IRC Logs for #crux Sunday, 2014-01-26

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cruxbot[opt.git/3.0]: [notify]: security setuptools world writable files fix00:50
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Romsterhappy australia day everyone.04:35
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nogagplzRomster I'm going through that emulators stuff, when did pretty much everything decide to break? :P05:07
Romsteri dunno i didn't do any testing in awhile.05:51
Romsterprobably could drop emulators-i686 and just focus on emulators05:51
Romsteranyone serious enough to run emulators should have recent hardware on multilib anyways05:52
nogagplzhm yeah I guess take a snapshot of it then get rid of the repo05:54
Romsteror just don't bother bumping it and only focus on emulators06:09
Romsterx86 only hardware is getting more scarce06:09
RomsterFontconfig error: "/etc/fonts/conf.d/10-scale-bitmap-fonts.conf", line 70: non-double matrix element07:08
Romsterwhat causes that. i has steam running in crux but not now.07:08
nogagplzhave you seen anything like this before? "07:30
nogagplz./configure: line 13729: syntax error near unexpected token `;;'07:30
Romsterno07:30
Romsteroh your asking a question07:30
Romsterwhat's on that line in configure?07:30
nogagplzjust ;;07:31
Romsterand before it a case or something?07:31
Romstercould be just broken could try autoreconf07:31
nogagplzautoreconf doesn't sort it, you can take a look at it when you get a sec it's the pcsx-reloaded07:40
Romstersame version as is now?07:40
nogagplzI just pushed a whiole lot of changes to the emulators repo07:41
Romsteri'm in the middle of dependency hell building half of gnome for the dependencies i require -_-07:41
nogagplzso probably ports -u or fetch first07:41
Romsterk07:41
Romstergeth and rebase it is07:41
Romsterfetch*07:41
Romsterarch has made you soft <<07:57
nogagplzno actually I'm hard as nails, checked that pcsx2 worked with xhost07:58
nogagplzcome at me bro etc etc07:58
Romsterhas to be a difference of crux then.07:59
nogagplzI haven't used pcsxr on arch for that matter, same shit might even happen there07:59
nogagplzthe mednafen one in retroarch pretty much flogs it seven ways to sunday08:00
Romsterah08:06
Romsterrebuild harfbuzz libass and now fontconfig and i'll see if this fixes my issue08:07
Romsternope08:09
nogagplzyeah pcsx2 works, forgot to install the nvidia libgl stuff08:09
nogagplzusually that's been a real prick to get going but this time it was nice08:10
Romstermake sure you add it to depends on line08:10
nogagplzthat was for x not exclusively pcsx2 itself08:10
Romsteroh08:10
Romsternogagplz, can you make a list of what needs looking at with any hints code urls etc if you know of any. i'm gonan be burned out soon. been hacking at code all after noon08:18
nogagplzprobably the only major outstanding stuff is cdemu and mupen64plus and they should be pretty easy08:19
nogagplzcdemu just bump the version for each of the packages, listed in the cdemu dependency line08:19
nogagplzand match the mupen packages to https://github.com/mupen64plus, change them from bitbucket to github, and remove from the repoistory what doesn't appear in that link08:20
Romstersomething iffy with /etc/fonts/conf.d/10-scale-bitmap-fonts.conf08:23
Romsterbut i dunno what.08:24
nogagplzcan't you force it to use other fonts08:32
Romstermaybe but i can't be buggered doing any more now i'm fatigued08:35
tilmani'm wondering why mesa 10.0.2 isn't in ports. i believe it's considered as stable as 9.2.x09:06
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MarcusRmorning11:11
Romstertilman, ask frinnst. I was thinking of bumping it to 10.x as stable but I have no way of testing it due to me using nvidia-binary.11:13
prologichttp://blog.docker.io/2013/07/docker-desktop-your-desktop-over-ssh-running-inside-of-a-docker-container/11:14
Romsterman and i still havne't got any closer to getting my versonsort.com up and operational and i'm drowsy with allergies.11:15
Rotwangwhat is versonsort.com?11:18
juetilman: cause of a changed so-name rebuilding of everything that depends on mesa is required, we have to add new deps to it too; at all we postponed the update to 3.111:18
RomsterRotwang, gonna be a search page for projects. source files. i got raw data jsut not databased yet nor a search page to show the results. http://versionsort.com/gentoomirror.txt11:21
Romsterif i ever get it done11:21
Romsteri honestly don't care if i have to rebuild my entire system due to an update. but others do.11:24
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tilmanjue: what library changed its so name?11:49
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juetilman: dunno remember, will rebuild it later11:51
Romsterstop beign so lazy tilman and compile it and look for yourself.11:55
Romstersince you asked.11:55
frinnsthehe11:55
frinnsti mind rebuilding everything on my box at work11:55
frinnstdont care at home11:55
Romsterwith a fast pc it's not much effort.11:55
Romsterwe need two channels dev and stable stable does not break so name changes dev does.11:56
Romsteri'd sit on dev11:56
Romsterbut still not really crux way so we all have to postbone.11:56
Romstergoing to game i'm drowsy and irritable and might be a little taking it out on others sorry. :)11:57
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Rotwangthere is not enough MANPOWAH for such shenanigans11:57
Rotwangjust imagine what would happen if crux became mainstream distro11:58
Rotwangwe would become arch11:58
Rotwangor worse: gentoo11:58
rexichHello. For god sake do not let Crux become Arch o_o12:02
Rotwangahhhh12:04
Rotwangjenkins is a trully crappy piece of software12:04
MarcusRwhy would anyone want to make crux into something else?12:05
rexichMarcusR: not sure, but as time goes it will be hard to resist systemd, see what they did to Debian, Arch...12:14
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prologicok so here's tht hing12:19
prologicit's not really all that hard to keep crux what it is today12:20
prologicbut make some of the more painful things eaiser12:20
prologice.g: upgrading whole systems12:20
prologicdealing with upstream sources going 40412:20
prologicdealing with broken libraries (usually due to upgrades)12:20
prologicmaking builds automated with very little dev/contrib intervention12:21
prologicbut of course putting this in place also requires effort12:21
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joacimI think people here just want to browse reddit or something. judging by the large number of imgur links that get posted here12:22
rexichprologic: what about udev? in case it cannot be separated from systemd, what will Crux resort to then? mdev/busybox?12:24
prologicwell we'll see12:25
prologicI doubt they can continue this madness for long12:25
nogagplzwasn't there that gentoo fork of udev12:32
Rotwanglets write own udev in awk12:34
nogagplzall in favour of making romster do it, say I12:36
frinnstjoacim: im probably responsible for 90% of those :)12:39
frinnstcrux will probably grow a bit in package numbers and dependencies12:40
frinnstlong gone are the ~250mb install iso's12:40
joacimI dont mind. compared to 2004 numbers, these are kinda ok12:41
MarcusRi am sort of a noob here but i need to ask this12:42
MarcusRso what you get with these auto /dev systems is like a plug and play thingy?12:42
MarcusRstuff you usually need to do by hand12:43
MarcusRstarting and stopping daemons and so on12:43
prologicI12:44
RotwangMarcusR: in the old days you had to create nodes with mknod yourself12:44
frinnstnot sure i understand your question12:44
Rotwangudev handles it for you12:45
Rotwangoh god, the chinese people can't give me a break even during the weekend12:45
MarcusRyes12:45
frinnstof course not, they are not aware of weekends :>12:45
Rotwangor the time zones12:45
prologicyeah afaik udev just manages device creation12:45
rexichMarcusR: yes. udev and such hotplug daemons create and delete the (block/character) device nodes automatically, announce the removal/insertion of a device and that allows you to load firmware, for example12:46
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frinnstprologic: it does handle some magic too, or, it can be configured to do so12:46
prologicand also lets you do funky stuff like create symlinks12:46
prologicand setup permissions on devices, etc12:46
rexichyes12:46
prologicit's not really all that novel ihmo12:46
Rotwangmy colleague wrote poc udev in awk once12:46
prologicso there will likely be some kind of udev clone/fork12:46
prologichttps://index.docker.io/u/rogaha/docker-desktop/12:47
prologicI just got the client-side of this to work here12:47
prologicbuilt the required missing ports12:47
prologicworks nicely12:47
MarcusRok12:47
MarcusRbut they are essential to any modern computer?12:48
RotwangMarcusR: yes12:48
MarcusRlike when i installed Slackware 2.0 back in the day everything had to be done by hand12:48
Rotwangyou don't want to revert to static /dev12:48
Rotwangeverything that can be done automatically, should be done automatically12:48
frinnsti ran mdev for a while instead of udev.. it handles device node creations only pretty much12:49
frinnstfelt like stepping back in time12:49
rexichsurely automatic /dev is the way, but I'm afraid udev will be more binded to systemd and we will be left with no udev :(12:49
frinnstno automagic module loading or anything12:49
frinnstrexich: udev is already a part of systemd and you cant build it form source anymore12:49
frinnsteudev seems to work nice though (gentoo fork)12:50
Rotwangwhat a retarded idea12:50
rexichI think mdev has a /etc/mdev.conf file to tell it whenever it detects a device inserted/removed what to do i.e. which program to start12:50
Rotwangudev being part of systemd12:50
rexichRotwang: yes. systemd is completely retarded. binary logs are a retarded implementation. there is a reason they must be textual - so we can read it, not computers, and not by using any specialized tool12:51
frinnstrexich: what, you dont like the windows eventlog? :D12:51
rexichno :D12:51
MarcusRaaah so that's why systemd is retarded12:51
MarcusRok12:51
rexichI prefer the current Crux's rc implementation because it's simple and easy to understand and tweak12:52
RotwangMarcusR: there is many reasons [;12:53
Rotwangs/is/are/12:53
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MarcusR:D12:58
prologicfrinnst, so what's bad about mdev per say?12:58
prologicas a replacement for udev12:58
MarcusRin linux from scratch they extract udev from systemd it seems13:04
prologichaven't they tightly integrated it though13:05
prologicso you can't use udev without systemd?13:05
MarcusRhttp://www.linuxfromscratch.org/lfs/downloads/stable/LFS-BOOK-7.4-NOCHUNKS.html#ch-system-udev13:08
prologichttps://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Mdev#Will_mdev_work_on_my_system.3F13:11
prologichmm13:12
prologicaccording to wikipedia Debian ship it seprately13:12
prologicperhaps we're not as screwed as we thought13:12
prologicwe *might* be able to keep using udev13:12
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rexichNote: Recent versions of evdev x11-drivers/xf86-input-evdev and Chromium www-client/chromium require udev. They will not build without it.13:18
rexichshit13:18
rexichI don't use Chromium but I do use xf86-input-evdev and I'm sure most of us do13:19
rexichwill reverting to xf86-input-mouse and xf86-input-keyboard work?13:19
prologicyes13:20
prologicafaik13:20
rexichdoes that mean that plugging a mouse or a keyboard while X works they won't work automatically?13:21
prologicI think so :)13:21
rexich:(13:21
rexichsadness13:21
rexichhere's what depends on udev on my system (prt-get dependent udev):13:22
rexichlibusb13:22
rexichlibdevmapper13:22
rexichdhcpcd13:22
rexichlibpcap13:22
rexichxorg-server13:22
rexich:/13:22
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prologichttp://agentoss.wordpress.com/2011/03/06/building-a-tiny-x-org-linux-system-using-buildroot/13:27
rexichinteresting13:39
prologichehe13:53
prologicin all seriousness I've wanted to (for a few years now) build a linux distro using Python :)13:53
rexichis that even possible? :D13:55
rexichimagine all software in Python13:55
Rotwang"using Python" what does it mean in this context?13:55
rexichRotwang: maybe in the context that all software would be written in Python, except the kernel of course13:55
Rotwangdoesn't sound really realistic [;13:56
joacimall rc scripts in python, and a python shell instead of bash13:57
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joacimpip as the main package manager too =)13:58
joacimit'd be interesting, but I don't think I'd use it13:58
prologichttp://crux.nu/Wiki/Mdev13:59
prologicnah not quite13:59
prologicso13:59
prologica python init and supervisor14:00
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prologicpython pkgutils and other tools14:00
prologicand not much else really14:00
prologichttp://jw.tks6.net/files/crux/cruxmap.html14:02
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RotwangI think I wouldn't use it also14:05
prologichttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pardus_(operating_system)#Release_history14:05
prologicthere is already one such distro :)14:05
prologictwo actually - RHEL/CentOS14:06
MarcusRi just realized i should check if my Sun IPX still works14:06
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MarcusRbeen sitting unused for many a years14:07
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pshevtsovHello! How could I configure bitlbee properly? I added "ircd stream tcp nowait nobody /usr/sbin/bitlbee bitlbee" to my /etc/inetd.conf and "User = bitlbee" to my /etc/bitlbee/bitlbee.conf but it still complains "Disconnected: Warning: BitlBee is running with root privileges. Why?"16:32
teK___I intentionally did not provide a service file with bitlbee as it is not really as system daemon. I do acknowledge that this is not optimal, either16:33
teK___did you create a user 'bitlbee'?16:34
pshevtsovteK___: nope16:35
teK___you better do.  I have to give this another thought (wrt pre-install script and a possible rc-file)16:35
rmullDo people actually use inetd?16:35
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tilmanrmull: i recently set it up no a "production" machine17:15
tilmanrmull: not really serious though ;)17:15
rmullIs its only purpose to reduce idle system memory usage?17:18
rmullI don't understand it17:18
rmullI've avoided it for years as a result17:18
frinnsti used it to enable tftp on my workstation at work17:25
frinnsti needed it to boot our old netapp after i "bricked" it :p17:25
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darfoafaik, (x)inetd is for saving real memory by having one daemon waiting for calls to rarely used services.17:48
darfoeven if a daemon is idle there are some pages that can't be swapped out17:48
darfoI only use at work on large servers that allow student/staff logins17:49
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Rotwangwith todays amounts of ram that are used, I think one daemon more or less makes no difference [;17:50
darfodepends on the potential number of concurrent logins.17:51
Rotwangit still doesn't17:51
darfoah, have you experienced swapping with 10,000+ processes running?17:52
RotwangI don't have swap17:53
darfobecause of bloatware like Gnome our users gobble up a lot of processes17:53
Rotwangproblem solved17:53
Rotwangdarfo: we have build servers with 150-200GB of ram17:54
Rotwangit is completely sufficent for devs and for CI17:54
darfoyes, solved with a crash or OOM killing the the wrong processes17:54
Rotwangdarfo: we have disabled overcommit17:54
Rotwanganyway people who use gnome on the dev servers are basically scolded17:54
Rotwangso they dont17:55
darfoI'm not talking about dev servers. I'm talking about instructional servers. Worst kind of devs (untrained).17:55
MarcusRhow many users do you have per server?17:56
Rotwangahhh the jam eaters17:56
MarcusRor concurrent logins17:56
darfoIt varies from 100 to 1500 concurrent.17:56
darfoDepends on where they are in the curriculum.17:56
darfothe=their17:56
Rotwangdarfo: thats a lot ;O17:57
MarcusR1500 and all use gnome sounds like a nightmare to anyone :P17:57
Rotwangdarfo: have you considered buying more hardvare?17:57
Rotwanghardware*17:57
darfowe run three large Oracle servers in DNS rotary but can do nothing about them choosing a specific one.17:58
darfoAnd Gnome is politics *sigh*17:58
MarcusRoh oracle17:58
darfoI personally don't like (x)inetd because if I'm the one using the rare service17:58
darfoI have to wait for the daemon to start :(17:59
MarcusRis this enterprise level hardware17:59
darfoYes17:59
RotwangI suggest acquireing more servers17:59
darfoI'd like more servers, again politics (money)17:59
darfomy point is there is certain times (x)inetd is justified but not often18:00
MarcusRwhy couldn't the newbs have their own servers?18:00
darfoPolitics pushed for centralized services. The used to have the own.\18:00
darfo"It's more cost effective" (gag)18:01
MarcusRpfff18:01
MarcusRwell if the hardware is big enough, then maybe18:01
tilmanrmull: i had a q'n'd perl script that used stdin/stdout. inetd allowed me to avoid having to write the socket code18:02
MarcusRi remember the old AIX cluster at uni18:02
MarcusRcouldn't take any load at all18:02
MarcusRbut it was very good at processing large data18:02
MarcusRold SUNs did all the login stuff18:03
darfoWe use solaris for the login stuff. We have very large T5s for those with SPARC requirement.18:03
darfoAll the X86 stuff is 12-core with maximum ram.18:04
darfoWe provide both Linux and Solaris for the academia to teach on.18:04
darfolunchtime18:05
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cruxbot[opt.git/3.0]: bitlbee: add pre-install and rc.d script22:55
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cruxbot[opt.git/3.0]: bitlbee: use symbolic, not numeric user in .footprint23:14
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