IRC Logs for #crux Thursday, 2010-10-14

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cruxbot[opt.git/2.7]: xterm: updated to 26404:51
cruxbot[opt.git/2.7]: gnutls: updated to 2.10.205:04
cruxbot[opt.git/2.7]: dialog: updated to 2010042805:04
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kieselsteinijse: sorry I'll change that10:45
jse/away <message> exists for that reason so it's pointless to change your nick.10:47
enteawaynicks are useless11:27
enteon the other hand, ircd implementations of /away suck11:27
entethey don't work on channels and clients have to poll /who11:27
entewindows download over msdnaa is 2% complete11:28
entein the 5 minutes I was waiting for it11:28
enteover my uni network11:28
entewhich has 100Mbit internet connection11:28
mhi^ente: probably an overloaded VPN11:29
entemhi^: no idea11:30
enteit just takes too long, that's all :)11:30
entemaybe microsoft should invest more money in their servers ;>11:30
entebecause the uni net itself is working smoothley11:31
entewell, fuck thius11:31
horrorStruckor just use bittorrent11:31
enteguess I can stay over night11:31
entehorrorStruck: then I get these issues with the licensing keys again11:31
entewindows is such a pile of fail11:31
Ovim-Obscurumente: Last week I donwloaded a 6 GB Citrix ISO in at about 10 minutes11:31
Ovim-ObscurumThat was enormously cool :)11:31
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horrorStruckente: yep. i was just hoping that microsoft would use bt11:32
entehorrorStruck: that would be like agreeing that p2p is not evil. they can't do that, obviously11:33
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enteI wonder when ballmer starts to compare bittorrent with hitler11:33
enteOvim-Obscurum: yes, did something similiar a while back, the bottleneck was my netbook in the end :)11:34
horrorStruckente: it's coming slooowly. iirc some games publishers started using bt11:34
entegames publishers != content mafia11:35
entecontent mafia IIRC sponsors microsoft11:35
enteand vice versa11:35
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horrorStruckwhat is it that you are dl'ing just ooc ?11:36
entewindows xp tablet edition11:36
horrorStruckdidnt know they have a tablet edition11:37
entethey have11:37
enteit doesn't work with the CD keys of other versions and languages11:37
entewhich is why MS OS'es are so amazing11:37
horrorStruckseriously i'm soooooo happy i forgot about all these keys/serial no. BS11:38
enteand they have an exe as downloader11:38
entehow am I supposed to use that under linux, you morons? a link to an iso file can't be so hard11:38
mhi^yea, that's totally dumb11:38
mhi^I faced the same problem when I tried to download some stuff for my father11:38
enteI ended up installing wine11:38
* ente is glad he has a binary distro on the netbook11:39
mhi^as far as I remember I had problems connecting with wine.. but maybe not. I don't know anymore :>11:39
Ovim-Obscurumente: Which distro?11:39
Ovim-ObscurumHusobuntu? :D11:39
entewhat the hell is hosubuntu?11:40
enteubuntu has way too many derivates with stupid names...11:41
* mhi^ installs Ubuntu Satanic on ente's netbook11:42
Ovim-ObscurumThat was pretty cool mhi^11:42
Ovim-Obscurumente: Husobuntu is a fun name, there is no distro with that name. Huso means: "Son of a bitch" and husobuntu says, that ubuntu is really, really bad ;P11:43
enteOvim-Obscurum: oh, I read hosu instead of huso11:43
Ovim-ObscurumTz :D11:43
horrorStruckmmotm 2010-10-13-17-13 flies :O11:44
entemhi^: ubuntu satanic is one of the more useful ubuntu derivates.11:44
entemhi^: one of the most useful, in face11:44
ente13% \o/11:44
Ovim-ObscurumThe artwork was pretty cool in 2007, when I tested it.11:44
enteOvim-Obscurum: did you test hannah montana linux too?11:45
entebtw, when it comes to ubuntu derivates, crunchbang looks relatively sane11:45
Ovim-ObscurumBut I "lol'd" when I discovered it.11:45
Ovim-ObscurumI had releases a ubuntu alpha derivate some years ago, too.11:45
Ovim-ObscurumShame on meh.11:45
Ovim-ObscurumIt even was announced in "freies Magazin"11:46
Ovim-ObscurumAnd I found the name of that distro in an old o'reilly book about ubuntu11:46
ente <- looks like this per default11:46
enteI've been using ubuntu too11:47
enteback then when I had no clue, and when it was closer to debian11:47
enteit felt relatively sane in 2004-200611:47
entelubuntu is official by now, I thiunj11:48
mhi^ente: I think I read that CB is based on Debian now, BTW11:48
Ovim-ObscurumLubuntu was enourmous buggy, when I tested the secound release.11:48
Ovim-Obscurummhi^: Yep it is11:48
entemhi^: wow, that makes it worth giving it a try11:48
entenow I have a distro to install on pcs of friends of mine :)11:49
Ovim-Obscurumente: I install them Arch11:49
entewas thinking about slackware, but then I thought "nah"11:49
enteOvim-Obscurum: I used to do that11:49
Ovim-ObscurumEven my girlfriend uses it :)11:49
enteeven my sisters use it11:49
Ovim-Obscurumhow old is she?11:50
entearch is nrelatively hard to maintain11:50
ente16 and 1411:50
entethe younger one switched back to windows11:50
enteafter she lost the permanent internet access she gained from windows :)11:50
entemain reason was skype, I think11:51
ente16% \o/11:51
entewtf is an sdc file11:51
entelongCamelCasedIdentifier = "h".concat(longCamelCasedIdentifier);11:53
enteI wonder if I should give win 7 a try11:54
entebut first, I need a new PC11:54
mhi^oh, CC really sucks imho.. it's hard to read11:55
* ente looks at the beautiful p4 boxes his uni has decided to throw away11:55
entemhi^: youReallyThinkSo?11:55
entemhi^: iBetYouDontLikeJavaThenImplImplFactoryImpl11:55
mhi^String there_is_a_glitch_in_the_java_matrix = "owned!";11:56
mhi^No, really, I do all my Java appointsments using snake_case11:57
entemhi^: that makes things more inconsistent12:01
entejava defaults to camelCase where possible, and you're the only one with ___12:02
enteif you want _, use python ;P12:02
mhi^I don't give in to Java's conventions!12:03
mhi^and no Python, I use Perl already :P12:03
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enteyou want __pyhon__12:09
enteI mean, __you__ __want__ __python__12:09
mhi^__never__ :P12:09
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mhi^I have no time to learn a new language, but as I said some days ago.. people say Python is clean, but I find it harder to read without { } blocks12:10
ente__see__, __you__ __already__ __adapted__ __its__ __coding__ __style__, __theres__ __no__ __return__ __now__ :)12:10
enteI find it ok to read12:11
enteI don't like it though12:11
enteit's not a matter of readability though12:11
enteI always wanted to learn perl12:11
entemy first programmign language was python, after that came sh and tcl12:11
mhi^Did you modified eggdrops, or what? :P12:12
enteI wanted to understand how Tk in python works12:12
mhi^oh, that's another reason, I guess12:13
enteI ended up learning Tcl instead, and I must say, I loved it12:13
* mhi^ qickly takes a look at its syntax12:13
enteI made some stuff with eggdrop too, but I don't like neither eggdrop nor it's Tcl API :()12:13
mhi^looks quite pythonic12:14
mhi^(from what I can see at the WP page)12:14
mhi^I just thought about what languages I learnt first.. then this question came to my head: "When do you have learned a language?"12:16
mhi^Learning syntax is one thing, but really knowing the disadvantages and pitfalls of language is much more important12:18
mhi^I guess that's why they say "Good C programmers don't like C."12:18
enteTcl? pythonic? :D12:20
enteyou gotta be kidding12:20
enteI'd understand if you'd have said sh12:21
Zabatcl is something like lisp with sh syntax12:21
Zabaor I don't know12:21
entesomething between lisp and sh12:21
Zabanot exactly, of course, but closer to that than to python12:21
enteit has more plaintext evaluation than lisp12:21
ZabaI find its basic idea quite appealing12:22
mhi^ah, LISP.. hmm, first I wanted to say that it seems to have a functional touch12:22
enteyeah, it's nifty and I like the languge, and I have to admit that I used to use it much12:22
Zabaente, you don't use it anymore?12:22
enteZaba: I don't program very much anymore12:22
entepython prevents weird shit way too much12:22
ZabaI wonder, how suitable is tcl for being embedded in programs.12:22
enteit's relatively slow (not sure if slower than ruby though(12:23
Zabait sounds like an awesome candidate for something like a quake-like console language in a game :P12:23
entelua is also pretty nice12:23
entehmm, yes, sounds like it12:23
mhi^ente: Lua's syntax can be quite confusing12:23
entemhi^: lua's conventions can be more confusing12:23
Zabait always irritated me how the actual quake console language is parsed in a godawful way12:23
entemhi^: like the defaulting to nil12:24
mhi^I mean, it's syntax is sometimes totdally different from all languages that I know12:24
Zabaente, but I was more wondering about how its API is suitable for being embedded without messing with the rest of the code12:24
entefunction foo(a)...end ... foo() "tada, good luck figuring that out"12:24
Zabafor example, I know that lua's api is good for that12:24
entefunction foo() result = 0815 ... ... .. . . . .... return res end -- or how about that?12:25
enteluas C interface is nice12:25
enteZaba: tcls c interface is comparable12:25
enteI embedded it sometimes12:25
entemhi^: what seriously?12:25
mhi^I think it sucks :P12:25
mhi^all that stack stuff12:26
Zabalua's api is one of the best language apis I've ever encountered12:26
entecould be worse12:26
mhi^and working with structs is painful somehow12:26
Zabamhi^, stack stuff makes it nice and clean12:26
entepython api *cough*12:26
mhi^Ok, on the other hand Lua is the only language I ever embedded.. and it seems to be quite successful in the last time.. so I think is IS good.12:26
Zabaente, if tcl's is comparable... is there some documentation for embedding tcl aside from manpages for individual functions?12:27
mhi^Lisp is rising again! -
mhi^besides C I really want to learn Java, Perl and Haskell some IA32 assembly12:30
Zabawhy would you really want to learn java?12:30
mhi^Well, its widespread and follow's OO design more than C++12:31
mhi^no, I don't wanna learn Smalltalk :-P12:31
mhi^(and I have to use it at uni)12:32
Zabajava is like a variant of tetris where none of the pieces can fill the holes left by the previous ones, and so all you can do is pile them up infinitely12:32
Zabasmalltalk is actually a vastly better example of an object-oriented language than java12:32
mhi^yea, I know12:32
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enteada?! :D12:33
mhi^but hopefully I won't need any OO knowledge in the future.. I try to get an embedded job.. so it's C/C++/ASM for me12:33
entemhi^: that sounds about like my dream job too12:34
mhi^OS design would be neat too, but I figure it's hard to get such a job12:35
mhi^some R&D of IBM, Oracle or such12:35
enteOS design and compiler design and parsing theory are three of my favourite topics12:43
enteI love doing any kind of lowlevel stuff too12:43
Zabaente, do you know of any documentation for embedding tcl aside from Tcl_*(3)?12:43
enteZaba: reading code that embeds it?12:44
Zabawhere did the authors of that code learn how to embed it?12:44
enteZaba: other than that, probably the tcl wiki at http://tcl.tk12:44
enteit's very good imo12:44
enteZaba: found anything useful?12:49
Zabahmm.. not yet, 'mafraid12:49
enteZaba: this is possibly useful:
Zabaoh, thanks12:53
enteZaba: also possibly seek help in #tcl, they are very nice12:53
ente(and they don't support eggdrop, which is a big plus :)12:54
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aeon-ltdso err anyone here favor crux much more than arch linux?13:15
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jseInstant gratification fail :D13:17
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jseThe 45-second window of opportunity is too much for this channel :D13:23
treachhah, to catch those you'd need a bot trimmed to spam any newcomer with a lenghty commercial as soon as they show up. :p13:25
treachit'd be fun watching them trying to interact with it though. :p13:25
mhi^You probably know this Intel ad already, but it just should be posted once in a while ;]13:36
entered hat advertises if something matches /arch ?linux/13:40
entemhi^: :D13:43
entethe wheel - reinvented! :D13:50
mhi^ente: this one is awesome too :D
mhi^haha @ wheel reinvented13:51
ente[20:27] <@ijchain> <dkf> gaaaah! exchange is a foetid piece of crap!13:53
ente[20:29] < trollasaurus> Indeed.13:53
ente[20:30] < trollasaurus> What did you expect ?13:53
ente[20:31] < beefsalad> password:13:53
ente[20:31] < beefsalad> ;)13:53
ente[20:31] < beefsalad> but I guess I should expect assword: :D13:53
ente[20:32] < trollasaurus> From the company that brought you Microsoft Windows13:53
ente[20:33] <@ijchain> <colin> assward: the history of MS13:53
entesorry :)13:53
enteon the other hand, there are no interesting conversations I'm disturbing right now13:54
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mhi^well, still using sup?13:56
entebut did not get around to configure it whatsoever13:57
* mhi^ nods13:58
mhi^I think I'll just keep up with mutt for now13:58
enteI should just reactivate procmail in order to filter spam13:59
entethat would solve half the problems I'm having with sup14:00
mhi^do so :>14:00
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mhi^and if you find a good IRC proxy on the way, tell me please ;14:06
entemhi^: irssiproxy?14:21
enteand possibly znc if you want it standalone14:22
enteI used to use bip before, but it sucks14:22
entedo not use it14:22
mhi^well, I only tried irssiproxy, but it sucks with playback/backlog14:22
entebefore that, I used miau, it needed one instance per network, other than that, I can't recall anything14:22
enteyes, backlog sucks at irssiproxy14:22
entepossibly bummskraut then?14:22
enteknow quassel?14:23
mhi^well, I want to keep irssi and I want backlog, that's all I'm asking for :P14:23
entedunno then14:24
enteyou might still want to give bummskraut a try :)14:24
enteI stopped using it at some point because I was too lazy to compile AnyEvent::XMPP from git14:24
entethings you don't want to do on ubuntu ;)14:25
mhi^the only reason I want my irssi to run local is.. I want to keep my neat OSD plugin which notifies me on all my workspaces14:25
enteyou can port it to bummskraut :p14:26
enteI bet it's scripting interface sucks way less than irssi's14:26
enteand it's perl too \o/14:26
entebummskraut is 100% perl iirc14:26
entemight give it another try14:26
ente72% of windows :D14:27
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Ovim-Obscurumente ente ente ente ente ente ente15:13
enteOvim-Obscurum: shut the hell up, you are annoying15:13
entestupid windows15:15
treachyou're the one installing it. ;)15:16
Ovim-Obscurumc'mon, windows isn't that bad. ;)15:16
Rotwanghi guys15:16
Ovim-Obscurumhi Rotwang15:16
entetreach: it's not for me15:18
enteI don't want to be fired15:19
Ovim-Obscurumente: That's what the all say ;)15:19
entein fact, it's their servers what's the bottleneck15:19
treachOvim-Obscurum: "progman.exe has performed an illegal operation and will now close, Ignore, Abort, Cancel" ...15:19
entehah, exactly15:19
treachI'll never forgive it that.. :<15:19
enteand all of the buttons do the same15:19
enteall of them just pop the dialog up again15:19
enteexcept one, which is random each time15:19
treachbasicallly yeah.15:19
enteso you have 1/4 chance to hit the right one :)15:19
Ovim-ObscurumLOL treach15:20
treachin fact I think it was "Ok, Ignore, Cancel" though.15:20
Ovim-ObscurumWell that was in the 90s, when 3.11 or 95 was up-to-date15:20
Ovim-ObscurumWindows XP and 7 works fine.15:20
enteAbbrechen, Wiederholen, Fehler in German15:20
treach"Yeah, please do it again" :>15:21
Ovim-Obscurumhehe ente :D15:21
Ovim-ObscurumThat was cool, the good old dos time. :D15:22
treachDOS was fine, 3.11... wasn't.15:22
entewindows 3.11 was better than most of what came after it :p15:22
enteespecially vista15:22
Ovim-Obscurum98, ME and Vista were very, very bad.15:22
ente95 was worse than 98 and ME IIRC15:23
treachmeh, anything was better that 3.1115:23
ente2k was slow15:23
enteXP was ok, vista is garbage, 7 works15:23
entecompared to linux, they all suck15:23
entewindows is a layer of hacks, while unix was originally designed15:24
Ovim-ObscurumBut you need it, if you need some properitary tools.15:24
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mhi^(kebab time!)15:55
enteOvim-Obscurum: awesome15:56
enteOvim-Obscurum: because you need to kill people to defend your country, killing people is good15:57
joacimthe way i remember it, people said xp was a slow turd, so they used 98 or 2k15:57
ente2k takes ages to boot15:58
joacimi didnt really notice much difference between xp and 2k15:58
entejoacim: XP has crappy defaults, if you turn all of them off, it's reasonably fast, but still 20 times slower than linux15:58
joacimi thought that when i was a fanboy15:59
joacimbut now i'm a gornwup15:59
enteI'm not a fanboy15:59
joacimyes you are =)15:59
enteI booted XP last week, and it was horribly slow15:59
mhi^3.11 was just a pimped DOS, wasn't it?15:59
treachjoacim: I thought you were a mac-buttboy? ;)15:59
joacimi never really noticed much difference in speed between those systems16:00
joacimi am =)16:00
entejoacim: a what-fanboy?16:00
entejoacim: a fanboy of thinking maybe, because mankind does not think enough16:00
treachmhi^: 3.11 was a massive hack that did quite a bit more than plain DOS did. None of it well though.16:01
entepeople in computing with the ability to use their brains are so incredibly rare, and the other ones just care about how transparent their stuff gets without making it too slow to waste time on the systenm16:02
mhi^treach: :>16:03
joacimi just prefer where the buttons are on my mac, for what i use it for, the difference in speed isnt noticable16:03
mhi^what I wanted to say.. I believe 95 was the first Windows on its own. 3.11 was just a GUI on top of DOS.. but maybe I'm wrong :>16:03
entejoacim: at least you don't waste your time tweaking your grade of transparency16:04
treachmhi^: that's not true16:04
joacimi waste my time on daring fireball instead =)16:04
enteand desktop effects and shit, since that's already thought out by someone else and a mac is a tool ready to use16:04
treach3.11 shipped stuff like SMB and NetBIOS, etc.16:04
mhi^in that case I take everything back and claim the opposite :D16:04
mhi^I jumped from from DOS right to 95.. in fact I wasn't even knowing that I used DOS, I thought Norton Commander was the OS ;-P16:05
ente3.11 even had cooperative multitasking16:05
treach32bit file access too, iirc16:05
entecooperative multitasking would be ideal if all programs were correct16:06
mhi^let's come to the famous "What was your first Linux distro?!" question.. :>16:06
joacimslackware, because thats what my friend gave me =)16:07
mhi^SuSE 6.4 here; and from then I bought them all up to SuSE 8.0 Professional.. ;P16:07
mhi^but considering that I'm using Linux for over 10 years now, I'm still quite a beginner ;p16:07
enteSuSE 8.0 or 9.0 professional16:08
mhi^used it for years in dual-boot, of course16:08
entebecause my dad had it :p16:08
enteand yes, dualboot with 2k and 9816:08
mhi^SuSE wasn't that bad back then16:08
enteI didn't use it very much16:08
enteafter that came ubuntu after some time of windows only16:09
mhi^yea, one reason was that I wasted a significant time of my youth with playing games :|16:09
enteafter that arch16:09
enteafter that a lot of distrohopping while always going back to arch16:09
entebut arch got worse over time so I looked for alternatives16:09
enteand slackware and crux seem reasonable16:09
enteI never played games16:10
mhi^I jumped from SuSE to Red Hat which was as famous as Debian is nowadays16:10
treachugh, ugh..16:10
entein the time when I did not have internet yet, I installed freeDOS  and used it excessively16:10
mhi^then to Debian.. and kept it like that for some years16:10
enteand played a lot of nethack on it16:10
* treach still remembers red hat shipping a broken compiler..16:11
mhi^I still have the Valhalla cd somewhere :D16:11
mhi^and the original SuSE 6.4 box.. I have to take a photo of that sometime16:11
joacimi used to play enemy territory and americas army16:11
mhi^UT and ET were THE games back then, when I was big at LAN parties16:12
joacimi never went to those, but i played online with a friend16:12
mhi^yea, you got used to ping 200.. :>16:13
joacimmine was around 80, i think16:13
joacimup to 150 at times16:13
mhi^I got from 200 to around 60 when I let Telekom enable fastpath for my connection.. for additional 1 euro a month!16:14
mhi^good old times.. *sigh*16:15
entemhi^: I have that too16:16
entemhi^: I also have a suse 5.2 box somewhere I think16:16
mhi^5.2 must have been like.. 1996/716:17
mhi^Now where I think about it.. on the one hand I still consider myself as.. let's say advanced user, but on the other it's funny to see all those new CS students trying to install Linux and fail bad. (And it's not that hard nowadays anymore..)16:20
mhi^Compiling a kernel is total magic.16:21
joacimi always screw up the kernel config16:21
joacimwhen i have to make one from scratch16:21
joacimtho importing an old config have always worked fine =)16:22
mhi^Okay, the first one for a new system is seldomly perfect.16:23
entemake localyesconfig *hide*16:24
enteI screwed up thrice I htink16:25
enteon slackware, I just use the binary kernel16:26
mhi^There was a also a point when I spent a LOT of time reading Linux forums and mailing lists and stuff.. but at one point you finally "get it". You know where to look if you encounter errors or how to use strace/ltrace and so on.16:26
mhi^You levelled up. ;)16:27
joacimi just throw my errors at google =)16:27
mhi^Often works quite well too, yea ;p16:27
joacimone issue that i havent bother to fix yet, mplayer cant play certain files with a certain unidentified type of aac-track16:28
mhi^Is there a nice error message? :>16:29
joacimhave that issue on multiple systems, so i guess i'll have to wait for upstream to fix it16:29
joacimi dont remember, i dont have those files with me16:29
mhi^I'm a VLC user (even if it's a pain to compile QT)16:29
enteI never needed strace16:31
joacimVLC have improved over the years16:32
joacimi prefer their new interface over their old one, but i think they need some new icons =)16:32
entethey have a new interface?16:34
treachit used to be gtk iirc16:35
joacimgood night16:38
Ovim-ObscurumThanks a lot.16:38
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andariusgreetings and salutations17:31
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