IRC Logs for #crux Sunday, 2009-06-14

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Rotwanggrowisofs got stuck ;O03:45
Rotwang/dev/dvd: closing disc03:45
Rotwangand it sits there03:46
Rotwangdvd keeps spinning03:46
lennartbeen there, done that03:46
lennarti just waited and at some time it was done03:46
Rotwangk it finished ;]03:47
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spaceninjawhat may be causing xorg to go black if I swap between ctrl + alt F6 and F7?05:16
spaceninjaI can't get xorg back05:17
rehabdollare you using framebuffer-console or something like that?05:23
spaceninjashould I use vesa or some special intel framebufffer?05:24
rehabdollno, not saying that05:25
rehabdolljust figuring out what you are using :)05:25
rehabdollno clue, not using a intel gpu05:25
rehabdollguess you could clone the git-tree for intel and play around05:26
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spaceninjaok I'll figure something out05:29
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tilmanspaceninja: what chip? what kernel?05:30
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spaceninja2.4.30 eee pc 900, I used intel m05:31
spaceninjaI mean05:32
tilmanm? wtf?05:33
tilmanmorning aon05:39
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spaceninjatilman: I don't know what you mean with chipset. you mean the cpu?05:58
tilmanno, graphics chip05:58
tilmandon't say "intel" or i'll hurt you :p05:58
spaceninjahehe ok05:58
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spaceninjabut it is intel mobile06:00
tilmanask someone else for help06:00
spaceninjaI think I can live with the problem06:02
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aondoes anyone else have problems with the 'confirm security exception' button in firefox working and not working at random?06:10
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rehabdollworks for me06:48
rehabdolli think06:48
aonsometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't06:48
rehabdollwhen did it start?06:53
aonno idea06:56
aonbeen going on for some time now06:56
aonrestarting the browser helped06:57
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mike_k_aon: might it be that you have updated firefox behind the scenes and did not restart it?07:14
aonafaik no07:15
aonbut seems to work07:15
aonso whatever07:15
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cruxbot[core.git/2.6]: bzip2: compile all files using -fpic.08:17
tilmanrehabdoll: ^^^ in 2.6 we no longer need a special bzip2 port for x86_6408:18
spaceninjatilman: 915GM Mobile 915GM/GMS/910GML Express Graphics Controller08:21
tilmanspaceninja: CONFIG_FRAMEBUFFER_CONSOLE=y08:21
spaceninjaok thanks08:24
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spaceninjaoh, I didn't have direct rendering manager08:25
thrice`a good one to have08:28
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tilmanwell, if you didn't have KMS before, then i do't know whether enabling the framebuffer console will fix anything08:29
spaceninjait works08:45
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kwesokynipuL: ping08:52
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spaceninjaI'm getting an error from drm saying something like, "couldn't read from MCHBAR disabling tiling"09:11
spaceninjaduring boot09:11
thrice`are you using KMS ?09:16
thrice`I don't use intel's FB yet09:16
thrice`mm, actually09:17
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mike_k_kwesoky: he lives in Australia which has very different timezone, AFAIK09:23
kwesokymike_k_: i am in NZ atm and we are about 2hours ahead of them. its around Monday 2.30am atm so i am guessing he will be asleep :D09:26
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spaceninjathrice`: ok09:48
spaceninjaif I click on the "Ports" link on the main menu, a dead link will appear named "Public", and the "Wiki" Link disappears09:50
mike_k_spaceninja: might be after a new ports db rolled out. I believe, it mimics PmWiki menu. consider sending nipuL a mail.09:52
tilmanyes, please do09:53
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tilmanwhat library do i need to play "ISO Media, MPEG v4 system, version 1" in mplayer?14:46
tilmandoes libavformat/ffmpeg handle that?14:46
RyoS_guess so14:46
bombasti think so14:46
RyoS_hey bombast14:47
bombasthey RyoS_14:47
bombastnot much14:47
tilmanmplayer just sits there consuming 100% cpu14:49
bombastsounds more like mplayer.exe14:49
treachtried xine? mplayer hasn't been infalliable for me lately. :/14:50
tilmanguess i could try building mplayer with libfaad or whatevr14:50
bombasti forget what all mine is built against14:50
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bombastNew mutt!16:11
bombastGet it while it's hot!16:11
* aon dies16:12
bombasti killed aon :(16:12
bombastMutt 1.5.20 (2009-06-14)16:14
* treach hides16:15
thrice`127.3 ?16:16
bombastdon't be cute16:16
thrice`they build it 127.3 times?16:16
aonGnus v5.1316:16
Rotwangthey build it 127 times16:17
bombastoh aon16:17
bombastnot you too16:17
Rotwangand 128-th time they get bored16:17
treachmh, I don't actually know. It might be the third attempt at the 127th version. ;p16:17
thrice`well, at least you know what installed O.o16:17
treachRotwang: well, all packages get rebuilt every time some of it's dependencies are updated/changed. :>16:18
treachso I guess they build quite alot of packages :D16:18
treachon the other hand they catch every time some dependency breaks a package pretty quickly. :>16:19
Rotwangtreach: what distro?16:19
treachIt's the only one I'd reccomend for a kde user, frankly.16:20
bombastIt always amazes me what fluxbox users think is attractive.16:20
aonsled or opensuse?16:20
thrice`i pretty un-successfully tried pekwm16:20
Rotwangi've tried opensuse in my job16:21
Rotwangdidn't like it much16:21
treachhorses for courses16:22
bombastive fallen into the old man syndrom16:22
bombastive used openbox for too many years to even think about using something else16:22
bombastlast one i tried out was awesome16:23
bombastand i was like16:23
bombastthis isn't openbox16:23
* Rotwang is switching to lxde soon16:23
bombastisn't lxde just openbox with an fbpanel fork?16:23
Rotwangbombast: i does not know if lxpanel is fbpanels fork16:24
bombastit is16:24
bombastive looked at the source16:24
Rotwangbut lxde is flexible ;]16:24
Rotwangtreach: haha16:24
Rotwangnice site16:24
bombastif i ever switched WM's16:24
bombastit'd probably just be to fvwm16:25
bombastor window maker16:25
Rotwangbombast: try awesome ;]16:25
aonif i used X11 at work, i'd probably use twm for the shock value16:25
bombastRotwang: already have16:25
aonalthough ratpoison/stumpwm are pretty shocking too16:25
bombastaon: what's wrong with twm16:25
aoni don't know16:26
aonsome people don't like it16:26
bombastit's a fine WM16:26
treachratpoison and dwm are the best to keep people from your computer :>16:26
* Rotwang is of to sleep16:27
shimshamBM will keep people away too16:27
treachcya Rotwang16:27
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aonwith ratpoison you don't really need xlock etc16:27
treachbah, console + screen = ultimate deterrant. :>16:27
aonjust hide all windows :)16:27
bombasti think the problem is16:29
bombastpeople never see twm themed and setup16:29
bombastit is a very capable and usable WM16:29
aonwell no16:30
aonit does lack some features that are considered pretty standard nowadays16:30
bombastsuch as16:30
aoni haven't used it in a while, but alt-tabbing couldn't quite be configured to be like it is elsewhere16:31
bombastseems it can be16:32
bombastI see a few configs that make it more "standard"16:32
bombastthat's nice16:34
aonthat's so old i forget what it's called16:35
bombastit can't be too old if he's coding C#16:35
bombastand gtk# at that16:36
bombasti just think the configuration looks nice16:36
bombasti dunno, i just like more basic stuff :)16:37
treachisn't that metisse?16:37
aonthat's what it's called16:38
bombastit looks really nice16:38
bombastbut i guess since everyone is nuts for pastels and 1024x768 vector icons it doesn't have a snowball's chance in hell of getting much attention16:39
bombastdon't mind me, im just bitter.16:41
treachthere's quite a bit more to a modern desktop than that. Basically it seems like the stand alone window manager is going out.16:41
bombasti hope not16:41
thrice`er, according to whom?16:41
treachaccording to pretty much anyone who looks what's happening.16:42
bombastif that ever happened i'd probably stop using X16:42
thrice`where should I be looking?16:42
treachlook at the applications, and what they require, look at the distributions and what they are shipping.16:42
aonfor it is blatantly obvious that our stand-alone window managers will be TORN AWAY FROM OUR HANDS the moment this change to "modern desktop" is mandated to happen.16:42
thrice`heh.  all support stops...NOW.16:43
treachaon: chill, that's not at all what I said.16:43
bombastaon: If Mark Shuttleworth had his way...16:43
bombastthat guy pisses me off16:43
aoni don't use ubuntu so i don't have to know much of what he does16:43
thrice`not me, he does good work (read, investment) for linux in general16:44
bombastaon: I like to watch Google talks.16:44
bombastAnd his was particularly grating.16:44
aoni should unsubscribe that channel16:44
aonit doesn't have anything interesting16:44
bombastYeah, they're going down hill fast.16:44
treach"pretty is everything"16:44
thrice`I still don't understand where your opinion comes from16:45
treach"lets make gnome as pretty as osx" yeah, right, that's the way.16:45
bombastI'm really getting tired of having to bend over backwards and kiss ass and pretend I care about the desktop adoption rate of Linux.16:45
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bombastAnd god forbid you have a non-standard unpopular opinion.16:46
bombastThen you're an elitist.16:46
tek_then you got it quite right with CRUX, I gues16:47
bombastI was reading some forums about how there are huge pushes to remove Terminal apps from major desktop distros.16:47
treachthrice`: I remember when I picked up linux, and how the world looked back then. And I look at how it looks now, and what it will look like if you look beyond "now".16:47
jesse_All resistance is futile.  Obey, otherwise you get a sign saying elitist nailed right on your forehead.16:47
rehabdollwhy all the hate? ubuntu is fantastic16:47
bombastI had to use whatever kde's terminal application is to fix 3 things in Fedora and install 2 apps.16:47
rehabdollits made my life soo much easier16:47
bombastrehabdoll: NetworkManager is a piece of crap.16:47
rehabdolli never need to drive to my parents to fix their computer anymore \o/16:48
bombastIt can't connect to hidden networks in whatever the latest Kubuntu is.16:48
treachbombast: work in progress right now.16:48
bombasttreach: Then it shouldn't be default.16:48
treachblame the distributor.16:48
bombastWhat did I just say?16:48
thrice`I don't think there will ever be a day when window managers will be extinct.  I USE linux to avoid full-blown crap like kde16:48
bombast^ +116:48
aonmy parent runs vista and i don't have to fix her computer16:49
treachthrice`: did I say "extinct"?16:49
aonperhaps i'm doing something wrong16:49
aonor she is16:49
jesse_omg, it works! \o/16:49
bombastI'm not married to Linux either, I'll switch operating systems in a heartbeat if it no longer fits my needs.16:49
thrice`treach: you said "going out," which I took as extinct16:49
treachwell, everything is relative. I don't think it will go "extinct" but I do think it will become more and more obscure, and you will be more and more limited in what applications you can use etc.16:50
bombastI have no issues with wanting to build a Linux desktop, it's the fact Ubuntu and several other big name distros want to change standards to fit their needs so they can make a profit.16:51
bombastX11 is starting to scare me16:53
treachthrice`: just look back, when I started using linux there *was* nothing but window managers. Now it's pretty hard to find a decent pdf reader that isn't ancient or just limping by being barely maintained, that isn't connected to the big two DE's. (Slight exaggeration admitted)16:53
bombastI just try to believe in the power of open source and hope I'm not alone in my ideas of how I enjoy using my computer.16:54
bombastI don't want to fight with 8 daemons, obscure boot scripts for services I've never heard of, etc.16:55
bombastAll to fix a problem I don't even have.16:55
jesse_Indeed. There's an ever-increasing amount of layers needed to get a "standards compliant" desktop.16:56
aoni read that as "lawyers" first16:57
aontrue either way i guess :)16:57
jesse_We'll see more of those as well the way things are going.16:57
bombastWell my issue is that it used to be fairly simple to keep your way of life.16:57
bombastYou just didn't install GNOME or KDE16:57
bombastAnd life was good16:57
bombastNow it's almost impossible :(16:57
RyoS_wget plan9.iso16:57
bombastRyoS_: ls Downloads | grep plan16:58
RyoS_kidding, like always <:o16:58
bombasttrust me16:58
bombasti've thougt about it16:58
aontoo mouse-happy16:59
bombast3-4 years ago I thought Xorg's fork of XFree was the best thing since oral sex16:59
bombastnow i'm starting to question it16:59
thrice`they're switching from hal to udev, which is is my only complaint17:00
jesse_I thought the same as well. Nowadays I'm not happy with what's going on.17:00
bombastthrice`: im actually happy about that17:00
treachthat's interesting also because afaik, hal/udev is pretty linux specific.17:00
bombastif it gets too annoying17:01
bombastOpenBSD has no issues forking shit for being too pompus17:01
bombastthank god for that project17:01
jesse_True, but they've got more resources than crux has put together. :D17:01
treachand that ladies and gentlemen, is irony. :>17:01
treach(obsd forking shit for being pompous, that is.)17:02
bombastjesse_: they write amazing software and would keep linux compatibility as always17:02
aonheh :D17:02
bombastI would trust X11 to OpenBSD far more than X.org17:02
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aonopenbsd has like one x11 guy17:03
bombastFor the past few years I've felt Linux is becoming a windows alternative instead of unix derivative17:03
bombasti mean, i like unix - that's why i use the software that i do17:03
* treach thinks more of mac than windows when he looks at his desktop..17:04
bombastnow everyone's just trying to make money17:04
* aon thinks of dos when he looks at his desktop17:04
bombastyou guys need naked lady wallpapers17:04
bombasti think of humping when i see my desktop!17:04
treachaon: don't worry, we'll call the men in white coats for ya. :>17:04
bombastmy X11 setup is devoid of hal/evdev17:05
bombastand i intend to keep it that way17:05
aoni don't even know what those are17:05
bombastmind control devices!17:05
bombastmy pet peeve is being called an elitist for saying i like things simple17:06
treachevdev is pretty neat
treachit's also linux specific. :p17:06
bombastwhich is why i doubt ill be forced to use it for a very long time17:06
bombastthank god for *bsd17:07
aonwhy aren't you using bsd, then? :)17:07
bombastim lazy as shit17:07
bombasti used freebsd for a while, but ive used linux for so long im just stuck with what i know17:07
bombastim just glad bsd is around to keep linux in check17:08
bombastthey're kind of like the supreme court to our president17:08
bombastchecks and balances ;)17:08
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bombasti would say computers are the only area of my life i could be called VERY conservative17:11
bombastI don't like too much change.17:12
bombastI was furious when gtk made it so scrollbars looked different when they were at the bottom/top of a document/text area17:12
bombasti guess a lot of has to do with peoplw having computers which are entirely too powerful for their needs17:14
bombastif i use the same type of software17:14
bombastthis computer will last me a long time..17:14
bombastjust more disk space and stuff17:15
jesse_My desktop is from 2003 and still going strong. :p17:15
jesse_And yes, it runs crux.17:15
bombastmy cpu is way too much for what i need17:15
bombastsame for the ram17:15
jesse_Amd athlon xp 2400+ with 512MB of ram has worked fine over the years.17:16
bombastyeah, i mean17:16
bombastand this will probably offend some people17:16
bombastgamers have ruined desktop computing17:16
jesse_I don't think that group alone has done it.17:16
bombastthey've had a HUGE impact on it17:17
bombastin a very negative way17:17
jesse_They've certainly played a big part, but they are not the only reason.17:17
bombasti didn't say they were17:17
bombastbut they didn't help17:17
bombastat all17:17
treachoh, yes.. because windows 95 ran like a greased lightning when it appeared.17:17
treachas did xp.17:17
treachand vista..17:17
treachbombast: I hope your sarcasmmeter is in working condition. :)17:18
jesse_Think about it. More horsepower means there's a reduced need to optimize code. This quickly turns on its head that slack coding requires even more horsepower to run.17:19
* bombast nod17:19
bombastthanks to the gamer lust without any real hardware knowledge17:19
bombastdevelopers are never given the chance to fully explore and utilize APIs17:19
bombastThere's already a push for a new DirectX apparently17:19
treachjesse_: but the point is that game companies want to reach as many customers as possible, ie even people with older computers.17:19
bombastA new series of hardware17:20
bombastetc etc17:20
treachthey don't have the power to make people (in general) go out and buy a new computer.17:20
treachbut ms does.17:20
jesse_Microsoft does.17:20
jesse_Given their dominance, when they put their foot down, hw makers don't really much of a choice to say no. ;)17:21
bombastgamers sare some of the most annoying computer users to have a conversation with17:22
jesse_It means someone else will replace them, a more willing partner.17:22
bombastI feel overwhelmed with 4gb of ram.17:22
bombastNow I see 14 year olds with 16GB17:23
treachso, gamers are pretty much just riding the backside of the upgrade wave created by MS bloatware.17:23
bombasti have a feeling linux specs are going to be like mac specs used to be17:25
bombastLike when Windows machines had higher Ghz ratings but it didn't really matter.17:25
bombastI don't plan on upgrading anything but my hard drives for a good long time.17:27
bombastand even now i have 1.5TB17:27
bombastmaybe when i move into the dorms next year i'll buy a video in card17:29
nipuLkwesoky: pong17:30
nipuLare there games that even require that much memory?17:36
jesse_They are probably there for vanity more than performance.17:36
bombastno clue17:37
bombastthe most ram intensive games i have are run via zsnes17:38
nipuLthe main server in my cs department has 16GB ram and I've seen it host 200+ X sessions17:38
bombastMy friend has 8GB of Ram and he claims to need it.17:38
bombastive yet to even hit 1gb on my desktop17:38
nipuLi can't imagine a single user needing that much just for gaming17:38
bombastand I have 417:38
bombastid just buy an xbox17:39
cruxbot[contrib.git/2.5]: circuits: 1.1 -> 1.1.117:44
cruxbot[contrib.git/2.5]: libevent: 1.4.9 -> 1.4.1117:51
shimshamcompiling firefox needs lots of ram17:55
shimshamooffice too17:55
treachI think 1G is enough for ff, 2 if you build it ram.17:56
treachopenoffice takes a cray.  :>17:57
bombastwtf is KMS?19:40
treachkernel mode setting19:40
thrice`want me to open my web browser, and type "KMS linux" into google ?19:40
bombastwell see19:40
bombasti didn't know it was linux specific.19:41
treach@google KMS linux19:41
clbtreach: Search took 0.18 seconds: [Phoronix] Getting KMS Ready For Linux 2.6.29 Kernel: <>; Getting KMS Ready For Linux 2.6.29 Kernel | Linux Developer Network: <>; Linux : Kernel Graphics Subsystem | KernelTrap: <>; Kerio: Kerio Mailserver => RSYNC on KMS LINUX . What if....: (1 more message)19:41
bombastit's for that redhat boot stuff19:41
treachI like that "search took 0.18 seconds" part. :>19:42
thrice`zgrep -i kms /proc/config.gz19:42
bombasteither way it doesn't look like anything i need to care/worry about19:45
thrice`it's a huge improvement19:45
bombastim not too worried about it19:45
thrice`improvement, I said :)19:45
thrice`do you have an intel card ?19:45
bombastAll I know about KMS is that it caused issues on my mom's laptop so I disabled it.19:46
thrice`on my laptop, I don't specify any VGA in my lilo.conf, switching TTY's is instanteous (as is starting / leaving X)19:46
thrice`it makes the kernel responsible for stuff, instead of the server19:47
bombastthat's worrysome19:47
bombastwhy does that belong to the kernel?19:47
bombastseems like an X issue19:47
thrice`it helps in the transition, so it can all run smoother / more efficiently19:47
bombastyes, that might be what it does19:48
bombastbut it didn't answer my question19:48
bombastwhy does that belong to the kernel?19:48
* bombast shrug19:49
bombastAnything that requires a ramdisk won't be used by me so I'm not worried about it.19:49
thrice`it doesn't require a ram disk19:49
treachit belongs to the kernel because it's only the kernel that is allowed to touch the things involved.19:49
bombastinitramfs, etc19:50
bombastI don't bother with that stuff.19:50
thrice`what makes you think you need it ?19:50
thrice`once the intel stuff gets loaded, it kicks in.  an initramfs will make that happen sooner, but it's not needed19:50
bombastI use nvidia so I'm not really concerned with it.19:51
thrice`ok, from that wiki, LATE START shows nothing of an initramfs19:51
bombastHm, you're right. My eyes merged the two.19:51
bombastWell when the nvidia driver uses it, I'll see what it's about.19:52
thrice`s/when/if ;>19:52
bombastI'm not worried either way.19:52
bombastMy framebuffer is fine, X loads fine.19:53
thrice`when I pushed ctl+alt+f2, for example, my terminal is presented instantly.  that's pretty awesome, to me.19:53
bombastI guess so.19:53
thrice`and back to xorg the same19:54
bombastI only do that once every few weeks if that.19:54
bombastSo I'm not too concerned over that.19:54
jaegerregardless of its usefulness that's pretty impressive19:54
jaegernormally a very slow operation19:54
bombastA couple of seconds, hardly a kernel compile time.19:54
treachiirc tilman_ said something about it being needed/helpful for running x in usermode.19:54
treachthat's pretty interesting IMO.19:55
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jaegera couple of seconds to a computer is pretty damn slow19:55
jaegerbut if it's not for you, it's not, simple as that19:56
thrice`it also helps suspend/resume, so the kernel knows how to handle it instead of hack like re-posting to the video BIOS19:56
bombastWell yeah, that's almost word for word what I said.19:56
treachwell, IMO, a few seconds here or there doesn't matter, but the fact that it cleans up a whole mess with different drivers competeing for the same resources is great.19:57
bombastIf it's a feature of a new nvidia kernel, neat. If not, oh well.19:57
bombastbrain fart19:57
bombastI mean, a little faster here and there is always nice - I just thought it was something more.19:59
jaegerit has a lot more potential than just speed19:59
jaegermemory mapping clutter for one19:59
treachbombast: see what I said above20:00
bombastAnd like I said, my only experience with it thus far is having to disable for screen distortion..20:02
thrice`it was kind of hit or miss before 2.6.30, but is pretty stable since20:03
bombasthm, the kernel IS 2.6.3020:03
treachaahh, right, bombast had to disable it in an early version, so therefore it's bad/useless.20:03
thrice`sorry, and only for intel.20:03
bombastthe laptop is intel..20:03
bombastand treach20:03
treachI guess someone should inform the developers. :>20:04
bombastim not passing judgement at all20:04
bombasti just said20:04
thrice`which distro ?20:04
bombastmy only experience with it was that20:04
bombastFedora 1120:04
bombastKDE edition20:04
treachsorry, it's 3:am here, so I'm a bit short on patience I guess.20:04
bombastIt's ok.20:04
bombastI'm 100% indifferent on KMS20:04
* treach is off to sleep, cya.20:04
thrice`I thought fedora 11 shipped with 2.6.29 ?20:04
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bombastthrice`: it has been updated20:05
bombastyum uopdatee20:05
bombaster update20:05
thrice`they update major versions of kernels ??20:05
bombasti guess so?20:06
bombastwhy wouldn't they?20:06
bombastfedora = bleeding edge version of RHES20:06
thrice`sure, but i've never seen a non-rolling distro update MAJOR versions of a kernel20:07
bombastthrice`: hm, maybe i enabled a test version somewhere in the gui?20:07
thrice`I hope that isn't a question for me ;)20:08
* bombast shrug20:08
bombastI don't like messing with her laptop too much.20:08
thrice`anyway, I suppose I'll sleep too.  have to drive to Chicago early :(20:09
bombastI just know she complained that youtube videos distorted the video.20:09
thrice`bye bombast20:09
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kwesokynipuL: have you got a xmobar Pkgfile ?22:03
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nipuLthat's right23:52
bombastglad we cleared THAT up23:52
nipuLoh, he left23:52
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