IRC Logs for #crux Tuesday, 2011-04-19

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ThePubcloning nouveau and using the 2.6.38.2 kernel staging driver, will there be much difference between those two options?03:33
ThePubheh, wrong channel.  oh well.03:35
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frinnstente: lol!05:23
frinnstwhy are they trying so hard to ruin unix?05:23
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entebecause they don't understand it06:22
entethey just want a better windows, not UNIX06:22
frinnstbut this isnt better than anything06:47
frinnstits just more complex06:47
frinnstsilly, silly lennart06:47
entelennart: you hear that? :P06:48
frinnsthehe :)06:50
entebut yes, I agree06:50
entethere's just nothing I can do about it06:50
enteexcept patching it out and compiling everything with --disable-dbus06:51
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thrice`that hostname one doesn't bother me too much.  it won't be running for most people, I guess06:55
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juewell, we are not forced to use stuff like systemd, actually next CRUX iso will ship without dbus cause firefox no longer depends on it ;)07:06
laenNiiiiice!07:09
jueIMO at least07:12
frinnst+107:14
enteyep07:14
entenice :)07:14
laenReminds me, gotta try minit.07:21
laenOr ninit.07:42
enteor oinit07:57
enteor systemd07:57
enteso many possiblities :P07:57
enteactually, I prefer the BSD way without runlevels07:57
entefor BSD, all I'd need were better drivers07:58
entethen I'd probably switch :)07:58
laenoinit?08:12
laenNever systemd. Seen it on a system, goddamn the system was crashing itself once a process started having startup problems.08:12
entelae: {m, n, o, p}-init ;)08:23
laenAllright :P08:24
enteabcdefghijklmnopqr-init08:24
entesystemd08:24
entetinit08:24
enteupstart08:24
laenI just wanna see how well they work. And how much they get in my way. Or how 'quiet' they are on a system. As long as it's not something annoying as systemd, i'm quite fine with it :P08:24
laenOr upstart.08:25
ente:D08:25
laenAm i confused with upstart? Mmmm.08:25
enteI'm sitting on an ubuntu machine08:25
enteit's mostly bearable when you don't look at the internals08:25
entebut I think upstart >>> systemd08:25
entehttp://paste.xinu.at/j7Qx/08:25
entebut it's also linked against dbus08:26
entelol08:26
entelibnih :D08:26
laenmeh ;p08:26
laenI'm getting so sick of all those poettering products.. even XBMC depends on udev and consolekit and policykit and dbus and and and.. now.08:26
entestraight from the knights who say NIH :P08:26
laenSerious? :P08:27
Romsterhaving a good run with runit and haven't looked at alternatives.08:27
entewell08:27
enteeven wpa_supplicant depends on dbus08:27
entesince the last release08:27
enteI think08:27
entemaybe you can patch it out, but iirc kfx said it won't compile without modifications or dbus08:28
enteactually, I'm still using sysvinit because I think there's more important stuff than optimising init08:28
laenGoddamn.08:28
enteeven if sysvinit is kinda meh, I don't give a damn :P08:28
laenIsn't there a wpa_supplicant alternative that does not require dbus? Or is wpa_supplicant still the only one working with WPA?08:29
enteI think so08:29
enteI didn't try to build it without dbus though08:29
Romsteris dbus that evil?08:30
laenFunny thing is that afaik the dbus stuff doesn't work without setting it up.08:30
entethe people who made up dbus are idiots08:30
entethat's enough reason not to want it :P08:30
Romstermuch like hal was?08:30
entea bit less08:31
entehal itself depended on dbus though08:31
ente(see what I mean?)08:31
ente(all bloatware depends on dbus)08:31
Romsteri do agree i don't understand why dbus has freedesktop paths in it.08:31
entechris2 and dalias (the musl guys) think it works without dbus08:31
Romsterhaving a small daemon for notifications in the system tray is a nice idea but i guess dbus is bloated too much.08:32
laenLemme check.08:32
entethe only alternative to wpa_supplicant is using windows or openbsd :P08:32
laenwpa_supplicant-0.7.3 builds fine here without dbus08:33
enteand openbsd ifconfig only does PSK, for the fancier authentication schemes for wpa, it won't work either and you'll probably need wpa_supplicant08:33
entenice08:33
enteI think I removed dbus08:33
enteit's interesting to see how broken dependencies on arch are08:34
laen0.7.3 is the last stable of it08:34
ente(as a binary distro)08:34
laenOh dear, Arch.08:34
laenYou're german right?08:34
enteconsider this: http://paste.xinu.at/vZk7/08:34
enteyep08:34
laenYou know there's a mix of Crunchbang and Arch Linux nowadays, called ArchBang? :P08:34
enteemacs indirectly depends on gconf. wtf...08:34
entenope, didn't know that08:35
entethere's frugalware, but they are switching to systemd with the next release08:35
laenArsch bang ;p08:35
entelaen: http://arschlinux.de/08:35
laenI bet the family would love to hear about the arch bang stories ;)08:35
laenomg :P08:35
entehm08:35
Romstergconf is another issue... when you want something that pulls in a ton of gnome deps and gconf... just to use said program without wanting all of gnome is not right.08:35
enteactually, you can compile emacs against Xaw or something08:36
enteso you don't need that gnome crap08:36
entebut who wants xaw these days? :P08:36
enteit would be easy though to replace libxaw with something with the same API that looks a bit nicer08:36
enteI heard xaw is pretty sane for a GUI toolkit08:37
laenI heard CLI is the new hot.08:37
Romsteri like the idea of console apps with a GUI frontend for those that want that.08:38
enteI think everybody likes that :)08:41
enteon the other hand, tty sucks hard08:41
enteand ncurses sucks hard as well08:41
Romsteri never did like ncurses much bar for a few things.08:43
Romsterbmon being one.08:44
entencurses is horribly deprecated08:50
enteRomster: what do you mean? you don't like ncurses or you don't like TUI?08:50
enteI like irssi's UI, for instance, which is ncurses based08:50
entencurses does some stuff that's simply not required anymore08:51
entea lot of obsolete terminals08:51
enteI mean... who's going to use a tektronix 4014 these days?08:51
jaegeroooh, ooh.... not me08:52
Romsternot sure what TUI means. turning you in i doubt it.08:53
laenomg omg omg ente, there's also einit, uses xml!!08:54
Romsterncurses itself is ok but some of the programs that uses ncurses is not too shabby. while others are jsut too hard to manage in ncurses.08:54
entelaen: let me guess, e is extensible? ;)08:55
enteRomster: text user interface as opposed to graphical user interface08:55
laenente: i guess so :P08:56
entesomething that's modeled after a GUI but with text08:56
entelike aptitude when you start it without arguments08:56
enteor elinks or something like that08:56
entewith drop-down menus and all the other GUI features08:56
frinnstaptitude is the worst piece of shit-program i have ever used08:56
entebut but but it solves sudoku :P08:57
Romsterheh08:57
frinnstsorry, i just had to get that off my chest08:57
enteomg08:57
entesudoku starts with sudo08:57
enteI just realised that now :P08:57
enteI'm not convinced whether I hate aptitude or apt-get more08:57
enteactually, I hate every part of debian's package manager08:57
entebut some people know their way around and call me ignorant...08:58
enteit's just... it's so horribly complex08:58
enterpm looked a little bit better with it's specfiles etc08:58
jaegerhaving spent a fair amount of time with both I like RPM slightly better as a packager08:58
frinnstit took me ages to realize i had to use apt-cache to search for the right package-name08:58
jaegerthey're both more complicated than I like, though08:58
enteyes, same here08:59
entefrinnst: either apt-cache or aptitude search08:59
enteaptitude search supports fancy patterns08:59
entepatterns and arguments08:59
enteso aptitude install ~dfoo- uninstalls everything that contains foo in the description :P09:00
ente~d is "match description" and - is uninstall09:00
entewhich might be useful when replacing something that would otherwise be broken because it depends on something else09:00
Romsteri'm concerned if xorg has a future because wayland may gain popularity.09:01
entefor instance if something wants you to have a /usr/sbin/sendmail and depends on mail-transfer-agent or whatever the metapackage is called, and you don't like exim and want to replace it by postfix without removing anything that might depend on mail-transfer-agent you go aptitude install postfix ~nexim-09:02
entewhich is actually not required in this case because postfix also conflicts with exim anyway and aptitude will ask you if it should remove it09:02
entewell, whatever09:02
entethis is way too weird for my taste09:02
Romsterhrmm interesting.09:02
enteit also works the other way around09:03
enteaptitude remove foo+ installs foo09:03
RomsterO_O09:03
ente:)09:03
enteRomster: that's the downside of wayland being the shiny new thing09:03
entethe upside is that freedesktop will stop fucking with X09:03
Romsterso what happens when you got "gtk+"09:04
enteI think the package is called gtk+209:04
enteor something like that09:04
enteit only looks at the last character for these things09:04
entethere's also M as a modifier which does something else09:05
entehttp://paste.xinu.at/76R/09:05
Romsterhow are uses meant to understand that. let alone the more experienced.09:05
entehttp://algebraicthunk.net/~dburrows/blog/entry/package-management-sudoku/09:07
enteRomster: I have no idea :)09:07
enteat least aptitude is very good at resolving dependencies09:07
entethe problem is that packager often are not very good at determining dependencies when they build their package09:08
ente(that's another reason for debian's huge QA section)09:08
enteI think debian's dependency system is too precise09:09
Romsters/uses/users09:09
enteit has Recommends, Depends, Suggests, Conflicts, Replaces, ...09:09
Romsteryeah i have looked over that and thought packager nightmare.09:10
enteI mean, great, but I as a packager am confused alone from the different types of dependencies a package can have09:10
entepackaging for debian is a nightmare, yes09:10
enteeven worse is putting these packages in a repo09:10
entewhich is a nice portion of good old black magic09:11
entethere are at least 10 tools you can use, and each one is broken in it's own way09:11
enteapt-ftparchive, reprepro, ...09:12
entewell, anyway, some people managed to figure out what this all means09:12
ente;)09:12
enteI'd go with slackware as a binary distro, hosting a personal repo with all the packages the chair needs, eventually bumping packages on security updates etc09:13
enteand freebsd for servers09:14
Romsterdebian looks to be a nightmare for anyone but end users.09:14
enteyep, I believe so09:14
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enteeven some end users are confused09:14
Romsterthough gentoo ebuilds coudl be nearly as bad.09:14
enteubuntu is even worse in that aspect09:14
entenever used gentoo, but the useflags scare me09:15
enteit sounds like it breaks if you give it a mean look :P09:15
Romsteri haven't sued it but i've often trolled over the ebuilds09:15
Romsterused*09:15
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Romsteri've been told by those that have used gentoo it breaks every other update.09:16
Romsteri took one look at openssd's srcpkg stuff but went that's crazy.09:17
Romsteropenbsd*09:17
Romsterdamn it pkgsrc not srcpkg...09:17
Romstermakefiles including this then that.09:17
laenente: naw, it rarely breaks.. that's the crazy thing about gentoo: way too much work for the maintainers (as everything has to work together), and crazy work for end users (use flag walhalla).09:17
laenBut yeah, i'm kinda done with it too. Still wanna use Crux in a VM for a while before using it as main distro.09:18
Romsterthough there is different overlays for different profiles like server games desktop etc.09:18
entelaen: honestly, having the package manager written in python sounds breaky as hell...09:18
enteRomster: pkgsrc is from NetBSD actually09:19
Romsteri dunno python is fairly robust.09:19
laenWhich happened to me a few days ago indeed. And first thing i said was *Pffff, goddamnit, fuck.*.09:19
Romsterdang..09:19
enteOpenBSD have OpenBSD-ports, FreeBSD have FreeBSD-ports and NetBSD, DragonflyBSD have pkgsrc as native package manager09:19
laenBut it turned out, that the correct python profile (2.7 or 3.1) wasn't selected.. that was all there was to it to fix it.09:19
laenLike.. eselect python set 109:19
entepkgsrc is portable as hell though and works on virtually any *NIX09:20
enteeven linux (some slackware users use it) and I heard something about a windows port09:20
enteactually, I started packaging xrdp for pkgsrc09:20
enteRomster: python is dynamically linked09:21
Romsterwell i looked over pkgsrc andii got lost fairly quickly trying ot decypher how it builds a package. not running it but just reading around in it's source.09:21
enteif a dependency breaks, python breaks, your package manager breaks and then good luck09:21
Romsterwell python can break if you bump the version i guess09:22
enteI had that on arch (pacman dynamically linked against openssl, openssl version bump -> pacman breaks)09:22
Romsterand the other modules aren't rebuilt for the newer version of python.09:22
enteyeah09:22
entethe makefiles thing on pkgsrc is actually pretty crazy but nice09:23
Romsteri was meaning before that python is robust itself, expect i didn't think about version bumps.09:23
entebecause 1. you can actually read all those makefiles, they are present on the system09:23
ente2. they prevent code duplication by putting commonly used rules there09:23
Romsteri think the includes confused me as they got stuff from everywhere.09:23
enteactually, most pkgsrc ports just include bsd.prog.mk09:24
Romsterbut i see why as you said in point 2.09:24
Romsteri was looking over the gnome stuff that included tons of stuff.09:24
Romsterthinking that might give some clues how to get ti to work.09:24
enteI blame the GNOME people for having a screwed-up build system ;)09:25
Romsterthis is ages ago.09:25
laenRemember when you were young!09:30
Romsteryeah when the commodore 64 was new.09:32
jaegerGNOME is still a pain in the ass to build, some things don't change :)09:32
RomsterBBS's and the Internet never existed yet.09:33
laenhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0SqFPNTBnv8 as well.09:33
Romsteryeah i was looking over pkgsrc to see if they had any gems on how to get gnome to build but i gave up quickly after seeing it.09:33
joacimthought bbs' predated the c6409:38
joacima product of the early computer clubs or something09:38
Romsteri think it did but the C64 had a modem you could get onto a BBS with too.09:39
Romsterdunno if the XT or AT could do that.09:40
enteprobably09:47
enteIBM PC, PC XT and PC AT had expansion slots09:48
ThePubmight be worth seeing what arch did to get gnome working.  gnome3 compiled out-of-the-box for me using their testing archive.09:48
enteI think I read ISA came with XT09:48
enteeither with XT or AT09:48
enteand there were definitely ISA modems and RS-232-modems09:48
ThePubmy Epson Equity 1+ 11Mhz 8088 XT had 4 8bit ISA slots and 1 memory expansion slot.09:49
entePCs were just far more expensive than a C6409:49
ThePubbut I used an external serial, hayes 1200bps modem.09:49
entethis was all before my time :)09:49
ThePubyes, my PC cost me $5,899 new -- but it had CGA graphics (84) :)09:49
enteunfortunately :(09:49
entemy dad had a VIC-2009:49
enteand an atari st afterwards09:50
ThePub(and a 20Mb hard drive, which was actually like.. huge amounts of storage)09:50
entemy mom wrote her doctor thesis on that st :)09:51
enteI think my dad bought the harddisk after she was finished09:51
enteat least in the beginning she still had to change floppies all the time09:51
entemust have sucked ;)_09:52
ThePubimagine using a mac :)09:52
ThePubnow.. my amiga ruled the world.  very little floppy flipping09:52
entethe first computer I used ran win 9509:54
ThePubthat's really too bad.  older computers really showed a lots of imagination.09:54
entethe first computer I owned ran win 98, iirc some 486 my dad didn't need anymore09:54
entebut I was 8 or so, and didn't check the technical data :P09:55
entemy next box was a used p3 (and I still have it)09:55
ThePubI used my XT until 1998 when I bought an A2000, then shortly after that a quick succession of PCs since things changed so quickly.09:56
ThePubbuilt my "last" computer in 2001 for a little over $3000, and it lasted until a couple years ago and just up and died.  so I bought a cheap emachines and installed linux.09:57
ThePubgoing between arch and crux is  alittle confusing sometimes.  "makepkg" vs "pkgmk"10:01
entejust alias whatever you use to mkpkg :P10:10
enteor use pkg++ which can build both iirc10:11
entehttps://gitorious.org/pkgxx#more10:12
entedidn't try it thogh10:12
enteI know the guy who wrote it10:13
ThePubrelying on a layer of a layer just for convenience in that case isn't something I like to do.  it's just something humerous is all.10:14
ThePubalthough the two systems are fairly similar.  it'd be nice to have them merged in some way :)10:15
ThePubwhee!  nouveau finally compiled and working.10:17
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jseIt would be pointless to call those distributions separate if they were identical.11:55
jseYou just have to get used to them (or code your own wrapper script to unify everything). :D11:55
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ThePubjse: imo it's unimportant as it's only a minor inconvenience.  although calling a carrot and a carrot a "horse" and a "dog" simply to do so is a little rash. from my simplistic perspective, they both utilize a "build" method, which is really where I was coming from.  Although, arch has changed the file syntax just enough in my short time using it to make the whole idea a little silly now.12:00
jseWas under the impression arch, while similar, is not directly based on crux or its pkgutils.12:04
jseNot that there's anything wrong with similarity.12:04
tilmanmerely "inspired by" or something12:05
jseThere's plenty of ways to reach the same destination.12:05
jsetilman: I suppose.12:05
jseSeen two or three reviews over the years that claimed arch was derived from crux.12:06
ThePubwhich was kind of my way of thinking.  the configuration can be exactly the same with different backends -- it wouldn't matter :)12:06
treachjse: you can find reviews claiming anything, suse being a red hat derivative is another one of those. :p12:07
jseIndeed.12:08
jseIt's so much fun proclaiming facts without bothering to check them through.12:11
laenWow, a system that doesn't even have /sys12:14
laenNo dmidecode.. sigh.12:14
thrice`what doesn't have /sys ?12:15
treachWindows.12:15
* treach hids12:15
laenA production system at the company i work.12:15
laenAnd no, it's Red Hat 9 Desktop.12:16
laenUsed as a server.12:16
laenThat's pre-RHEL3.12:16
thrice`ah12:16
treachit's even pre 2.6, iirc.12:19
laenCorrect, 2.4.20 kernel.12:20
tilmanblast from the past12:20
laenWonder where i can find what hardware it's installed on..12:20
tilmandmesg12:21
tilmanlspci12:21
laenyeah lspci didn't give too much, dmesg was limited, checking logfiles.12:21
ente[17:15] < ThePub> although the two systems are fairly similar.  it'd be nice to have them merged in some way :)12:22
enteyes12:22
enteabsolutely :P12:22
entearch's unstability and crux' release scheme12:23
ente-> nonstability despite non-rolling-release :>12:23
laenI'm gonna make this easy.. just query the CMDB ;p12:23
enteadd openbsd's speed12:23
tilmanopenbsd's what?12:23
enteand maybe debian's bleeding-edgeness :>12:23
entethe *kit and systemd from fedora12:24
entepaint it green for suse and brown for ubuntu, and then it's the ultimate linux distro12:24
entetilman: exactly ;)12:24
enteunifying all distributions = merging all drawbacks12:25
laenAha, Canterbury Linux?12:25
enteyep. like that, just better12:25
treachsounds more like "Can'tTheyBuryLinux"12:25
laenlol12:25
ente:D12:26
tilmanhaha treach12:26
treach:>12:26
entetreach: that one would be featuring a coreutils rewrite in java ;)12:26
tilmanspeaking of which12:26
* treach shudders12:26
tilmansolaris 9 ... running on ooooooold ultrasparc (slow!) hardware .... uses a sysadmin gui tool written in java12:27
tilmanslow as all crap software running on slower as crap hardware12:27
tilmanbest idea ever12:27
treachyeah. sun really loooooved shoving that java shite in. :/12:27
entewell, our ultrasparc 1 dhcp-server (built '94 or so) is running freebsd 6.212:27
entenobody ever bothered updating :P12:28
enteI'm not sure if I should, because I've seen what the guy who installed freebsd 6.2 everywhere did to the disklabels on one box :P12:28
treachI had the misfortune to use solaris 8 once upon a time, on ...modest.. hardware. And *that* was certainly no speed deamon..12:28
tilman:D12:28
enteactually, I don't know what he did, but he clearly didn't read the manpage12:28
entetoor was locked and root's login shell was /usr/local/bin/bash12:29
enteand so on :)12:29
laenIf it works, why fix it.12:31
treachwhy don't you send that question to the Salvation Army over at RH?12:31
tilmanmuha12:32
laenI did, once. And they said "No we won't fix it".12:32
entelaen: because 6.2 is heavily outdated and might have security flaws12:32
laenSo, i fixed it, and send them the patch with the comment "I fixed it!".12:32
entebut well, since it only does dhcp, I don't bother12:32
enteI do bother about that debian sarge mailserver though :P12:32
laenNext thing, all our support calls were erased. And that was paid support.12:33
enteit's also nice to see that the raid controller software for 3ware controllers is written in java12:34
ente[root@andrei ~]# file /usr/local/sbin/tw_cli12:36
ente/usr/local/sbin/tw_cli: ELF 64-bit LSB executable, x86-64, version 1 (FreeBSD), for FreeBSD 5.4, statically linked, FreeBSD-style, stripped12:36
entewell, at least there's still that one12:36
ente(the netbsd people use the same binary for their 3ware controllers... with FreeBSD emulation :P)12:36
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pedjatilman: you might want to close FS #705 now :)13:12
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pedja706 and 707 are same 'bugs' (broken link for libgd).13:17
pedjawhy oh why is so hard to say something as simple as 'your d/l link is b0rken'?13:17
pedjaDoes anyone know whatever happened to Enlightenment ports that used to be in portdb?Or did I dream that?13:31
enteI think you didn't dream that13:31
enteunless I dreamt it too13:31
pedjaphew, good :)13:32
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entehttp://replay.waybackmachine.org/20090130081843/http://crux.nu/portdb/13:32
entee17 78 rsync pitillo at ono dot com lokalix.dyndns.org::ports/e17/13:33
entepitillo: *poke*13:33
pedjayup, that was it.13:34
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pedjaxfce and its reliance(sp?) on half of Gnome libraries  and hal spawned bastard children for things that worked just fine in 2.6...annoys me...13:39
entepatch it out?13:40
entebut yes, it's annoying to say that at least13:40
pedjaente: if there is a fallback for mounting removable drives that uses hal instead of latest fad of the moment (uwhatever, console kilt etc.),I am just too stupid to find it.13:44
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pedjaI know, I know, I can do it manually, but why should I ?Put the usb stick in, icon shows, click on it, mount, use it, click again to umount (without losing any pending data in the process).Simple.13:46
entehaha haha console kilt :D14:15
enteand the logo is tux with a kilt :D14:15
entepedja: yeah14:16
entethat isn't entirely clean14:16
enteactually, in the beginning HAL was just responsible for allowing users to shutdown14:16
entethey crammed more functionality into it and it ended up as what it was14:16
enteI think it's far easier to whitelist /sbin/mount for a certain user in sudoers14:17
enteicon shows up, click on it, xfce invokes sudo /sbin/mount /dev/sr0 /mnt/cdrom and changes the icon14:17
pedjathat is another way to do it.14:26
pedjaI understand why xfce devs rely on gnome for heavylifting stuff, there are a few of them, and workload is big.But, the whole point of lightweight DE is not being forced to add extra crap for fully functioning system.It gets messy really quick.14:33
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* treach laments that there usually is little point living with a wm, unless you plan to get married to vim. :/14:38
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enteliving with a wm? marrying vim? wtf14:56
entein my world, I live with my girlfriend and marry my wife :p14:56
estersemacs is the solution14:57
enteemacs is the true GNU operating system14:59
esterssince vivivi is the mark of the beast15:02
entekernel /hurd init=/emacs15:03
laenente: seriously, that sounds awesome. But who is your wife living with?15:09
enteshe's divorced, of course15:12
ente:P15:12
laenAh! Okay :)15:12
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ThePubprobably my own short-sightedness, but I fail to see the advantages of large complex packaging arrangments compared to the relative simplicity in CRUX.18:58
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