IRC Logs for #crux Wednesday, 2014-04-02

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xveehow is everyone today05:58
nweIt?s fine with me thanks, and you?06:09
xveenot too shabby. just got back from the gym so im super tired06:10
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dxtr hmm09:33
frinnstany stongswan/ipsec experts here?10:05
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Guest32635Hey Guys. Does CRUX offer an init system which boots the services in parallel?12:39
RomsterGuest32635, there is runit on ports db you could convert it over. it's not official though but should work.12:48
Guest32635How about systemd. Any love for that?12:49
Romstercrux 3.1 will come with eudev we are avoiding systemd12:49
Guest32635I see. Because of different goals?12:50
Romstersystemd is not light weight12:51
frinnstsystemd is the emacs of inits12:51
nogagplzso what, systemd is a great operating system, too bad it lacks a decent init?12:52
RomsterSystemd, whether by design, or circumstance, is largely becoming non-optional. Inclusion of core technologies such as dbus and udev are reducing choice for linux users and developers, rather than expanding them--which is the very antithesis of the idea of Free/Open Source software.12:52
Romsterthat's like the emacs saying emacs makes a great operating system, it's a shame they forget a editor.12:53
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frinnstrhel7 will use systemd D;12:54
frinnstSo i'll have to learn it12:54
Romsteri mean hell systemd has a built in http server now?12:54
RomsterThe people, such as Adrian, who are pushing systemd as the one12:56
Romsterand only init system for debian should be physically harmed.12:56
Romsteri think the way systemd is being forced makes me more angry than all the technologies and dependencies it requires. and the fact it will kill diversity.12:57
Romsteranyways we will ......12:57
JackLFrostOld news are exciting12:58
Romsteranyways we will avoid systemd as much as possible or i personally will.12:58
JackLFrostThat httpd was in there since summer 201312:58
Romsternew news is like old news just redone12:58
JackLFrostAlso booting services in parallel is pretty easy12:58
JackLFrostPeople seem to attribute that to systemd exclusively12:59
Romsterso can runit. so why systemd again.12:59
JackLFrostBut my own bash init can do that12:59
JackLFrostbash rc script*12:59
JackLFrostMy init doesn't start services12:59
Romsterand i used to run runit and personally its not that much faster12:59
Romsterthe only real features runit had was logging and a watch dog timer on each service.13:00
JackLFrostYeah, runit was the inspiration to write my own :D13:00
Romsteri don't reboot my system that much to make parallel loading services warrant it.13:00
JackLFrostFair enough. I just implemented it because I could.13:01
Romsterif you can why not.13:01
JackLFrostAnd it doesn't make the rc too much more complicated13:01
Romsterjust means if you have a service that depends on another service you need some dependency check to see if other services it needs are running yet.13:02
Romstermaybe your changes could be looked at for crux 3.213:02
JackLFrostMy service manager handles deps, yeah13:02
JackLFrostOh, I'm not even running crux, I just like the crowd here :)13:02
Romsteras long as it's simplistic that goes along with how crux is.13:02
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JackLFrostAnd probably not. My SM is probably a bit more complex than CRUX would want13:03
Romsteri'd like to take a look13:03
JackLFrostAlso the init and rc, respecively:,
Romsteri think i did read you doing this awhile ago but never looked at the code.13:04
JackLFrostrespectively*. Yeah, I brag about my own stuff sometimes :)13:04
Romsterhow long you been with crux now? i stated on crux 2.113:04
nogagplzyou should switch to ubuntu, it's a pretty cool guy too13:10
Romsteroh please maybe when it first came out, but all the stuff i hear from it now is it's full of ads and trojans13:12
nogagplzyou used to be cool13:17
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JackLFrostRomster, >Oh, I'm not even running crux, I just like the crowd here13:23
JackLFrostI find CRUX to be very cool in concept, but a bit of a pain to use. Even if just for the fact that it's source-based.13:49
JackLFrostA full upgrade from the base install, for example, takes a long time.13:50
Romsterpain as in maintenance?13:50
Romsteroh not when you have power13:50
JackLFrostEven if you have a powerful pc13:50
Romsterany source based distro will require power to compile13:50
JackLFrostWINE builds in ~15 minutes on my i5.13:51
Romsterso what's the problem?13:51
JackLFrostLibreOffice? Firefox? Chromium? How about spending half a day waiting for those three to build13:51
Romsterme and a bunch of packagers here have done all the hard work all you have todo is prt-get depinst foo13:52
JackLFrostAgain, CRUX is cool, but I want CRUX with binary packages. So I use Arch for now :D13:52
Romsterwhich is why i host packages
JackLFrostOh, and the repos are a bit of a mess too.13:53
RomsterLibreOffice isn't even compiled.13:53
Romsterin what regard? i spend hours on the repos.13:53
Romsterand writing my own tools.13:53
JackLFrostDude, I've tried using CRUX, it ended up being a bit too much of a hassle for me, ended up using Arch. It's not a problem of the distro itself13:54
JackLFrostIt's just not my cup of tea13:54
Romsterit's just i let versions slip a bit nowadays due to real life, but i used to be on the ball on every update.13:54
nogagplzpkgmk handling things like git would be pretty cool13:54
Romsterthere are only a handful of devs and packagers, how many does arch have?13:54
nogagplzsomething like a billion13:54
JackLFrostQuite a bit more.13:55
JackLFrostI'm not attacking CRUX in any way.13:55
Romsteri've often thought of writing a pkgdl and splitting that out of pkgmk for my own testing pourposes.13:55
nogagplzthere's your weekend project then13:55
RomsterJackLFrost, ya this is jsut a discussion on what makes arch that much better13:55
JackLFrostIt's just that I have needs that CRUX doesn't meet entirely.13:56
Romstersuch as?13:56
JackLFrostArch doesn't either, but it's a bit easier to turn into what I need of it13:56
Romstermight add them to my todo list13:56
JackLFrostSuch as binary packages. So I don't end up waiting for a tool I need _right now_ to build13:56
Romsterwell a few have talked about that and ways of doing it. next feature.13:58
Romsteri also got an idea to automate package building.13:58
JackLFrostWell if CRUX starts building packages, you'll probably see a rise in user numbers13:59
Romsterbut it's a serious project with issues as we don't do hard deps on everything.13:59
JackLFrostAs well as more people to help13:59
JackLFrostYeah, that's a thing I really like about source-based distros13:59
JackLFrostNo hard deps13:59
JackLFrostBut the problem is most of the time sane defaults are ok13:59
JackLFrostYou could go the slackware route14:00
Romsteri have some ideas to try out when i get that far along.14:00
JackLFrostPackages with optional deps.14:00
Romstertht only works if oyu breakout the libs and other stuff14:01
JackLFrostWell. You can always tell people to fuck off if they chose not to install the (optional) deps14:01
JackLFrostAnd really every package manager out there has the option to ignore deps14:01
JackLFrostSo really they are always optional14:02
Romsterhow we build though id' need a flaver of eacy affected package for with and without each optional dep.14:02
JackLFrostUm. No, I'm suggesting you just yell at people if they choose to ignore dependencies.14:03
JackLFrostAnd then come to complain :D14:03
Romsterthe only way i could possibly think of this working is to compile everything with knowing what the user has on there system then storing the built package as a hash table.14:03
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Romsterthat way when they choose a certon deps that finddeps can see what the package uses and match a hash to there system.14:04
JackLFrostUsually distros build packages with sane(-ish) defaults and set deps accordingly. And if you want to change that, you need to rebuild the package or ignore deps and pray it would work14:04
Romsterbut that won't always work not all deps have hard linking and dynamically load libs at run time or call a interpreter at run time14:04
Romsteri know the difficulties.14:05
Romsterit's either install theses ports or fu or do some hard ass trickery to make it work with what they have.14:06
Romsterso soft dependencies also work.14:06
Romsterarch has no soft dependencies in crux sense, they compile with all the needed deps then split the libs out for the soft dependencies and let the user decide if they want the extra soft dependencies.14:07
JackLFrostIf you wanna talk about lib splitting, look at debian :D14:07
Romsterand each package lists if it needs a soft dependency as a requirement. thta's arch we wont go that far.14:07
JackLFrostArch isn't crazy about that14:07
Romsteri'd gladly pass.14:07
JackLFrostI've seen some packages depending on CUPS FFS14:08
JackLFrostJust for a library14:08
JackLFrostOr SAMBA. Wine has a soft dep on the whole SAMBA package14:08
JackLFrostBecause it has a lib it can use14:08
Romsteryeah and i don't list it in Depends on so it's a soft dependency.14:09
JackLFrostYou don't _have_ to split packages into smaller ones like debian does for this to work. You just have to accept that sometimes you would need to install big packages to gain a small library14:09
JackLFrostThe way arch does it is they list the deps not 100% needed on runtime in optional deps14:09
JackLFrostAnd those are pretty much sift deps14:10
JackLFrostIt has its drawbacks like some packages hard depending on systemd just because they build them against libsystemd14:10
JackLFrostAnd systemd isn't broken up into smaller packages14:10
JackLFrost(So I've made a libsystemd-standalone to account for that, but still, fuck that)14:11
JackLFrostAnd I've even gotten shit for doing it14:11
JackLFrostFor “encouraging people to break their systems”14:11
JackLFrostIt's their fucking systemd14:11
Romstersystemd is still a infiltrate entire system14:11
JackLFrostYeah, you can't even properly build it in a separate prefix14:12
JackLFrostIt wants to always be in user14:12
JackLFrostWhy it will not touch my systems as long as I can avoid it14:12
JackLFrosteudev and a separate neat install of systemd's libs does the trick14:13
JackLFrostWhich is why*14:13
Romsteri'd not even wanna touch anythign of systemd if i can help it, makes me feel dirty thinking of systemd. turning linux intosome monlithic crap14:14
Romstermakes me think of windows.14:15
Romsterlinux's diversity is what makes it good, if something sucks it'll die out and everyone will move to something else... now systemd threatens to be the only system. and forking it will be such a prick.14:15
JackLFrostYeah, same here. I do still think that providing a port/package for it is sane.14:16
Romsteras it'll touch every sub-system imaginable.14:16
Romsterand binary log file.14:16
JackLFrostBut building mpd agains it by default? WHY!?14:16
JackLFrostSeriously, in arch, mpd would not work without libsystmed14:16
Romsterit'l get to the point update systemd breaks the entire system14:16
JackLFrostI was like WAT14:16
JackLFrostHehe. There was this guy on #systemd who had his DBus crash14:17
Romsteri wananvisit this fuckface and punch him one for inventing systemd.14:17
Romsterpulseaudio was bad enough14:17
JackLFrostAnd systemctl doesn't work without DBus14:17
JackLFrostSo he couldn't restart DBus14:17
Romsterya the whole dbus crap and hal14:17
JackLFrostAnd had to reboot.14:17
JackLFrostThat was hilariously sad.14:18
Romsterhah broke the whole yu can fix nearly anything without a reboot.14:18
jaegerWhat made pulseaudio so bad? It seems like it's a newer version of esound with new features, more or less14:18
JackLFrostI can currently work in a system booted with init=/bin/bash14:18
Romsterhigh latency for one.14:18
Romsterwhy didn't they just adopt jack14:18
JackLFrostjack is wonderful >_>14:19
JackLFrostgstreamer 1.0 supports jack btw14:19
JackLFrostSo browsers will work with it without alsaloop14:19
Romster You should use ALSA instead. Pulseaudio has numerous bugs when emulating OSS and ALSA.14:20
Romsterthen there was that14:20
JackLFrostSDL is the only major thing that doesn't support jack2 right now14:20
JackLFrostAnd if that gets jack support, we could ditch pulse entirely14:20
Romsterand wine ahd it's jack driver removed oh boy did i go off at the wine devs that day14:21
jaegerjack vs. pulseaudio isn't really an apt comparison, they aren't meant to do the same thing. They have superficial similarities but that's all14:22
Romstertrue pulseaudio was to replace artsd and didn't require low latency but i find that jack does not use that many resoruces so why invent another sound daemon when jack is already superior.14:23
jaegersuperior is subjective14:24
jaegerDepends on your use case, of course14:24
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Romstertaht sthe thing with linux you have a choice. may not be a good choice though and it's anoying that all apps do nto support the same sound daemon14:25
Romstercreating a mess14:25
Romsterand forced to use something subopimal because someone thinks sound server x is better than y14:26
jaegermess is often the trade for choice :)14:26
jaegeragain, suboptimal is subjective and based on the application or use14:26
Romsteri guess what i do is not overly supported.14:26
Romsterso i give up in areas that are lacking14:27
jaegerif you're a pro audio person or DJ or something maybe JACK is better... but if you're a laptop user with no audio needs beyond notifications, youtube, or a music player, pulseaudio might be a better choice based on power saving14:27
jaegerthat's just one example14:27
Romsteri fall more into the pro side.14:27
Romsterbut i have needs of both14:28
jaegerI don't use either one currently, for reference. Just chatting14:28
jaegerI do appreciate, though, that there's a choice14:28
Romsteri like choice but not al apps support the same sound daemon that is rather irritating.14:29
Romsterit's a sad state if all apps had some common API to talk to a sound system then dropping another sound system in would be so much easier.14:33
Romsterbut the only abstraction is SDL and not everything uses that.14:33
jaegerPerhaps a good idea for a new project if it frustrates you enough14:33
Romsterwhich leads to another frustration i can barely program. else i'd be writing tons of stuff.14:34
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xveemy isp just hit me with those copyright infringment notices. i haven't even downloaded anything -__-19:42
xveetime to find a vpn19:42
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syncnxvee: how is that possible?20:24
nwehmm something is stange with my chromium.. when I trying watch some movies or image it crash..20:39
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nwean example is.. when I searching on conky on google, and change to "Image" and click on one of the image, it crash :/20:41
buskGood evening. I read on the wiki that an UEFI installation of CRUX is in fact possible, even though the official installation medium cannot be booted as such, and does not contain the dosfs tools required to prepare the ESP partition on the drive. But what is the recommended method of installing CRUX (UEFI) then? I am planning on booting from an EFI stub ("no" bootloader). Should I boot from another live cd and prepare the disks, reboot i20:43
buskinstall base system and configure UEFI stub?20:43
xveesyncn: i left my wifi open for a bit. probably someone hopped on20:57
syncnxvee: that sounds about right... shitty21:02
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xveelesson learned. never again lol21:04
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jaegerbusk: you can prepare the disk properly regardless of being booted in EFI or legacy mode, for what that's worth. As for using EFI_STUB, does your motherboard have a UEFI management tool of some sort that allows you to add or remove entries?21:55
buskWell. Actually I have just booted into CRUX21:56
buskUEFI STYLE!21:56
buskAs in, booted into my final installation of CRUX21:56
jaegernice :)21:56
buskHell yeah!21:56
buskI only did a quick kernel config though, so I have still some optimization to do!21:57
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buskOut of pure interest, does anyone here use NetworkManager?22:20
jaegerI've looked at it once or twice, don't use it regularly22:24
buskI see. It's because I am moving to CRUX. Been dual booting Arch and Gentoo, but decided CRUX perhaps was exactly what I needed22:27
buskAlways liked NetworkManager with the dispatcher scripts and stuff22:27
buskSo I just wanted to see how well it fares22:28
jaegerI imagine it'd work fine22:29
buskCool. It's a breeze when moving around and changing between WWAN and WiFi :)22:30
jaegerTrue... I've used it with ubuntu, just not much with CRUX22:35
WorksterI ended up ropping 2 ports in contrib for that to work sine alan dropped that there and i guess used the ports out of kde to get it to work22:39
Worksterso should install22:39
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buskI see there is a single package for ucode for iwlwifi. Is that because that is an execption or will I have to manually install the proper ucode for my card?22:49
buskOh and BTW. Is there anything equivelant to USE flags and MAKEOPTS in CRUX?22:50
buskSorry for all the questions... /etc/pkgmk.conf...22:51
jaegernot really, no. There's the tradeoff for the simplicity22:52
jaegerthough you can always make your own port overlay if you like22:52
buskI see... Naah, I am not into that sort of thing being a noob22:52
buskIs it possible/advisable to change the parameters passed to the make utility?23:25
buskSpecifically I am interested in the "-jN" parameter23:25
jaegerusually -jN doesn't cause problems, it's even set in pkgmk.conf23:27
buskBy default? Not on mine23:28
jaegerThe default 3.0 pkgmk.conf has it in there but it's commented23:29
jaegerline 823:29
buskNope. Not on mine. WTF23:30
buskLine 8 in mine is the start of the case statement23:30
jaegerperhaps you removed it at some point or something23:31
buskI did not. 100%23:31
jaeger# export MAKEFLAGS="-j2"23:31
buskAre you involved with the development of CRUX, jaeger?23:34
jaegerSomewhat, yes23:37
buskI see, cool :)23:41

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