IRC Logs for #crux Monday, 2012-01-16

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pitillomorning01:08
niklaswefrinnst: why did they say in the beginning of the move then "it based on a true story.."01:21
niklaswemorrn01:21
jueacrux: thanks, definitely not02:06
cruxbot[opt.git/2.7]: cups: don't install resource file02:08
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frinnsthttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Feather_Men02:19
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cruxbot[opt.git/2.7]: cups: don't install resource file (improved)03:43
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frinnstright, so dont run kvm + vbox at the same time03:50
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jessica_lilyHey folks06:20
teK_hello06:21
jessica_lilyHow are you? :)06:21
teK_fine, thanks.06:23
jessica_lily:) ... Just thought I'd drop by really, check out the crux community06:23
teK_what fabulous idea!06:23
jessica_lily:)06:23
jessica_lilyWell, I wanted to try crux a while back I think i even had a poke around but never got round to doing it... Recently i installed windows xp for university software which wine wouldn't work with but its driving me insane so I'm switching back, I thought what a better time to consider crux again.06:24
teK_yeah, do that06:26
jessica_lilyI do actually own a mac, I'm wondering about how it will deal with the SMC stuff, since a lot of stuff is handled by bootcamp or the os x oporating system.06:28
teK_I never owned a Mac06:30
jessica_lilymm, well I doubt i'll be buying another, mainly due to money06:30
teK_I don't see much value in apple products06:32
jessica_lilyWell, it has some nice things but like I said, I think in future I'll just buy PC's06:33
jessica_lilyteK_ know anyone who's run crux on their mac?06:33
teK_nope, just wait for someone to read this or post to the ML. I don't even know what SMC is06:35
jessica_lilyo unlike PC's macs fans and CPU voltages and such are handled by the OS (by the SMC chip) ... os x obviously has this built into the kernel and such and on windows it is handled by bootcamp... ubuntu has an extra repo which has some modified things which help it run better on macs I'm wondering if i can pull apart the deb and see if i can grab the stuff doing it06:37
teK_prolly06:38
jessica_lilyhttps://wiki.ubuntu.com/MactelSupportTeam/PPA <-- information is there06:39
jessica_lilyI'll have a look06:39
teK_yeah mostly kernel modules as expected06:42
jessica_lilyYep06:43
jessica_lilyI can't see anything inherently tied into ubuntu, they have pretty much a vanilla linux so I'm pretty sure I could put them in crux06:43
teK_sure06:44
frinnstdidnt jaeger run crux on an intel mac?06:45
frinnstim sure someone did06:45
frinnstasdf, fucking headache06:50
frinnsthttp://i.imgur.com/csRBT.jpg06:50
Romsterthere is crux ppc for the G5 or so06:50
Romsternot official though06:50
Romsterif you want wine you can either go with offical x86 or the not official multilib crux.06:51
Romsteras pure 64bit crux (that also exists) can't run wine 32bit apps.06:51
frinnstvm's ftw06:51
frinnst:p06:51
jessica_lilyI might speak to the wine devs about getting the problem resolved...06:52
frinnsthttp://imgur.com/GbO8506:52
jessica_lilyI doubt they'll be too willing to invest much time in it though06:52
Romsterthey are working on it but thefact remains wine can run in 64bit but it will /not/ support 32bit PE06:52
Romsteronly 64bit PE06:52
Romsterso unless your stuff is all 64bit you will have to settle with another option.06:53
Romsterif you really need wine.06:53
Romsterwine devs are very busy i do watch them from time to time.06:54
jessica_lilyWell... its computational chemistry software so... it takes a fair amount of CPU and this mac isn't the most powerful machine in the world...06:54
frinnsta vm isnt an alternative?06:54
Romstera VM is if you don't care about wine and want to use real windows.06:54
frinnstwine is too buggy for what i need (vmware infra. client etc)06:55
jessica_lilywell.. it depends really... some calculates and quick and vm will do fine but its when I do the ab initio (quantum mechanics) calculations it can take a while especially if I have a lot of molecules or large molcules to run calculations on06:55
Romsterwine is a moving beta target they are adding more to it all the time. one day it'll be prefect06:56
jessica_lilyBut I suppose I could always do most of the work constructing them, save them and then run the time consuming ones on the university machines...06:56
Romsterjessica_lily, you might be better off with a i7 with windows on it for that stuff, though crux is good for many other things.06:56
teK_frinnst: do you use vmware products on a "commercial" and regular basis?06:57
jessica_lilywell.. the machines at uni have i think i5's not i7's but there still pretty good... I can just run crux on my laptop and go into uni for that i suppose06:57
frinnstteK_: we use vmware, yes. though im not responsible for the commercial machines06:58
frinnsti just use it for my lab06:58
frinnstand my setup is slooooooooooooooow :)06:58
teK_do you know a cheap (i.e. at no charge?) way to clone physical machines into vmdk & Co on an automated and regular basis?07:00
teK_I do know the vmware converter software but it won't run automated until I provide a XML file which I don't know how to generate07:00
frinnstnah, we pretty much only deal with virtual machines07:01
teK_ok thanks anyway07:01
jessica_lilywhat does the xml file contain?07:02
teK_I have no idea, the converter binary can be run in CLI mode + be given a XML file (according to --help or so)07:03
frinnst"hardware" info: chipsets, nics etc07:03
jessica_lilyhmm, just wondering if you can script the generation07:03
teK_I bet vmware wants me to purchase vsphere .. but I don't want to buy that07:03
frinnstand links to disks (vmdk)07:03
jessica_lilywell obviously its possible but i mean easily... I'd most likely have to check one out maybe I could knock up a python script07:04
teK_yeah.. the alternate way would be to use a tool that moves the mouse + does clicks to generate the image each night ..07:04
frinnstteK_: you can created .ovf files with virtualbox if you just wanna get a template07:04
jessica_lilyteK_ wow that sounds a terrible way :P07:04
teK_I want to convert a physical machine to a virtual one, how could vbox be helpful in any way?07:04
frinnstnah, it cant :)07:04
teK_I know, but I see no other way to do it for free07:04
jessica_lilyhmm07:05
jessica_lilydo you have an xml to work off?07:06
teK_nope07:06
jessica_lilydang07:06
teK_that's my problem07:06
jessica_lilyhaha o i see, yes thats quite a problem..07:06
frinnsthttp://www.vmware.com/products/converter/get.html07:06
frinnstclaims its "free"07:06
frinnstseems like it07:07
teK_it is07:08
jessica_lilyhmm I don't have two machiens I wonder how the easiest way to check out the docs and install crux is07:08
teK_I'm using that but it cannot be automated as far as I can see07:08
frinnstah. ok07:08
teK_jessica_lily: a VM07:08
frinnstim a bit thick today.. fucking mondays07:08
teK_;)07:08
jessica_lilyinstall in a vm? :S07:08
teK_it works like a charm but only manually07:08
teK_sure.07:08
jessica_lilyhow would that help07:09
teK_you want to test-drive crux dont you?07:09
frinnstjessica_lily: the handbook/manual is included on the cd07:09
jessica_lilyno :P07:09
teK_oh07:09
teK_;)07:09
jessica_lilyi do see that being unclear though07:09
jessica_lilyfrinnst o cool :)07:09
jessica_lilymaybe it would be easier installing it from a live CD of something, like i use to with gentoo07:10
jessica_lilyjust partition, mount, chroot07:10
frinnstand its really not that hard - a few steps only: boot, partition/create fs and mount to /mnt, run setup, chroot to install, edit fstab lilo etc, build & install kernel07:10
jessica_lilyooo does it have a setup?07:11
frinnstyes for package selection and install07:11
jessica_lilyoo interesting07:12
jessica_lilyrightyyy i think its time to grab the crux iso and makes some pasta while its downloading/burning07:17
teK_pasta.. mmmmhm07:22
jessica_lily:)07:23
jessica_lilyi don't have pasta source so i'll have to make me own >.< i really ought to go shopping07:23
frinnstjust run make on the source07:24
frinnst:)07:24
jessica_lilyhaha :P07:24
jessica_lilyif windows pesters me to restart again im going to loose it07:24
Romsterhttp://www.linuxgenuineadvantage.org/07:27
frinnst= redhat network07:28
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jessica_lilySo this channel pretty active?07:33
teK_kinda07:33
frinnstits "lagom" active (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lagom)07:34
teK_it's awesome07:37
Romsteron and off at different hours of the day07:38
Romster"lagom" new word to me.07:38
jessica_lilyto me too07:38
frinnsti'd think it would be, unless you're swedish :)07:39
jessica_lily:P07:39
jessica_lilyim british07:39
Romsteri'm aussie nice to meet you07:40
jessica_lilyhehe, nice to meet you too :)07:40
Romsterwe are a small community of linux geeks.07:41
jessica_lily:) I should fit right in then xD07:41
Romsterawesome07:41
jaegerMorning, all07:42
Romstermorning jaeger07:42
jessica_lilymorning jaeger07:42
teK_hello jaeger07:42
jessica_lilyright time to go find a CD07:43
jessica_lily:P07:43
jessica_lilyGot one07:44
Romstergot 50 :D07:44
Romster100 packs are a bit too hard to manage without them going everywhere.07:45
jessica_lilyI'm a cheap student so :P07:45
jaegerjessica_lily: just reading the buffer a bit, I've installed CRUX on 2 different macbook pros in the past. One of them was the first Santa Rosa model and the current one is a 6,2, I think07:45
jaegerHad to use some extra software like pommed but everything worked well07:45
jessica_lilyAh okay, good to know :)07:46
jessica_lilymines a macbook 6,107:46
jaegerI don't own the Santa Rosa anymore and don't have CRUX on this one currently as it's got a work image on it now, but things DID work find :)07:46
jaegerer, fine07:46
jessica_lily:)07:46
jessica_lilyjaeger Thanks, I'll let you know how it goes07:48
jaegernp, good luck07:48
jaegerThere's a decent macbook pro page on the gentoo wiki that might be of use, as well as the ubuntu community macbook page07:50
jaegerthough I see now in the buffer you've already been to some of the ubuntu stuff07:51
jessica_lilyYeh, I've looked through the arch and gentoo stuff too07:51
jessica_lilyGot to decide on which de/wm to use too07:53
Romsteri like pekwm07:55
Romsterand currently using pypanel but i might change that to something else07:56
frinnstfluxbox works perfect for me07:56
jessica_lilyi hate panels :P07:56
Romstertoo used to a panel from my windows days07:57
jessica_lilyi was actually brought up on linux :P07:57
Romsterapple ][e commodore64 amstrad atari ms-dos windows linux i probably missed a few in there of lesser significance07:59
jessica_lily:P07:59
jessica_lilywell when i was little i use to sit on my dads knee when he was using slackware, he then switched to mandrake later07:59
Romsterlucky to be in linux08:00
frinnstbooo! thats the opposite of progress!08:00
frinnstmandrake..08:00
frinnst*brr* :)08:00
jessica_lilyxD08:00
jessica_lilyi have a soft spot for it :)08:00
Romsterfrinnst, is just the trollable guy here since han left someone had to replace him :P08:00
jessica_lilyxD08:01
teK_that was not nice :D08:01
frinnst\o/08:01
frinnst:D08:01
Romstertried manddrake befor ei went to debian08:01
teK_han.. our flying dutchman08:01
teK_I started out with Corel Linux!08:01
Romsteri meant that in a nice way08:01
Romsterfrinnst, is fine.08:01
jaegerstarted with slackware, myself08:01
Romsterit's more social n here than in other channels.08:02
enteSuSE08:02
frinnstaye, slackware -> crux pretty much08:02
jessica_lily:)08:02
Romsterhttp://www.adweek.com/news/technology/sopa-halted-house-137555 progress08:02
enteSuSE -> ubuntu -> everything else -> slackware -> crux -> slackware -> ?08:02
jessica_lilyi tried a lot of distros when i got my own computer08:03
entearch somewhere in between08:03
jessica_lilysettled on gentoo really08:03
jessica_lilyI just loved portage08:03
jaegerportage is really nice08:03
jaegerI was a gentoo user before switching to crux08:03
jaegerstill occasionally use it08:04
frinnstyeah, USE= is pretty nice.. keeps the dependencies to a minimum08:04
jessica_lilyindeed :)08:05
jessica_lilyjaeger how do you think gentoo compares to crux then? :)08:05
frinnstsimpler, cleaner08:05
jaegergentoo's far more complex but that comes with a lot more options08:06
Romstergenoo so much abstraction, crux you get your hands dirty learn more.08:06
jaegercrux is simpler as frinnst says and for most users probably more than enough08:06
jaegergentoo's extra features like USE flags and toolchain profiles are neat but not necessary for most usage08:06
teK_multiple gcc versions and slot installation08:06
entethat works with certain other operating systems08:07
enteand yeah, might be useful08:07
jaegerIf you have a legitimate *need* for those things, crux doesn't supply them08:07
Romsterwell we do have older gcc versions as well08:07
enteyou *could* just package them for crux anyway08:07
Romsterin contrib.08:07
enteslots aren't that useful if you can just make a package called gccXX08:08
enteI like pkgsrc for that, it's the way they manage python modules08:08
jessica_lilyhmm cool :)08:08
entei.e. when you build feedparser for python 2.7 the package is called py27-feedparser08:09
enteyou can install py26-feedparser right next to it08:09
jaegerThe point is that the out-of-the-box system is simpler but of course you can make it do anything you want if you put in the time08:09
entesame for pyXX-tk etc.08:09
thrice`I don't see a point :p08:09
jessica_lilylol im watching jeremy kyle08:10
entethrice`: the point is simply that you want to check whether or not your software works on older versions of $INTERPRETER08:10
enteor $CC08:10
jessica_lilyi don't know if that is known outside the uk08:10
jaegerITV show08:10
entealso gcc 2.95 had some optimisations that were removed from later releases because they were patented08:10
entealso it's much faster than later gcc's08:10
jessica_lilyjaeger yeh08:10
jaegerthere's an American version of it now, too08:10
jessica_lilyLOL08:11
jaegerstarted in september08:11
entesomeoneā„¢ claims 2.95 (shortly after the big egcs merge, iirc) still produces better code than later releases08:11
enteI do not have proof08:11
enteand nobody cares08:11
enteso I'll be quiet08:11
entesorry08:11
jessica_lilyente im reading it :)08:11
enteyou really don't want nor need to know it08:12
jaegerI noted it... it won't affect me but noted :)08:12
entegcc 2.95 has almost complete C99 support08:12
Romsterwhat happend to gcc1?08:13
jessica_lilyi don't use C99 :P08:13
jessica_lilyi use ANSI C08:13
enteoh, it's also faster to bootstrap08:13
enteand easier08:13
entewhen cross-compiling gcc, you often cross-compile gcc2 or gcc308:13
Romster2.95 is only faster as it does less expensive optimization's08:13
enteRomster: I have no clue08:13
enteRomster: yeah, and some patented ones08:13
Romsteri wasn't aware of the patented ones08:14
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entethe musl dev said so08:14
entedunno whether it's right or wrong, but he's someone I trust08:14
Romsterthough i remember the egcs08:14
enteI remember egcs and pgcc08:15
jaegerred hat used egcs a long time ago, that was kinda a pain08:15
jaegerthe idea was fine, the implementation was lacking at the time08:15
entehttp://oldhome.schmorp.de/ <- :P08:16
jaegerheh, found this in fedora gitweb: git config user.name "Fedora Ninjas"08:16
frinnst:>08:16
jaegerGoing to try some of their grub patches today to see if 0.97 works better with EFI boot CDs than 1.9908:17
teK_good luck08:18
jaegerthanks08:18
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Romsterbookmarked site for nostalgic reasons08:19
enteyeah, it looks so damn oldschool :D08:19
entelike the 90s called, they want their compiler back08:19
Romsterlol yeah08:19
jessica_lilyhehe08:19
jessica_lilyRighty, I think I might head off to nuke windows and put arch on :)08:19
Romsterok i'm tired enough to sleep so i'm out till later.08:19
jessica_lilyRomster night x08:20
Romsterif you get sick of arch try crux :)08:20
Romsterthere similar kinda.08:20
Romsterg'night08:20
jaegernight08:20
jaegeryou can always try it in a VM, too, play with it before any destructive partitioning08:21
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jessica_lilyI'm going to nuke my windows anyway :P08:21
jessica_lilyI dislike it too much08:21
jessica_lilyanyways ... be back soon folks :)08:24
jessica_lilyxx08:24
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rmullbuenas dias08:58
frinnstgod dag08:58
jaegerheyo08:58
frinnstoh so tired09:00
frinnstfuck mondays09:00
rmullAMEN.09:01
rmulloops.09:01
rmull*ramen09:01
rmulljk.09:01
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Jessica_LilyHey, I'm on my netbook i forgot i had :P\09:11
frinnstsuprise hardware ftw09:11
jaegerheh09:12
Jessica_LilyI'm quite tired :(09:14
teK_ lol09:14
Jessica_LilyI have to go shopping and to university later as well as installing crux09:14
Jessica_LilyThough the uni library (what i need) is 24/7 and the shop is too09:15
Jessica_Lilyso its not urgent09:15
teK_I'm somehow glad that there are no 24/7 shops in germany09:18
Jessica_Lilyhow come?09:19
Jessica_Lilythey're quite handy09:20
frinnstif there were, tek would never see daylight?09:20
Jessica_Lilyhaha :P09:20
teK_think of the workers. think of your life's rhythm .. it just seems to be creepy09:20
teK_yeah frinnst  :p09:20
teK_but our pub's don't have closing hours09:21
Jessica_Lilylol our uni library is 24/709:21
Jessica_Lily:P09:21
teK_that's far more important :>09:21
teK_see? there are 2 libraries (uni) in germany that are open 24/709:21
Jessica_Lily:P09:21
teK_people sleep there with their heads on the table09:22
Jessica_Lilyim sure there must be 24/7 shops09:22
teK_-> wtf??09:22
Jessica_LilyxD09:22
teK_Jessica_Lily: only within gas stations and they are expensive and limitation product-wise09:22
Jessica_Lily:P09:22
teK_s/limitation/limited/09:22
Jessica_Lilyalso buses are quite frequent here :P i live next to the busiest bus corridor in europe09:23
Jessica_Lily:P09:23
jaegerwinslow road?09:23
Jessica_Lilywilmslow road09:23
jaegerer, wilmslow09:24
Jessica_Lily:)09:24
Jessica_Lilyindeed09:24
jaegermy fingers are going faster than my brain09:24
teK_I can reach any store/uni/cafe in 10 minutes or less (per pedes) .. so no buses. Ever.09:24
Jessica_Lilyi live inbetween rusholme and fallowfield09:24
jaegerclosest I've been to there is Sutton on Sea09:26
Jessica_Lilyi live her for uni (I got to MMU) ... i use to live a hour on a train north.. in a small city called lancaster09:27
Jessica_Lily:P09:27
aonour uni library is 24/7 as well but there are no personnel there during the night09:28
aonwell, not the whole library but part of it anyway09:28
teK_latest I left the library was 21:30 or so09:28
Jessica_Lilythere is security but not main library staff09:29
Jessica_Lilywhat kind of ages and professions do we have here? :P09:31
teK_http://crux.nu/Profiles/ThomasPenteker09:31
Jessica_Lilystudent, what are you studying?09:32
teK_computer science09:33
Jessica_Lilyo right, cool09:33
teK_kinda :p09:33
teK_you?09:34
Jessica_Lilychemistry09:34
teK_nice09:34
teK_I heard it's quite hard and you have to have a phd to have the chance for a cool job09:34
teK_is that true for britain, too?09:34
Jessica_Lilyyep09:34
teK_which semester/degree?09:35
Jessica_Lilyhuh09:35
teK_what degree are you studying for and which semester are you at09:36
Jessica_LilyMChem Chemistry ... first year09:37
teK_ok09:37
Jessica_Lilyits erm basically undergrad + honours ... we call it a undergrad masters :P09:37
teK_I only know diplom/bachelor/master/phd09:37
Jessica_Lily:P09:40
Jessica_Lilywell after this i plan to maybe do a PHD09:40
Jessica_Lily* Ph.D09:40
Jessica_LilyI'm not sure I want to i'll wait and see, I might do a different course or do into a different profession09:41
Jessica_LilyI can progam so i could become a programmer or possibly hair dresser (something i've wanted to do for a while)09:41
teK_it's quite the same obviously09:42
Jessica_Lilyhuh09:42
teK_hairdressing and programming09:44
Jessica_Lilylol, sarcasem? :P09:44
teK_hardly09:45
Jessica_Lilyim so confused09:46
teK_by me? imposisble09:48
Jessica_LilyxD09:48
rmullDo both.09:52
Jessica_Lilywell i write software as a hobby :P09:53
Jessica_Lilyhttp://github.com/xray7224/09:53
rmullHey, good stuff.09:55
rmullI was reading an interesting article just the other day that some software houses use programs to crawl github and find "good programmers" based on some algorithm, rather than using a typical resume-based hiring procedure09:55
Jessica_Lilythat's cool09:56
rmullYeah, I thought so too, until I realized that I keep all my code in my own git repos, and even if it was on github, it would make me look bad. :(09:57
teK_:p09:58
Jessica_Lily:P my code isn't that great09:58
Jessica_LilyI don't keep it all on there09:58
teK_in germany there's a saying: others cook just cook with water, too09:59
Jessica_LilyI never tend to upload my C code09:59
Jessica_LilyteK_: :P what does that mean?09:59
teK_don't think that others are way better, often they aren't09:59
rmullFair point.10:00
teK_He puts his pants / trousers on one leg at a time.10:00
teK_:D10:00
Jessica_Lilyin my case its true though :P xD10:00
teK_crazy englishguys/gals :p10:00
Jessica_Lilyfecking takes ages resizing partitions10:00
Jessica_Lily:P10:00
Jessica_Lilythis was a terrible idea10:00
rmullPartition sizing should be fast - filesystem resizing is probably the slow one10:01
Jessica_Lilyand its ntfs :P10:01
rmullheh.10:01
Jessica_Lilynow where did i put that CD10:01
Jessica_LilyI now have to decide which fs to choose, i usually use reiser3 and i planned to switch when btrfs is more mature but it still has no check or fs fixer thingy10:03
teK_I guess xfs or ext4 are perfectly fine, too10:04
Jessica_Lily:P indeed10:04
teK_but I won't use reiserfs because I had way to many trouble with it (religious war, I hear you coming)10:04
Jessica_Lilyreiserfs is cool though it uses b-tree shizzle10:04
Jessica_Lilyeveryone loves a good b-tree10:04
Jessica_Lily:P10:05
Jessica_Lilyjust thought i'd share that :P10:06
teK_i know that phrasing only in different context *ahem*10:07
teK_but yeah thanks for the info. But no murder-FS for me10:07
Jessica_Lilymeh what hans did to his wife doesn't reflect in his code10:07
Jessica_Lilyhe still wrote great software10:07
Jessica_Lilyo crap i forgot to create swap10:08
Jessica_LilyI knew there was something10:08
teK_I'm just joking. I'm planning to write my bachelor paper with "help" from Prof. Dr. Hans Reiser :P10:08
Jessica_Lilyhuh10:08
teK_http://www.fim.uni-passau.de/en/sis.html same name, different person10:12
Jessica_Lilyah okay10:12
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rmullFew years ago I always used reiser3, but now I use ext410:17
rmullxfs I use on my fileserver because it's mostly large files without much deletion10:17
rmullI'll make the jump to btrfs as soon as the fsck tool is ready10:17
Jessica_Lilyyeh i have the same10:18
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Jessica_Lilyreiser3 still seems pretty good... not really used ext410:18
teK_as said before.. it caused quite some trouble for me and not only once..10:20
Jessica_Lilyweird10:20
Jessica_Lilywhat kind of trouble10:20
teK_instant kernel panic if a specific directory gets accessed for example10:20
teK_which.. sucks :p10:20
Jessica_Lilythats weird10:20
Jessica_Lilyi've never had any problems with reiser10:20
teK_:X10:20
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rmullreiser4 gave me some issues10:23
rmullbut reiser3 never was a problem10:23
teK_I gave it a shot about 5 years ago.. It had incredible performance AND cpu usage :)10:24
Jessica_Lilyreiser4?10:25
teK_yes10:25
teK_but I don't care that much about the FS.. I don't understand the hype with ZFS either10:25
teK_I think this plugin infrastructure is aquite cool idea (wrt reiser4)10:25
jaegerI love ZFS, use it at work for a lot of things10:25
jaegersnapshots, compression, deduplication are awesome10:25
teK_never had the urge to use one of those features :-)10:26
teK_brb (dinner)10:26
jaegerIt makes sense for certain storage loads, not for others10:27
Jessica_Lilycrux is installing10:33
Jessica_Lilyis this installer a new thing or has it always been there?10:33
jaegerBeen there for quite a long time, though I don't know if it was in from the start10:34
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jaegerteK_: I've been using that 48-drive expander setup I talked about a while back with FreeBSD and ZFS for a while now, working great :)10:59
Jessica_Lilyright while my kernel is compiling im going to head to the shop :P11:13
Jessica_Lilybe back in like 20 mins :P11:14
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teK_jaeger: great to hear. What are you doing withsnapshots? simple backup?11:38
Jessica_Lilyback11:50
Jessica_Lilyjust got milk, bread and sausages11:53
teK_toasted bread, cold pork  horseradish salad and bell pepper + Beer11:54
Jessica_Lilydon't like beer11:57
Jessica_Lily:P11:57
Jessica_Lilyawhh i got the kernel config wrong >.<11:58
Jessica_Lilyfail11:58
teK_I live in Bavaria!11:59
thrice`that's not Germany!11:59
Rotwanghttp://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=cYplvwBvGA412:11
teK_thrice`: indeed it's not. Germany belongs to the "Kingdom Bavaria"12:12
thrice`:P12:13
thrice`I say that, having been to bavaria twice :>12:13
teK_hehe12:13
Rotwangthrice`: october fest?12:14
thrice`no, my company is located in Bavaria12:14
Jessica_Lilyim so sleepy12:15
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* Rotwang in a quest to find perfect buildsystem12:33
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jaegerteK_: simple backups and replication to another zfs machine offsite12:38
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cruxbot[opt.git/2.7]: sqlite3: update to 3.7.1012:47
Jessica_Lilyhmm12:54
Jessica_Lilystill not booting, i wonder what i forgot12:55
jaegererror message?13:06
Jessica_Lilydw i'll fix it... its just im tired :P and was cooking also xD13:10
niklaswe=)13:13
jaegercarry on, then :)13:13
Jessica_Lily^_^13:15
jaegerI'm working on vmware esxi and 10gbe networking again13:16
Jessica_Lilywatching big bang theory13:16
Jessica_Lilyheyyy thats cool. they have token ring support into the linux kernel :P13:24
Rotwangkernel supports token ring since I remember13:24
Rotwangor at leas I think so13:25
teK_jaeger: have you read about my problem with vmware converter + automation?13:25
Jessica_Lilyreally... ive never seen it there13:25
teK_by chance? .)13:25
Jessica_Lilystill cool, the ethernet protocol is wacky xD13:25
jaegerteK_: no, I must have missed it13:25
teK_may I dpaste it?13:26
jaegerfine by me :)13:27
teK_http://dpaste.com/688710/13:27
jaegerI've never used the converter myself, our infrastructure was built with vsphere from the start13:29
jaegerso I've not needed to convert physical machines to VMs13:29
teK_because vsphere does that13:30
teK_me13:30
teK_h13:30
teK_thanks anyway :)13:30
jaegerSorry =/13:32
teK_I don't want to buy vsphere13:32
teK_had a peek at the costs.. noooo13:33
teK_just for the automation thing of it13:33
teK_no.13:33
jaegerMost of my servers are virtual, I love vSphere... but it's definitely not worth the cost for that13:36
teK_we're talking about physical 3-5 Servers13:37
frinnsti still dont understand exactly what you need to do13:37
teK_and cold standby virtual images for the disaster case13:37
frinnstjust convert physical machines to virtual?13:37
teK_on a nightly basis.13:37
frinnstjust use asigra :)13:37
jaegerI have 9 hosts currently and between 65 and 90 VMs depending on projects and time of year13:37
teK_cl... WHAT?13:38
teK_/4/13:38
teK_arg13:38
frinnst(we sell it)13:38
jaegerwe're a pretty small shop as far as vmware goes but yay for research/educational pricing13:38
frinnstyou might want to look into veeam.. dunno about cost though13:40
teK_no backup to the "cloud" for me13:40
jaegerhttp://www.p2vbackup.com/p2vbtutorial.asp kinda indicates that the GUI creates the XML file for you13:41
jaegerso my guess is you create it with the GUI once and then edit it to your liking later13:41
frinnstwhat? with asigra? you can keep it local only13:41
teK_jaeger: I found that tutorial a gazillion times, funny that this guy registered the domain13:42
teK_frinnst: I'll have a look, thanks13:42
jaegerhttp://www.lucd.info/2009/09/20/automating-convertor-enterprise-jobs-with-ps/ <-- how about thist one?13:42
jaegerThe script mentioned there has a template of the XML as well13:43
jaegerapropos of nothing, where should tftp files generally live? /var/lib/tftpboot seems a common one but why /var/lib?13:50
teK_dunno, tbh13:51
teK_there must be some pointless standard or smth.13:51
jaegerthe FHS says State information. Persistent data modified by programs as they run, e.g., databases, packaging system metadata, etc.13:51
teK_looking into the linked site, brb ;)13:51
aoni've used just /tftp/13:52
aonthat certainly isn't standard :)13:52
teK_yeah because that's too simple13:52
aonactually i think some *bsd howtos recommend /tftpboot13:53
jaegerI might use /var/tftp or /var/lib/tftp, just wondered13:55
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teK_which is build around a number of ESXi servers, each using one or more local datastores . Since we do this at regular intervals (more than once !), we wanted to automate this process.14:05
teK_sounds pretty nice14:05
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teK_VCB costs, too :\14:33
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jaegeryay, vmware 10Gbe networking is finally happy14:49
niklaswesweet =)14:50
frinnsthttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e9XsxQkoAe8&feature=player_embedded14:55
frinnstworth the wait14:55
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frinnsthttp://i.imgur.com/EEOci.jpg15:40
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v33http://waterfoxproj.sourceforge.net/ thoughts?16:05
frinnstwindows? yawn16:11
v33haha16:11
v33well, im sure somewhere down the line, a linux version will pop up16:11
frinnstwhy? its just firefox compiled for x86_64 with some compiler optimizations as far as i can tell16:12
v33oh. i thought it was something special... :/16:14
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rinesdo I have to recompile firefox if I want to use java?16:27
jaegeryou shouldn't need to, no16:28
rinesah, okay. java will be checked in configure but I wasn't sure...16:28
rineshere is doesn't work *grrr :/16:29
frinnstuh? java is just a plugin16:29
rinesyes, like flash I thought16:29
frinnstfirefox-java-plugin16:29
frinnstits a separate port16:29
frinnstyou probably only have jre installed or something16:29
rineshah! frinnst, my psychic!16:30
rinesthats it16:30
frinnst:)16:31
frinnsteasy thing to miss16:31
frinnst*zzz*16:31
rinesoh yes.. I only typed "jre" and was happy with the result16:31
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v33what else would you need in order to get java working, aside from jre?16:51
jaegertechnically nothing, though the firefox-java-plugin port provides a handy symlink for you16:53
v33oh, alright :)16:55
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v33anyone know how to fix dead pixels?17:52
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rmullv33: Dead? Maybe run that thing that cycles through R, then G, then B really fast18:19
rmullBut if it's dead it's dead18:19
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Jessica_LilyHey im back18:26
Jessica_LilyI fell asleep18:26
teK_wb :p18:30
Jessica_LilyxD thanks18:31
Jessica_Lilyi'll get my system sort of up then go back to sleep, got lectures at 9... unlike today i actually want to go to them xD18:31
Jessica_Lilythen I have labs later on :(18:31
Jessica_Lilyi hate labs18:31
teK_first year and you're already "missing" lectures18:32
teK_tsts18:32
Jessica_Lily:P i couldn't come today!!!18:32
Jessica_Lilyi was busy puking my guts up... had a tad too much to drink18:32
Jessica_Lily:P18:32
teK_I just didn't go :>18:33
Jessica_Lilytut tut18:33
Jessica_Lilyif ive missed something its always been for a reason18:33
teK_chronic aversion18:34
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Jessica_Lilygahh19:10
Jessica_Lilydamn internet19:10
* Jessica_Lily yawns19:14
Jessica_LilyteK_: when do they think reiser will get out of jail?19:15
Jessica_Lilyor get given a laptop in jail with the ability to write C, compile C and got a connection to the interwebs19:15
jaegerAnytime soon seems doubtful19:22
Romsterhe has his other zealots on reiserfs it wasn't just han19:29
Romsteror was it hans been awhile19:30
Jessica_Lilyokay i definitly need help19:30
Jessica_Lilyjaeger: can i take you up on that offer of help? :P19:31
jaegerWhat do you need?19:31
Jessica_Lilyokay, the kernel on boot panics... It gives the classic not syncing: VFS: unable to mount root fs on unknown-block(8,3)19:31
Jessica_LilySo I was like ah i must have forgotten my SATA drivers or fs stuff19:31
jaegeryeah, most likely19:32
Jessica_Lilyso i went back into my kernel and checked i had ext4 complied in and the nivida sata stuff (as thats what lspci tells me i have)19:32
jaegeror misconfigured boot loader19:32
Jessica_Lilytried again, still failed19:32
Jessica_Lilyi did check lilo but i can't see anything wrong19:32
jaeger'lspci -k | grep "in use"' can also be helpful while booted with the CD19:32
jaegerYou have ext4 and the controller builting <*> rather than as modules <M>, right?19:33
jaegers/builting/builtin/19:33
Jessica_Lilyyep19:34
jaegercan you paste your lilo.conf at pastebin.com or one of those sites?19:34
Jessica_Lilyerrr sure19:34
Romsterand either md-dos or GPT partition support19:37
Jessica_Lilyooo that could be it19:37
Romsterfstab lilo done19:37
Jessica_LilyGPT19:37
Jessica_Lilyhuh?19:37
jaegerby default msdos support is already in but not GPT19:37
Jessica_Lilyits a mac so... :P19:37
RomsterEFI GPT newer than the older dos partition label19:38
jaegerThat does not guarantee it's GPT19:38
Romstermacs probably use GPT19:38
jaegerThough it is likely19:38
Romsterno harm including it.19:38
jaegerif you run fdisk -l it will tell you19:38
Jessica_Lilyhttp://pastie.org/3198683 <-- lilo config btw19:39
jaegerdoes the list at the top include all partitions?19:41
Jessica_Lilyerr yes19:43
jaegerIt doesn't seem to have an ESP unless that's sda419:44
Jessica_Lily:P okay not all ... all non weird ones :P19:44
Jessica_Lily /dev/sda5 if that wasn't implied19:45
Jessica_Lily:P19:45
jaegersda5 was listed as swap19:46
Jessica_Lilyugh19:47
Jessica_Lily419:47
Jessica_Lilydamn this >.<19:47
jaegerwhat does fdisk -l say?19:47
jaegerdon't need the whole list, just looking for it to complain about GUID/GPT19:47
Jessica_Lilyo i drr19:51
Jessica_Lilyerr no it doesn't19:51
Jessica_Lilyjust want to see the header?19:51
Jessica_Lily(i.e. before the list)19:51
jaegerif your disk is GPT fdisk usually says something like "fdisk doesn't support gpt, use parted or similar"19:51
Jessica_Lilyo19:51
Jessica_Lilyno it doesn't say that :P19:51
Jessica_Lilyconsidering i made the parition table using fdisk :P19:52
Jessica_LilyxD19:52
jaegerThen if it was GPT before it isn't anymore, heh19:52
Jessica_Lily:P19:52
Jessica_Lilyokay19:52
jaegerdoes lspci -k say sata_nv for your controller?19:55
Jessica_Lilyerrr19:58
Jessica_Lilyi'll look19:58
Jessica_Lilyno :P19:58
jaegerahci?19:58
jaeger(I mean the module in use bit, sorry)19:59
Jessica_Lilywell i grepped ahci and it does say its in use19:59
Jessica_Lilybut then again i compiled it into my kernel also19:59
jaegerhrmm19:59
jaegerpastebin the kernel config and lspci output?20:00
Jessica_Lilyi really would but the CD doesn't have the firmware for my wireless card so it makes pastebinning crap hard :P20:00
Jessica_Lilyifconfig -a doesn't even show up ethernet card20:00
jaegernetwork modules don't get loaded automatically but some are there20:01
jaegernot wireless firmware, though20:01
Jessica_Lilyerrr20:02
Jessica_Lilyokay :P i'll check out what my ethernet thing is and see if i can modprobe it20:02
horrorStrucknot using lilo but isnt your boot= wrong? should be sda2 no ?20:02
jaegerif the boot loader is intended to be chained by something else, maybe20:02
jaegerif it's meant to go into the mbr, sda is proper20:02
jaegerI'm honestly not sure about booting a macbook into linux without osx/windows installed as well20:04
jaegerMight need to be GPT as well as have a small HFS+ partition with something like refit on it20:04
Jessica_Lilywell i had windows without the hfs and i've had ubuntu without hfs20:05
Jessica_Lilygranted i didn't touch any kernel or grub config on my mac when i threw ubuntu on20:05
jaegerGood to know... is it a core2 machine?20:05
Jessica_Lilyyeh20:06
jaegerAh, ok, it doesn't have that particular issue, then20:06
jaegermy mbp will hang for about 30 seconds looking for an HFS+ partition if there isn't one available20:06
Jessica_Lilywell it obviously goes to lilo and tries to boot20:06
Jessica_Lilyit just20:06
jaegeryeah20:06
Jessica_Lilyso i doubt that's the issue20:07
jaegerJust something missing still20:07
Jessica_Lilyby the way my ethernet is nvidia MCP79 how do i find out what module to load20:07
jaegerprobably forcedeth20:07
Jessica_Lilyyeh... error inserting forcedeath (/path/to/module/i/can't/be/bothered/to/type) invalid module format20:08
jaegerinvalid, hrm... never seen that one before20:09
Jessica_LilyxD20:09
Jessica_Lilygoing well ;)20:10
jaegera quick search indicates that might be caused by the compiled kernel not matching up with its modules20:10
* Jessica_Lily bangs head against wall20:10
Jessica_Lilyso... :P suggestions20:12
rmullJessica_Lily: Did you run a make modules_install after building your kernel?20:13
Jessica_Lilyindeed i did20:14
rmullSo there's a lot of scrollback... what problem are you trying to fix?20:14
rmullI saw before you had the VFS failure but that's fixed now?20:14
jaegerwithout seeing the kernel config and lspci I'm not really sure, just guesses20:15
Jessica_Lilyrmull: its not fixed not, and i can't load forcedeth to get my ethernet up so i can't pastebin anything20:16
Jessica_Lilyanyone got any ideas? :s20:24
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Jessica_Lilyjaeger: what did you want pastebinned?20:27
Jessica_Lilyalso does it have anything like nopaste or wgetpaste on the err CD?20:27
rmullJessica_Lily: If you have networking, <command> | curl -F 'sprunge=<-' http://sprunge.us20:29
rmullAs long as you have curl this should work20:29
Jessica_Lilyyeh the CD doesn't come with that20:29
Jessica_Lily:P20:33
Jessica_Lilyerrr hmm20:33
Jessica_Lilyi know hold on :P20:33
rmullwget -q -O - http://sprunge.us --post-data="sprunge=`cat /etc/resolv.conf`"20:34
Jessica_Lilyooo cool :P20:34
rmullYou can do it like this too. replace cat /etc/resolv.conf with your command.20:34
Jessica_Lilyyeh i guessed as much hold on then :P i shall connect to the network ^_^20:34
Jessica_Lilyrmull, jaeger: http://sprunge.us/BRfj (lspci), http://sprunge.us/YGcT (.config - kernel)20:40
Jessica_Lilygod apple really have a thing for nvidia don't they20:42
rmullThis is a Macbook?20:43
Jessica_Lilyyep20:43
Jessica_LilyMacbook 6,120:43
rmullSo this is a pretty old kernel, are you sure you don't want to use a newer one?20:44
Jessica_Lilyerrr well ... i plan on just upgrading when i upgrade everything else and just make oldconfig20:45
Jessica_Lilyand you know.... everything should be dandy20:45
rmullhm... okay, seems like an additional step IMHO, but no big deal20:45
Jessica_Lilyrmull: i just grapped the 2.7.1 CD and worked from that20:45
rmullAnd this is the .config with the VFS failure?20:46
Jessica_Lilyindeed20:46
rmullAny idea if this machine uses EFI?20:47
Jessica_LilyIt doesn't, I added it just incase (we discuessed it before you entered the convo) :P20:48
Jessica_Lilyi partitoned and everything with fdisk20:48
rmullI'm a little confused... the line entry that should exist when I grep for 'REISER' doesn't exist20:49
Jessica_Lilyeh :S20:50
Jessica_Lilythats weird20:50
jaegeryeah, I don't see reiser or ext420:55
Jessica_Lilyhmm20:55
Jessica_Lilyi definitly selected them in the menu20:55
jaegernot sure that's a complete file, look at the end20:55
rmullYeah, looks weird20:55
rmullDid wget chunk it? Check it locally20:55
Jessica_Lilyo yes it must have done20:56
Jessica_Lilythe end line is CONFIG_AVERAGE=y20:56
Jessica_Lilyerr20:56
rmullAhh, wget chunked it. It talks about that in the manpage, I think.20:57
Jessica_Lilydamn it20:57
rmullerr, I think.20:58
rmullPossibly not.20:58
rmullYou could try prepending "sprunge=" to your .config and then running wget -q -O - --post-file=.config http://sprunge.us21:00
rmullBut it /may/ behave in the same way. Worth a shot21:00
Jessica_Lilydamn i forgot to plug the laptop in >.<21:00
Jessica_Lilyhmm21:02
Jessica_Lilyi wonder how much it actually cut off21:02
Jessica_Lilybecause i could just tail the end off21:02
Jessica_Lilyyeh its way over 50%21:05
jaegerwell, now that you've pasted the lspci that should be enough info to figure it out21:07
jaegerso the important things would be UHCI and OHCI USB controllers, intel HD audio, forcedeth ethernet, sata_nv and ahci disk controllers, and the broadcom wireless21:08
jaegerplus your filesystem type and GPT/msdos partition tables if you feel like including them explicitly21:09
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jaegerwell, glad I typed that21:10
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v33would it be possible to stick crux on the rasperry pi?21:15
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Jessica_Lilysorry21:20
Jessica_Lilyinternets flakey21:20
jaeger21:08 <@jaeger> well, now that you've pasted the lspci that should be enough info to figure it out21:21
jaeger21:09 <@jaeger> so the important things would be UHCI and OHCI USB controllers, intel HD audio, forcedeth ethernet, sata_nv and ahci disk controllers, and the broadcom wireless21:21
jaeger21:10 <@jaeger> plus your filesystem type and GPT/msdos partition tables if you feel like including them explicitly21:21
Jessica_Lilyhttp://sprunge.us/KKbd <-- end of my kernel config btw21:21
Jessica_Lilyi tailed it off21:21
jaegerhrmm21:22
Jessica_Lilyas you can see i compile in ext4 errm and quite a bit of other stuff21:24
jaegeryeah, seems reasonable =/21:25
Jessica_Lilyi keep going back to see my lilo but as far as i can tell my lilo looks fine also so :S i donno21:26
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rmullIs this the first time you've installed Linux on this Macbook?21:26
Jessica_Lilynah, i've had ubuntu running on it21:26
Jessica_Lilywant me to pastebin lsmod of when i got the cd booted?21:28
rmullShrug, honestly I don't plan to get too involved21:29
Jessica_Lily:P21:29
rmullBut you could either borrow that kernel entirely or look at the lsmod there for clues\21:29
Jessica_Lilyi'll work it out eventually21:31
Jessica_Lilyjaeger: any ideas?21:31
jaegerpastebin the full 'lspci -k' if you can, as well as 'fdisk -l'21:33
Jessica_Lilyalrighty, i'll disconnect when i switch this machine back to wifi21:33
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Jessica_Lilydid my messages get through jaeger?21:45
Jessica_LilyI assume not21:45
Jessica_Lilyhttp://sprunge.us/ZFbH (lspci -k) http://sprunge.us/RTUY (fdisk -l) and http://sprunge.us/afiU (lsmod) for good messure21:46
jaegernot since you said you'll disconnect when you switch to wifi21:50
jaegerIs there a windows install on sda1?21:50
Jessica_Lilythere is but i have no intention of booting it i just want some data on it and it was the easiest way ot keeping it21:51
Jessica_Lilyinfact, i doubt it will boot since i resized it, without telling windows :P21:52
jaegerThat's fine, I just wanted to know if the partition was supposed to be an ESP or not21:52
jaegerheh, nice21:52
jaegerwell, based on those pastes I don't see the problem, unless I'm missing something21:52
jaegeralso, I see forcedeth loaded in your lsmod21:53
Jessica_Lilyindeed, its how i managed to pastebin the stuff21:53
jaegerwhat happened to invalid format?21:54
Jessica_Lilyerr, i fixed it, it was because i was trying to do it after chrooting21:55
jaegerah21:55
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Jessica_Lilyow i got the duvet in my eye >.<21:58
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jaegersounds painful22:05
Jessica_Lily:P it was22:07
Jessica_Lilyany look with the pastes?22:07
jaegerI'm out of ideas, sorry =( it all looks ok to me22:12
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Jessica_Lilyhmm22:20
Jessica_Lilydamn22:20
Jessica_Lilyjaeger: couldn't i generate a .config based on the lsmod22:21
Jessica_Lilythen maybe do a diff22:21
Jessica_Lilysee what we missed22:21
Jessica_Lilymy room mate is snoring really really loud... its very annoying22:23
jaegerI don't know of a way to generate one from lsmod alone but that's basically what I was looking at22:23
jaegerseeing which modules were in use and checking the .config for them22:23
Jessica_Lilythis is retarded, i am writing some python and i can't save it due to the size of the hdd of the netbook22:25
Jessica_Lilyits like 8gb ssd or something22:25
jaegerheh22:26
jaegerI used to have an EeePC with a 4GB one22:26
Jessica_Lilyanything less than 50gb is pretty much useless these days :P22:27
Jessica_Lilyugh i'll be a long night if i have to do this by hand22:27
Jessica_Lilyi found a script which modifies kernel configs based on lsmod22:29
rmullGentoo uses something called genkernel22:31
rmulldunno about using it on a different distro but you could check22:31
Jessica_Lilyi don't suppose anyone still has that kernel config i posted the top of it22:37
jaegerhttp://sprunge.us/KKbd bottom22:38
jaegerhttp://sprunge.us/YGcT top22:38
Jessica_Lilythanks22:38
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Jessica_Lilyhumph... this script is stupid :P22:41
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Jessica_Lilyright lets try this23:01
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Jessica_Lilynupe23:04
Jessica_Lilydamn it!23:04
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v33this internet is ridiculous.23:05
Jessica_Lilyawhh man uni soon23:06
Jessica_Lilyim quite tired too23:06
jaegerit's like 5 am there, right? yeesh23:07
Jessica_Lilyyeh23:07
Jessica_Lilyjaeger: what :P i want this working xD23:07
v33if you dont mind me asking, what kind of mac is it?23:10
Jessica_Lilymacbook 6,123:13
Jessica_Lilyi sort of gave up going through this nicely and just started enabling crap loads... if i can get it booted i can neaten it up later23:14
Jessica_LilyIf i get this working i might write an article on the wiki :P23:15
Jessica_Lilylets see if it works23:17
* Jessica_Lily crosses fingers23:17
jaegergood luck23:17
Jessica_Lily-.-23:17
Jessica_Lilygahhh23:17
Jessica_Lilyit has to be something in the boot loader or something23:18
Jessica_Lilyi have enabled so much crap23:18
jaeger:(23:18
Jessica_Lilyit must be lilo23:19
Jessica_Lilyjaeger: can you think of anything in relation to lilo?23:20
jaegernot at the moment, sorry23:20
Jessica_Lilymaybe i should post to the mailing list23:21
Jessica_Lilyim going to :P23:28
Jessica_Lilymaybe they can help23:28
Jessica_Lilyo do you think my fstab could be at fault?23:30
Jessica_Lilyit looks correct as far as i can see23:32
jaegernope, the system isn't booting that far23:35
Jessica_Lilyhow long does the ML usually take to respond? :P23:42
Jessica_Lilyjaeger: actually, i don't think it knows what to mount... it says above the kernel panic No file system could mount root, tried:23:45
Jessica_Lilyand nothing is listed23:45
jaegerhrmm, odd23:46
jaegerif you specify root=/dev/whatever on the command line does it help?23:46
Jessica_Lilyon lilo?23:47
jaegeryes23:47
jaegerWhen you boot, use 'CRUX root=/dev/sda3' or whatever the right partition was23:48
Jessica_Lilyhmm23:49
Jessica_Lilyjaeger:  tried it, still isn't listing any23:49
jaeger:(23:50
Jessica_Lilythis is so stupid! >.<23:52
Jessica_Lilyjaeger: can i get the CD lilo to boot from my hdd? maybe see if it is my lilo by using another23:53
jaegerthe cd actually uses sylinux but you can try there as well, CRUX root=/dev/sda3 or whatever23:55
Jessica_Lilyhmm23:56
Jessica_Lilyit said mount: mounting /dev/sda3 on /newroot failed: invalid argument23:56
Jessica_Lilythen fell back to the CD23:56
Jessica_Lilyhuh why wouldn't it let me post to the mailing list :S23:57

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