IRC Logs for #crux Wednesday, 2010-05-12

tilmanfrinnst: the evdev.conf bit that the server installs should stay in /usr/share/X11/xorg.conf.d, right? moving it to /etc/X11/xorg.conf.d/ is wrong because it should be never edited anyway. correct?00:06
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tilmanfrinnst: can you please test? http://e2c2b52771aca382.paste.se/00:15
tilmananyone else who'd like to try xserver 1.8.1 ^^^^^00:15
tilmanlet me know how it goes00:15
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pitillogood morning01:06
jhwmorning01:10
pitillo:)01:11
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entemoinmoin02:38
pitillomorning02:39
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cruxbot[contrib.git/2.6]: aircrack-ng: updated to 1.103:12
cruxbot[contrib.git/2.6]: at: updated to 3.1.1203:12
cruxbot[contrib.git/2.6]: ethtool: updated to 2.6.3303:12
cruxbot[contrib.git/2.6]: dos2unix: updated to 5.103:12
cruxbot[contrib.git/2.6]: fmod: updated to 4.30.0303:12
cruxbot[contrib.git/2.6]: aircrack-ng: added unstaged changes on the previous commit03:12
tadzikyay, updates03:12
luxhhappy happy03:20
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frinnsttilman: seems to work just fine05:28
enteif you're happy and you know it clap your hands!06:02
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spaceninjaclap clap06:10
prologicif you're happy and you know it, then you realy ought to show it, if you're happy and you know it, clap your hands!06:22
luxhclap clap06:23
spaceninja:)06:29
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thrice`tilman, looks OK :>  would something like the synaptics port be a candidate for a config snippet?  out-of-the-box is fun :)06:46
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frinnstthrice`: yeah, we should probably ship some pre-configured .conf's for stuff like synaptics08:51
frinnsthttp://www.obra.se/distfiles/10-synaptics.conf08:55
sinistreisn't that cheating? :p09:00
frinnstyeah, just like our cheating udev-package :D09:03
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cruxbot[contrib.git/2.6]: iasl: updated to 2010042809:41
cruxbot[contrib.git/2.6]: bzr: updated to 2.1.109:41
cruxbot[contrib.git/2.6]: multitail: updated to 5.2.609:41
enteoprah.se? :>09:42
entefrinnst: how does udev cheat?09:42
sinistreand, above all, on who, with who!?09:42
* ente has a cheating udev implementation on his vserver... it's called fudev and is basically ln -s /bin/true /sbin/udevadm :>09:43
entesame for udevd09:43
frinnstente: its preconfigured :)09:43
entedpkg-preconfigure09:45
thrice`mm, I don't think it's cheating.  odds are if i'm installing synaptics, I'd prefer to use it :>09:50
thrice`touchy subject for sure, though09:50
frinnstreally? xorg.conf.d should contain generic configs for various devices imo09:51
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thrice`mm, interesting - isn't 10- a bad number frinnst, since evdev uses it?10:23
frinnstits only used by xorg-server10:33
thrice`I mean, shouldn't synaptics be called 50-synaptics.conf  instead or something?10:34
frinnsthigh numbers would probably be more suited for more exotic hardware such as pens etc10:35
frinnstbut i have no strong oppinion on the matter10:35
tilmanwell, i wonder why xorg-server installs 10-evdev.conf instead of xf86-input-evdev10:36
frinnstyes, that would be more logical :)10:38
frinnstcoordination issues in the xorg team?10:38
thrice`s/xorg/redhat  :>10:39
frinnst:)10:40
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cruxbot[contrib.git/2.6]: tint2: updated to 0.911:00
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thrice`http://mailman.archlinux.org/pipermail/arch-dev-public/2010-May/016825.html   LO11:40
thrice`:O  *11:40
entebrain0 :>11:44
thrice`looks like an interesting distro to run :p11:46
enteI think brain0 is one of the few sane people at arch11:47
enteBut for the rest wouldn't adding such a feature take the pressure from11:48
entethe coders to produce proper code? I think the overhead is something11:48
enteI wouldn't like to see in ArchLinux. At least as long as this can't be11:48
enteswitched off at runtime by the user.11:48
thrice`I often wonder if they know what they are doing11:48
entestill about that -fstack-protector issue... arch has so many bloated parts, why does he complain?11:49
enteindeed11:49
thrice`or if they just bump things and add 'lol' to the commit messages11:49
enteyeah11:49
entempd update. I came. it's so bleeding edge. Yours, pedobear11:49
entethere are so many broken packages from testing going to core... I can't stand arch any longer11:50
luxhwhen i used arch a couple of years ago it was good11:51
enteif you just scratch the surface it looks nice, but if you dig deeper, you start digging through years of crap11:51
luxh:(11:52
luxhi don't like crap11:52
jsearch linux: we keep things simple********************11:52
enteme neither11:52
jseEach * is an exception. ;)11:52
entejse: wrong... each * is at least 10 exceptions :<11:53
entearch is inconsitent and the community is very arrogant11:53
entenever say that in an arch channel :D11:53
entepeople will claim that you talk nonsense and insist that arch is the best distro in the world11:54
entesomehow reminds me of ubuntu :>11:54
luxhoh my11:54
luxhone distro to rule them all11:54
jseSeems just about all of the bigger distros have those types of attitudes among their dev and user ranks.11:55
jseMy distro beats your distro.11:55
ente"who has the largest cock" taken to a higher level :-)11:56
thrice`i'm sure tilman claims that to everyone :>11:56
thrice`bad timing :p11:56
pitilloxD11:56
luxhsure you are just "sure"?11:57
enteimo most of them have advantages and drawbacks11:57
tilmanthrice`: what do i claim?11:57
thrice`'my distro is better than yours'11:57
jsethrice`: when you're the salesman, it helps to feign that you have faith in your wares :p11:57
tilmani don't bother anymore11:57
entefor instance one thing I absolutely love about CRUX is the package management system11:57
tilmani just grin at my coworker sometimes who uses gentoo11:57
tilman;)11:57
entedoes he have -funroll-loops? :)11:58
luxhsometimes grins are better than words11:58
tilmanente: he didn't know that website until recently (i had to tell him)11:58
thrice`everytime I look at configuring fvwm, I get nervous and cry11:58
enteyou can't be a cool gentoo user without -funroll-loops! :O11:58
entethrice`: you configure it once and run it forever?11:58
enteor simply switch to xmonad :)_11:59
jseHahah. gentoo is perfect! Criticism and dissent will not be tolerated.11:59
entehey, ubuntu is perfect too!11:59
enteplus, it has cool brown themes! meaning: ubuntu is da shit, mään!11:59
thrice`ente, mm, maybe11:59
thrice`where is trea^^ when he is needed12:00
enteI just installed ubuntu and now I'm a 1337 h4x0r12:00
enteI know people who actually believe that12:00
jseWonderful...12:00
entebrave new world :)12:00
enteI wonder how it was to be on *NIX like... 10-20 years ago12:01
jseWhat's next? The same group who just found about the eliteness of watching gentoo compile itself for hours and then say the same thing? :D12:01
thrice`"It [fvwm] is actually so old that even the creators don.t remember what the first letter of the acronym stands for."12:01
thrice`:p12:01
entefeeble.12:01
entejse: I think ubuntu is influencing other distros in a negative way12:02
jseProbably. Any specific observations?12:02
entethey patch their ugly hacks into everything, and sometimes they go upstream12:03
enteyou can't rm -rf / anymore with gnu coreutils12:04
entewhich is absolutely pointless since rm -rf ~ still works12:04
thrice`I just worry about them basically forking gnome12:04
enteuh-oh12:04
thrice`I watched mr. shuttleworth's keynote just last night, and they are basically re-doing a ton of gnome components12:04
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j^2ls12:08
j^2oppps12:08
enteoops.pl :>12:18
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Zabaente, GNU rm has --no-preserve-root12:35
enteZaba: goreutils have --awesome-long-options12:36
entewhich makes them incompliant to the standard :>12:36
Zabalong options are a sure sign of bloat.12:36
entetrue dies with 1 if you start it as true --help and close it's stdout :D12:36
entethe standard says "true always returns 0"12:36
ZabaGNU being crap is no news :P12:37
ente:)12:37
enteI somehow want busybox coreutils, but I'm a bit frightened of replacing them on my crux machine12:37
entewhat if it doesn't work afterwards? :/12:38
Zababy the way, rm -rf / doesn't make sense anyway, since that implies removal of '/' itself12:38
Zabarm -rf /* still works12:38
enteI know12:38
tilmanerm.12:38
entebut / is an ordinary directory as everything else12:38
Zabaat least FreeBSD rm(1) doesn't allow rm of / under any conditions.  Probably other *BSD, too.12:38
tilmantrue --help doesn't print anything here12:38
tadzikI'd love something like doguitls12:38
tilmanstrace says it calles write(1, ...) though12:38
Zabaente, no12:38
tadzikhow come dog is smaller in size than cat, while being compatibile and having more features?12:38
tadzikMagic12:38
Zabaente, '/' is a path separator12:38
tilmanand strace -o /tmp/gna.log true --help _DOES_ show the text12:39
tilmanw t f?12:39
entetilman: dogutils?12:39
tadziktilman: try /bin/true12:39
tadzikmost shells override true12:39
tilmangood point12:39
tilmanfucking builtins12:39
tadzik(I'd override too if the GNU was alternative)12:39
enteor use fish, that one doesn't have any builtins :D12:39
tilmanstrace called /bin/true of course12:39
tilman:)12:39
ZabaOld unices had many standard utilities implemented as shell scripts.12:39
ZabaI wonder why the practice is not common these days.12:39
entetilman: well.. gnu bash overrides gnu goreutils :)12:39
tadzikI like Goreutils12:40
ZabaI mean, it makes sense for true to be just '#!/bin/sh'.  And for false to be '#!/bin/sh\nexit 1'.12:40
tilmani'm not running bash12:40
tadzikthe name I mean12:40
tadziknothing else really12:40
Zabaand for man(1) to be a shell script that invokes cat or nroff appropriately, etc.12:40
Zabathat's _half the whole purpose_ of the shell.12:40
tadzikzsh overrides12:40
tilmantadzik: yes12:41
tilman(true is a builtin in zsh, too, if that's what you mean)12:41
tadzikyup12:42
Zabawhat annoys me a lot is how the most common example of bloat, being ls(1) making columns by itself, is ignored so widely.12:42
Zabaand really, posix ls has almost as many options as GNU12:42
Zabathat's crazy12:43
tadzikthis is madness12:43
tadzikare BSD utils alike?12:43
Zabatadzik, most of the 'traditional' bloatness originates from BSD12:43
tadzikah12:43
Zabagranted, most of the very basic tools are less functional than GNU versions, but, e.g., columnizing in ls(1) is a BSD thing.12:43
tadzikI really don't want Plan9 to be the only alternative12:44
Zabasomebody really should work on plan9's hardware support12:44
Zabaand, well, kernel stuff.12:44
tadzikthat's a different case. Imho they're just pushing this no-bloat approach to far12:44
Zabaso it would be at least _somewhat_ viable outside a VM12:44
Zabano, plan 9 is not 'too far' in any regard.12:45
Zabaexcept for maybe being dead12:45
Zabait's a cleanly designed system that hasn't been touched by millions of developers, unlike Unix.12:45
Zababut not being touched by a million of developers means two things: It preserved the cleanness, that's good.  It died, that's not good.12:46
Zabait's Unix done right, but it's late for the train12:46
* sinistre wonders what's so great with acme.. it makes less sense than vim12:51
Zabaheh, I never really understood what's so good about using mouse, either12:52
tadzikI dunno what's so great about using mouse all the time12:52
Zabaand I understand that plan9 hasn't improved the troff a lot12:52
sinistreusing a mouse in a texteditor is down right /retarded/12:52
Zaba(and troff has a huge room for improvement...)12:52
ZabaI should probably get around to design, if not implement (!!!), a typesetting system that combines the design of troff with non-sucky bits of TeX12:53
joacimthis is a perfect opportunity for me to mention that i use a mac.12:54
Zabais it?12:54
* Zaba idly wonders why12:54
Zabaoh, probably because mac users always find it necessary to mention that :P12:55
ZabaI never understood that :P12:55
sinistreZaba: probably because plan9 is OT. :P12:55
joacimindeed =)12:55
joacimactually, i get more people pointing out for me that im a mac user12:55
ZabaI've got a mac mini standing around here12:55
joacim"oh look at that cute little mac!" "oh look at that idiot being raped by steve jobs!"12:56
Zababut.. I can't quite recall when I last booted it12:56
Zabaand for what purpose.12:56
tadzikJealousy12:56
sinistre"Macs, for people with more money than sense", as my brother put it. :p12:56
tadzik(if I pronounced it right)12:56
tadzikit's harder to say than "Zazdrość"12:56
jse(you mean wrote it correctly instead of pronouncing) :p12:56
tadzikyup12:57
joacimi like the mac way of doing things, never quite understood plan9, and i find that most linux distros break when i want to get work done12:57
jse"Zazdrość" = jealousy in polish?12:57
tadzikyep12:57
tadzikif jealousy is what I think it is12:57
Zabaoh, certainly, plan 9 isn't for getting the job done12:58
sinistrehey, it's almost easier to spell, too. :D12:58
tadziklike "I don't like you for you have something that I don't, but I'd quite like it actuallyt"12:58
Zabait's for looking at and going all, "oh, look what a beautifully designed system." and moving on with life12:58
Zabajoacim, what are the things you are doing the mac way?12:59
* sinistre thought it was a product to make you take out your wallet and move on with your iLife12:59
tilmansinistre: no, it's for people who have TASTE!!!111112:59
Zabasinistre, I was referring to plan913:00
Zabait hasn't got an iLife :P13:00
joacimdevelopers and users care about design and usability. about being consitent.13:00
jsetilman: s/taste/money13:00
tadzikˈzazdrɔɕʨ̑13:00
tadzikin IPA13:00
sinistretilman: ahem... or at least who *think* they have it. :P13:00
tadzikoh, whatever ;)13:00
jseAnd a whole lot of annoying attitude.13:00
sinistreZaba: aah, ok, sorry for the mix up13:00
tilman:)13:01
Zabajoacim, personally, I don't think there's going to be a well-designed graphical interface until duke nukem forever is out.13:01
Zabaand I don't mean well-designed as in how it looks13:01
tilmanduke nukem forever has been cancelled, hasn't it?13:01
joacimi never said anything about how it looks13:01
sinistretilman: yeah13:02
ZabaI mean well-designed as in how the hell it gets, or does not get, in my way of doing things13:02
tadzikThey say it'll be written in Perl613:02
tadzik;)13:02
Zabatadzik, I very much hope so13:02
ZabaIt would mean perl6 has more reasons to be cancelled, too.13:02
tadzikwhy should it be cancelled?13:02
ZabaA confusing name is a big enough crime to warrant that.13:03
ZabaIt should have been called ruby213:03
tadzikhey, it's ruby who is stealing from Perl13:03
joacimmac is the only platform I've noticed where developers often hire designers to make the ui.13:04
joacimrather than leaving the ui design for the engineer13:04
Zabait's still a GUI13:05
entebecause the designer knows better what's productive and what not?13:05
Zabadesigned by somebody with a clue, or by somebody with a clue of a completely different nature, it still lives in a broken paradigm13:05
sinistreone size fits everyone. And if the mac doesn't fit you, it's you who are wrong. :>13:06
joacimmac is for people who like macs, everyone else use something else13:07
sinistreexclusive, "take it or leave it", linux is inclusive, "if it doesn't quite fit, get a version that does."13:09
Zaba"If it doesn't quite fit, patch it."13:09
joacimtheyre all the same, just different goals and package managers13:09
Zabajoacim, also different installers.13:10
ZabaBut well, viewing a linux distro as a black box OS is wrong.  It's always just a kernel and a bunch of userland thrown together.13:11
Zabayou can always do anything the hell you want to it13:11
sinistreI'd say the philosophies behind it are completely completely att odds with each other.13:11
Zabawhatever package managers exist, they're just to aid you in doing anything the hell you want.13:12
Zabaif they force you to do something, they're stupid.13:12
Zabaand hell, is there any linux distro that uses service supervision by default for, well, services?13:13
joacimyou can do what you want with whatever there is. the difference is how often it breaks and how able it is to serve your friends and family .13:14
Zabawhat is 'break'13:14
sinistrepulseaudio13:15
joacimlike when my brother decided to keep his ubuntu up2date, the repositories gave him a broken package for gtk13:15
Zabaubuntu's known for bad QA13:15
tilmansinistre: haha13:15
joacimsimilar experiences with fedora and mandriva13:15
joacimthey do not work better for 0900-1700 working family dads13:16
sinistrejoacim: I won't say suse is failsafe, but it's been very good to me and my peons. :P13:16
joacimthese people need what windows and mac currently provides13:16
sinistreusing fedora and expecting reliablility is idiotic.13:16
Zabaninety nine percent of my friends use debian and have never mentioned a breakage13:17
joacimi never get calls from anyone about computer related problems now that i got everyone over to windows and mac again, I'll never be a linux evangelist again :p13:17
Zabajoacim, you know, distros that try to be user-friendly are stupid anyway.13:17
Zabajoacim, they're making the all-time-winner mistake of duplicating the fucking effort.13:17
ZabaThe effort of apple and microsoft, respectively, in making an operating system for those who *don't care*13:18
ZabaLinux is for people obsessed with computers enough to care about their system at least *a little*13:18
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Zabathere are such people, but not everybody is one of them.13:18
Zabathose who don't care, should use a mac os or windows13:19
Zabathose who care can choose what's best for them.13:19
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Zabathose who don't care shouldn't use linux.  Ubuntu, among others, tries to be suitable for them, but what for? Such people don't care about source code availability.  There's no point in them using free software.13:20
joacimI use a mac because I care13:20
Zabaand they most often don't care about open development, either13:20
joacimI'm not saying that everyone who cares should use a mac13:20
frinnstubuntu is great13:20
frinnstits made my life easier (parents run it instead of windows)13:21
Zabajoacim, you don't care about the things I am specifying13:21
surrounderhow did they like the upgrade from 9.04 to 9.10 frinnst ? no problems? :P13:21
joacimI dont care about the source, I care about making good products13:21
frinnstdunno, i started the upgrade for them a few days ago13:21
frinnstthen i left before it finished13:21
frinnst:)13:21
frinnsthavent heard anything yet13:22
surrounderfrinnst: how do they like their buttons on the left hand now ? and the windicators that'll come?13:22
ZabaI care about the source because people are so stupid that I often need to make use of it.13:22
ZabaI mean.. my cell phone's interface has got that nasty bug where a word is not pluralized when it's following a zero13:22
ZabaI want to fix it13:22
Zabait's a trivial change13:23
Zababut I can't, because I don't have the bloody source, the bloody toolchain and probably no way to flash it.13:23
frinnsti still use non-free software (flash, radeon-ucode)13:24
joacimmy phone have this nasty keyboard, calendar and contacts syncing that suck ass, everything requires far too many keypresses to get anything done13:24
joacimi rather just throw it in the river and buy a new phone13:24
* surrounder pets his htc legend13:25
surrounderandroid is quite nice :)13:25
frinnsti prefer my phone to be a phone13:25
joacimwhich i will soon, looking at the new iphone that i expect will be out this summer13:25
surrounderfrinnst: same here, but I also like it to give me ssh for when I'm on call13:25
Zabamy phone is otherwise okay13:25
joacimwill possible look at palm pre or nexus one if theyll ever become available in norway13:25
tilmanfrinnst: nevermind radeon-ucode, that's just firmware13:26
Zabaif I wanted a normal OS with me all the time, I'd buy myself a laptop13:26
frinnstyes, but still dont like it13:26
frinnst:)13:26
tilmanfrinnst: instead of being shipped in a rom chip it's just loaded at runtime ;]13:26
surrounderI have a netbook for that, still I don't always bring it with me13:26
Zabathat'd give me the bonus of a decent keyboard and a decent screen13:26
surrounderrestarting a few services or something is quite doable on a phone, so why not13:26
surrounderlayar is quite nice if you're in a strange town too :P13:27
surrounder+ the main function, using the phone as a phone, is better than my previous nokia (the speaker on that thing sucked)13:28
Zabahm13:28
surrounderI never get the "a phone should be a phone" argument13:28
sinistresurrounder: I don't think switching the phone helps with that problem. :p13:28
surroundermy current phone does a shitload more then a phone whilst being better a phone then my last few phones13:29
frinnsti prefer to my phone to be as small as possible13:29
surroundersinistre: ah well, the contract was at an end anyhow13:29
frinnstiphones are huuuge13:29
frinnstand heavy13:29
ZabaI would like to make calls from a laptop13:29
joacimi dont like phones at all. all I want is a pocket internets device13:29
sinistresurrounder: just kidding ;)13:29
joacimsomething that I can read emails on13:29
* surrounder pets sinistre 13:29
surrounder:P13:29
thrice`my GF got some android phone last week, seems to like it.  though she takes it nearly everywhere13:29
* sinistre slaps surrounder around with a large trout13:30
surrounderhmmmfish13:31
joacimmy boss have one, i dont think she cares. =)13:34
sinistrefrinnst: sure you didn't mix up the iphone with the ipad? :D13:34
frinnstyes13:34
frinnstcompared to my SE w890i, its huge :)13:34
surroundermy htc legend isn't as heavy as my previous nokia e61i13:35
joacimthere are huge-er windows mobile phones =)13:35
* sinistre likes his n82.13:35
surrounderjoacim: and really small windows mobile phones13:35
joacimthe size of current phones are mostly dictated by the display13:35
surrounderyes, gotta love the multitouch screen13:36
surrounderreally nice browsing on those things13:36
joacimsinistre: I have the N78, the phone I want to throw in the river :p13:36
sinistre:>13:37
joacimthe size of the iphone and most similar phones fits my hands and pockets nicely13:38
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mhiI would be afraid that I break it when I'm out drinking.13:56
frinnstwow, steam for linux. now linux-users can enjoy drm-infested games on linux too!14:00
jaegerabout to check out the mac version14:01
frinnsti bought mw2 for windows14:01
frinnsti will never ever ever buy a steam-game ever again14:01
jaegerI've had good luck with them14:04
frinnstwell maybe my steam experience was a bit overshadowed by iw.net14:05
frinnstall the same, ill avoid it in the future14:05
jaegerI have a few games that I play on it pretty regularly14:06
jaegercool, portal and torchlight are available in the mac version14:06
thrice`which steam games run?  don't all require an opengl port, or does it use some wine hacks?14:07
jaegerNo idea what they're doing on the backend but only 2 games listed in the mac section for now14:07
luxhbut if portal works, shouldnt rest of hl2 work too?14:08
jaegerI would think so14:08
thrice`the only thing we need next on linux is working 3D  :D14:08
frinnstworks ok here14:10
frinnstmight nog be that fast, but still :)14:10
thrice`yes, sorry, 1/2 sarcasm :p14:10
* frinnst fires up ioquake3 \o/14:11
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joacimvalve games works fine with steam, but getting GTAIV through steam was painful14:23
joacimthink it wouldve been easier to pirate it14:23
jseWouldn't surprise me if that's true.14:24
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