IRC Logs for #crux Friday, 2009-04-24

pitiIIogood morning01:03
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f1yHi.01:24
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dru1dMorning.02:53
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cruxbot[opt.git/2.5]: imagemagick: updated to 6.5.1-603:38
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sepenmorning03:56
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pedjasepen: http://paste.lisp.org/display/7912705:47
jtnlhi all!!05:47
sepenpedja, seems that you started it previously in the background05:49
sepenjtnl, hi05:49
sepenthrice`, are you using the power manager?05:50
pedjasepen: it starts autoamtically when I log into xfce.05:52
pedjaautomatically*05:52
pedjaSession/Startup says so :)05:53
sepenhmm, I'm not currently using it05:53
sepeniirc thrice` is using it for fine, right thrice` ?05:53
pedjashould I disable it there, log out, and try again?05:53
sepenohh I didn't experienced that problem on my home box05:54
sepenon my laptop I'm using the battery plugin, so I think I'll install the power manager to make some tests at weekend05:55
pedjaI installed it, and rebooted.05:55
sepenhmm05:55
pedjait adds itself to autostart, I think.05:55
sepenO_o05:55
sepenso it sucks05:55
sepenthrice`, ping05:55
pedjausr/etc/xdg/autostart/xfce4-power-manager.desktop05:57
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sepenpedja, seems that you need hal as a dependency too06:16
sepenI'll add to the Pkgfile06:17
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pedjaI have hal installed, shouldn't power manager pick it, or it must be explicitly enabled?06:25
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nipuLhave you started the dbus and hald services?06:49
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thrice`sepen: pong06:54
thrice`sepen: yes, but I think it might still be my own port06:55
thrice`the Pkgfile removes $PKG/usr/share/ - are you sure that's not getting rid of some hal stuff that it shouldn't ?06:56
thrice`hm, nope, that's not it06:58
thrice`nooo, adding to autostart is good! :)06:59
pedjasepen: you should set add --libexecdir=/usr/lib to squeeze Pkgfile, otherwise it installs squeeze.tap to /usr/libexec/07:06
pedjagrr, i cant07:07
* pedja sneezes/coughs, like, much :) 07:08
tilmanwtf. major x slowness here07:11
thrice`on your debian or crux?07:11
tilmandebian is dead07:12
tilmanon the laptop07:12
thrice`\o/07:12
thrice`crux64 time? :)07:12
tilmanreboot o_O07:12
tilmanwhat the shit was that?07:14
tilmana reboot fixed it07:14
tilmani'll blame KMS07:14
thrice`I disabled KMS until a new kernel07:15
thrice`I have a 965, and feel dirty patching the kernel ;)07:15
tilmanthrice`: imo that epdfview bug isn't bad enough to warrant patching07:22
tilmanapparently i _can_ scroll with my mouse^wfinger, too07:22
tilmanthrice`: please bug upstream about releasing 0.1.8 instead07:22
tilman:)07:22
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thrice`well, he already put it into SVN.  I find it weird that I hit it with only -O2 , and no -funroll-loops or anything07:30
thrice`ok, sorry for the bug report07:31
tilmannah, it's okay07:32
sepenhmm thrice` pedja. thanks I'll try with the libexec trick07:40
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jaegerhrmm... still getting the '/drivers/whatever' error with insmod on an update ISO08:01
jaegerI wonder if it's a busybox problem08:01
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thrice`tilman: out of curiosity - you mentioned something about a complete xorg rebuild.  is that because of the xcb stuff I've read about?08:37
tilmanyes08:38
tilman(maybe, i don't know what you read :D)08:38
sepentilman, http://www.myspace.com/noctemofficial08:39
thrice`admittadely, just read about it on some gentoo blog, where some one needed a "fix-xcb-shit-and-rebuild-everything.sh"08:39
tilman:D08:39
sepenI know the bassist of this band, he's my friend08:40
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sepenhe recently joins to noctem at same time he had left his last band (where I played sometimes)08:41
thrice`jaeger: I admittadely didn't try to boot an updated iso, but just grabbed the toolchain from it08:41
jaegerrehabdoll: I think a new busybox solved the module problem :) testing now with a defconfig, I'll pare it down if it works right08:41
thrice`so not sure as to which problem you are referring08:41
thrice`actually, I did a live 32-bit -> 64-bit update in a pretty ugly fashion :>08:42
thrice`well, not live08:42
jaegerthrice`: well, the current issue is this: while booting, modprobe/insmod can't load modules properly without a full path08:43
jaegerthat is, modprobe can't load them at all, insmod needs the full path08:43
jaegeryou see something like "insmod: can't load '/drivers/usb/core/usbcore.ko': no such file or directory"08:44
jaegerit's missing /lib/modules/$(uname -r)/kernel08:44
thrice`oh, I see08:45
thrice`what has chagned since 2.5?08:45
thrice`my only guess would be some module-init-tools change, but I dont' think that's been updated08:46
jaegernot sure, to be honest. I even get this problem using the same kernel as the 2.5 release iso, only difference is updated ports08:46
thrice`strange :)08:47
jaegervery08:47
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thrice`oh wait, there was a moudle-init-tools update, it seems09:16
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thrice`I think there is even a newer version than exists in core (3.7) that was recently out09:18
thrice`treach: did you mention having issues with udev on 64-bit?  it compiled fine (without footprint errors) and runs well here, from core.git09:21
treachnever mind, I was thinking you were the one in charge, and the one in x86_64 is lagging, with potential security issues. Though you maybe had fixed it since you you're a 64b user too(?)09:23
thrice`I dont' think anyone is committing to core-64.git09:24
treachah, maybe it should get the boot from that repo too then.09:26
thrice`I have it removed from prt-get.conf, and only look to rehabdoll's secret ports when something fails (which I have only found libgmp so far, due to it specifically calling out a 32-bit configure flag)09:26
treachok, that's good to know09:27
thrice`the number of opt ports is very small too.  a couple require adding -fPIC to CFLAGS09:28
treachyeah, I have that.09:31
thrice`I should just set it globally, I guess09:31
treachI have, no ill effects so far.09:31
treachat least not what I've noticed. :>09:31
* treach hastily locks gcc09:39
thrice`I updated the toolchain from rehabdoll's latest iso (to get it back to the 2.5 set), and haven't had any issues yet09:40
thrice`the updated 2.9 glibc on 2.6.29 headers caused a few funky errors09:41
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treachif you can read swedish, this is a pretty cool hardhack :p ->http://tinyurl.com/cmujn910:21
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aoncool :)10:30
treachyep. that's a novel way to use IKEA. :p10:30
treachweird that he apparently is running kde on it, with twm..10:31
* Rotwang fires up google translate10:33
aonhaha, yeah10:35
thrice`I should probably revive my wicd port before traveling next week10:37
thrice`since I desperately lack wireless-cmd fu10:38
treachheh, that's a mobile cluster; It's got wheels. :P10:38
DarkNekrosNo Comment xD -> http://windowsteamblog.com/blogs/windowsexperience/archive/2009/04/03/windows-on-netbook-pcs-a-year-in-review.aspx11:00
DarkNekrosand the anwser from Canonical xDD -> http://blog.canonical.com/?p=15111:00
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sirmacikHi o/11:33
thrice`heyo11:33
sirmacik hmm... I can't install mc. Thereis internall server error(500) :(11:35
thrice`downloading the mc source file, or?11:37
sirmacikyes, when it's trying to download sources11:37
thrice`looks like their site is b0rken.  could try this:11:40
thrice`ftp://87.51.34.132/pub/FreeBSD/ports/distfiles/mc-4.6.2.tar.gz11:40
sirmacikthanks, there is also 404 with ntfs-3g soruces :<11:40
sirmacikI've download it from your FreeBSD directory ;]11:45
thrice`eek, not mine.  don't be so insulting ;)11:48
jesse_Yet another imagemagick port update. o_o11:51
jesse_If nothing else has to be updated, it probably will be.11:51
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aonhmm12:54
aondoes the functionality of ctrl+alt+backspace depend on your xmodmap or am i hallucinating?12:55
thrice`it's disabled in 1.612:56
thrice`if you want it to kill xorg, I think you need to set "NoZap" or something in xorg.conf12:57
aoni know12:57
aonbanana[~]$ grep DontZap /etc/X11/xorg.conf12:57
aonOption "DontZap" "False"12:57
aonno go12:57
tilmanit might have to be enabled with xmodmap12:57
tilmansec12:57
thrice`oh, sorry, i'm useless then12:58
aonnp :)12:58
thrice`I should have assumed you knew at least that much12:58
tilmanhttp://who-t.blogspot.com/2009/04/zapping-server.html12:58
tilmanthat keymap stuff is _new_ though12:58
tilmannot sure it's in the packages we use in crux :)12:58
aonhehe12:58
thrice`I'll ask the xorg maintainer later12:59
tilmanwhat's with the teasing lately? :p12:59
thrice`actually, xorg has been rock solid lately :)13:00
aonyeah, zaps with that setxkbmap13:00
aonbut turns my beloved citrp into citwp13:00
tilman._o13:00
aonbut iirc there's a xorg.conf option for that, too, so perhaps i should do it there13:01
thrice`I think I had changing to another TTY freeze something initially when the intel driver first updated13:01
tilmanaon: the article says jcristau wrote a patch for xkeyboard-config in april13:01
tilman... that patch shouldn't be in crux i think!?13:01
thrice`tilman: sorry, didn't mean for that to be teasing :(13:01
tilmanthrice`: :D it's fine. maybe i picked the wrong word :D13:01
jesse_What a blunder... what will they think of next?13:02
tilmanjesse?13:02
jesse_I cannot understand why xorg devs went ahead with disabling ctrl+alt+backspace. :s13:03
aoni dunno13:03
aonctrl+alt+f<n> doesn't work either :p13:04
tilmanaon: sounds like your XKB is broken13:04
tilmancheck the xorg log13:04
tilmanaon: or is this with KMS? :D13:04
aonno ee or ww13:04
aoni could try without my xmodmap13:04
tilman/XKB13:04
aonworks13:05
aon...13:05
aondo wtswitch and zap need to be bound in my map?13:06
aon*vt13:06
tilmandunno13:07
aonif so, how the heck are you supposed to get out cleanly if you butcher your keyboard map? :)13:07
tilmanare you sure that Option "DontZap" "False" in Section "ServerFlags" didn't work?13:09
aonit works if i don't load my .xmodmap13:11
aonif i do, it doesn't13:11
tilmanyou need your .xmodmap for other stuff?13:12
aonyes13:12
tilmancan you paste your .xmodmap?13:13
aoncan you first tell me what xmodmap -pke | grep ' 22 ' says on your box?13:13
aon(or whatever keycode backspace is)13:14
tilmankeycode  22 = BackSpace Terminate_Server BackSpace Terminate_Server BackSpace Terminate_Server13:15
aonaha13:15
tilmanthat looks a bit funny13:15
aon:D13:15
aonand 67 is probably something else than F1 too?13:15
tilmanF1 is 67 here13:16
tilman F1 XF86_Switch_VT_1 (* 4)13:16
tilmanerr, *313:16
aonyeah13:17
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sirmacikin witch port I could find monospace font?15:10
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tilmansirmacik: Vera comes with a monospace one15:13
tilmanvera sans ms15:13
sirmacikoh, ok I'll try, thx15:14
treachor just get some better font, like terminus. :)15:14
sirmacik;]15:15
sirmacikbut terminus looks worse on my xterm in size like 8 px15:15
sirmacikwhere monospace looks very good15:16
thrice`I use terminus at 8, I think15:16
rehabdollyay, initial 3d support for r6xx \o/15:16
treachis that on some ancien 640x480 screen..?15:16
treach"ancient"15:17
sirmacikno, 1024x76815:17
treachstill too small I think. :) I use terminus at 14 on 1680x105015:18
sirmacikoh15:19
sirmacikthis is big one resolution, i think. On that screen 8 can be really small ;]15:20
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DarkNekroshttp://xkcd.com/ <- xD15:45
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sirmacikhmm, where I can find djvu font?16:08
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treachsirmacik: prt-get search dejavu ..... ;)16:19
sirmacik;>16:19
sirmacikI forgot about that 'e' between d nad j x|16:20
treach;D16:20
sirmacik* and16:21
sirmaciktreach: ftom what port are You installing terminux?16:30
sirmacik*s16:30
thrice`http://rafb.net/p/iRZsU610.html  :>16:33
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sirmacikthx16:34
thrice`sure16:38
sirmacikso now everything works fine and all is done in only one day (it's my personal record in installing and setting-up crux) ;]16:44
jesse_\o/16:44
sirmacik)16:45
jesse_It gets faster and easier over time, especially when you know what you want out of your machine.16:45
jesse_It also helps to have backups since all you need to do is restore it. :p16:46
treachit also gets faster when you upgrade your hardware. :P16:47
sirmacikat this point I've to disagree because form last time nothing got changed in my hardware :F16:49
treachwell, that doesn't change the point, it's just that it doesn't apply to you. :>16:49
sirmacikI know ;]16:50
sirmacikThat was only my personal opinion16:50
* treach upgrade from an athlon xp2500 with 1.5 GB ram to an x2 5600 with 8GB. Some difference. :P16:51
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jesse_Might be somewhat harder to have it break a sweat from compiling.16:53
treachindeed.16:53
treachfirefox isn't much of a challenge anymore, I'm thinking about installing kde just to see how long time it would take to build everything.16:54
treachit used to take like a whole day on the old one16:54
jesse_Oh teh horror from seeing qt4, kde and its trimmings + firefox needing updates. :p16:55
treachwell, usually they didn't updates all on the same day.16:55
rehabdollfirefox is still the component on my system that takes the longest to compile D;16:55
treachotho, there was kind of an incentitive to not make updates pile up. :P16:56
sirmacikI've replaced compiling firefox with firefox-bin port, now it takes much less time and I didn't recognized any changes in ff work16:57
jesse_Firefox annoyed me too much, which is why I eventually moved over to opera.17:03
jesse_If I don't need graphics, elinks is used.17:04
aonconkeror <317:05
treachvimperator. :P17:05
sirmacikhuh, Opera is really nice browser but as long as it won't have something like vimperator from ff it won't be ma browser ;]17:05
aonah, but that's just a mere ff add-on :)17:05
treachfirefox is a bit annoying with its single threadedness. One tab starting acting up and you're about to lose it all. :/17:07
sirmacikIt's time for me... good night o/17:08
treachnighty17:08
aonhttp://harmful.cat-v.org/software/firefox17:08
jesse_zz17:08
aoni'm beginning to suspect the last item on that alternative list is the best one :)17:09
treach"hich fortunately it is not too often because on Plan 9 we have saner web browsers"17:09
treachwhut? plan 9 has applications?17:09
aonyes, it does17:10
aontoo bad it's so mousehappy by default :|17:10
treachlol @ last alternative17:11
jesse_shut up and hack? :D17:13
treachFrankly, judging by the GNOME codebase people17:14
treachwho designed the thing [GNOME] are culturally incompatible with UNIX.17:14
treach:>17:14
jesse_A non-alternative free version of the windows experience with all of its infamous stability issues and wtf moments. ;)17:16
treachat least it has improved significantly wrt stability; it's still a huge mess though. :)17:17
treachThey really should sort out that fur-ball.17:18
aonrewrite it again17:18
aonGNOME3 :p17:18
treachlol, probably the only feasable way.17:18
aonafter all, as the original cadt development team that's what they should do17:18
treachthe dependency graph is enough to make one cry17:18
jesse_Needs more bloat plus it should be redone in C#!17:20
aonwasn't that the idea at some point?17:22
jesse_If gnome had some decent designing based around simplicity, there would have never been the need for xfce to exist, imho.17:22
aoni remember some people rewriting some apps just because they weren't in mono17:22
aonor xfce could have been what it was17:22
aonie. a CDE clone <317:22
treach"remained"17:23
aonyeah17:23
treachseconded, btw17:23
aonnot that i think that cde is all that great either, but well, better than what's available nowadays :)17:24
treachif cde rocks your boat, why not keep using it?17:24
treachie, what was really the need to turn into "Gnome 2+".. :/17:25
jesse_Maybe they had their very own Nostradamus mention what a cluster fuck gnome would become... then xfce decided to seize the moment. ;)17:27
treachwell, design by political comittees rarely work. I'm amazed it works as well as it does, all things considered17:30
jesse_At times I also wonder how it manages to stay afloat with all of its mass.17:30
jesse_Could be that since gnome can look all shiny it will wash away all other problems. :D17:31
treachworks for mac. ;)17:32
aonugh17:33
jesse_You'd expect apple to have at least used solid design and implentation than hacking arbitrary shit together held by nails and bubblegum. :p17:39
treachwell, sure they have. That doesn't change the fact that osx has many, many fundamental problems that gets glossed over by the "shiny-factor".17:40
jesse_Nevermind that! Look at how smoothly everything minimizes or zooms to the dock!17:41
jesse_Now shut up and buy more noise from itunes. ;)17:43
treach:>17:43
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jesse_I suppose it beats the gratuity of Ballmer shouting developers over and over.17:45
treachwindows is so fundamentally flawed it's not even funny.17:46
treachso maybe we could leave them out, it's like beating up someone physically disabled. :>17:46
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jesse_The special olympics of arguing on the internet. ;)17:49
treachwindows is fundamentally a 1 user, 1 harddrive, 1 application at a time system with 0 networking.17:52
treachIt can nominally change those things, but the remedies are bolted on as an afterthougth, and you don't have to look that hard to see that.17:53
treachso, that's why it's like beating up a cripple.17:53
jesse_Instead of addressing fundamentals, the natural way ahead is coming up with quick fixes. That's nice and all until you have to maintain it.17:54
treachthat's when you end up with a 20 GB system without applications.  :p17:55
jesse_There must have been some 'planning ahead' since most users would have several hundred GB of storage. It cannot all be free space.17:56
treachyeah, right. and everyone is on 100Mb/s lines to get their patches and servicepacks...17:57
jesse_Indeed. Many have excellent broadband... as for the rest of you: time to catch up already!18:02
treachthere are an AWFUL lot of people still on dial-up18:03
treachguess they didn't like vista sp1 that much...18:03
aonhmm18:06
aonNT isn't fundamentally that :)18:06
treachof course it is. not the kernel per se maybe, but the system as a whole.18:06
treachjust look at it.18:06
aonwhich part of it?18:06
treachthe entire thing.18:07
treachhow the parts work, or not work together, how things move around for no real good reason etc.18:07
aoni've been doing stuff in a w2003/wxp network with ~10k users18:08
treachso?18:08
aonbut yeah, a single xp home workstation is probably "fundamentally single-user"18:08
treachwell, if windows is so multiuser, why is userdata mixed up with the system?18:09
treachwhy is the users home directory moving around?18:09
aonmoving around?18:09
aonusually it is pretty much where you put it18:10
aon(or the default)18:10
aonwhich has moved from documents and settings to users, yeah18:10
treach/winnt/profiles -> /$someplace/Ican'tremember18:10
aonthat too, yeah18:10
treachwhy doesn't networking work transparently?18:11
aonbut it's not like every unix-based system has $HOME in the same place18:11
treachwhy does it futz around with driveletters. etc etc18:11
aondefine transparent..18:11
treachsure, but it's fixable. moving around the users home in windows isn't nearly as easy, and it's quite prone to break18:12
aonit's pretty easy18:12
treachif I want some place on the network I have to dig through the network neighborhoood (or more modern equivalent), etc. Applications doesn't work natively with networked resources, unless you map up drives, which is kind of cheating. ;)18:13
aon\\blah\foo\bar paths usually work..18:14
treachaon: I'm not saying it doesn't work, just that it's bolted on stuff and you can see it. some of it works better than others.18:14
treachso.. I can do "edit \\blah\foo\bar\baz.txt"?18:15
aonah, probably not, but afaik edit isn't a nt program :)18:15
treachok, you may use wordpad. ;)18:16
aonhow do you access files networkedly in *nix btw?18:16
aoni usually have to mount nfs shares18:16
treachyeah, but remember we're talking about the whole system.18:16
treachbut nfs doesn't lock you up to certain driveletters.18:17
treachyou've got exactly 1 tree to keep track of.18:17
treachanyway, that's the easy stuff, and things they have worked on. Worse is that it mixes user data and system files/settings. That's the real giveaway.18:19
aonyeah, i guess that can happen18:26
treachit's designed that way. ie. if you back up your home dir, that is not enough.18:27
treachyou need to get your crap out of the registry too...18:27
treachand we all know what a mess that is.18:28
treach"the more the merrier". :>18:28
aoni remember being frustrated with windows at some point, but perhaps i just use compliant enough (or outrageously incompliant) software so i don't run into these things18:29
treachmaybe. to me, the need for special tools to get all _your_ data extracted safely for backup etc, is a clear sign of epic fail at design.18:31
treachyour data -> your home directory. system data -> system directory.18:32
treachthat's not rocket science.18:32
aonit seems that almost everything writes to the profile dir these days18:33
aona normal user doesn't even have write access to the registry18:33
aon(yeah, i know you can't really do anything as one of those)18:34
treachI admit to not using windows frequently enough these days to know what applications do these days, but I remember having to dig out peoples shit from the registry, from their homdirs and /application_data/foo/bar/baz/bla18:34
thrice`I envy you guys who can use linux at work :18:35
treachand it annoyed the shit out of me. ;)18:35
aon:)18:35
jesse_No need to separate data when it can all be mixed up in various locations.18:42
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thrice`is viper still around these days?20:19
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