IRC Logs for #crux Tuesday, 2011-11-01

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Romster go figure and i moved all the sources i use off the site.01:00
RomsterSince announcing that Fraunhofer FOKUS is forced to discontinue to operate BerliOS we have received numerous rescue proposals. Today, we are pleased to announce that the BerliOS platform can continue to exist. Still in November 2011 a non-profit association will be founded, whose aim is the operation and further development of the BerliOS platform.01:01
aonseems like all sorts of interesting stuff have been released in 2 years or whatever01:16
Romsteryeah lots of progress01:19
Romstersome of which has caused some controversy01:20
Romsterand some changes still in progress like glibc01:21
aonwhat's happening there?01:25
aonanyway, gotta take the woman to work, cu ->01:32
veelol i had a discussion with some dude who claimed to be a "professional computer technician" who claimed windows was superior to linux in terms of security01:33
veei'm no linux god, but, even i know thats a load of bullshit01:34
Romsterwindows more secure than linux must laugh at that.01:38
Romsteropen source = more eyes = far fewer security holes.01:38
Romstersee how the heck he can make a comeback line out of that.01:39
veei asked him01:42
veehow the entire community looking out for something vs a few people microsoft hired is the same01:42
veehis responce: we have antiviruses.01:42
* Romster dies a little inside01:43
Romsterhow the heck does that stop a buffer overrun vulnerability.01:43
Romsterwhat a boob01:43
veeno clue. but it has an antivirus, so, its legit.01:44
veewhen i saw what antivirus he installed, i crindged01:44
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Romsterbet it was microsoft security essentials :D01:52
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Romsterbet it was microsoft security essentials :D01:52
veethe old old old old OLD norton01:53
veelike norton 2000 or something lol01:53
veequick question. when i boot up my computer and when its time for slim to come up, one of two things happen: either the screen has a random image of mixed colors jumped all across the screen, or, the screen is black for a while. the black could be written off as its still loading, but the random colors have been happening more often lately.01:55
Romsterno idea sorry don't run slim01:56
veebooger. well good night. have a good oneeee :D01:56
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frinnstvee has to get new friends :)02:09
aonwhat's wrong with mse tho?02:10
Romsternothing just an obvious choice02:16
aonour current work computer has an athlon xp 1800+ and 512MB of ram or something, someone's installed office 2007 and f-secure on it...02:20
aonnothing can be done02:20
Romsteronly 512meg must be super slow02:22
Romstermoving the page file to another spindle disk could help a little though02:23
Romsterand run ultradefrag and defrag the important registry page/hibernate files.02:24
Romsterccleaner to remove crap02:24
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Romsterwart___, did you look at gcj yet?05:47
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rmullRomster: I want to get started using your safe-build system to test my ports. All I need to do is grab it from your repo, right? It has some documentation included?06:39
Romsteryes though i did set it up with curx 2.5 ages ago so it may not just work with the mroe recent iso to start it. and didn't get the use system packages to work.06:42
Romsteri really need to tidy it up.06:43
Romsteronce it's setup it's fine though06:43
Romsterthough you should be able to get it to work with pkgadd -r option to install the core ports to ~/.safe-build/06:45
rmullRomster: Okay, I may have more questions once I start poking at it. Tahnks06:46
Romsteri've started to clean up my personal repo and later i'll redo it in my chroot too also i'm going tough more rewriting of version sort to handle directory versions, and then i'll get to look at safe-build and clean that up too.06:47
rmullAhh- I may have been mixed up. I thought that when you say "my chroot" you are referring to safe-build. Is that not what it is?06:50
Romsteryes same thing.06:52
Romstersafe-build is a wrapper for the chroot for setting it up and the cleaning up with safe-build clean06:53
Romsterthough safe-build clean works in the chroot itself to remove packages pkgrm other than some in safe-build.conf and core packages are left installed.06:53
Romsterso you can do a prt-get depinst foo and test for missing dependencies.06:54
Romsteradd them then check with findredudentdeps -s06:54
Romsterand with SBPREFIX= you cna have more than 1 safe-build chroot.06:54
Romsterit's pretty much automated way of doing this manually
Romstersorry that safe-build is a bit rough around the edges of setting it up. wrote it quite along time ago.06:57
* Rotwang is doing tests on a vm07:04
Rotwangdid anyone write his own lexer?07:07
RotwangI need to write one and I'm looking for some good practices07:07
Romsteri tried but i didn't get anywhere too difficult for me.07:13
Romsterbut if you findsome good practices, pass  them my way too :)07:14
RotwangI have some books about compiler design, but their description is hard to really understand and put into practice07:17
RotwangRomster: although it doesn't seem very hard07:17
Rotwangyou just need to return tokens and their categories from an input stream07:18
Romsterprobably not but what i was doing probably was.07:20
Romsterit was a while ago since i tried.07:20
Romsterthis version sort i'm doing could do with a lexer07:21
wart___Romster: sorry, we're on the wrong sleep schedule :-)07:30
wart___Romster: yeah, but pdftk dies again, this time with yet another new error.07:30
Romstergo figure07:30
wart___Romster: i actually can't touch compouters today so i'll have to report bacck in07:30
wart___at this point however i think its a matter of fussing with pdftk's Makefile, although i'm not sure07:31
Romsteroh you were on chatting earlier than this last time so perhaps your sleeping pattern keeps shifting.07:31
Romsteri'm pretty sure i got gcj right this time.07:31
* Rotwang heard the keyword "Makefile"07:33
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veesup peeps14:44
* jaeger is playing with FreeBSD and ZFS today14:46
entegood decision!14:46
enteI find it pretty awesome14:47
jaegerente: I'm testing it as a temporary solution because our Sun (oracle) Storage 7410 is a huge pain in the ass14:47
veeout of curiosity, why would one go with freebsd vs linux?14:47
jaegerlinux zfs support isn't as robust from what I've read, and requires fuse14:48
jaegershort version: ZFS is the reason14:48
ente(big surprise it's not so robust :P)14:48
enteFreeBSD has pf, zfs and jails14:48
* thrice` didn't know *bsd was still alive :o14:48
enteit has been dead since forever, of course14:49
teK_it's been dead for about 15 years or so :>14:49
enteteK_: 15 years? I believe that lawsuit was earlier14:51
entefunny though, development on BSD seems alive to me14:51
teK_i'm 26. :P14:51
enteI'm 19, so what?14:51
teK_jaeger: I never got the idea behind all this fancy filesystem stuff. It's maybe because I never had to manager 38TB of storage14:52
enteZFS does snapshots and per-directory quota in a nice way14:52
jaegerthat's only half of it, even... I just wanted to start with a smaller test14:52
entei.e. you can zfs create pool/jails/foo -o quota=20G (or something like this) and install a jail in there14:53
jaegerI've got 4 non-production J4400 expanders, each can hold 24 drives14:53
jaeger2 of them are hooked up to this test box right now14:53
jaeger46 1TB drives, 2 STEC ZeusIOPS SSDs14:53
enteand then zfs snapshot pool/jails/foo@`date +%Y-%m-%d`14:53
enteand then you end up with a snapshot in whereveryoumountedit/.zfs/14:54
jaegerThe Sun (Oracle) unified storage appliance is an opensolaris ZFS server with a fancy GUI and whatnot so ZFS isn't a big stretch for me14:54
entealso, the performance is supposed to be better, but I can't verify that on my crap-hardware14:54
teK_snapshots sound quit nice.14:54
jaegerthe FreeBSD part is new14:54
jaegersetting up multipathing in FreeBSD was interesting, too14:54
frinnstjaeger: awesome stuff14:55
jaegeralso, I love vmware :) I'm moving 2 live production server VMs to this ZFS test without taking them down14:55
enteinstalling FreeBSD can be a pain in the ass, especially if you're doing it on a RAID-1 or something fancy like that14:55
frinnstwe are looking at new sans at the moment for my project14:55
enteI usually install from a harddisk containing an existing installation14:55
ente(it's supposed to be better with FreeBSD 9's new installer)14:55
ente(which I didn't try, but sysinstall sucks ass)14:56
jaegeragreed, sysinstall blows14:56
teK_jaeger: how do I make the web-GUI (vmware-server 2.x) suck less?14:56
enteGEOM is pretty nice too14:56
jaegerteK_: no idea on that, I've never used vmware server14:56
teK_but esx(i)?14:56
jaegerI use vSphere 5 Enterprise14:56
teK_oh ok =)14:56
entealso, FreeBSD has a *nice* base system where documentation actually comes as manpages14:57
jaegerI wonder if they have similar GUIs, it feels like it's web-based14:57
teK_with vsphere the i in ESXi won't make a difference, I guess14:57
jaegerthey sped it up a ton between ESXi 4.1 and 5.014:57
entethere are manpages for drivers!14:57
enteI was completely baffled14:57
jaegerteK_: it did in 4.x, ESX is now gone14:57
jaegerthere is no ESX 514:57
enteno "info coreutils" to get all options of tar either14:57
teK_this stupid piece of tomcat crap is just awful14:57
entefiling bugs is very easy, they ship a script that sends a mail to the bugtracker (send-pr)14:58
teK_ente: _info_? lol?14:58
enteSEE ALSO14:58
ente       The full documentation for ls is maintained as a  Texinfo  manual.14:58
enteThere is no such thing on *BSD14:58
teK_not for me[tm]14:58
enteah, BSD also brought us mdoc(7), which makes writing manpages very comfortable. (If only people knew about it (yes, it's present on linux and has been around since ~1993), then it wouldn't be required to write manpages in markdown and convert them to extremely ugly manpages)14:59
enteso yes, there are some very nice things on BSD14:59
teK_ever since I read this email from stallman (you know.. about conditions to be met IF he gives a talk) I dislike info and the other GNU naziism even more. But I told you about 20 times before ;)15:00
entepf's config file is especially nice15:00
enteI hate tinkering with iptables (and also ipfw, to be fair)15:00
jaegerI don't mind iptables but pf is cool15:00
jaeger(no experience with ipfw)15:00
enteNetBSD rewrote pf (it's called npf) to make it SMP-aware (I think that was one of the problems with pf, as usual on OpenBSD)15:01
enteso neither NetBSD nor FreeBSD nor OpenBSD nor DragonflyBSD nor MirBSD is dead15:01
enteand any rumour about it is a lie15:02
teK_I love netbsd's: verixec, kernel securitylevels and systrace15:02
entealso, I like it's installer :-P15:02
entesysinst (NetBSD) is so much better than sysinstall (FreeBSD)15:02
teK_reminding me of the NT/2000  installer :>15:03
entealso, they merge a lot of CDDL stuff from solaris lately15:03
entesysinst has relatively painless support for PXE15:03
teK_oui? Nice..15:03
enteon FreeBSD (with sysinstall, not the new thingy) it's a matter of rebuilding the bootloader and whatnot15:03
enteand convincing sysinstall that your FTP mirror is valid, otherwise it drops you off before the partitioning step and you have to redo everything (which is why I think it's awful)15:04
entecommunity-wise, NetBSD has a great IRC-channel on Freenode (#NetBSD), with friendly and helpful people15:11
entemuch like this channel15:11
ente(sorry if I'm spamming)15:11
enteFreeBSD has active mailing lists but no official/functional channel, OpenBSD... I don't know, never used it.. same about DragonflyBSD, MirBSD has a nice channel too15:12
ente(I hang around there for mksh)15:12
ente(never used MirBSD)15:13
entein case there are people interested in BSD in here, read up :P15:13
jaegergot my sharenfs prop set, vmware is talking to the ZFS box, good stuff15:13
entecongrats :-)15:14
teK_some support firm wants 'us' to move one old server with a simple client-server application to esxi. They want *us* to install the esxi, move the system, connect it to the net again etc. and after that they want 3000,- to check if everything worked -> ???15:16
prologicthat's a bit overkill for 1 single server don't you think?15:17
prologicand if it's just linux, considered using something like ProxMox VE ?15:17
teK_they shipped the boxx about 6 years ago with redhat and now wanted us to move to windows due to missing know-how on THEIR side15:18
frinnstwell, sort of defeats the purpose of a lab enviroment then, dont you think prologic ?15:18
teK_esxi is overkill but we could put some other servers (NT 4 server, anyone?) there, too15:19
frinnstoh, sry.. o thought you commented on jaegers playground :)15:19
jaegermy vsphere setup is 9 hosts and around 100 VMs15:21
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Romsterjaeger, i thought ZFS is now native in linux?16:24
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frinnststill licese issues, right?16:30
frinnstthere might be a out of tree patch, guess thats possible16:30
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ente_GPL forbids that16:49
ente_ZFS is CDDL licensed16:49
ente_you could theoretically maybe load it as a kernel module16:49
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entebut not under GPLv3, afaik16:49
ente(iirc, module license problems is one reason why the kernel isn't GPLv3)16:50
ente(license is another reason to prefer BSD: it's uncomplicated. Whatever you want to use, you're free to do so)16:50
Rotwangit depends16:51
Rotwangsomeone may take your code without even saying thank you or kiss my ass and close it16:52
RomsterOS X ring a bell :P16:52
RotwangI've heard that windows also borrows heavily from *BSD in terms of networking stuff16:53
Rotwangor at least early versions of windows16:53
Romsterbbl work16:55
frinnsti dont know how the cddl licese works, but nothing in the gpl prevents you from applying a patch17:06
frinnstthe problem is when you start redistributing it17:07
cruxbot[contrib.git/2.7]: docutils: 0.8 -> 0.8.117:08
cruxbot[contrib.git/2.7]: fluxbox: 1.3.1 -> 1.3.217:08
cruxbot[contrib.git/2.7]: mercurial: 1.9.3 -> 2.017:08
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enteRotwang: yes, winsock was copied from BSD17:17
enteRotwang: but then again, we wouldn't have a unified API otherwise17:17
RotwangI guess not only winsock17:17
jaegerhrmm... I wonder if both of my STEC ZeusIOPS SSDs are bad or if FreeBSD is having some issue with them17:19
jaeger(da0:mpt0:0:0:0): WRITE(6). CDB: a 8 22 90 28 017:19
jaeger(da0:mpt0:0:0:0): CAM status: SCSI Status Error17:19
jaeger(da0:mpt0:0:0:0): SCSI status: Check Condition17:19
jaeger(da0:mpt0:0:0:0): SCSI sense: UNIT ATTENTION asc:29,0 (Power on, reset, or bus device reset occurred)17:19
enteit's not like people can't rip off your code otherwise17:19
jaegergetting that repeatedly17:19
enteand I've not met anybody who ever read the whole GPL17:20
entealso, "derivative work" seems not to be entirely clarified, and GPL is america-centered17:20
enteI'd prefer public domain for my work, if Germany allowed me to do that17:20
entein case they're ripping you off, well.. the original is still there, so it's not theft17:21
entesame thing as with music17:21
entewe can't go around pirating music and then praise the GPL17:22
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ente(I don't imply you do :P)17:22
Rotwangente: if someone takes your code and closes it it is not fair17:22
Rotwangnot contributing back17:23
enteit often happens that someone contributes back17:23
enteand it often enough happens that the code is under the GPL and is not given back17:23
entenot everybody can afford a lawsuit17:23
entemost developers of GPL'ed software won't17:24
Rotwangwhere does this conversation is leading us?17:24
Rotwangbecause I lost the point somewhere ;}17:24
enteand in case our society will switch to a more modern model than we have now (which will hopefully happen - and yes, I think this is a social thing), the GPL will only be in our way17:24
entethere can't be intellectual property17:25
entethis is all bullshit :-)17:27
frinnstente: i have17:27
frinnstits not really long, and more informative than your random EULA17:27
frinnstno, 217:28
enteThere are books explaining the lawyer-jargon of GPLv3 to programmers17:28
frinnstthats what we were talking about re. zfs and linux?17:28
enteah yes17:29
entethat's where we were at some point17:29
entebut I can't resist an opportunity to rant :-)17:29
enteI hope it makes other people think about it17:29
Rotwangnot me17:30
enteI'm not trying to convince you to relicense your code under whatever license17:30
frinnstnor I, im sick of the *bsd license more free* bullshit17:30
entelicenses are bullshit, that's their nature17:30
entethanks, now you got "The Free Software Song" stuck in my head :P17:31
ente"Join us now and share the soooftware!"17:31
enteif linux was BSD licensed, ZFS would already be in there17:34
entethat's all.17:34
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veeanyone here play cod?17:51
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jaegervee: not since the first one :)18:12
veeaww :/18:12
veei recently started again, and oh my god, the anger it produces lol18:12
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Romsterif Linux was BSD licenced everyone would rip the code off and close source it. it would be the death of Linux.20:30
cruxbot[contrib.git/2.7]: xtables-geoip: 20110805 -> 2011100720:45
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NecrosporusRomster, not fact. BSD is not dead still22:46
NecrosporusOpenBSD was released yesterday22:47
NecrosporusZFS is not worth really22:47
NecrosporusIf it was as good, Oracle or Sun was relicensed it under GPL compatible license22:48
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