IRC Logs for #crux Saturday, 2014-01-25

adilixthe good thing aabout ARM based PCs is they are power less, even then Atoms00:01
rexichthey save power, yes, but unfortunately are less powerful than Atoms and are not a typical PC architecture00:05
joacimhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acorn_Archimedes00:10
joacimARM has been used in desktop computers before00:10
adilixARM isn't something new in the PC world00:11
Feigrjoacim: nice to see a keyboard with Ctrl in the right place00:12
rexichjoacim: I am aware of RISC OS and Acorn, but I envision that an ideal portable netbook would be one that can be used to write software besides doing the usual everyday tasks00:14
rexichI'd love such a netbook with an ARM processor and long battery life00:15
rexichunencumbered with legacy instruction sets, segmented memory model etc.00:15
rexich:)00:15
rexicha pure linux machine00:16
rexichthat would be so cool00:16
prologicyou have seen all the Android mini-PC(s) right?00:17
prologicARM on the Desktop is nothing new00:17
prologicARM on the Server is nothing new00:17
prologicI want a Boston Viridis :)00:18
rexichprologic, I've seen most of them, yes, but not a netbook. maybe something similar to the Efika but 6x more powerful would be perfect00:19
prologicyeah00:20
prologicI think most netbooks are opting for the Atom chips00:20
prologicbut it will come :)00:20
prologicI'm actually looking to buy the ASUS Transformer Book TRIO00:20
prologicthe Core i7 Haswell model00:20
prologic517T model I believe00:20
prologiclooking forward to that00:21
prologicI'll be putting CRUX on the dock00:21
prologicand an unlocked/rooted ANdroid on the tablet00:21
prologicit's Dual OS, Dual CPU00:21
prologicso both are always running00:21
prologicwhich I love00:21
rexichcool :D00:24
joacimperformance doesnt look that shabby00:25
joacimhttp://www.notebookcheck.net/SoC-Shootout-x86-vs-ARM.99496.0.html00:25
joacimI could easily use one of those on a desktop computer00:26
rexichprologic: interesting concept, but I find it a little too much of an overkill00:27
rexichit's actually two devices craftily encased into one00:27
joacimi wouldn't have to get by either. it would be plenty fast enough when compared to my current mac mini00:27
joacimonly reason why i got this was because my old early macbook broke00:27
cruxbot[contrib.git/3.0]: opera: 12.15 -> 12.1600:28
rexichjoacim: interesting article00:29
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joacima lot of people dont even use desktop pcs anymore. they can do pretty much the same thing on an arm powered phone or tablet00:30
Romstera tablet is tempting been eyeing one off myself00:30
joacimonly using desktop computers at the office00:30
rexichno keyboard? no thanks :)00:35
rexichI dislike tablets, netbooks rule, I don't like touchscreens, using fingers on a touchscreen is not very intuitive (low precision, no haptic feedback, covers the visual information to be selected, it requires a lot of visual cortex processing, unpredictable spatial nature of the UI elements - no hints where to touch without seeing the screen and being sure you've selected the right button/icon/menu item etc.)00:38
joacimpretty much the same problem that mouse and keyboards then00:39
rexichkeyboard do not overwhelm the visual cortex, are quick to learn to use, do not change mode (static, predictable content/function and location of keys) and can be used without looking at them00:39
joacimyou need a lot of visual information to be able to act and react with your mouse and keyboard00:39
rexichdo you look at your mouse while working with it? :D00:40
rexichor it acts as an extension of your arm impersonated into a pointer?00:40
joacimno i look at my screen so i can see what i'm doing with.00:40
rexichof course00:40
joacimsame as on a tablet00:40
prologicrexich, yeah that's why I love it00:41
prologicit is preciely that00:41
prologictwo devices in one00:41
prologicI'd get rid of my Nexus 7 for this00:41
rexichwhen working on a tablet, you touch the screen and cover the content you are working with00:41
joacimi'd say a touch screen is a lot more predictable, as the action happens where you touch.00:41
prologiclaptop/tablet combo00:41
joacimwith mouse and keyboards it is easy to throw actions at the wrong application because you didn't notice which window was in focus00:41
rexichbut they are precise00:42
rexichvery precise00:42
rexichtouch is imprecise00:42
joacimtry drawing with a mouse. it isnt very precise =)00:42
rexichI do all the time ;)00:42
joacimit is actually pretty hard to get decently good at that00:42
rexich3D, even00:42
joacimmuch easier with touch and wacom tablets00:43
rexichtablet != touch!00:43
rexichwacom tablets use very precise tech!00:43
rexichand do not cover the screen :D00:43
joacimI was refering to stuff like ipad and nexus 7 when i said touch00:43
joacimhave a look at the wacom cintiq =)00:44
rexichI've meant drawing tablets, screenless devices00:44
rexichwe have those at university, and hp touchscreens00:44
rexichI know what you mean00:44
rexichI believe, after a lot of work with mouse, keyboard, drawing tablets and touch, that touch is the most imprecise00:45
joacimyou dont really need to see the button at every single moment. it isnt going to move as you press your finger against it00:45
rexichplease try entering text on a touchscreen for a long time :)00:46
rexichthen tell me if that is practical at all00:46
rexichthere is a reason why keyboards exist for almost 200 years, and that's called ergonomy00:46
rexichI believe that keyboards are currently the best way we can enter text on a computing device00:47
joacimit is faster and more accurate, but for tablets you dont need that00:47
joacimyou're not going to write microsoft windows from scratch on a tablet, or the next book in the wheel of time series00:47
cruxbot[compat-32.git/3.0]: gdk-pixbuf-32: 2.30.2 -> 2.30.300:48
cruxbot[compat-32.git/3.0]: libvorbis-32: 1.3.3 -> 1.3.400:48
cruxbot[compat-32.git/3.0]: util-linux-32: 2.24 -> 2.24.100:48
rexichif a tablet is to replace a personal computer, it must be better in every way from a PC, not limited as they are now00:48
joacimyou're just going to write some snarky little post on an image board somewhere, or maybe even just scroll down on someones blog =)00:48
joacimfor a lot of people, snarky posts on image boards and scrolling up and down on blogs is pretty much all they ever do00:48
joacimthose are perfectly fine with ipads00:48
rexichwell, I actually use my computers for creation, not just consumption00:49
rexichthen an iPad is an appliance, and not a computer00:49
rexichsince it's more limited than a PC00:49
joacima lot of people want something to draw on while they're outside too, something that isnt a hipster molescine and one of those fancy pen ink filled brushes00:49
rexichon what do you base that opinion?00:50
joacimpeople. on what i see people do, and what people tell me00:50
joacimand what i feel and think about what i like and what i do00:50
rexichwhy would a sane person pay that much for a device to draw on? much more expensive, requiring electricity, much more imprecise than a simple piece of paper and a pencil00:50
rexichanyone can afford paper and pencil00:51
joacima lot of people have touch devices as their main computing device. all they want is something to check facebook on00:51
rexichand they are the ultimate tools of expression, cheap, portable, practical, anyone can use them, no matter the financial status, the cultural background, age, anything00:51
joacimthey dont do work on it, they don't do much of anything. just update their facebook status and watch some clips on youtube00:51
rexichthat's what a netbook can do, and more00:52
joacimone can easily transfer a drawing from a tablet to your workstation. transfering from paper requires more equipment00:52
joacimnetbooks are too small and too cramped. a lot of them had shitty batteries too00:53
rexichmine isn't, actually00:53
joacimnot very comfy while sitting on the train either00:53
adilixbad thing on netbooks is low resolution00:53
rexichit's not that bad :D00:53
joacimhold tablet with my left hand. activate stuff with my right hand00:54
adilixi hated my netbook because of 1024x60000:54
joacimyou're allowed to use something and still admit that they kinda sucks =)00:54
rexichhold my netbook in my lap or a table, use both hands for work and it's fast00:54
rexichevery tech actually sucks00:54
joacimI use OS X, CRUX, and Windows on my computers00:54
joacimI find stuff that sucks on most of them00:54
rexichuse whatever you wish, it's your money and your life after all :D00:55
joacimI'm a slucher. a netbook wouldn't be stable, and I'd be uncomfortable00:55
joacima 13" laptop was bad enough00:55
rexichI'm just saying what I've learned through the years of working on computers, studying human ergonomics and designing stuff around these topics00:55
rexichuse what suits you best00:56
rexichwhat suits me best is my netbook00:56
rexichmy hands and my eyes are in perfect sync with it00:56
rexichand it does what I tell it to do00:56
joacima lot of the designy user interface usability types seems to think that tablets are great00:56
rexichthat means it suits my purposes and it's my preferred tool00:57
adilixi dont know why but i hate tablets00:57
rexichjoacim, there is a very, very big issue about tablets:00:57
rexichthey are not suitable for blind people at all00:57
joacimsome blind people disagree00:57
rexichnetbooks can be, because there is tactile sense from the keys00:57
joacimone can argue that a normal wintel computer isnt exactly suitable for blind people either.00:58
rexichI've designed a computing device for the blind ;)00:58
rexichbut I'm still considering redesigning it00:58
rexichsomething like a smartphone would suit blind people, since it's small and can be tied to their hand00:59
adilixany shots00:59
rexichthe future is definitely in mobile devices (tricorders, haha), but I wouldn't throw the PCs and laptops away yet01:00
joacimi'm just saying that some are01:07
joacimmaybe not at work, but they are at home01:07
joacimvisited my father once and saw he had completely stopped using his desktop pc in favour of his ipad01:07
joacimonly used his work laptop once in a while for work specific things01:08
adilixquestion, is there flash support in CRUX01:09
joacimhttp://crux.nu/portdb/?a=search&q=flash =)01:09
rexichadilix: prt-get install flash-player-plugin01:10
rexich:D01:10
adilixthey are all to old01:11
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rexichfrom the adobe website, linux 64 bit version: 11.2.202.33501:15
adilixaa ok01:15
adilixyes they stoped the development for 64bit01:15
rexichcrux version in opt: 11.2.202.33501:15
rexichit's up-to-date01:15
rexich:D01:15
adilixlol01:15
rexichyes they did :/01:16
rexichthere's only development for chrome (NOT chromium!)01:16
rexichit's included in chrome01:16
adilixbut someday adobes flash will really die on the net01:16
jaegerand that's pepperflash, not adobe01:16
rexichadobe only updates it for serious bugfixes01:16
rexichthe API interface is Pepper, but it's Adobe's Flash01:17
rexichand it's available only for Chrome01:17
rexich-_-01:17
rexichadilix: for now it won't, HTML5 isn't that capable and universal, unfortunately, but they're working on it01:18
adilixogm is another very good choice for net media01:20
adilixflash stays alive and is popular because of the games out there01:20
rexichit's theora codec inside ogg container01:21
adilixOnline gaming and so on01:21
rexichand yes, not only games but DRM video/audio01:21
adilixyes01:21
rexichI think even Adobe wants to dump it and focus solely on HTML501:23
rexichnot sure how well will that suit them,01:23
rexichsince they make a lot of money off Flash01:23
adilixHTML5 is the future01:23
rexichthe plugin is free, but the creation software isn't, that's the catch for Flash01:23
rexichHTML5 is today :P01:24
adilixthey seems to be very lazy to develop flash01:24
rexichHTML5 and Flash are fundamentally different01:24
adilixyes01:24
rexichFlash is more about vector graphics and movies with ActionScript (a dialect of JavaScript) added so it can be more interactive01:25
rexichHTML5 is actually a document format01:25
rexichbut misused to be an app platform :D01:25
adilixand... look around android theydroped the flash support on andorid and after that most games are created with HTNL501:28
rexichon Android most games are in Java01:29
rexichHTML5 isn't used that much yet01:29
adilixyes the old games, and most in C++01:29
rexichit still isn't standardised completely01:29
adilixyes therefore HTML5 isnt so popular, but it will one day01:30
rexichyes, it's getting there, Mozilla, Google and Opera stand behind it01:32
rexichbesides the WWW Consortium01:32
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adilixwe talked about netbooks and ARM before, this one is not so bad  http://shop.lenovo.com/nl/en/laptops/ideapad/a-series/a10/01:51
adilixit acts mostly like an rel notebook01:51
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rexichadilix, I'll check it ot in a second01:55
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rexichinteresting!01:57
rexichbeautiful design01:57
jaegerrel?01:57
rexichit's an Android netbook01:58
rexichjaeger we are discussing this: http://shop.lenovo.com/nl/en/laptops/ideapad/a-series/a10/01:58
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jaegerI saw the a10, I didn't get the "rel" reference01:58
rexichhe meant "real"01:59
jaegerAh01:59
adilixyes its an android but i think its possible to install linux on it01:59
rexichit is? wow :D01:59
rexichI can't find a guide about running Linux on this thing :/02:03
adilixlol me to02:04
adilixits because not so much people have it02:04
adilixi have found for mostly every china android notebook a guide but not for this02:05
rexich:D02:09
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xveehey guys02:09
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adilixhi02:11
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xveenew crux users i see!02:14
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adilixyes but not really a new user of it02:18
rexichhello xvee :)02:19
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xveethats awesome02:21
xveehow are you guys?02:22
adilixi am fine thx and you02:22
rexichsleepy02:22
adilixme too02:22
rexichoh, and I'm reading this, it's hilarious http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/1w1y5m/we_are_the_google_site_reliability_engineering/02:23
rexich:D02:23
xveeits quite funny. im good a  bit upset. my car was hit  :(02:27
rexichoh my :O how did that happen?02:28
xveeparked the car outside instead of inside my building. come back to the bumper really scartched, rim bent in and tire twisted. it was a hit and run.  =[02:30
xveeworst of all, it was the fancy car :(((02:30
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rexich:(((((02:42
rexichI'm sorry xvee02:42
rexichis the car insured?02:42
xveeyep. insurance is going to take care of it, but still. i feel like i betrayed my baby lol02:42
jaegerthat happened to me two cars ago, someone in a white car swiped half the side, left a big stripe of white paint and scratches02:44
rexichtsk tsk tsk :O02:44
xveetoo many a-holes in this world. the evo is black, so everything is like 10x worse.02:45
jaegermy old car was dark green, I know the feeling02:46
xveeon a completely unrelated note, im not quite sure what it is, but i got html5 to work fine on gentoo, but not so much crux. im not sure if its because romster has his prebuilt chromium without gstreamer02:47
rexichhtml5 works fine on stock firefox on crux, ogv/theora videos play without any need for gstreamer02:49
rexichyou can watch most youtube clips without flash :D02:49
xveewell, i was trying to get viewtube/greasemonkey to work, but that combo on firefox has high cpu usage02:50
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rexichwhat CPU and GPU you use?03:01
xveei7 3630 qm and the intel hd4000 i think03:03
adilixgtg cya bye bye03:03
xveeadios adilix03:03
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rexichI simply disable flash and open youtube in firefox and there is no lag, even on my netbook (Atom N450 @ 1.6 GHz, 2 GB RAM, Intel GMA3150 - slow)03:13
rexichbut it works okay, better than flash even :D03:13
xveehm. thats strange, when i watched a video with firefox, my cpu usage was up to like 60%03:14
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Plazmaoh dang, wwas going to ask waht netbook he acutally had03:51
jaegereeepc I believe03:52
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jaegerunless I've mixed him up with someone else03:52
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Plazmaahh nice03:59
Plazmawas hoping to pick up an acer nav50 locally but the chick sold i talready03:59
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xveecompiling on atoms...how do you guys do it04:12
Plazmaintel atoms?04:26
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nogagplzxvee: ccache usually04:36
nogagplzafter the first time it's usually much less painful04:36
Plazmalooks like the ppc contrinbuted images for crux stopped at 2.0 :/04:46
nogagplzhttp://cruxppc.org/News#CRUX-PPC-3_0-released ?04:49
Plazmawoa04:50
Plazmai had no idea you guys still built for it.. awesome!04:50
nogagplzwhat ppc platform do you use04:51
Plazmanothing yet, prob apple ppc g404:51
Plazmain an old powerbook04:51
Plazmait appears the crux ppc stuff getting picked back up is recent then?04:52
nogagplzI used to run crux on a g3 ages ago, it gets a bit cumbersome though waiting for updates and the like04:53
Plazmayea, looks like 3.0 for ppc is relatively new04:53
Plazmawell middle of last year04:53
nogagplzif you want something that largely works out of the box lubuntu-ppc is actually fairly decent, and debian too although I couldn't fix the utterly broken video with X on it04:54
Plazmawell really , i'm just looking for an older netbook style laptop.. 11-12" that i can hack/beat around .. and some of the used ones people want $200+ for them04:54
Plazmaand i just realized i can get a powerbook g4 12" 1.5 ppc for about $150 if that04:54
nogagplznever tried a 12" powerbook , I have a 15" one though and it's still damn quick and does a great job04:56
Plazmayea04:56
Plazmathats my realization.. i mean.. if people are wanting $200 for a used intel based one.. and what $3-$400+ for a new one04:57
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xveereally should set up ccache then lol06:13
xveei wanted to install crux on my friends laptop, but it was 32 bit and an atom. figured ubuntu minimal would be an easier way than compiling everything06:13
nogagplzcompile elsewhere then pkgadd on the atom from the live environment06:20
nogagplzthen after that first time either ccache on the atom or use prebuilt packages06:20
xveethats what i thought of doing. figure my i7 will be days faster than the atom, but he's running 32 bit. i thougth 2.8 was the last 32 bit...well, i guess it shouldn't matter. the packages are being updated anyway06:28
xveehm.06:28
nogagplza 2.8 chroot wouldn't be that hard to setup06:29
nogagplzthis is way too much effort for an atom though, less of a pain to use something easier :P06:30
xveehaha yea06:30
xveehow have you been nogagplz?06:30
nogagplzsame old same old, lots of procrastinating06:32
xveeoh dont remind me. i haven't started my homework, and this is the hardest semester i will ever have until law school06:32
nogagplzoh what's the subject, and due to that law school bit I've lost all respect you for06:33
xvee:(06:42
xveewell, at the moment, im going for english06:42
xveecurrently learning theories and the philospohy of the english language06:42
xveephilosophy06:42
nogagplzthat's not so bad06:52
xveeits pretty bad07:15
tilmansounds pretty bad08:03
xveealright, well, goodnight everyone08:14
xveenice talking to you!08:14
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cruxbot[core.git/3.0]: libdevmapper: update to 1.02.10508:36
cruxbot[opt.git/3.0]: imagemagick: fix dependencies08:36
cruxbot[opt.git/3.0]: libnl: update to 3.2.2408:36
cruxbot[opt.git/3.0]: lvm2: update to 2.02.10508:36
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rexichhello people :)12:16
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nwehey16:30
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cruxbot[xorg.git/3.0]: [notify] xorg-xf86-video-ati: reverted xorg-glamor-egl dependency.18:58
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Rotwangfrinnst: why?19:06
frinnstbecause the current mesa3d port wont support it anyways19:06
frinnstjust adding a pointless dependency as it is currently19:07
Rotwangi see19:08
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frinnsthttp://tech.slashdot.org/story/14/01/25/0246202/open-source-amd-driver-now-supports-opengl-33-and-its-getting-faster19:11
frinnstwee19:11
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Plazmai bought this ati radeon card for my girlfriend a while ago and it did not support openGL at all.. it was a newer card to19:12
xveehi folks19:12
Plazmanothing fantastic but.. wtf wouldn't it support opengl.. needless to say she couldn't playe minecraft ont i19:13
xveePlazma: you wouldn't happen to play ftb, would you? :P19:13
Plazmanot even sure what it is19:14
Plazmaso no :P19:14
xveeoh, its a modded version of minecraft. feed the beast lol19:15
Plazmaoh19:17
Plazmanot a minecrafter.. gf is though19:17
Plazmahow does minecraft work on linux?19:17
xveequit well, actually19:20
xveerunning it with openjdk with no issues at all19:21
frinnstPlazma: what os did you run under?19:22
Plazmait was windows 7 .. she's not a technical person19:22
frinnstafaik all amd/ati cards fully support opengl19:22
Plazmafrinnst: well i forgot the model of this on but19:23
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Plazmathere was a lot of people bitchin about it for that very reason19:23
frinnstah, the default drivers?19:23
Plazmaeven with ati drivers19:23
frinnstwow, what?19:23
Plazmayea..19:23
Plazmai think i got rid of it,, but it was something quirky about that one card model19:23
frinnstthat sounds like quite a useless card19:23
Plazmathats why i got rid of it19:23
Plazmashe told me "it didn't support opengl" i told her she's full of shit19:23
Plazmabut sure enough19:23
Plazmaseems to be the case19:23
frinnsthttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATI_Radeon19:24
frinnstseems all radeon ships support it according to wikipedia atleast19:24
Plazmayea19:25
Plazmai can't say as i understand it myself19:25
Plazmawas a year or 2 ago.. so19:25
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tilman"doesnt support opengl" is bullshit19:29
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joacimminecraft. lots of issues with that one.19:37
joacimi'm thinking it was just the game and not the card19:38
Plazmai dunno, maybe19:38
Plazmaor maybe it supported it but opengl just didn't work on it19:38
Plazmawish i still had the damn thing to find out19:38
Plazmaohw ell19:38
joacimwhich card was it?19:38
joacimmight just have been the drivers too. people like to complain about them. should still supprot opengl tho19:40
Plazmai got rid of it so i don't know :/19:41
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frinnstcool, "reboot" segfaulted19:55
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Plazmahah19:57
frinnstiirc it has happened before on that machine19:58
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xveei thought there was a steam port for crux o.o i only see a 32 bit one it seems by lennart20:44
joacimsteam is 32-bit20:46
xveewell then...haha20:48
xveemy friend wants to buy a steam os. i kinda dont see the point. why not purchase a comptuer and put steam os on it20:49
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joacimis he the kind that likes to build his own computers?21:43
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xveewell..he's not too bad with him. im sure he's more than capable.21:57
Feigrfrinnst: http://www.ebay.com/itm/IBM-Model-M-Clicky-Keyboard-1395682-Space-Saver-Industrial-Grey-Vintage-/171225517180?pt=PCA_Mice_Trackballs&hash=item27ddd60c7c22:01
frinnsthahah22:14
frinnst$469..22:14
frinnstgeez22:14
joacim36 bids22:15
joacimthat's the one i noticed :p22:15
joacimpeople are crazy22:16
Feigrboth Space Saver and Industrial Grey22:21
Feigrrare + rare = ultra rare22:21
joacimI'd go for a new tenkeyless keyboard22:31
joacimthose are clean =)22:31
joacimnot full of gunk22:31
FeigrI have a Ducky G2PRO tenkeyless, I like it very much22:34
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tilmanfilci tenkeyless here, awesome22:51
tilmanfilco22:51
joacimwant one for my mac, but i cant find one with the correct layout22:53
joacimi'd get one for my windows pc, but i don't really type that much one that one22:53
FeigrDucky keyboards have dip switches to change it to mac layout22:53
joacimI want the markings on the keys to match with what i see on screen22:54
Feigrthere are replacement caps: http://www.wasdkeyboards.com/index.php/products/keycap-mod-packs/os-cherry-mx-keycaps-set-of-2.html#ad-image-022:56
joacimI'll need to replace a lot more than the windows/cmd keys22:57
joacimhttp://cl.ly/TYOp <- this is what it should look like23:01
joacimdas keyboard has a mac keyboard, but it is huge and I don't want any shiny plastics near my hands23:02
Feigryeah Das is bad design23:02
Feigrnot sure what else there is, I've never looked at Mac keyboards23:03
joacimmatias has some mac keyboards too, but those are kinda funny looking23:03
joacimi like the ones from filco23:03
joacimwell, i dont think they have a mac keyboard, but i could get their windows keyboard and get a full replacement set from wasd keyboards maybe23:04
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