IRC Logs for #crux Monday, 2012-11-19

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vee_so what is everyone up to00:52
prologicreading the backlog sucks when it gets large-ish over a day of being at work01:06
prologicsomeone gimme the 1-line summary :)01:06
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Romstereating dinner before going to darts01:15
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Romsterprologic, today was ok yesterday was another story01:17
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niklasweRomster: haha :)01:17
prologicqwll as long as we're all having fun :)01:19
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vee_i keep seeing video sof people outrunning the cops in accurate is this?01:24
vee_in america, you probably would be shot and then beaten, and if you were still alive, shot again01:24
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zenwalkuservee_, yeah I can imagine, wild wild west O_o   Good that in Europe things are more civilized ;-P01:27
vee_i've been pulled over 3 times this week for no reason. all because i drive a sporty car01:28
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Romstermore like cop pile, tasered 15 times and a whole can of capstan spray01:38
Romsteri'd rather have a sleeper car than a cop magnet vee01:38
vee_it is a sleeper, but, not a sleeper at the same time. i drive it like an old granny, but it is ultimately a tuner car02:00
frinnstvee_: assuming you are hiding your platenumber its not unthinkable02:06
frinnstswedish cops can only chase you for xx seconds or something02:07
vee_frinnst, its clear i need to rethink my living arrangments haha02:13
vee_once i finish building my car, perhaps ill bring it by for a visit :D02:14
vee_prepare the bail out money frinnst02:19
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guzzanosomebody with error in lib soup? no install for fooprint error03:29
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Romsterdunno what guzzano is on about jsut tested libsoup it's ok.05:17
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nullmarkHi. Im thinking about switching from arch to crux, mostly because of arch now using systemd. Does anyone know if crux is switching to systemd too?05:48
frinnstno its not06:09
nullmarkYaaaaay :D06:12
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Romsterwhen hell freezes over.06:43
cruxbot[contrib.git/2.8]: allegro: 5.0.6 -> 5.0.806:45
cruxbot[contrib.git/2.8]: allegro4: add dependency glu06:45
cruxbot[contrib.git/2.8]: asciidoc: 8.6.7 -> 8.6.806:45
cruxbot[contrib.git/2.8]: atanks: 5.5 -> 5.606:45
cruxbot[contrib.git/2.8]: cython: 0.17 -> 0.17.106:45
cruxbot[contrib.git/2.8]: ffmpeg: 0.10.4 -> 0.10.606:45
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tilmansudden influx of arch users07:09
tilmandue to systemd07:09
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Romsteryeah i did not see this coming.07:32
nullmarkWell, systemd has already broken one of my systems comletely, another partly. Umts is not working anymore with or without systemd. And its so ... ridicilous, having the init system doing everything. Even acpi and logging, but the log files are binary.07:33
frinnstyou can turn that off, no?07:33
frinnstthe binary logging07:33
nullmarkNo :)07:34
nullmarkWell, partly07:34
nullmarkIt can be made to not log anything anywhere, but the process is running nonetheless.07:34
frinnstdoes the release listed on the dl page contain systemd? archlinux-2012.11.01 ?07:35
nullmarkIts now the default, support for init scripts will be dropped soon.07:35
nullmarkThey will even remove the perfectly working scripts.07:35
nullmarkFor the dl release, i dont know, all my setups are some years old now.07:38
nullmarkI just copy a working one, installing takes too much time ;)07:38
nullmarkI get it right that ports is somewhat comparable to aur?07:40
zenwalkusernullmark, the introduction of systemd as default in arch has made me look for crux, it's a pitty arch is not sticking with BSD-style init... :'(07:41
Romsterwell i guess this is where arch wont copy crux on not using systemd07:42
zenwalkuserbinary logging is stupid! and the systemd config files are not even in /etc I wonder if the systemd devs understood about FHS??07:42
Romsterthere is a few udev forks we are holding off on seeing how they head.07:42
RomsterFHS what's that can't even have /usr on it's own partiton anymore.07:43
Romsterbinary logging was meant to be faster, but having to use a tool to read it would be a pain.07:43
nullmarkzenwalkuser: Absolutely. But its not only systemd. Ich disliked the decision to drop if tools as well. There where other things too.07:44
zenwalkuserFHS - File System Hierarchy Standard07:44
Romsteri know that just taking a punt on the /usr can't be on it's own partition anymore.07:44
Romsterheck even linus is mad07:45
zenwalkuserRomster, systemd is limiting you to keep /usr on the system root partition?07:45
jaegerI don't use arch but as I understand what I've read you aren't forced to USE systemd for init if you don't want to, only to have it installed because various things now depend on it07:45
jaegerthough that seems bad enough to a lot of users07:45
Romsteryes last i read they dropped support for separate /usr07:45
zenwalkuserRomster, how is Linus involved in the systemd dilemma?07:45
nullmarkjaeger: Well in theory, yes. But you have then to write your own init scripts.07:46
jaegeror install some other init package07:46
zenwalkuserRomster, systemd dropped that or arch, well whoever it's a stupid idea!07:46
jaegerI've no doubt that some systemd-hater is maintaining something else07:46
nullmarkI know of only one (seemingly dead) Project07:47
Romsterthat's a laugh07:47
nullmarkBut i have some hope left yet. I really like pacman :)07:47
Romster"Stop this crazy. FIX UDEV ALREADY, DAMMIT."07:47
Romster"Two-faced lying weasel" would be the most polite thing I could say.07:48
* zenwalkuser wondering if anytime Pat will decide to have BSD-style init replaced by systemd in Slackware07:48
Romsteryeah he arn't happy.07:48
Romsterthe whole systemd/udev hal dbus is a mess.07:49
zenwalkuserRomster, I thought hal is dead and replaced by udev, hal is not in slack anymore07:49
nullmarkMeh, sometimes i guess poettering is payd by microsoft to destroy linux ;)07:50
Romsternot now no but that is a mess still.07:50
jaegertechnically hal is dead, yes. it's still in use some places07:50
Romstersome ports depend on hal still.07:50
nullmarkYes, systemd replaces hal and udev, and i think polkit and consolekit too.07:50
Romstersystemd replaces the entire init too. next it'll replace the kitchen sink07:52
nullmarkOh, it replaced logging, xinit and acpi already. Or broke it.07:53
nullmarkAeh sorry, not xinit07:53
Romsteri have a strong hate for this systemd as much as i have about pulseaudio, how they get away with this is beyond me.07:53
Romsterok some stuff like xinetd is very old but it works, why replace what's not broken?07:54
nullmarkdribbling idiots, i guess :)07:55
zenwalkuserRomster, looks like Linus is not amused about systemd and how those maintainers messup udev...07:55
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zenwalkuserThey relace so many part with ONE tool !? That is not Unix pholosophy, one tool ONE JOB!07:56
nullmarkWell, the systemd motto is: "do everything, no matter how"07:57
nullmarkI tried to compile a minimal systemd, and found a option to deactive a webserver for whatever stuff. I gave up at that point.07:58
Romsterzenwalkuser, precisely my thoughts exactly.07:58
zenwalkuserRomster, then there is hope, usually linus gets what he wants ;-)07:59
Romsterthere is probably more that i haven't read about.07:59
joacimoh i wish i could disable the webinterface/server crap in transmission and still be able to use remote tools.07:59
Romsteri'd like to know who hired him and his friend so i can kick him in the nuts.08:00
Romsterjoacim, you can't? isn't there a configure option?08:00
Romster./configure --help08:00
Romsterdon't you need a remote server to use remote tools?08:01
joacimi havent seen any08:01
Romsterdeluge works great and you can use gtk on another box to connect to that too.08:01
Romsterbut probably too heavy on deps for your liking.08:02
joacimi know, but i still think it is a bit much to have the whole web-interface available when you only want to use remote tools08:02
joacimi'm using transmission-remote-cli from a mac atm.08:02
Romsterso just firewall it off in iptables.08:02
RomsterOS X i could never get used to that.08:03
Romsterand i really tried.08:03
joacimi've seen some people rm the web-interface files08:03
Romsterah you want to get rid of web UI but keep the RPC stuff?08:04
zenwalkuserRomster, nullmark, letting one tool take care of almost everything can easily render the system not working anymore if something breaks08:04
zenwalkusersystemd is crap08:04
Romster setting your TRANSMISSION_WEB_HOME environment variable to /dev/null before starting Transmsision08:07
Romsterugly but might do.08:07
joacimi'll try that08:07
Romsteri don't think RPC would work if you disabled the server.08:07
Romsterzenwalkuser, nullmark put it thsi way if i was rich i would spend some money on programmers to do stuff the right way.08:09
Romstersince i can only do very limited programming myself.08:09
Romstermy curse i have a brain impairment, what programming i managed todo ages ago is mostly forgotten and takes me like 30 times longer to relearn... given up on the most part.08:10
joacimtransmission do some strange things by default. I only recently figured out how to make transmission not spam your system logs with mundane torrent activity.08:11
joacimthe /dev/null trick works fine08:12
nullmarkzenwalkuser: i second that. Thats why im looking for a new distribution :)08:13
zenwalkusernullmark, well crux looks nice but I still prefer Slackware ;P08:15
nullmarkI will try that to, as well as gentoo (again), and debian as a last resort.08:16
Romsteris slack using systemd too yet?08:17
Romsteri hadn't looked08:17
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frinnstI used to use slack. but when i did there was no slapt-get and stuff like that08:22
frinnstso updating was a bit of a pain08:22
Romsterah no dependency like prt-get does for pkgmk right08:23
frinnstno, you had to download security fixes from their ftp or a mirror manually :)08:24
frinnstalso pat got sick and no updates came out for a month or so08:24
nullmarkOh, the crux packet manager supports dependancy tests?08:25
frinnstthe frontend prt-get does08:26
frinnstprt-get depinst xorg08:26
nullmarkVery good. I was not sure :)08:27
Romsterprt-get upper level dependency handling tool to pkgutils.08:27
nullmarkIs the likeness in the name to apt-get intendet?08:28
Romsterdunno but that does a similar task.08:43
KaishiI just tried to install ntp08:44
Kaishichown: invalid user: 'ntp:ntp'08:44
KaishiERROR: Building '<package path>' failed.08:45
Kaishidoes that mean I should create a user 'ntp' and a group 'ntp' and try again?08:45
niklasweKaishi: did you do pre-install ?08:45
Kaishinope! I didn't know there was a pre-install08:45
KaishiI just did prt-get install ntp08:45
niklasweif you do that first and the installing ntp.08:46
Kaishiprt-get pre-install ntp08:46
Kaishilike that?08:46
Kaishiprt-get: Unknown command 'pre-install'.08:47
Kaishitried without the hyphen too08:47
niklasweKaishi: cd /usr/ports/contrib/ntp08:48
joacimit is install --pre-install (or --install-scripts (it is in the manpage))08:48
Kaishijoacim: thank you!08:48
joacimyou can also run the pre-install script manually. you can find it in the ports dir for ntp08:48
niklasweyou do it manually08:48
niklasweor you cant do it manually*08:48
joacimthat way you dont have to reinstall the whole package08:48
niklaswegaah I cant write :(08:49
Romsteror you can set the option in prt-get.conf08:49
systemd_suxXwhy pre and post install cannot be handled in the build script?08:49
Kaishireinstalling the package isn't a problem :) it just takes a little whole08:49
Romsterrunscripts yes08:50
Romstersecurity risk though that's why it's off by default08:50
Romsterok for the official and semi-official but personal repos be careful to see they are ok.08:51
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Romsterthough i haven't seen anything malicious /yet/08:51
Kaishiokay so now that I have ntp installed, I can use ntpdate instead of rdate, right?08:52
niklasweKaishi: yupp08:52
Romsterbe sure to set ntpd in SERVICES array in /etc/rc.conf08:55
Romsterand start it /etc/rc.d/ntpd start08:55
Kaishiand here I was um08:55
Kaishiwriting cron08:56
KaishiI'll undo what I just did08:56
Romsteri had a hunch you were lol...08:56
Romsterbe sure you set a ntpd time server though in /etc/...08:57
Romsteralso order matters in SERVICES=() you want ntpd after net08:57
Kaishiokay i just edited a file using vim, wrote it, and now I see a file named the same but with a tilde (~) after it08:57
Kaishiwhat is that?08:57
Romsterthat's a backup copy08:58
Romstervim created that.08:58
Kaishiwill it be ignored by cron?08:58
Romsterin case you stuff up you can revert your changes08:58
Romsterwhy you using cron?08:58
Romsterit should08:58
Romsterjust rm it.08:59
systemd_suxXhow to utilise more runlevels on crux, I would like to have rl4 for x and have x killed automatically once I switch to rl2 or 308:59
KaishiI'm actually commenting out stuff that I had done08:59
systemd_suxXi guess I have to rework the initscripts to make that happen08:59
Romsterdunno i personally just login then do startx08:59
frinnstjust add an entry to inittab09:00
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Romsterguess you want to use xdm for a pretty login screen09:00
systemd_suxXRomster already using slim ;P09:01
KaishiRomster: for the ntp stuff, I just want the system to use the ntp client, is that still "ntpd"?09:01
systemd_suxXfrinnst, no then I have to kill x manually once I change the runlevel09:01
Kaishibecause ntpd to me sounds like a host09:01
RomsterKaishi, yes that's a daemon but it updates the time too.09:02
Romsteryou just have that ntpd running and it'll keep the time in sync09:02
Kaishibut it isn't called 'ntpcd' or something09:03
Kaishiit's just ntpd09:03
systemd_suxXcrux initscripts are currently not designed to support multiple runlevels...09:03
Romsterit can act as a server too if you configure that option in ntpd.conf09:03
Kaishithat's my confusion09:03
joacimi think there is something called ntpdate09:03
Kaishintpdate is just a single-use tool. "update time now against X server"09:03
Kaishii wrote cron stuff to call ntpdate regularly after testing it, but romster's right, it's better to use it as a service09:04
joacimjust reboot your computer often09:04
KaishiI just wasn't thinking09:04
Kaishirebooting isn't the issue :) it's a VM, so time sync is funky09:04
systemd_suxXRomster, Kaishi, ntpd is always acting as a server, but you can configure it to only listen and serve localhost09:04
Kaishisystemd_suxX: cool name :D09:05
KaishiI'll figure all this service stuff out >_> just gotta keep reading09:05
systemd_suxXKaishi, ;-)09:05
systemd_suxXKaishi, your nick means 'Fisherman' in Japanese ;)09:06
Romsteri have ntpd on my firewall update my firewall and listen for my desktops to sync to that local copy of ntpd09:07
jaeger <-- that took some work, heh09:09
Romsternice did you see the ML on someone asking?09:09
jaegeryeah, that's why I worked it out09:10
jaegergonna respond to him with some info09:10
Kaishidarksouls <309:10
jaegerI love Dark Souls :D09:10
Kaishime too09:10
KaishiI'm guessing you don't play the PC version though..09:11
jaegerI even stream it on occasion09:11
jaegerI have the PC and the PS3 versions09:11
jaeger for example09:11
Kaishinice. I don't stream but I do play pretty often09:12
KaishiI just beat gwyn for the first time last night, SL100 STR-pyro.  I have like 5 other characters, each with wildly different styles and loadouts09:13
nullmarkI just read in the crux instalation manual that i have to compile the kernel. Are there alternatively binary kernel packages available?09:13
jaegernice. I've got a bunch of different chars as well, that's a big part of the fun :)09:13
jaegernullmark: no official ones09:13
Kaishinullmark: apparently no, but compiling the kernel isn't a big deal09:13
Kaishiyou could use the config from the installation media if you want09:14
Romsternot really nullmark you can use the config off the iso for starting but change the root fs disk controller stuff to built in *09:14
Romsterbinary.... this is crux not debian <_<09:14
Kaishiromster: bwahaha09:14
Kaishinullmark: Romster's absolutely right on that last part.  If you're used to deb/ubuntu, then crux has a little bit of a learning curve, but it isn't a bad thing.  Honestly, it feels... pure.09:15
Kaishibut in a good way09:15
Romsterbe sure to set for udev CONFIG_DEVTMPFS=y CONFIG_DEVTMPFS_MOUNT=y09:15
Romsteryou'll notice faster speed once you strip the junk out of the kernel.09:16
Romsterlspci -k09:16
Romsterlook for your stuff in make menuconfig09:16
Romsterhint you can search with / sometext09:16
KaishiI cut my kernel's driver support down to basically nothing, just the 5 or 6 drivers needed for my VM platform (hyper-v) and it runs amazingly well09:16
nullmarkRomster: thats a good idea, thanks :)09:17
joacimthere are make options that can build a config for you, based on your current hardware09:17
joacimits probably not perfect, but it is a good starting point09:17
Romsterwhich is that one joacim ?09:17
Romsteri never had that luxury -_-09:17
niklasweIm bored....09:18
joacimsomething like make allyesconfig or allmodconfig09:18
nullmarkKaishi: my problem is more that i have some pretty slome systems, where a kernel compile run could take half a day :)09:18
Kaishimaybe compile on a faster box and move the binary over to the slower ones?09:18
nullmarkyeah, i think i have to09:18
Romsterif it could take half a day there are some ports that will take a week to compile09:18
Kaishioh jeez.09:19
nullmarkim pretty sure i wont need those on such a slow machine :)09:19
KaishiI haven't encountered anything that takes longer than 15 minutes to compile on my setup, yet.09:19
Romsternote it's only the big stuff like qt4 webkit boost09:19
joacimwebkit takes an hour on mine09:19
systemd_suxXnullmark, you can use the slackware huge kernel that one will work out-of the box in crux since it doesn't requires a initrd09:19
Romsterabout that here too.09:19
joacimmid-to-low end C2D from six years ago.09:19
nullmarksystemd_suxX: really? Thats quite cool, thanks :)09:20
Kaishijoacim: those are still relatively fast, objectively speaking09:20
Kaishiain't no 286 :D09:20
joacimusing this six years later wasnt as painful as using an original pentium in 200209:20
systemd_suxXnullmark, get the huge kernel, firemware and kernelmodules package and extract it on crux then you have all you need, I used the slackware kernel config a a base for my custom kernel09:21
joacimthis system is still quite usable, but i'm not running any modern games on it.09:21
nullmarkI have a really small sony subnotebook with a 600mhz crusoe processor, its about as fast as a 200-300mhz Pentium II :)09:21
Kaishiaw :309:21
Kaishihow big is it?09:21
nullmarkLike a VHS cassette, but about half as high :)09:22
systemd_suxXjaeger, grub2 uhh, creepy ;)09:22
Kaishimy smallest systems these days are 1U jobs, but I'd like to do some 2x-1U builds, just no need right now09:22
nullmarksystemd_suxX: i will definitely try that :)09:22
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Kaishilike 2 systems in a single 1U chassis, custom formfactor09:23
joacimi mean localyesconfig/localmodconfig. not allyesconfig.09:23
systemd_suxXnullmark, It's important you get kernel-huge (not generic!) AND kernel-modules AND kernelfirmware package in order to make it work09:23
jaegersystemd_suxX: creepy?09:24
joacimallyesconfig will enable absolutely everything. not good for computers where a kernel build takes half a day =)09:24
systemd_suxXnullmark, you need to download 3 ! packages from slackware current09:24
nullmarksystemd_suxX: understood :)09:24
jaegerallyesconfig kernels also take a LONG time to boot due to the debugging stuff09:24
nullmarkI have copied the list for later use :)09:24
systemd_suxXjaeger, yes grub2's configuration with that template stuff is weird09:26
Romsterit's best to configure the kernel do the make and make modules_install09:26
systemd_suxXjaeger, it's not kiss anymore09:26
Romstercopy and bzImage as vmlinuz to /boot why pull in arch stuff other than possibly reusing the .config as a starting point.09:27
nullmarksystemd_suxX: kernel-huge is the kernel with all generic drivers compiled in, i guess?09:27
Romstertake some time to learn what drivers you need.09:27
Romsterwell worth the effort.09:28
systemd_suxXnullmarrk yes, that one with most drivers compiled in, that one did not requires a initrd09:28
Romsteralso make will only recompile parts that need to be done if you change a option not the entire source again.09:28
systemd_suxXbtw, the zenwalk kernel is also working it is smaller and also doesn#t require a initrd, so you have the option to use slackwares huge kernel or the default kernel from zenwalk or salix;)09:29
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nullmarkThats a good plan. I will do that until i make a final decision which way to go :)09:31
Romsterexpect to fail before you succeed09:32
Romsterunable to sync VFS means missing controller/fs/partition support \built in\ or wrong boot or fstab for root.09:33
Romsterbut once your over that part it's pretty smooth sailing.09:34
Romsterdamn time guess i better get to bed or i wont be able to work later09:35
cruxbot[opt-x86_64.git/2.8]: nvidia:update to 310.1909:40
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jaegersystemd_suxX: you don't have to use the template setup, for what that's worth. I don't use it09:40
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systemd_suxXjaeger, but then next time you update the grubpackage your modifications are gone, they say *do not edit this file directly* in menu.cfg09:42
jaegersystemd_suxX: perhaps you're used to ubuntu or some system that automatically overwrites grub.cfg, crux does not by default09:42
jaegerpedja: thanks for the update09:42
pedjanp, you did all the work :)09:43
jaegerglad to help :D09:43
pedjavdpau is awesome, 2% mplayer usage on HD video09:43
systemd_suxXjaeger, that's not the point, the point is that the way how upstream designed that in grub2 is weird, of course you can do it other way, but that's not like it is designed by upstream and that design is what I think is wrong09:43
pedjaon my ancient 8500gt09:44
jaegersystemd_suxX: I don't have a strong opinion about it, honestly. It's not like upstream forces you to use the tool, that's more of a distro choiec09:44
jaegerchoice, too09:44
jaegerpedja: vdpau is indeed awesome, my HTPC can't quite play 1080p h264 without it, but with it it's silky smooth. (1.6GHZ atom quad-core)09:45
jaegerwith an nvidia 9600gt-ish (ion)09:45
systemd_suxXjaeger, thendency of grub2 configuration is similar to configuration of systemd09:45
pedjathat's a modern card, compard to mine :)09:45
jaegerI find that to be a very strange statement but ok09:45
pedjacompared, even09:45
systemd_suxXjeager, I see parallels in the design concept, no single config textfiole anymore...09:45
jaegerpedja: pretty old in terms of moore's law, though :)09:45
jaegersystemd_suxX: the big difference is that in grub you are not forced to use it. you can use your own single config file if you want09:46
joacimi'm still using a gf7600gt09:47
jaegermy oldest is a 6200, still working well09:47
systemd_suxXjaeger, waht I mean is, why design and emphasize on templates if you can edit a single config file directly, why to split the configuration all over different places on the filesystem and why is there a need of introducing another layer of complexity?09:47
pedjaheh, by the time my phone contarct expires, quad core phones will be dime a dozen :)09:48
jaegersystemd_suxX: I think it's nice that they give you both options. some users probably prefer the template system. It does make things easy for distributions as well, such as ubuntu, to script grub updates when new kernel packages are installed, that sort of thing.09:48
pedjahuawei ftw09:49
systemd_suxXjaeger, config files can easily modified using scripts no need for a templatesystem09:50
KaishiI'm running a Galaxy Nexus and I can't imagine changing phones for a while09:50
systemd_suxXjaeger, no need for additional layer of abtraction09:50
jaegersystemd_suxX: It's nice to have both options, in my opinion. They aren't forcing one or the other.09:50
jaeger*need* very rarely drives software design09:51
jaegerAFK, meeting09:51
pedjathere is no need for systemd, yet it exists :)09:51
pedjaKaishi: which Nexus?09:52
systemd_suxXjaeger, in FOSS content the need is what drives it, IMHO. devs started to code theire own programs becuasee there was nothing avaiable they could use or it did not fit their needs, they did the tools they way how the devs nneded them not how the users wanted them09:52
pedjaand that is why linux on desktop is dead in the water...09:53
systemd_suxXpedja, who cares what the masses thinks, I don't want any stupid noob telling me how he/she thinks linux should be improved! They lack experince to make that decisions and the GNU/Linux they would like to have I would never like, see all that *bntu crap!09:55
KaishiSamsung Galaxy Nexus, the 3rd 'nexus' phone09:55
pedjaKaishi: nice :) Is JB an improvement to ICS?09:56
KaishiJB is nice, yes09:56
pedjasystemd_suxX: 99% of users just want to get the job done, they don't care what OS are they on.09:58
Kaishisystemd_suxX: the masses don't even know what they want.  most decisions today are made for 'business reasons' including those in Ubuntu, odd as it sounds09:58
Kaishiall I want is flexibility, choice, options, alternatives09:59
systemd_suxXpedja, and I don't care about those 99% of dumb users09:59
joacimi do =)09:59
systemd_suxXpedja, Kaishi, you are right if it comes to hardware! if the hardware makers would be forced by law to open their specs, there would be no problem getting you favorite os running on that no matter how famous it is or how many people using it.10:00
Kaishithere does need to be a law about releasing design specs for the sake of driver authors10:01
Kaishisomeone at novell proposed this a while back as I recall10:01
pedjait is all about the money, when they see that they can make a profit, they will do something,10:01
systemd_suxXUbuntu is becomming more and more such a toy OS like android10:02
Kaishisystemd_suxX: let's extend that:10:02
joacimi suppose they dont want people to make professional-grade drivers for their cheap cards10:02
KaishiWindows is becoming more a toy; Mac OS is becoming more a toy.10:02
Kaishithey're all moving that way10:02
Kaishibecause people are getting more lazy and more stupid10:02
Kaishiwe're making life too easy10:02
Kaishiand yet, people aren't happier over how much easier life has become because the change has been gradual enough that they barely remember previous ways of doing things.10:03
pedjabroadcom open sourced their drivers, because of a US federal regulations.10:03
EntroacceptorKaishi: that's because there's more to do onw10:03
joacimi think these expensive professional cards that amd/nvidia makes are pretty much the same as their cheaper cards. which is why you need an expensive card (for 3D modelling and cad) for windows, but on a mac you only need a cheap one (apple controlls the drivers)10:04
pedjano linux drivers, no federal contract.simple.10:04
systemd_suxXwell, what they are afraid? that someone copy their hardware? first they still keep patents even if releasing the specs and second, developing a fork of that hardware would take time so the competitor trying that will release that at a time where the original manufacturer already has a better model, and the copied one is outdated10:04
systemd_suxXi think, they afraid more that others see what THEY copied or how crappy their implementation is...10:05
Kaishihigher end cards are most certainly different from lower end ones, and 3d performance in Mac OS suffers because apple doesn't care about performance hardware10:05
joacimi'm not talking about radeon 9800 vs. 920010:05
joacimi'm talking about workstation grade cards vs. the 920010:05
Kaishiit's mostly a firmware difference, as I understand it10:06
joacimnot pure performance, but rather support for professional software like 3D modelling and CAD10:06
joacimsoftware that simply wont run on windows with cheap consumer grade drivers10:06
joacimon a mac you dont have this divide between consumer grade and professional10:06
KaishiI'm with you now.10:06
joacimbuy any mac, and you will be able to use professional grade software10:07
KaishiMac GPUs run customized firmware, I know that much10:07
joacimit used to be true, but i dont know if that is still true today, seeing how both apple and many other manufacturers are now using UEFI10:08
KaishiUEFI would be for the main system firmware, but I'm talking about the graphics unit firmware10:09
joacimthe hackintosh people seems to use their "normal" graphics cards just fine10:09
joacimbut those people also play around a bit with their drivers10:09
Kaishikexts to actually make it work10:09
Kaishiit isn't as stock as it may sound10:10
joacimbut it seems like some cards dont require it, like the ones used by apple.10:10
Kaishiconsider the mac pro10:10
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Kaishiit uses PCIe slots10:10
Kaishiit can take nvidia or AMD gpus10:10
Kaishiit can be setup using consumer or professional gpus10:10
Kaishinormal off-the-shelf gpu doesn't work unless it has custom firmware10:11
Kaishithe actual processor in the mid-grade consumer AMD gpu, versus the high-end GPU, versus the professoinal FireGL card is probably 95% the same, and in some cases it's actually identical10:13
joacimis that knowledge based on recent findings or is this from when apple still made powerpc-based systems?10:13
Kaishithis is recent.10:13
KaishiI can buy a 2012 GPU and put it in a rig from 200510:14
Kaishiit'll boot, drivers will install10:14
Kaishiit'll work10:14
Kaishibut if I put a 2012 GPU in a Mac Pro, it won't work without a custom firmware on that gpu10:14
Kaishieven if the mac pro is the latest version10:14
Kaishiyet the slots have and standards have been roughly the same since 200410:14
Kaishirevision changes but compatibility has been maintained10:15
joacimuhm. OS X is picky about its cards, which card are you talking about?10:15
Kaishipick a top-end model that apple doesn't sell.10:16
joacimi rather pick one that apple supports (through driver support, they dont have to sell it)10:16
Kaishiso until mountain lion, you can't use generic cards, and even then, only with updated UEFI10:17
Kaishisnow leopard will never support generic cards10:17
Kaishigg apple10:17
Kaishiand even then, only with nvidia10:17
joacim10.7 is not mountain lion.10:17
Kaishiyou're right, that's Lion, right?10:18
Kaishi10.8 is mountain lion10:18
joacimthat post only covers nvidia, it doesnt mean that amd cards wont work10:18
joacimapple do use amd for their own systems10:18
KaishiI'm not into apple stuff but until apparently very recently, generic cards simply didn't work.  Maybe they're changing now.10:19
Kaishipost is dated 13 sept10:19
joacimand i'd guess this is due to what drivers come with 10.6 and if nvidia wants to support such an old system.10:19
Kaishihaven't followed that closely10:19
joacimit wouldnt bother me if they didnt support other cards tho. they make their OS for their own hardware.10:22
KaishiI just sorta ignore them.  They are doing the opposite of what I would like10:24
Kaishithey removed the ethernet jacks10:24
KaishiI mean, that's just crazy10:24
joacimonly from their laptops10:24
Kaishidoesn't matter.10:24
Kaishi"professional product" my butt10:25
joacimit does matter =) very few people will hunt for an ethernet cable when they using their laptop10:25
joacimthe only thing that bother me about their laptops is that they no longerh ave replaceable ram and storage10:25
joacimit is all soldered or using some funky proprietary form factor10:26
joacimthis isnt true for their desktop or old non-retina macbook pro tho10:26
KaishiIf I can't disassemble it myself, I don't want it.10:30
Kaishiif I can't repair it myself, I don't want it10:30
joacimwhich is why i dont want any of their new laptops.10:30
Kaishiif I can't upgrade it myself, I don't want it.  There are a few exceptions to this rule10:30
KaishiI don't want any of their products.10:30
joacimgetting the ram i need in 4-6 years time from apple is expensive. they want 2400 NOK for 16 GB, i can get that from any normal components shop for 600 NOK10:31
Kaishitheir prices are ridiculous10:31
joacimit is a shame that upgrades from apple is so expensive.10:31
joacimtheir base models are usually reasonable tho10:31
Kaishibase models aren't sufficient10:31
Kaishi,224,0) <-- my ideal laptop10:32
joacimtheyre sufficient for me today, but i can see that i will probably need more than 4GB of ram in 4-6 years time10:32
Kaishiweight is irrelevant10:32
Kaishibattery life is irrelevant10:34
joacimtoo big for me =)10:34
KaishiI don't carry a computer with me everywhere.  I carry a phone everywhere.  If I need more than a phone, then I bring a laptop, and if I need more than that, I bring a desktop :) I have 2 portable desktops, depending on how much horsepower is justified10:34
joacimmy laptop barely ever leaves my desk10:35
joacimmy next computer will be a desktop10:35
Kaishiexactly why having ethernet is of the utmost importance10:35
joacimnot for a laptop10:35
Kaishiif the system doesn't leave the desk, plug it in10:35
Kaishithere are too many devices on the 2.4 GHz airspace10:35
joacimgetting a laptop that never leaves your desk doesnt make any sense to me10:35
joacimyou can set your wifi to 5GHz =)10:36
Kaishimy laptop stays packed up until I go to use it.  Otherwise I have a desktop for that.  Files are sync'd against my server, accessed via VPN10:36
Kaishi5 GHz will quickly become overpopulated too, and moreover, 5GHz penetration is bad10:36
Kaishiit doesn't traverse walls well10:37
joacimi'll probably get a netbook with a tiling wm as a secondary portable computer. i'll never use it, but i'm guessing it'll be handy for when i need to visit some relative that i dont even want to visit.10:37
joacimwifi works well in my house10:38
Kaishibut you get wifi interference from your neighbors and your neighbors-neighbors10:38
joacimlots of other wireless networks around here too10:38
Kaishibecause everyone is on it10:38
Kaishiso performance suffers10:38
Kaishilots of resent packets10:38
joacimi dont really notice any difference between my wifi and wired connection10:38
Kaishiping something10:39
joacimi can measure a difference, but i dont really feel the difference10:39
Kaishiit should be a 10-30 ms difference10:39
KaishiI can deal with 10ms, but I can't accept an unnecessary 30 ms latency10:39
Kaishijoacim: it really all depends on what you do with your network connection.10:40
joacimi browse and transfer files back and forth between my laptop and desktop10:41
KaishiI do a fair amount of intranet traffic, sometimes tens of gigs at a time10:41
KaishiI often saturate a gig link10:41
Kaishiso 150 mbps just doesn't cut it10:42
joacimand i stream movies from my desktop10:42
joacimit is fast enough for my needs10:42
KaishiDoes anyone else use your network?10:43
joacimso. i dont think a laptop needs ethernet, except for some random guy in a basement (or penthouse)10:43
joacimi dont mind that computers drop interfaces that only really makes sense for only a few people.10:44
joacimi wasnt crying when serial ports, floppy drives and dvd drives disappeared10:44
Kaishiare you suggesting that no one uses ethernet?10:44
joacimwhen those were gone, i didnt really have anything to feed through those interfaces anyways10:45
Kaishiin my environments, no one uses wifi10:45
Kaishiwifi is the "for 10 minutes" interface of choice10:45
joacimi didnt say nobody does. there are just so few of them that making hardware specifically for those people dont make sense anymore10:45
Kaishithat's a disturbing trend, then.10:45
Kaishithere's an awful lot of secured content being distributed over-the-air10:46
joacimthey could save a bit when it comes to the size of the hardware or design of the motherboard by dropping big chunky legacy interfaces like ethernet or vga10:46
Kaishiethernet is the very last one I would change, though.10:46
joacimwifi should be easy to encrypt10:47
Kaishiit's also easy to break the encryption10:47
joacimtoo bad that isnt always the case10:47
joacimand you can easilly find external ethernet adaptors10:48
KaishiI'm not disagreeing with the idea that "if you want to make a smaller system, you have to cut things"10:48
Kaishibut when I see a 15" laptop10:48
KaishiI assume it has room for a decent-sized board with decent components that are modular.10:48
Kaishinot a system that is 75% battery by volume10:48
joacimprobably inconvenient for the 1%, but 99% wouldnt care that some port they never even used got "outsourced" to an adaptor10:48
Kaishi2 USB ports is an insufficient number10:49
joacimi would love that. battery life is awesome =)10:49
joacimdoesnt a single port support 64 devices or something like that?10:49
KaishiI would sooner have 1 hour of battery life but have it change in 2 minutes.10:49
Kaishihubs are big and stupid to carry.10:49
joacimyou have thunderbolt too you know10:49
Kaishithunderbolt is stupid too. if it has a chip in the cable itself, it isn't a cable anymore10:50
Kaishiit's ... stupid10:50
Kaishia good idea, an awful implementation10:50
joacimit looks to me like thunderbolt could replace your normal docking stations10:50
joacimcould connect everything to a single box that you connect to your laptop with a single cable10:50
Kaishidocking stations are also stupid.  The limiting factor in the laptop is the size of the heatsinks, which don't get bigger by docking the silly things10:51
Kaishiso yeah, you get more USB and maybe a parallel port10:51
Kaishibut it still slows down a ton when it gets hot, which it does after 30 minutes of use at the most10:51
joacimand a huge inconvenient slab and ugly slab for your desk10:52
Kaishiwhat people really want is a desktop and a laptop, but a single shared instance of their user profile that is consistent across both10:53
Kaishibut they don't know how to get there10:53
Kaishilaptops are poor substitutes for desktops, even in the best cases10:53
joacimbut it is convinent because you can have your switch-based keyboard and display and all your external drives and printers connected to your docking station. that way you dont have to connect several different cables to your laptop when you reach your desk10:53
joacimfrom a performance standpoint, laptops have been able to replace desktops for years.10:54
Kaishiif connecting a few cables is too much of a hassle for a person, that person needs to get their priorities straight10:54
Kaishiwhoa whoa whoa10:54
Kaishithat could not be further from the truth10:54
joacimlaptops are fine when a 6 year old desktop still can play your 1080p videos and run your ms word at the same time10:55
Kaishiyou're talking about functional equivalence based on usage patterns10:55
Kaishibut that's not "from a performance standpoint" by any measure10:55
joacimnot everyone plays the witcher 2.10:55
Kaishidisk access time in a laptop is way worse10:55
Kaishi"everyone" doesn't matter for performance.10:56
Kaishi"everyone" = ford taurus10:56
Kaishi"performance" = nascar10:56
Kaishior f110:56
joacimbeing worse is not the same as being too slow. it is slower than a desktop, but it isnt too slow for normal desktop tasks10:56
joacimit wouldnt even feel slow10:56
Kaishiif you do 1 task at a time then sure10:57
Kaishibut I don't use a laptop as a DVD player, yet lots of people do10:57
joacim <- this is how i multitask10:57
joacimsometimes i have mplayer running too. and it handles it just fine10:57
joacimthis is a low end macbook from 200810:58
joacimrandom C2D and an intel X3100 chip.10:58
joacimall it needs is some more ram (i'm maxed out at 4GB) and an ssd10:59
Kaishidifferent workflows for different folks10:59
KaishiI won't be buying an ethernet-less system in the near future, that's for certain.11:00
joacimmy laptop would be no good for the wither 2, but it is more than enough for some random 1080p video and some browsing.11:00
Kaishibut random 1080p and browsing is maybe 1-5% of what I do.11:00
joacimi dont know how it would handle those fancy 10-bit 1080p videos tho. it can handle 720p just fine tho.11:00
Kaishimy point, to bring this full-circle11:00
Kaishiis that people are doing more and more of that, basic stuff.  Run everything in a browser11:01
joacimi'm not telling you what you should want. i'm just saying that not everything is a bad move11:01
Kaishiand I don't agree with it...11:01
Kaishiright on, no criticism from me either :)11:01
joacimthere will probably be someone out there who is willing to make the 1% laptop. but right now, apple isnt one of them =)11:02
Kaishieurocom makes them <311:02
Kaishialso, they fully disassemble11:02
Kaishiyou can get it all apart and clean it11:02
Kaishiand upgrade it11:02
joacimsounds like an old thinkpad =)11:02
Kaishithe whole bottom comes off11:02
joacimthere is one thing i hate about these new apple keyboards11:03
Kaishifans are user replaceable11:03
joacimyou cant dismantle them11:03
Kaishiif I can't disassemble it, I don't want it :)11:03
Kaishicherry MX please11:03
KaishiI want a laptop with mechanical switches11:03
joacimi had my logitech keyboard cleaned by removing 20 (!) screws to get the top layer off so that i could clean it with a brush and water =)11:03
KaishiI don't care if it's 2 inches thick11:03
KaishiI know what I want >_<11:03
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joacimfour of the screws were even hidden11:04
Kaishi20 screws is a ton, jeez.11:04
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joacimit took forever for me to figure out where those were hidden11:04
joacimtwo under the rubber feet, and two under some random keys11:04
rmullMechanical keyswitches on a laptop?11:05
joacimi'll probably get a mac mini as my next computer, and put my own ssd and cheap 16GB ram modules in there.11:05
Kaishirmull: yes, I'd like to see a laptop engineered with mechanical switches11:06
Kaishithere are lower-profile switch options than fullsize cherry mx11:07
joacimit is annoying enough that students get laptops with horrible fan noise, i'd go crazy if one of them also had mechanical switches11:07
Kaishiand they would have a bit less durability but still11:07
Kaishithere are silent mechanical switches.11:07
Kaishithe biggest thing is having people learn not to bottom-out while typing.11:07
Kaishiif you bottom out all the time then it's a lot louder than it needs to be.11:08
Kaishibut the loud keyboards *feel* the best <311:08
Kaishijust not for anyone else in the room11:08
jaegersome people like keyboards specifically because they're loud, heh11:08
Kaishiwhen it's just you typing, like actually writing something11:09
Kaishia loud crisp keyboard is... kinda zen11:09
Kaishiany time you kinda lose yourself in what you're doing, because you're so relaxed and comfortable with it, I see that as a good thing.  If that's cooking, or typing, swimming or target shooting, it's good for a person.11:10
jaegerI prefer quiet ones, myself11:11
joacimeven tho this mac keyboard is a pain to clean, it is quiet at least =)11:12
joacimand i think it feels nice to type on11:12
Kaishi<tangent>where do I configure which server for ntpd to check?11:12
joacimisnt it /etc/ntp/ntp.conf?11:12
KaishiI'll check there now11:13
Kaishio wow11:14
Kaishithis is kinda involved11:14
jaegerIf you want a simpler configuration try openntpd instead of ntp11:16
Kaishinah, this is fine11:16
KaishiI can deal with it11:16
KaishiI'm just trying to make this system be an ntp client.  I already have an intranet openntpd instance11:17
KaishiI don't suppose there is any way to make the system actually use the ntp server listed in DHCP11:19
Kaishisince there's an option for that, and we keep it configured on the off-chance something can use it11:19
Kaishihave to step out for a while, will resume learning later :)11:21
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cruxbot[opt.git/2.8]: [notify] masqmail: update to 0.3.411:36
lennartsteam starts -- it seems it depends on pulseaudio :(12:05
jaeger@seen rotwang12:05
clbjaeger: rotwang was last seen in #crux 1 day, 3 hours, and 25 seconds ago: <Rotwang>
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jaegerRotwang: don't know what changed but that pidgin issue with setting status via dropdown is gone for me now12:51
jaegerI wonder if maybe it's a theme issue12:51
Rotwangit is good that it is gone12:52
Rotwangit is not good that we don't really know why [;12:52
jaegerindeed, heh12:52
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Rotwangis there any netapp related channel somewhere?12:59
jaegerno idea here, sorry12:59
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Rotwangfound one, not many people though13:08
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niklasweurk ugly to use ndiswrapper..13:19
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tilmanRotwang: do all files on that server have a name that begins with 'funny-'?13:28
Rotwanghaha, I guess so13:28
Kaishiguys, working on my ntp client config, since I'm running OpenNTPd on another system, should I just sync my CRUX system to that? Alternatively, I could include additional servers as a fallback (but prefer the local one)13:30
KaishiI don't need to be that accuracte13:30
Kaishi<tangent>ghostpepper sauce on pepperoni pizza is awesome</tangent>13:32
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KaishiI've got the server list set just to my intranet OpenNTPd host13:42
Kaishibut now I'm working on the acls13:42
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niklaswewb Kaishi13:58
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mastishello, i would like to ask is radeon cards working well on crux?14:08
mastisi would like to use the ati proprietary drivers14:10
mastisfor example those drivers are a big mess in debian14:10
jaegermastis: I only have nvidia hardware so I can't say for sure but it seems like the xorg ati driver works pretty well if your card is supported. no idea about fglrx, though, if that's even what it's called these days14:11
mastisit is fglrx14:13
mastisthanks, i stay and lurk14:13
jaegerA quick look at the portdb didn't turn up an fglrx port for me, for what that's worth14:13
joacimi looked at that last night, and all i could find were some firmware package (radeon-ucode)14:18
jaegerxorg-xf86-video-ati is likely what most are using, I think14:19
jaegerwhen I had crux on my work laptop I used it, worked quite well... but I no longer do14:19
mastisthat might work for me14:20
mastisbasically i need youtube + minecraft14:20
jaegerIt should handle those fine, I think, if your chipset is one of the supported ones14:21
mastisi have to check it out14:21
mastisthose drivers support my card14:23
mastisi can use the xorg-xf86-video-ati driver14:25
mastiswell i go to read the handbook and then to sleep, see you tomorrow and thanks for the help14:28
jaegerno problem, take care14:28
niklaswejaeger: whats happening ? :P14:31
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jaegerniklaswe: helping a friend fix a server at the moment14:32
niklasweah, with crux or..14:33
jaegerit's ubuntu server14:34
jaegerit ran out of space in /boot while doing an upgrade14:34
niklasweah I see :)14:35
tilmanmy guruplug was at 100% of / recently14:36
tilmanthankfully it survived :D14:36
tilmandeleted crap quickly in sliht panic ;)14:36
mastisone more question before bed, is crux going to use systemd in future? (i hope not)15:00
jaegerwe'd like to avoid it15:01
rmullprepare to be assimilated15:01
mastiscrux look promising, i will give it a try at weekend15:04
mastisgood night15:05
guzzanosomebody installed mate in crux?15:08
jaegerguzzano: yes15:09
guzzanomy compiler say: "gudev no found1-0", udev == gudev?15:13
jaegerguzzano: did you read the guide at ?15:14
jaegerthe 'udev' port in the mate repository replaces the one in core15:14
guzzanoyes, complete, i installed with prt-get depinst mate --install..15:15
guzzanoi installed udev, uhm... who is mate manteiner?15:16
jaegerdid you install udev from core or from mate?15:16
jaegerthe difference is important, like the guide says15:16
guzzanofrom core, with prt-get quickdiff (port mate)... not working15:17
jaegeryou need the one from mate, not core15:17
jaegerthe guide says to list the mate ports before the others in prt-get.conf for this reason15:18
guzzanoyes... i have port mate in prt-get, and compile from mate port and ==15:19
guzzanosorry for ==, my english is bad haha15:19
jaegeris "prtdir /usr/ports/mate" the *first* prtdir line in /etc/prt-get.conf?15:19
guzzanofcking google traslator, not! put prtdir the firts? ; ports -u and make again?15:22
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jaegermake "prtdir /usr/ports/mate" come before other prtdir lines, then prt-get update udev15:23
guzzanoputs my hostname with "jaeger" ahahahhaa, very thanks! :)15:24
jaegerI don't understand what you mean but here's a tip:15:25
jaeger$ prt-get path udev15:25
guzzanothanks jaeger, i'm compiling again15:29
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joacimi sometimes wonder what drives a man to willingly deal with customer service on his spare time.15:59
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jaegerfirst -updated 2.8 ISO has been uploaded19:42
Romsternot that many changes since 2.8 was out19:44
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guzzanomate is very unestable20:05
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guzzanoalternative firefox in ports?21:46
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jaegeralternative in what way?22:08
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