IRC Logs for #crux Wednesday, 2013-06-26

diversenot everyone has internet either.00:00
meisternuPlus, $100 more for their piece of crap, no thanks.00:00
joacim"An internet connection will not be required to play offline Xbox One games"00:00
diversemeisternu: yeah that is also amusing, while the ps4 is $100 less, its also has the better specs!00:01
joacimPS4 + Eye toy (forgot what the name was) is actually priced about the same as an xbox one =)00:02
meisternuYea, and the sad part is I bet more people will buy their beloved Xbox. When I called gamestop, they had 4 ps4 orders left, and one Xbox one. *shakes head*00:02
diverseWell, let the fanboys falter.00:04
diversemore ps4 for us!00:05
meisternuHere Here! Now lets hope Bethesda learns their lesson and stop putting out shit versions for the Playstation of their games.00:05
joacimWhat I find interesting is that after MS removed the requirements for online or the restrictions for used games, a few people have come out supporting the daily checkins and the family sharing that came with it.00:07
joacimthey see it as going to a friends house but they dont need to bring the disk. they can access it from their own account.00:08
joacimnow they have to bring their whole disk to their friends house, and they have to play with the disk in the system00:09
diverseWhen did they started removing those restrictions?00:13
jaegersame day they announced them00:13
joacimlast week i think00:13
jaegeror the day after... it was ridiculously quick00:13
joacimit should be on the forbes article i linked00:13
diverseOkay, so they removed the used games restriction on game disks, but you can't share your digital copies with your friends.00:28
diverseThat to me seems like a semi-good trade off, but none the less, gives users less power since some do want to share via internet.00:31
diverseThe users wanting the daily checkins back are stupid.00:32
diversemeisternu: looks like Microsoft is not as stupid as we thought. They saw what was coming to them! rofl00:34
joacimi think the scenario would've been very different if sony chose to announce a system similar to the one xbox one could've had.00:36
diverseYou can see Sony is trying to get their act together since they are trying hard to treat their user base good this time with the ps4. Despite that, you would be right, if Sony wasn't as caring, the next gen of consoles would have suck terribly.00:44
diverseits all about the competition00:47
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diversejoacim: thanks for the new info.01:01
joacimno problem. i should've gone to bed, but i decided i should correct people on the internet instead.01:08
diverseerr, correcting is not the right term. I was updated since technically I was right a couple weeks ago when they made that decision. It was only until recently they made changes that I had outdated info.01:38
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cruxbot[compat-32.git/3.0]: gdk-pixbuf-32: 2.28.1 -> 2.28.202:34
cruxbot[compat-32.git/3.0]: cairo-32: enable cairo-tee02:34
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drayevargteK_: i'm not so sure anymore, this was based on the qemu-kvm pkgfile, when i added those options to the current, regular qemu it didn't change the .footprint at all... i think the problem is that qemu defaults to sdl audio which won't let you share channels, i need to test it some more06:03
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diversedrayevarg: still having problems with qemu?08:16
drayevargnot with audio, but i can't connect to windows update.. yet browsing the web is fine08:17
drayevargi just want to play these crappy japanese visual novels08:17
diversewhich ones?08:17
drayevargat the moment it's called One08:17
drayevargi didn't finish Remember11, but that won't work with qemu due to lack of 3d acceleration08:18
drayevargwould have to get virtualbox for that08:18
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Romsterdrayevarg, haven't you sorted out your MTU issues yet?08:31
drayevargi think they're unrelated problems08:32
Romstersend ping packets of various different sizes to various sites that work and don't work. check the results.08:32
Romstercheck with mtr for packet loss to a site too.08:32
Romsterprt-get depinst mtr08:32
Romsterreally handy tool.08:32
drayevargi would have to turn off dhcp on my router to change the MTU08:33
drayevargi think * blocks pings anyway ;) but mtr --report -c 1 <various sites> always showed 0% loss08:48
drayevargbut you must be right about the MTU because 5 minutes ago i couldn't ping and then i tried the clamp-mss-to-pmtu iptables rule and it worked08:58
drayevargwith mtr it's 5 packets transmitted with 100% packet loss but the traceroute worked08:59
Romsteryeah MS blocks pings.09:01
Romsteryou may be looking at the LAN DHCP MTU side when you should look at the WAN side for some MTU setting.09:02
linXeahi Romster o/09:03
linXeaI was in Bendigo a few days ago :)09:03
Romsterwhat sort of conectin to the isp do you have? DSL cable, satellite? do you even know what encapsulation it uses?09:03
Romsterhey linXea09:03
Romsteryou picked a cold time to visit victoria.09:03
linXeayea I guess.. but I like it. Feel like home with these frosty mornings.09:04
drayevargRomster: it's cable and no, no idea about that.. we're behind a NAT, i guess that's normal09:09
drayevargthe only MTU setting i see any where is under 'Static IP Settings'09:10
Romsterwhat provider?09:11
drayevargbrighthouse/roadrunner..  -- i just noticed there's some things enabled in the firewall settings:ip sec passthrough, pptp passthrough, L2TP passthrough09:12
Romsterhere's an idea... how old is that modem when did this start happening?09:18
Romsterif old and recently. i'd make sure you know your user/pass and settings and reset the router and reprogram it.09:18
Romsterstill trying to find what protocol it encapsulates09:19
Romstervisitor bbs09:19
drayevargit's been problematic since we got it about a year ago, we moved a few months ago and the problems decreased inexplicably09:22
drayevargmoved about 30 minutes away09:23
drayevargi can probably call them tomorrow and get a replacement09:24
drayevargthere's a tab called HSD in the router settings interface and it shows upstream downstream rates, there's one interesting thing:09:24
drayevargMTA PassWithWarnings Up09:25
drayevargdunno what that means09:25
drayevargbrb, i'll reset it09:30
drayevargi think it's already on factory defaults though09:31
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Romsteris java working for anyone on firefox 0.22 ?11:32
Romsteror should i say 22.011:33
Romsterstrange i got a issue here it works on 32bit firefox in /usr/lib/mozilla/plugins but not if i put it in lib3211:37
Romsterbah and opengl on game is now not working hmm11:40
drayevargthat reminds me, i was getting memory errors with wine in world of warcraft that i wasn't experiencing on other distros.. Romster, would you be opposed to me linking some patches that i think would help?11:43
Romsterare other distros using them? and are they out of wine's bug tracker?11:43
Romsteri'm not opposed to you linking, if they go in or not depends.11:44
Romsterkeeping a 32bit java game working is a royal pain.11:45
drayevargyeah, that's why i don't play runescape11:46
Romsteri do have export MOZILLA_FIVE_HOME=/usr/lib32/firefox seems to not respect that for java plugin11:46
Romsteri'm determined to solve this issue -_-11:46
drayevarg#  make CFLAGS+="-mstackrealign -mincoming-stack-boundary=2" CXXFLAGS+="-mstackrealign -mincoming-stack-boundary=2"   are the associated flags to the latter link as per
drayevargdid you ever try the runescape launcher that doesn't require a browser?11:49
drayevargi think you can specify the java path with it11:49
Romsteri know of it, just prefer the browser11:50
Romsterit works on firefox 20 just having fun after that version11:50
Romsterweird thing todo that11:51
Romsteris this all the "patches" really just CFLAGS?11:54
drayevargyeah XD11:54
Romsteri don't consider that a patch -_-11:54
drayevargme neither, sorry :p11:54
Romsterso why do you need these what flags are you using?11:55
drayevargwell i can save you the headache and test it myself after qt4 is done building.. i'm just using -march=native and -O211:56
drayevargthe wow launcher can stream so i don't actually have to download all 20 gigs11:57
Romsterthen you shouldn't have any issues then.11:57
Romsteryour compiling in tmpfs?11:58
drayevargthe game crashes in between 30 sec and 5 minutes of playing11:58
drayevargi don't think so, i think ./work11:58
drayevargwhich has plenty of space11:58
Romsterthen you should have -pipe11:59
Romsteras well.11:59
Romsterbut that only applies if you got fortify source on glibc12:02
drayevargoriginally i didn't even have -O# and i couldn't update glibc, ehehe12:02
drayevargit tells you it requires optimizations12:03
Romsterglibc is a pain it needs -march=x86_64 it hates -march=native12:03
Romsterglibc empr and libmpc if i remember correctly will fail with anything but -march=x86_6412:05
drayevargi'm a masochist, i just tested libmpc and it built12:08
Romsterwell one down the other small libs for binutils gcc glibc12:09
Romsterlibgmp libmpfr and glibc might of been more correct.12:09
drayevargmy wow problem could also be the nouveau driver12:10
Romsteraditionally glibc is a dick and uses V internally.12:10
Romsterso if oyu have Makeflags="V=1" to see verbosity of each compile and try to recompile glibc it will /always/ fail. major gotcha ever. and the WTF part of that is it's by GNU for glibc...12:11
Romsterdon't know if they fixed that bug upstream or not.12:11
Romsterin any case i'm just used to working around those issues.12:11
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Romster4 byte or 16 byte12:21
drayevargi thought the main advantage of -O2 was that it inlines functions12:22
drayevargor disadvantage12:22
RomsterIt's quite simply impossible to keep up; things change only inside the implementation (gcc and binutils) and documentation is not pushed out to any kind of place a normal human can find them.12:22
Romsterhrmmm i'm gonna go bug the wine devs for a sec12:23
jaegerdrayevarg: is that a new problem with a recent version of wine or a long-standing one?12:25
jaeger(the wow issue)12:25
jaegerI've played wow before in wine with no trouble for longer than that, though haven't tried it with the current wine12:25
drayevargjaeger: i can't say because i've only been playing about two months, and only been using crux a short time... but in arch linux it worked in the last 3 versions iirc12:27
drayevargthe only major wow bug i know of that's platform independent is this one
jaegerHave you tried it with the binary nvidia driver? I've never used nouveau for any gaming, it's always given terrible results for me12:28
Romstershould work in crux to, i think this only applies if fortify source is set in CFLAGS on glibc.12:28
drayevargi have not tested nvidia yet in crux, i used both with success before12:28
Romsterbut i'd like to get to the bottom of this. Too confusing like each standard is not saying the same story, they are contradicting themself.12:29
Romsteri'm only using nvidia and nvidia-3212:29
drayevargarch is saying not to use -D_FORTIFY_SOURCE and wine is saying you must use it12:30
drayevargoh yeah and to rule out nls stuff i'm playing in english with en_US.UTF-8 so that's not it12:31
drayevargbut on a side note the monk class is really fun, jaeger, you should try it XD12:32
Romsterulliard> there's a workaround in wine12:33
Romsterno need to alter anything.12:33
Romsterfrom the dev that does the commit checking and releases no doubt the head wine dev.12:33
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jaegerdrayevarg: I've got one12:33
jaeger <-- that guy12:34
jaegerI haven't played in a couple months, though12:34
jaegeror a little over a month according to that page12:36
Romsterjulliard> yeah they changed the ABI, but apparently have no intention of changing it back12:36
Romsterwhat a nasty state of affairs between LSB and gcc/binutils12:36
drayevargmy account expires tomorrow, i'll renew it i can get it working12:38
drayevargi'll test the nvidia driver in a bit12:38
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Romsteryeah LSB changed the standard, wine has a workaround already in it.12:39
drayevargfor memory errors?12:39
Romsterfor IA32 alignment.12:39
RomsterRealign the stack at entry.  On the Intel x86, the -mstackrealign option     will generate an alternate prologue and epilogue that realigns the runtime stack if necessary.  This supports mixing legacy codes that keep a 4-byte    aligned stack with modern codes that keep a 16-byte stack for SSE    compatibility.  See also the attribute "force_align_arg_pointer",    applicable to individual functions.12:41
drayevargthanks :)12:42
Romsterthat's one thing i hate about Linux even the standards are not well documented.12:43
Romsterone group blames the other group12:43
drayevargnobody's 'in charge'12:43
Romsteri always thought linus was :D12:44
drayevarghe seems like a jerk12:44
Romsterwhen it comes to letting systemd in i agree.12:44
Romsterand pulseaudio that's just crap.12:44
Romsterand maybe the firmware crap...12:45
drayevargdbus seems kind of evil too12:45
Romsterdbus needs to be implemented cleaner but no they're are gonna use it as is for systemd.12:45
Romsterdbus idea is sound but it's implementation is crap.12:46
Romsterbloated too.12:46
Romsterwas anyone here even aware of this LSB changing the IA32 standard Amnesia ABI to 16 byte alignment?12:47
drayevargi dunno, just found that12:53
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horrorStruckRomster: systemd won't be used as is, it's gonna be replaced actually
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Romsterkdbus, i see the k and immediately think kde...13:26
horrorStruckk for kernel :) good thing is greg kh is the lead on this project13:29
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drayevargnot surprising, but the nvidia module doesn't build on 3.10-rc7 .. builds on 3.6.1113:32
frinnstprobably builds against 3.913:34
frinnstiirc nvidia used to be quite decent in supporting new'ish kernels13:34
horrorStruckand most likely there's already a patch on nvnews13:34
drayevargno worries.. unfortunately there is wow downtime for 5 more hours so i can't test if that's the culprit13:36
Romsterwow downtime?13:38
Romster5 hours? unheard of.13:38
horrorStruckWoW downtime for 5 hours, unexplained suicide peak13:38
drayevargsorry, world of warcraft is doing server maintenance for 5 more hours13:38
drayevarghey now, i haven't played in weeks XD13:38
Romsterhaha horrorStruck13:39
drayevargi'm more curious to see if the nvidia driver fixes crashes13:39
drayevargthat Romster and i were talking about earlier13:39
Romsterthere is opengl win32 binaries out there google that try it in wine.13:39
drayevargbinaries of what?13:40
Romsteropen gl tests13:41
drayevargi know of one, gltron13:41
drayevargworks in linux too, pretty fun13:41
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RomsterFlag day, switch over the system bus to kdbus, leave session bus as   dbus-daemon. At the same time we will no longer support   dbus-daemon for the system. This will add a hard dependency of   systemd on a very new kernel version. However, to make this palatable   we will try hard to keep kdbus.ko compilable out-of-tree and easily   backportable.13:47
Romsterhard dependency of   systemd on a very new kernel version13:48
Romsterlets hope there will be a out of systemd dbus aswell13:48
Romsteri feel it's immanent we all will be forced to systemd, or stop using linux...13:49
drayevargi thought it said that kdbus will not be available for non-systemd users13:49
diverseoh man, that sucks!13:50
RomsterThe userspace part for setting up the busses will live in systemd. kdbusis not going to be available for non-systemd systems unless somebodysits down and writes an entirely independent bus userspace.13:50
diverseI am betting that the Gentoo devs will write one13:51
Romsterlets hope so13:51
diverseThey were pretty pissed that udev got merged into systemd, so they wrote eudev.13:52
Romsteranything that says lennart makes me suspicious13:52
diversewe got a lennart in our channel :P13:53
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Romsternot currently unless that is leetspete1 ? or some other nick13:53
horrorStruckdiverse: watch eudev session at foscon and immediately stop having hope in this project...13:55
diversehorrorStruck: what happened?13:55
Romsteri talked to the guy and it's a professor with very little time13:55
Romsterkeeping it following systemd without the systemd for now.13:56
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horrorStruckdiverse: basically, conclusion is they're doing it to learn how this stuff works.13:57
horrorStruckvery painful to watch13:58
Romsteri'm truly losing hope in avoiding systemd13:58
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Romstermaybe it's time we go back to static /dev again13:59
diverseDoes this mean I need to consider moving to the BSDs?13:59
horrorStruckit will be possible i guess but with limitations13:59
horrorStruckdiverse: you have time i think14:00
frinnstits probably not as bad as people think14:03
frinnstnot that i like it14:03
frinnstbut, still14:03
diverseare you kidding? There is many bad things about systemd.14:04
horrorStrucksaid it before but i'm happy with it14:04
joacimare you trying to trick us?14:05
leetspete1No, if I was Lennart, I wouldn't be able to stop screaming in a channel like this, but I mostly lurk. QED?14:06
Romsterah there you are, true leetspete114:08
leetspete1I was kind of shocked the first time I came in here.  You guys are all famous, I'm using your ports!  :P14:09
horrorStruckcan't beat me, i delayed xorg-server release just to piss off frinnst :P14:11
leetspete1I guess while I'm babbling, I could throw in my nonsense opinion that if the only distro I can stomach nowadays goes to systemd, I am quitting Linux forever.14:12
doomicidethe suckless guys are brewing some udev alternative14:13
doomicidebased on busybox mdev14:13
doomicidelet me quickly look for the talk14:14
drayevargi use a lot of their stuff, sxiv, spectrwm, dmenu, scrot14:14
doomicidewell sxiv and spectrwm aren't really from the "official" suckless community14:15
doomicidebut yeah I use most of their software too, also made ports for them :)14:15
drayevargi should try slock, i don't like xlockmore14:16
Romsterleetspete1, we prefer to go leet than use systemd14:16
doomicideah found the talk:
leetspete1That's a huge relief.14:18
doomicidethe mldev part starts at ~18:4014:18
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leetspete1doomicide: Will have to watch it later; working at the moment.  But thanks!14:22
diversewatching now14:22
doomicidenp, last weekend the first slcon took place, I think most talks are up on youtube by now14:23
leetspete1I didn't know that there was going to be one.  I kind of stopped looking at their page very often after Uriel died.14:24
diversemdev configs looks a lot nicer14:27
doomicideI esp. like the part where he calls poettering a parasite :D14:29
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meisternuIs there any particular rules regarding version releases of software when making Pkgfiles?17:12
drayevargjaeger: i don't know what i did, but it seems the wow issue is gone :)17:25
drayevargmeisternu: i'm just joe user but if you're going to make it available to the public i would guess it starts with 1 and if any of the files in .footprint or .md5sum will change you should bump the release to 2 and so on17:27
diverseor if you patch the software you also bump the release version.17:29
meisternudrayevarg: thanks for the reply, I was more talking actual release versions ie: 3.0, 3.5, 4.0, etc from the actual creater of the package. I thought I remember somewhere in the Crux mailing list that odd or even releases shouldn't be included because of security reasons or something.17:29
meisternuor maybe I'm just imagining something17:30
drayevargi don't know about that, often times our $version is straight from the source url17:31
drayevargfor example /usr/ports/core/glibc/Pkgfile17:31
frinnstmeisternu: some projects does that (freedesktop for instance), but far from all17:33
meisternuLet me rephrase, is it ok to use the latest release of a package, or should I say use a release prior. Is there any security issues, or incompatability with the latest releases?17:33
drayevargoh, i see17:33
frinnstmeisternu: in general: use the latest stable version.17:34
drayevargsorry, i totally misinterpreted XD17:35
frinnsti might be too :)17:35
meisternuThanks, I think that cleared it up. :)17:37
drayevargxorg-xf86-video-vmware is weird, it makes an empty $PKG/usr/bin thus a footprint mismatch .. could someone test that for me?17:39
cruxbot[xorg.git/3.0]: xorg-xf86-video-vmware: removed empty dir from install17:42
drayevargi'm testing it out with qemu17:42
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frinnstsystemd vs crux:
frinnstgranted systemd has higher speed than that lizzard ;)18:30
drayevarglol what a spaz18:35
drayevargi love cats18:35
frinnstcats are jerks ;)18:35
Lukc__cats are the future of this planet19:31
meisternuAnyone running btrfs / have a good guide to set it up?19:51
frinnstyes, mkfs.btrfs /dev/sdx :)19:55
frinnstthe btrfs-wiki explains it all,
frinnstif you want to boot from it (single device) you need to use syslinux or grub19:56
meisternuHmm, just curious as the latest stable kernel doesn't list it as (experimental) anymore.19:56
frinnstif you want to boot any form of raid you probably need a initrd19:56
drayevargthat left cat has crazy markings19:56
drayevargat the beginning19:56
frinnstit is very experimental19:56
meisternuWhat if i'm using uefi?19:56
teK_I sitll have 'back log' issues on it were it will take ages for tar -xzf xxxxx.tar.gz && rm -rf xxxxxx.tar.gz && tar -xzf yyyyy.tar.gz ... etc.19:57
frinnstim not very familiar with uefi and its bootloaders19:57
frinnstteK_: are you running btrfs-next kernels?
meisternuoh btw teK_ your efibootmgr Pkgfile is broke, bad source link and it's out of date.19:58
teK_frinnst: no19:58
meisternuNo, I'm running the liquorix kernel19:58
meisternuoh sorry, not for me heh19:58
frinnstyou might want to give it a try, very active19:58
teK_oh and frinnst .. I have an image about systemd, too for its fanboys  ;>19:59
frinnstim not a fanboy! i dont even like it :)19:59
frinnsti just doubt its the end of the world19:59
teK_I do quite some development with nfqueue and dark ipatbles voodoo  so I need stable modules wherever I can :o20:00
teK_I doubt that too yet I never heard good news out of that corner of the FOSS universe20:00
teK_haha :020:00
teK_I had an image with lennart, too but it's on a currently offline machine :|20:02
drayevargi have a weird crush on that actress ^20:02
drayevargchanging efibootmgr version and source to builds fine for me20:19
drayevargcan't test it if works unfortunately20:19
meisternudrayevarg: yea, it works fine. Just mentioning that the package doesn't work that is in contrib currently. As I'm not the owner, can't fix it. :P20:23
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cruxbot[contrib.git/3.0]: efibootmgr: 0.5.4 -> 0.6.020:43
teK_thanks for the hint20:43
drayevargdo you guys think gpt fdisk should be in main repositories?21:03
meisternuthat, and should be included on the install cd. I'm not a huge fan of parted, myself.21:04
drayevargyeah it's really awkward21:04
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meisternuQuestion for all you Crux vets: Say you're making a package of something not in the ports yet, and when trying to compile it screws up, or you made a mistake. How do you prevent that failure from spewing a broken program and files onto your system?21:24
drayevargi'm not a vet but if you test the build only with pkgmk and preface all dirs/files paths with $PKG/ you might be ok, since by default it creates a ./work dir21:26
drayevargor use fakeroot21:26
meisternuMakes sense. What about say for those funny packages that compile fine, but don't leave a footprint, even though it threw files around your computer.21:27
drayevargwell if you didn't run 'make install' it shouldn't leave any traces in offensive places21:28
drayevargpkgmk -d just builds a package#etc~ file, you'd have to do pkgmk -i for damage21:28
meisternuAh ok. It's been a while since I fooled around with the system. Thanks.21:29
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deus_exjaeger: nvidia-319.32 driver is fixed few problems I had with new xorg-server.22:52
drayevargeveryone is being disconnected in all my other channels.. crux rocks23:04
jaegerdeus_ex: yep, ran it at work all day to test, works great so far23:08
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cruxbot[opt.git/3.0]: nvidia: updated to version 319.3223:38
cruxbot[compat-32.git/3.0]: nvidia-32: updated to version 319.3223:41
jaegermeisternu: as drayevarg said, use $PKG and fakeroot both. that will cover most problems up front23:42
jaegerIf you do something like "make install" while building a package as root and you don't tell it to install into $PKG, it will be happy to spew files into the live system and no .footprint will be generated because .footprint only cares about what's in $PKG23:44
meisternuThat makes sense, I'll have to be careful about that. The last thing I want to do is mess up on a package build and have to reinstall.23:45
jaegerregarding gdisk/gptfdisk, I'm not a fan of it. it scares a lot of people with its super dire warnings23:45
jaegerpersonal choice, though23:46
drayevarggdisk was yelling at me because my swap overlaps something or other by 33 bytes23:52
drayevargfdisk didn't complain about anything23:52
drayevargi'm actually using mbr, i just got to thinking about gpt because uefi was mentioned23:53

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