IRC Logs for #crux Tuesday, 2008-09-23

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pitillogood morning01:17
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mike_kteK: teK04:54
teKzabbix 1.6 is out04:56
mike_kteK: thanks, but I'd stick to the 1.4 branch for another 2 months. Until new and shiny bugs will be cleaned out.04:57
mike_kor should I blindly bump the version? =)04:58
pitillohey, is someone using e17 snapshots version? I hope he can contact me.04:58
teKmike_k: I will test it :)05:00
mike_kteK: thanks, I'll give a try too. But I'm sure there will be many new bugs in a meanwhile.05:01
mike_krephraze, please05:13
teKyou expect 1.6 to have many bugs?05:15
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mike_kThat was true just after every new stable branch release. Why should it be different now? The worst sort of bugs affect database structure (after an update procedure). That is what I am afraid of.05:18
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treach ... oops. :>05:38
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clickonceHello guys06:51
clickonceWould you do -P fix or -P ignore when running lilo fails because the Windows partition is misaligned? (It does not end on cylinder boundary)06:54
Romsteryou mean lowercase -p06:59
RomsterAlways try -P ignore first, as -P fix will re-write the partition table, possibly destroying all partitions on the disk.06:59
Romsterman lilo06:59
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Romsteri'd be wanting to dd the 512 bytes to a usb stick just in case.07:00
clickonceIt is uppercase -P :)07:01
clickonceLet's hope this shit will work. Stupid Microsoft and Lenovo putting their partitions where they shouldn't be.07:02
clickonceI do not dare reboot... :)07:04
clickonce3 errors when booting Linux and then kernel panic..07:08
rehabdollatleast you booted :)07:10
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Romsterit is indeed lowercase as by the man page07:11
Romster-p     Require interactive entry of all passwords specified as "" in the configuration file.07:12
Romster-P {fix|ignore|<global-option>}07:12
Romsteroh bugger it i got it reversed.07:12
Romsterit's not easy to see the difference.07:12
Romsterstupid font.07:12
treachthat's what you get for using gothic fraktur fonts. ;)07:14
treachlol ->
Romsteri could only read the translation ;)07:25
treachof course, but that's not really the point. :>07:25
Romstertrue, well that typeface is worse to read than what i got now.07:26
treachyou write a letter, lambasting a font as "Schwabacher Judish", and what font do you use in the letterhead..? :D07:26
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Romstergood point.07:28
treacherrm, I mean "Schwabacher Jewish". Not sure what "Schwabacher" refers to, but I'd guess it's some german province or something. :>07:29
treachapparently some village.07:29
Romstermaybe you'd know better in them matters.07:32
treachstill, hilarious.07:32
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clickonceWindows boots fine.07:51
clickonceI'll just have to recompile my goddamn kernel.07:51
clickonceBecause it panics due to wrong modules being modules.07:51
treachsimple rule. Do not use modules. :>07:52
clickonceTrue =)07:52
clickonceI'll make everything non-modular now.07:52
clickonceBtw, if I change the partition types of sda6, sda7 and sda8 to Linux and LinuxSWAP will that automatically reposition the partitions that I do not touch inside fdisk? (I wouldn't like to realign sda1 and sda2 since windows is there)07:54
clickonceSo they'll stay where they are?07:55
treachyes, unless you're using some terribly broken tool.07:56
clickoncefdisk :)07:56
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treachrealignment shouldn't happen unless you start deleting and recreating partitions.07:56
clickonceOkay, nice.07:56
clickonceI have backed up all my precious iTunes music though07:58
cruxbot[contrib.git]: ethtool: New port.08:14
sepenjust weird that nobody maintains ethtool on contrib yet :)08:15
clickonceCompiling the kernel brings back so many memories...08:20
go|dfishFrom the ricer days!08:22
* treach takes opensuse 11.1 b1 for a testrun in vbox.08:22
clickonceNah, more from when I was 12 and a nervous wreck installing Linux =)08:22
thrice`treach: given up on 11.0?08:24
treachno. "in vbox" :)08:24
thrice`so, you're running 11.1 b1 from 11.0?08:24
thrice`I read something funny about 11.1 b1.  something with it frying network cards for people with e1000e08:25
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treachthrice`: it's the kernel, so you might be careful with any .27 rc's..08:27
treachafk for a little while08:27
thrice`heh, isn't ubuntu shipping that kernel as their default next month? :)08:27
dinx <<08:30
clickonceDamn kernel still panics.08:35
dinxbeen through a few myself. i seem to have a few more modules than i should.08:35
clickonceHmm, it can't open my root partition.08:37
clickonceStrangely I've included all the drivers that should be necessary.08:37
clickonceAt least I think I have.08:37
clickonceHmm, has /dev been changed to /devices?08:38
clickonceJeez, I really need to use Linux more often.08:38
clickonceI am like a newbie all over again.08:38
* Romster looks awestruck08:41
* clickonce looks confused08:41
Romster/dev has not changed.08:41
clickonceWhen my kernel boots, everything I see is /devices/platform paths. :)08:42
Romsterand i have very little issues with modules, noting a recompile and depmod -a don't fix.08:42
clickonceI was begining to think that is why it can't find /dev/sda808:42
Romsterwell you've broke something.08:43
clickonceI guess I have the wrong drivers.08:43
Romsterlspci -nk08:43
clickonceIt's a ThinkPad T61, do I need SCSI device support for the kernel to find my hdd?08:46
dinxdepends wheather its full IDE or not08:46
jaegeror if you use the new libata drivers, which need scsi support08:50
clickonceI said yes to what I need under SATA (Prod) PATA (Experimental). I do not know if that use libata or not.08:55
jaegerthat is indeed libata08:55
* clickonce goes to **** himself08:56
clickonceDamn, more than one year without compiling a kernel and you're back at 200BC08:56
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miossyxHi guys!08:57
jaegerheyo, miossyx08:58
miossyxSome boot-from-raid specialists here?08:58
miossyxI want to install CRUX to a RAID1 but I cannot get lilo to boot it.08:59
miossyxHi, jaeger!08:59
mike_kreal hw raid?08:59
miossyxsw raid.08:59
miossyxtwo sata harddisks on Promise TX2 30008:59
miossyxmd0 = sda1 + sdb108:59
miossyxcrux is on md0...09:00
jaegerhave a little experience there though haven't done it with crux specifically09:00
miossyxWell... the raid works fine09:00
jaegernot too hard, just need to set up an initrd with enough to get your raid going before the rest of the boot09:01
miossyxI just cannot tell lilo to boot from /dev/md009:01
clickonceRamdisks are hell...09:01
miossyxno initrd...09:01
mike_ktell it to boot from sda09:01
mike_kand make sure you have a working boot loader on sdb too (to boot if the first hdd fail)09:02
jaegeryeah, lilo doesn't have to know about the raid, it can boot from one disk or the other and then the raid takes over after09:02
miossyxI had a setup like this (without initrd) running in my former company... but don't remember how I configured lilo there.09:02
miossyxJup... lilo goes to both hdds09:02
miossyxHold on a second... I'll post the config.09:02
mike_kyou may also install a boot loader on a usb-stick09:02
jaegeror a floppy or cd if that's the way you prefer09:03
mike_kI have a running crux on mdraid somewhere... without a damn initrd though09:03
miossyxlilo runs fine... kernel is used.09:04
miossyxbut it doesn't boot...09:04
miossyxsda1 and sdb1 are marked as bootable. (fdisk flag)09:04
jaegerwithout an initrd your root raid isn't configured yet at the point it tries to switch the root to /dev/md0, I would think09:05
treachand lilo doesn't understand md's anyway iirc09:05
treachnot sure if grub does09:05
mike_kgrub:  kernel (hd0,0)/boot/vmlinuz root=/dev/md009:06
clickonceAfter doing make all it said "root device is (8,8)" does that mean it has somewhat selected the root= device during compilation?09:06
treach"make help"09:06
treachdo not just blindly use arguments to make for the kernel09:07
clickonceI haven't.09:07
clickonce"make all" does do what I want to do. I just haven't ever seen it say that "root device is" after a compilation.09:07
clickoncemake all does: make vmlinux modules bzImage09:08
miossyxHmm... I try it with lilo -m /dev/sda09:08
mike_kmiossyx: simply install grub (I don't know why it should fail with lilo) on each of hdd's like it is the first one (changing accordingly and boot it from either hdd.09:08
* treach is back at trying to trick 11.1 into vbox09:09
miossyxI want lilo...09:09
miossyxI already had a setup where lilo is working...09:09
miossyxlilo -M /dev/sda to be precise.09:09
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miossyxnow it works...09:11
jaegertreach: 11.1 of what?09:12
treachbeta 1, opensuse09:12
miossyxAnybody interested in "how to install CRUX on RAID1"?09:12
miossyxMaybe even for the website?09:13
treachalready found some interesting bugs. apparently the installer won't let you create a swap partition, but when you try to proceed without one, it warns you and says something like "do you really want to proceed like this?" :p09:13
jaegermiossyx: can't hurt, in my opinion. that's what the public wiki is for, no?09:14
miossyxHmm... I'll have to check my account there...09:14
miossyxI've been away from crux for a while.09:15
jaegerI know the feeling09:17
jaegerI gave up most of my ports because I lost the time to dedicate to crux, only recently coming back09:17
treachcrux, addictive substance for computer geeks. :>09:17
miossyxWell, I've changed my job... unfortunately to a Windows-only company.09:17
miossyxI am the first here with a linux server.09:18
jaegergonna try to get an install of it going on my eee soon09:18
miossyxWell... and it's CRUX of course ;-)09:18
treachjaeger: that sounds.. interesting. :p09:18
miossyxI got an aspire one last week...09:18
jaegertreach: at the moment I have ubuntu-eee on it, pretty fun little box09:18
treachyeah, I'm envious. :)09:19
jaegerhave /usr and /var/cache compressed with squashfs and overlayed with a CoW type unionfs on both09:19
treachI wish I had the budget to get one of those little buggers. :>09:19
dinxjaeger: you still looking after gnome ports ?09:19
jaegerdinx: yes, though they're in need of some updating, which I get too slowly09:20
treachcompiling firefox on it seems like a bit of a challenge though. ;)09:20
jaegerhow so?09:20
miossyxBasically, I can recommend the Acer Aspire One. The only thing which is really bad is the audio output...09:21
treachssd disks, cpu adequate, but not really designed for tasks like that, I guess.09:21
jaegertreach: ah09:21
miossyx120GB HDD, 1GB RAM, ...09:21
jaegerI'd probably build it in a tmpfs if possible09:21
miossyxquite nice.09:21
jaeger20GB SSD and 2G RAM on mine09:21
miossyx3h with a full battery09:21
* dinx hates dinx. since they stuffed a Broadcom card in his aspire 5100 09:22
dinxhates Acer09:22
jaegerbuild in a tmpfs or put a 1.8" HD in it. there's room in it, though not a lot09:22
miossyxAnother bug: If the backlight brightness is turned low, it starts to flicker when there is access to the harddisk... :-(09:22
jaegerdoh, that's weird09:22
miossyxWith a new BIOS they just limited the brightness to the brighter three steps.09:23
jaegerdinx: I had tons of trouble getting my aspire 5150's atheros card to work but with a very specific madwifi snapshot it's been happy09:23
miossyxBut the wlan on this little thing is fascinating...09:23
dinxjaeger: cool. bought a PCMCIA Atheros based and had no troubles since09:24
dinxuntill the day i dropped my laptop and cracked the card09:24
dinxso i am back to the broadcom one09:24
miossyxI can even see ssids from other houses 200m away in downtown munich.09:24
dinxusing ndiswrapper09:24
dinxim sitting in the same room as router and signal strength is 70% O_o09:24
jaegerdinx: ah, that sucks :(09:25
jaegermiossyx: nice09:25
treach"Free Internet" :p09:25
dinxmiossyx: sweet.09:25
dinxtreach: lol09:25
treachheh, my phone picks up my neighbours wlans, but I haven't had time playing with it. Hopefully it doesn'a announce itself on their nets without telling me. :>09:27
clickonceWow, my screen goes crazy when I start Xorg.09:28
clickonceWhite, blue and green lines appear here and there.09:29
miossyxWell... how can somebody register at the CRUX wiki?09:29
jaegerhrmm, odd... my eee drained its battery while suspended09:39
treachit does that apparently09:40
jaegergood to know09:40
treachit seems to be a known problem, apparently the battery leaks, about 14mA even when the system is *off*..09:42
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jaegerI guess I'll plug it in more often when I'm not using it mobile, hehe09:43
treachheh, seems like the "Wind" have the simliar issues. :p09:45
Romsterlilo can boot from RAID-1 only.09:46
miossyxromster: Yes it can. :-)09:46
jaegereven with that it's still a pretty cool box, I don't regret buying it :)09:48
treachyeah. "traditional" laptops are just too heavy lugging around.09:49
treacheither that, or you have to rob a bank first, before purchase. :>09:50
Romsterand guard it with your life.09:51
treachI had a real scare when I forgot my r40 at the uni a few years ago.. A minor miracle I didn't run someone over on my way back. :>09:54
clickonceI got it running.10:06
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miossyxHow can I add it to a Category to have it shown on ?10:15
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cruxbot[xfce.git]: libwnck: Removed. Moved to opt collection.10:23
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cruxbot[opt.git]: libwnck: New port (moved from xfce and gnome collections)10:26
sepenjaeger, now Im maintaining libwnck in opt, and I removed it from xfce, so if you want ... feel free to remove it from gnome collection too10:26
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ximondaOk... back with my last nickname...10:26
miossyxmiossyx -> ximonda.10:27
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ximondaHmm... can anybody tell me how I can add my Wiki page to a Categroy so it's shown on ?10:28
juejust add something like -> Categories: [[!Install]]10:29
ximondato my page?10:29
ximondaOk, thank you.10:30
sepenbbl, going to home10:30
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ximondaPlease have a look and check for typos...10:33
treach"harddisks", I presume.10:34
treachximonda: besides, there is no point in creating raid arrays for swap10:36
ximondaHmm... I've read something different.10:37
treachwell. that was wrong.10:38
ximondaIf a disk fails, the system doesn't crash if swap is on raid.10:38
ximondaand swap on raid1 is tested well.10:38
cruxbot[opt.git]: sqlite3: update to 3.6.310:39
cruxbot[opt.git]: lame: update to 3.98.210:39
cruxbot[opt.git]: xsane: update to 0.99610:39
treach....ok. Personally I'd question if swap was valuable enough to warrand a raid1 partition, but what ever floats your boat.10:39
ximondaHmm... For this server I really prefer uptime and reliability over anything else...10:41
treachbesides, there's still a 50% risk it'll go down anyway. :>10:41
ximondaAnd a failing swap parition will most likely kill your system...10:41
ximondatrach: please explain...10:41
treacha redundat swap won't save you if you're swapping on the faulty drive.10:41
ximondaswap is on /dev/md210:42
treach*redundant*, dammit10:42
ximondaof one disk fails, the system shouldn't go down.10:42
treachbut it's made up of two parts10:42
treachbut how does raid1 work, really?10:42
ximondaSorry, I don't get your point here.10:42
treachusually you just use one disk and mirror it to the other.10:43
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treachnote that I'm not trying to shoot down the idea, just pointing out that there's more to it than just creating a mirror and then calling it a day.10:44
ximonda So, you think that if the system is in heavy swap on /dev/md2, it will break down if one harddisk fails?10:46
treachno, I say there's a 50% risk it does10:46
ximondaWhat's the point of raid1 then?10:47
ximondaSwap = data...10:47
ximondaso if your statement would be correct, there would be no point in putting data on a raid110:47
treachyou're confusing different things.10:48
ximondait it would fail with 50% on a single hdd failure.10:48
treachyour data != your swap.10:48
treachbut anyway, relying on raid 1 instead of backup is foolish anyway.10:48
ximondaWell... there are backups... anyway.10:49
ximondaI just want to save maintenance time if a harddisk fails.10:49
treachwell. it's not like you can leave it that way, right? :)10:49
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treachconsidering the hypothetical corrupt swap partition is on the same failing drive as some of your data. :)10:50
ximondaQuoted from
ximondawer Abstürze vermeiden will, swappt auf RAID1, dann steht der Swapspace auch noch bei Plattenausfall zur Verfügung10:51
ximonda    * Swappen auf RAID1 ist praxisgetestet und funktioniert spätestens ab Kernel 2.4.17 vorzüglich und auch bei hoher Last sowie bei parallel laufendem RAID-Resync!10:51
ximondaOnly in german...10:52
ximondaSo... that's what I want... prevent downtime.10:52
treachtut mir leid, aber ich glaube daß mein deutsch nicht sharf genüg for das ist. :>10:52
treachaber, anyway. 50% risk of failure is still better than 100%, right? :)10:53
ximondaTranslation: If you want to prevent crashes, swap on RAID1... swapspace is still available when a harddisk goes down.10:53
treachyes, but it's an oversimplification.10:53
ximondaswap on RAID1 is tested and working since 2.4.17 perfectly and even during heavy load and during a running resync pf the raid.10:54
treachthat's not what I'm saying.10:54
ximondaWell... I just don't see your 50% are coming from...10:54
treachI'm not saying it doesn't work.10:54
ximondaMaybe I had too much beer yesterday evening at the Octoberfest. ;-)10:55
treachximonda: I suggest you take a good look at how exactly raid 1 works.10:55
treachwhich disks are used, and how.10:55
ximondaOk, treach... I will read the code of md.10:55
treachit's NOT like stuff gets written simultaneously on both disks.10:56
treachwell, that might be taking it a bit too far. :p10:56
ximondaAnd anyway... I did several tests on some other server also with swap on raid... no problems at all when I unplugged one of the harddisks..10:57
treachI do not get where you got the idea that I claimed so.10:57
ximondaSorry, I still don't get your point...10:58
treachit's a probability problem. anecdotical evidence is useless.10:58
treachximonda: my point have to do with how raid 1 really works, and how that relates to swap, and corrupt data.10:59
treachyou do know that it is possible for a raid 1 to mirror corrupt data, if you're unlucky?10:59
ximondaI am quite sure how raid1 works... I was hacking quite some time in linux kernel drivers...10:59
ximondaData is written to both disks from memory...11:00
ximondaand not read back and mirrored to the other disk...11:00
ximondathat's old style raid1.11:00
ximondaIf it would be as you wrote above, you would be right...11:01
treachI know it's written from memory. but how is it read, and which disk is the "master"?11:01
ximondaSorry, I don't want to discuss this further...11:01
treachfine with me, I feel we are not really getting eachother.11:02
ximondaWell... doesn't matter.11:02
treach"Wir sprechen einander vorbei", I think you'd say. :)11:02
ximondaA kind of...11:02
ximondaI think understood your point now... but I am quite sure that linux' raid1 works differently.11:03
ximondaWell... reading the code will tell...11:03
ximondaor asking Andrew11:04
ximondaor somebody from the raid ml11:04
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treachximonda: according to
treach"MD implements read balancing. That is, the RAID-1 code will alternate between each of the (two or more) disks in the mirror, making alternate reads to each."11:09
treachie, one good disk won't save you, since half the swap would be corrupt.11:09
ximondaI would expect md to realize a read error from the disk and rereads the data from the other disk.11:11
Romsteri use raid on 2 disks with the same priority and it shares out between them ximonda11:11
Romstererr s/raid/swap/11:12
treachximonda: true in the best case. (drive is dead.)11:12
ximondaWhen I tried to simulate failing harddisks (hot-unplugging them) at some time around 2.6.18 the md took about 20 seconds to realize that a disk was failing (throwing tons of errors).11:12
ximondaBut then it recovered fine without further complains.11:13
treachyeah, again, I'm not saying it doesn't work.11:13
ximondaIn the server I just replacing the disks I had a harddisk with read-errors...11:13
Romsteri've never tired to hot swap though11:13
ximondaWhen the data came back, the data was correct...11:14
treachRomster: with ATA? :D11:14
ximondawhen the harddisk couldn't read the data, it just threw an error...11:14
Romsteryeah sata211:14
Romsterthe hardware probably isn't hot swapable.11:15
ximondaI hot-plugged pata... it's rough but no problems there.11:15
Romsteralthough i have pulled out cdroms on IDE in the past :D11:15
ximondasata is electrically hot-pluggable.11:15
ximondasas can also do it logically.11:15
Romsterximonda, but if the driver handles it is the issue.11:15
aoni once accidentally hotunplugged pata and was wondering why the hell new software wouldnt't start11:15
aonsolaris9 didn't crash from detaching the hdd11:15
Romsterjsut ran off ram eh11:16
treachheh, sata should handle hotplugging.. question is, is it correctly implemented by everyone involved? :>11:17
treachI've never dared trying. :p11:17
Romsteri haven't had the need to yet.11:17
ximondaLinux doesn't crash if you unplug a harddisk and re-plug it...11:18
treachximonda: that's not what I mean.11:18
Romsteralso been meaning to test powering down some of my cpu cores to sleep.11:18
ximondaThe drivers reinitialize the harddisks when it was detached as part of their error-recovery.11:18
treachximonda: I'm just afraid I'll be standing in a cloud of blue magic smoke if I try because some little korean rice peeler screwed up someplace. :>11:19
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Romsternah at worse you'll end up with a dead controller :D least would be a freeze.11:20
ximondaWell... I had to make sure the system keeps on running at that time... otherwise I would have never got on holiday.11:20
ximondaOk, guys, I have to leave now.. going home.11:21
treachtake care11:21
ximondaThank you for the discussion, treach. :-)11:21
treachheh, you're welcome. :p11:21
ximondaAnd thanks for the help anyway :-)11:21
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clickonceHmm, "Network Controller: Intel Corporation Unknown device 4230" must be my wireless intel card, mustn't it? My 1Gbit Intel card is already working.13:07
jaegerget any more info if you update the pci IDs?13:09
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sepenjaeger, did you see my comments about libwnck?13:47
jaegerI wasn't here at the time but I saw it later14:07
clickonceHmm, would it be possible to get dualhead console? Like switch between monitors using keycombination X and switch between virtual consoles on that monitor using the regular Meta-FX14:14
sepenclb, did you know 'screen'?14:15
sepenopps clickonce14:15
sependualhead console? :) my bad14:16
jaegernever seen a thing like that, myself, but it would be neat14:22
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clickonceI did include the generic IEEE802.11 stack and all Intel PRO/Wireless drivers. It still doesn't find my network card.14:40
clickonceWhich is a 4965AGN14:41
clickonceDo I need the stuff from intellinuxwireless anyway?14:41
clickonceI cannot find anything specifically 4965AGN in make menuconfig though.14:42
clickonceAh, had to turn on showing developement/incomplete stuff.14:46
Ovim-Obscurumpcmcia card?14:52
Ovim-Obscurumor usb/pci?14:52
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clickonceOvim-Obscurum: PCI14:59
thrice`you need to install the firmware15:06
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Ovim-Obscurumclickonce: is it listed in lspci?15:33
clickonceIt's up and running now.15:36
Ovim-ObscurumAh, haven't seen, was afk ;)15:36
Ovim-ObscurumNice :)15:36
clickonceYou haven't missed anything. :)15:36
clickonceNow I just have to get wpa_supplicant configured and I'm all set.15:37
Ovim-ObscurumCongratulations :D15:37
clickonceThank you! =)15:37
Ovim-Obscurumno problem :)15:37
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clickonceHmm, my ThinkPad16:53
clickonceHmm, my ThinkPad's fan makes this high-pitched noise when being disconnected from the AC adapter.16:53
clickonceIt does not matter wether I run Windows or any other operating system.16:53
treachlooks like you're in the wrong channel then. ;)16:55
clickonceHmm, you're right.16:56
* treach puts on his most patronizing face; "I usually am." 16:57
clickoncebah :P16:58
clickonceI put it in the window to the left of #crux, much better. (##hardware)16:58
treachhah, ok. :)16:59
treachI used to stack the channels within irssi, but I had to quit since I frequently spoke in the wrong channel. :>17:00
clickonceI have my windows occupy the entire main window.17:01
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nipuLomg, one of my clients actually paid me20:29
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prologicfor what ?20:42
nipuLservices rendered20:45
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