivileged though19:34
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mernilhi all!20:25
mernili have a slight problem .. girl problem20:25
mernilshe is so bad at english :-/20:26
mernilso i cant hear what she is saying .. and it makes me dumb as well, when i have to ask here 2-3 times20:26
luxhmaybe she's just shy20:27
mernilbut. i have a real swedish flag here, that i want to give her. Is it a stupid gift?20:27
mernilsomewhat it seemes nerdy20:28
mernilshe is from africa btw, i dont give swedish flags to swedish woman :-)20:29
luxhgive it to her on june 6th20:29
mernilluxh: maybe a good date!20:29
mernilor rather a good date!20:29
mernili have always given away flags for certain forrigen students. The last one got so happy, because she had wished one, without my knowing. So.. :-)20:32
mernilIt's nice to make people happy!20:32
mernilThat's me! :-)20:33
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nipuLthe new coreutils is breaking older kernels20:42
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nipuLhttps://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=22448321:04
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nipuLweird, it's a glibc function, but it's only affecting my cruxes with old kernels21:18
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nipuLjust verified it, upgraded an old box from 2.20x to 2.25x all the "function not implemented" errors went away21:56
mwansaanyone got the old crux-2.2 iso21:57
nipuLwhere did you look?21:57
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nipuLfrom what i can gather it breaks all kernels < 2.6.2222:28
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