IRC Logs for #crux Thursday, 2012-12-13

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Sleepy_CoderSo I am new to CRUX.00:42
Sleepy_CoderI've had my fill of source-based and binary-distributed distros00:43
Sleepy_CoderCan CRUX do both? :>00:43
Sleepy_CoderIs there something similar to pkg_add for CRUX with binary mirrors for those who might not want to compile every last thing? :>00:43
nogagplzpotentially00:44
Sleepy_CoderI know this is probably annoying to hear from an outsider, but when about might CRUX primarily target x86_64?  I know there are some unofficial images maintained for that arch but i686 is currently the only officially supported one... that I know of :>00:44
nogagplz3 is supposed to be x86_64 by default last I heard00:45
* Sleepy_Coder gleegasms00:45
Sleepy_CoderI'm trying to break my dependency on Arch now that they've become more in love with systemd's crowd. >00:45
Sleepy_CoderI had hoped to make CRUX my favorite a long while back but I've just never taken the time to jump00:46
Sleepy_CoderI mean I still have flashbacks to Gentoo and Exherbo in their early days when it took all night to build glibc, gcc, firefox, ...00:46
Sleepy_CoderBut processors are so speedy now, I doubt it would be as painful. :(00:46
nogagplzthere's nothing wrong with arch though, don't like systemd? there's still sysvinit runit etc in the aur and core00:46
Sleepy_CoderFrom what I had read, they are expecting to remove initscripts for those who dwell in Jan. 201300:47
Sleepy_CoderDon't get me wrong, systemd is a lovely piece of software, it just makes me nervous having an init depend on pthreads and dbus00:47
nogagplzthat's ok, you could pretty easily take a snapshot from abs and keep that part going yourself00:47
nogagplzor somebody else might even do that and stick it in aur00:47
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Sleepy_CoderThat is a possibility, yes. :>00:47
Sleepy_CoderHadn't considered that..00:47
Sleepy_CoderOh well, I'm still going to give CRUX a try :)00:48
nogagplzthat's cool, just so long as you know the odds of there being binary packages available instead of just rolling your own are slim00:49
Sleepy_CoderI understand :)00:49
Sleepy_CoderI mean this sounds so ricer but I bought an AMD Bulldozer proc at the beginning of this year and with Arch's x86-only optimisations I know I'm not getting my money's worth.00:49
Sleepy_CoderWas really a waste of money >.<00:50
Sleepy_CoderI always forget that the latest instructions available on current processors probably won't be made use of until they become part of the standard in a year or twos' time.  I'm like, "ooh shiney" and I just buy it anyway to later regret >.<00:51
Sleepy_Coderclock speed and number of cores is nice though.00:51
Sleepy_Coder</blahblahblah>00:51
nogagplzbulldozer tanked pretty hard though00:52
Sleepy_Coderdefinitely00:52
Sleepy_CoderIt was barely a difference over the 1st-gen Core i5 I replaced.00:52
Sleepy_CoderDefinitely saw a different in multithreading stuff, but argh I wasted $400 T.T00:52
Sleepy_CoderAt least I finally got a board supporting SATA 3.000:53
Sleepy_CoderThe P55 chipset in the board I was using for the i5 was pretending it had the bandwidth :p00:53
Sleepy_CoderI really want to see Intel support their Intel Quick Sync Video for the later procs... the Intel HD 3000/4000 stuf00:54
Sleepy_Coder+f00:54
nogagplzwhat's the intel hd stuff like, my cpu has support but I've never bothered using it for anything00:54
Sleepy_CoderI've lately been ripping all my DVDs to digital copies for better keeping (and finding) and I know I would have a much quicker time doing so if I were running Windows with something Intel under the hood :(00:54
Sleepy_CoderOh I have an Nvidia GTX 460, I'm envious of the builtin Intel HD 4000 processors though00:55
nogagplzah ok00:55
Sleepy_Coderperformance just good enough to play games I already play obsessively... (L4D2 and TF2)00:55
Sleepy_CoderSee, now that processors and integrated graphics cards are already so fast, I've cared less and less about performance and more about power usage.00:56
Sleepy_CoderAt one time I used to burn through 520W+ an hour :(00:56
Sleepy_CoderI'm down to ~120W now but eventually I want to move to an i7 laptop and put that lower.00:56
Sleepy_CoderThat is ~120W total with 2 x 22" monitors @ 1680x105000:56
Sleepy_CoderI'd love it if I could get it to the point where I can power a laptop with maybe one or two solar panels on the roof.00:57
Sleepy_CoderBig dreams anyway. :]00:58
Sleepy_CoderTruth be told I had kind of hoped to "get by" on Arch until Feb/Mar of next year after Intel releases the Haswell processors and then make the big jump to a nice low-power laptop sporting CRUX :301:00
Sleepy_CoderMy setup as of now is incredibly messy >.<01:00
nogagplzcrux does need some patience if it's your first time, lots of stuff you can miss on the first play through01:01
nogagplzand how is it messy01:01
Sleepy_CoderI remember I used to mess up very easily on a beginning Gentoo install. :-)  A lot of things have changed since then but I've gotten marginally better at making mistakes that I can correct from :p01:02
Sleepy_CoderAs opposed to doing something that is irreversible :<01:03
Sleepy_CoderKind of can't believe they axed 386: http://lkml.indiana.edu/hypermail/linux/kernel/1212.1/01152.html01:04
Sleepy_CoderI'm no assembly person, but I wonder what sort of complexity possibly could have warranted that removal :(01:05
nogagplzit is sad yes, but who even uses 386s anymore01:06
nogagplzbesides maybe the odd embedded device01:06
Sleepy_CoderThat's totally my dev machine.01:12
Sleepy_Coder:}01:12
nogagplzultra lies01:14
Sleepy_Coderit's like blazing fast, duuuuude01:15
Sleepy_CoderThe only thing I really miss from my 386 days is the lack of a fan and heatsink.01:15
Sleepy_Coder(I think)01:15
Sleepy_CoderPretty sure there wasn't even a heatsink..01:15
nogagplzI went for years thinking mine was an intel 386, but when I finally actually read the IC it was by amd lol01:15
Sleepy_Coderhaha01:16
nogagplzno heatsink01:16
Sleepy_CoderI'm hoping that sometime around 2016 we'll have highly performant ultrabooks that need no preventative cooling measures.01:16
Sleepy_CoderI mean power usage is going down..01:16
Sleepy_CoderI also want to see solar panels embedded in the backside of laptop screens.01:16
Sleepy_CoderWouldn't be able to completely charge a laptop, but a little trickling something is still something.01:17
Sleepy_CoderI can't imagine it would be done because of cost :(01:17
nogagplzsave the resources and energy for a dyson sphere instead01:17
nogagplzevery little bit helps01:17
Sleepy_CoderEven if it were used to just supplement the power of the wifi adapter, it would still be cool.01:17
Sleepy_Coderhahaha01:17
Sleepy_CoderI first heard about a dyson sphere when reading the Halo book series01:18
joacimthe cpus' tdp is linked to power usage, right?01:18
Sleepy_CoderYes01:18
joacimi think the old ones like pentiums had a much lower tdp than current ones01:19
Sleepy_CoderLike the TDP of my current AMD Bulldozer proc is like 125W max01:19
joacimnow 65W is the norm, back then it was in the tens01:19
Sleepy_Coder65W is at the high end of laptops now01:19
Sleepy_Coder:D01:19
Sleepy_CoderLittle Intel Atom netbooks try for 25W max01:19
joacimmy 166MHz Pentium is at 14.5 W according to the guy who wrote the wikipedia article01:20
Sleepy_CoderAnd then the performance processors Intel wants to put out next year are trying to make 90W the TDP for the enthusiast models (afaik)01:20
joacimhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_CPU_power_dissipation_figures01:20
Sleepy_Coderyeah... it was a grand time :(01:20
joacimthere are desktop cpus that go lower than 65W (intel makes versions that go as low as 35W), but those seems to be hard to find in norwegian components stores01:20
Sleepy_CoderI mean, that's still not accounting for the motherboard or wifi adapter or dvd drive or screen or ..., but the processor tdp is usually what I look at first01:21
joacimi remember the heatsink for my original pentiums. it was just a small passive heat sink01:21
Sleepy_CoderThere was an AMD 4-core proc a while ago that could stay under 45W01:21
Sleepy_Coderthey release those models with an 'e' after the number for environmentally friendly I think01:21
Sleepy_Coderhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_CPU_power_dissipation_figures#Intel_Core_i7_2  oh wow01:22
Sleepy_Coderit's better than I thought01:22
joacimintel has a few select i3s and i5s that go down to 35W, their low powered desktop grade i7 goes down to 45W01:22
joacimi think01:22
Sleepy_Coder17W i7's there01:22
joacimyou're probably looking at the laptop chips01:23
Sleepy_CoderYou know if you take out the battery on most laptops it'll last the max power draw most of the time.  like 55kWh01:23
Sleepy_CoderSO you figure the max draw of the system is 55W or lower01:23
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Sleepy_Coderyeah, those were the mobile procs01:23
joacimi think one of the macbook pros from last year had a power supply (or charger) that was too weak to charge the batteries while the system was at max draw01:24
Sleepy_CoderI always feel like the best "size" for a laptop is usually the 15" models.  Enough chassis room for a 7-11 hour battery even with a high-end processor.01:25
Sleepy_Coderoh lol01:25
Sleepy_CoderWhen the Macbook Pro Retina came out I was trying desperately to budget so I could pick one up in 2013.01:25
Sleepy_CoderI'm so happy that screens of that resolution and pixel density are going to become the norm.01:25
Sleepy_CoderSamsung looks to be trying to put out some Series 9 ultrabooks at a 13" size with a relatively equal resolution01:26
Sleepy_Coderhttp://gizmodo.com/5939628/samsungs-crazy-qhd-series-9-ultrabook-cant-get-here-fast-enough  They showed off that one a few months ago01:26
Sleepy_CoderI imagine Apple made some deal with them to hold off on retina-like ultrabooks for a while :\01:26
Sleepy_CoderNext year is going to be interest, I just know it XD01:26
joacimi saw some that was released before apple released theirs01:26
Sleepy_Coderorly :o01:26
joacimbu they had problems because the software wasnt adapted for the new high resolutions01:27
joacimso a lot of things on screen wasnt scaled correctly or was really tiny01:27
Sleepy_CoderI think Apple kind of ruined it for what I wanted.  Images that aren't icons for apps are still at their native size, but they blow up the size of text and the GUI way too far with that much "real estate" to work with01:27
joacimsomething to do with windows01:27
Sleepy_CoderI didn't want extremely high resolution and scaled up GUIs, I wanted room to have 3 windows almost side by side to do my work :(  The multi-monitor experience on one high-resolution screen01:28
joacimyou can configure how big or small you want things to be yourself01:28
joacimto a certain degree01:28
Sleepy_CoderYou can use Quartz Debug on Mac OS X to adjust the font DPI...01:28
Sleepy_CoderAnd then there are a number of utilities out there to set the overall scaling to the native screen res01:29
Sleepy_Coderinstead of trying to emulate the pixel density of a 1920x1200 display @ 15", it'll do the full 2880x1800 @ 15"01:29
Sleepy_CoderI mean, my eyesight is good but that does hurt after a while trying to view things at native res01:29
joacimthis thing that i'm talking about is in the system preferences panel01:29
Sleepy_CoderYou definitely have to bump up the font dpi and that's great, but the rest is a little too small.01:29
Sleepy_Coderoh01:29
Sleepy_CoderWhat I really worry about is Apple is kind of trying to set the standard for high resolution screens with their ridiculously expensive tech.  If Samsung ever does start putting out similar retina displays (since they make Apple's displays) I hope they won't put the pixel density too high :(  Apple's Macbook Pro Retina has a pixel density of 225 from what I read on that article...  200ppi would be perfect for me.01:31
Sleepy_CoderI just don't want all the laptop makers thinking we should have pixel densities so high we have to scale GUIs to something more user-friendly01:31
Sleepy_CoderAll we wanted was a big of a jump in resolution01:31
Sleepy_CoderDoes that make sense? :x01:31
Sleepy_Codera bit of a jump*01:31
joacimhttp://ark.intel.com/products/65703 <- here is the cpu i was talking about01:31
joacimtheir quads are at 45W01:32
joacimi saw someone who bought an i3 like that one, he was able to cool his cpu with a passive heat sink01:32
Sleepy_Coder:D01:32
Sleepy_CoderI do hate even the faintest of fans for ruining my calm :p01:32
Sleepy_CoderWhich is funny because I always have headphones on.01:33
joacimmy midrange graphics card from 2003 had a small aluminium block cooling the gpu. these new ones have huge dual fan configurations01:33
joacimsingle graphics cards that take up two slots on your motherboard01:34
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Sleepy_Coderyeah :(02:19
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frinnstwow, microsofts volume licensing portal is slooooooow03:09
frinnstwaiting for ajax.microsoft.com...03:10
frinnsttakes 20secs for a page to load03:13
joacimajax. been a while since i've seen that buzzword.03:15
joacimand i've noticed that buzzword has become a buzzword.03:15
frinnstWe apologize but the site has encountered an error. Please contact support.03:16
frinnstFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU03:16
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Amnesia_hm03:45
Amnesia_dwm's multi monitor support works pretty neat03:45
Amnesia_wouldn't have thought that it was this easy to set up03:46
frinnstxinerama works nice03:48
Amnesia_yeah04:01
Amnesia_always thought it was a pita to configure04:06
Amnesia_some xrandr magic and I'm done><04:06
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cruxbot[opt.git/2.8]: jdk: updated to 1.7.0_1006:45
cruxbot[xfce.git/2.8]: exo: updated to 0.10.106:45
cruxbot[xfce.git/2.8]: tumbler: updated to 0.1.2606:45
cruxbot[xfce.git/2.8]: thunar: updated to 1.6.1 and added tumbler as dep06:45
cruxbot[contrib.git/2.8]: iasl: updated to 2012111406:46
cruxbot[contrib.git/2.8]: p5-extutils-depends: fixed footprint for perl 5.1606:46
cruxbot[contrib.git/2.8]: p5-extutils-depends: changed url source06:46
cruxbot[contrib.git/2.8]: p5-extutils-pkgconfig: fixed footprint for perl 5.1606:46
cruxbot[contrib.git/2.8]: p5-digest-sha1: fixed footprint for perl 5.16 and cleanup06:46
cruxbot[contrib.git/2.8]: p5-glib: updated to 1.28006:46
cruxbot[contrib.git/2.8]: p5-cairo: updated to 1.10206:46
cruxbot[contrib.git/2.8]: p5-pango: fixed footprint for perl 5.1606:46
cruxbot[contrib.git/2.8]: p5-gtk2: updated to 1.24606:46
cruxbot[contrib.git/2.8]: subversion-perl: fixed footprint for perl 5.1606:46
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cruxbot[opt.git/2.8]: sqlite3: update to 3.7.1510:16
cruxbot[opt.git/2.8]: unbound: update to 1.4.1910:16
cruxbot[contrib.git/2.8]: gajim: update to 0.15.210:40
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cruxbot[core.git/2.8]: bison: update to 2.710:47
cruxbot[core.git/2.8]: iproute2: update to 3.7.010:47
cruxbot[core.git/2.8]: util-linux: update to 2.22.210:47
cruxbot[core.git/2.8]: xfsprogs: update to 3.1.910:47
cruxbot[contrib.git/2.8]: nmap: 6.01 -> 6.2510:54
cruxbot[contrib.git/2.8]: claws-mail: update to 3.9.010:58
cruxbot[contrib.git/2.8]: claws-mail-themes: update to 2012012910:58
teK_horrorStruck10:58
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Amnesia_woot11:19
Amnesia_received my rpi11:19
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horrorStruckteK_: yep11:31
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teK_thanks for the heads up again and: did you test the updated libnet?11:44
horrorStruckteK_: you're most welcome. i installed latest libnet when i switched to x86_64 recently11:53
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horrorStruckteK_: i needed it for ettercap only which i haven't really used lately TBH11:57
cruxbot[contrib.git/2.8]: libnet: 1.1.2.1 -> 1.1.611:58
cruxbot[core.git/2.8]: xfsprogs: new source tarball12:04
cruxbot[opt.git/2.8]: w3m: fix build12:11
krueIs it possible to upgrade to 2.8 "in place"? I had trouble booting the 2.7 multilib installer on my motherboard, and I'm suspecting the same thing will happen with 2.8.12:11
frinnstyeah but it can be painful.12:12
frinnstwhat boot issues did you encounter?12:13
frinnstprobably easier to fix those :)12:13
jaegerI always prefer to fix those types of things when possible12:14
krueI don't have an optical drive on this machine, and copying the iso to a usb key wouldn't boot on my efi board.12:14
jaegerAh12:14
jaegerisohybrid doesn't work with EFI12:14
jaegerShould be possible to create a USB image that can boot EFI but I've not tried that yet12:15
joacim how about bios emulation. i understand that some efi-based system have that12:16
frinnstmost do i think. only macs lack it?12:17
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krueThere is an option related to that, but I've tried turning it on and off with the same results.12:18
krueI admit that I haven't actually _tried_ to update this machine to 2.8 yet. I just suspected that I'd run into the same problem, and wanted to know if there was another way.12:20
joacimfrinnst: macs used to in the past. i dont know if they have that these days tho12:20
krueI can try it tonight after work and give some more details.12:20
joacimi used to boot various distributions of linux and windows on my mac through this bios emulation12:21
joacimit worked fine, except for the mess caused by trying to maintain both gpt and mbr on the same drive12:22
frinnsti remember linus saying how braindead it was by apple to not support it12:22
joacimyou could easilly install winxp on this thing12:22
joacimand i dont think ms supported efi until vista or 712:22
joacimofficial support for xp sp2, but you could install the original retail release12:23
joacimi do remember linus having some opinion on the new intel macs, but i forgot what his complaint was12:24
Amnesiapitillo: you maintained crux-arm right?12:25
krueanother option: I have a second drive that I periodically rsync to. Maybe I could boot that one and update the first drive.12:26
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pitilloAmnesia: right13:26
Amnesiapitillo: running it on a rpi by any chance?13:37
pitilloAmnesia: sure, since 2.7 and currently 2.8 is on development13:41
Amnesianeat13:41
Amnesiahad any luck using crux on a media center base?13:42
Amnesiausing mplayer for example13:42
pitillothat depends on video drivers... with closed ones on the smarttop playing movings is great... on the rpi I've tested less and without touching mem options13:43
Amnesiawhat's smarttop if I may ask?13:45
pitilloanother device13:48
Amnesiaah ok13:49
Amnesiacompiling mplayer for example on it is a bitch though I guess:p13:50
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pitillocompiling firefox or qt4 is worse :)13:55
Amnesiatrue that13:55
Amnesiathink it'd be faster to do that using qemu..13:55
Amnesiado you have a dd image by any chanceXD?13:56
pitilloI don't think so, but it's worth a try13:57
Amnesiahm13:58
Amnesiawondering whether it's worth to run crux on a rpi:)13:58
pitillo:)13:59
Amnesiawhat're you motivations?13:59
pitilloAmnesia: learning, as using CRUX :)14:08
Amnesiahm good one:)14:08
AmnesiaI'll also give it a shot14:09
pitillo:)14:09
Amnesiahow many hours did the compilation of FF take><?14:11
teK_I recently discovered that you can get a mini-ATX or *itx Board foer 30 bucks  so I hope find the time to install xmbc (from CRUX) on in some time next year14:13
AmnesiateK_: yeah theyr14:14
Amnesia'they're also neat14:14
AmnesiaI think the broadcom chipset in the rpi is going to be quite a pita..14:15
jaegerAmnesia: it takes a couple days for the rpi to compile gcc, for reference14:16
Amnesiajesus christ14:16
tilmancrosscompilers exist ;)14:16
Amnesiahm good one, hadn't though of that yet14:17
Amnesiathought*14:18
tilmani only build small ports on my guruplug :)14:18
teK_does it exceed the power of a AMD K6-300? :>14:19
teK_horrorStruck: now delete your subproject already!!1114:19
tilmanteK_: probably not14:19
teK_omg ;)14:19
tilmani dont really know tho14:19
teK_I can't remember its bogomips14:20
tilmani remember building 2.0 kernels in 99 on a pentium w/ 233 mhz14:20
teK_if that has to say anything at all14:20
tilmantook about 2 hours14:20
teK_now it's more like two minutes. funny14:20
teK_and about 2-3 times in size14:21
tilmanyeah14:21
Amnesiahm14:21
AmnesiaI still need to reconfigure my kernel..14:21
teK_AMD K6-2/300            399.9514:21
AmnesiateK_: 2-3 minutes is with what cpu?14:21
teK_i7-2600K compiled in RAM14:22
Amnesiaah14:22
Amnesianeat14:22
teK_indeed14:22
Amnesiai5-2500K <-14:23
Amnesiathink it takes about 4 minutes14:23
teK_depends on your config I have almost no redundant driver support and not much other things like routing etc. configured14:23
teK_speaking of small devices.. I gotta get one of these: http://pauldotcom.com/2012/12/tech-segment-minipwner-tp-link.html14:25
teK_for reasons.14:25
Amnesianeither do I14:27
pitillojajaja good times... it took a lot to build the compiler on a 133Mhz (32MB) ... quite more than a kernel14:30
teK_thank god there was no chromium/webkit or qt4 back then14:32
teK_but I heard webkit was fixed to be buildable in parallel14:32
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Amnesiadafuq, never saw systemd before15:19
Amnesiait sucks donkeyballs o015:19
teK_lol15:19
joacimcrux is using system d now?15:22
teK_lol15:22
Amnesianah15:24
Amnesiarunning arch currently15:24
Amnesiahttp://bvanderveen.com/a/rpi-booted-static-ip-ssh/15:28
Amnesiathat's just stupid..15:28
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guzzanoHi, prt-get where save list of the installed packages? (not package, db)20:08
guzzanooh, i have the answer /var/lib/pkg/db, sorry20:12
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