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| openfbtd | By the way, about inits | 02:31 |
|---|---|---|
| openfbtd | suckless.org's sinit seems to be something that would be very in line with CRUX' ideology | 02:31 |
| cruxbot | [contrib.git/3.0]: docker: 0.9.1 -> 0.10.0 | 02:31 |
| prologic | sinit? | 02:32 |
| prologic | got a link? | 02:32 |
| openfbtd | http://tools.suckless.org/sinit/ | 02:32 |
| openfbtd | It's even simpler than runit | 02:32 |
| prologic | err | 02:33 |
| prologic | details? | 02:33 |
| openfbtd | It's an init with three functions: be an init, poweroff and reboot | 02:34 |
| prologic | web page is a pit sparse | 02:34 |
| prologic | right | 02:34 |
| prologic | :) | 02:34 |
| prologic | if that's all it does | 02:34 |
| prologic | that's practically all sysvinit does too | 02:34 |
| BitPuffin | wat they have an init system? | 02:34 |
| openfbtd | sysvinit is much more complex. | 02:34 |
| prologic | well not really | 02:35 |
| openfbtd | BitPuffin, if you can call that a system | 02:35 |
| prologic | there's also minit too I believe | 02:35 |
| prologic | that buildroot uses | 02:35 |
| BitPuffin | o_o | 02:35 |
| openfbtd | Yes, really. Look at inittab and how complex that can become | 02:35 |
| openfbtd | sysvinit has a lot of functions compared to this one. | 02:35 |
| prologic | sure | 02:35 |
| prologic | give it a go on your system | 02:36 |
| prologic | and tell us what it's like :) | 02:36 |
| openfbtd | Already have | 02:36 |
| BitPuffin | [core.git/3.1]: init -> switch to sinit | 02:36 |
| openfbtd | My home desktop is currently booted with sinit | 02:36 |
| openfbtd | Had to push some of the functionality my own init has to my rc script | 02:36 |
| openfbtd | But otherwise smooth sailing | 02:37 |
| BitPuffin | hmm | 02:37 |
| BitPuffin | well the less the init system does | 02:37 |
| BitPuffin | the better kinda | 02:37 |
| openfbtd | My reasons to switch exactly. | 02:37 |
| openfbtd | And my init is a bash script, so | 02:37 |
| openfbtd | That's not ideal | 02:37 |
| BitPuffin | lol | 02:37 |
| BitPuffin | :) | 02:37 |
| openfbtd | https://github.com/fbt/spark | 02:38 |
| openfbtd | But I like sinit better | 02:38 |
| openfbtd | It's dumb as bricks, so it pushes all the actual functionality to other entities | 02:38 |
| openfbtd | So the init in my system is now truly dumb. | 02:39 |
| openfbtd | The rc script does all the configuration and the service manager handles services | 02:39 |
| prologic | so you have sinit runnint on crux? | 02:39 |
| prologic | what rc changes were required if any? | 02:39 |
| openfbtd | Nope, arch | 02:39 |
| prologic | oh | 02:39 |
| prologic | poo | 02:39 |
| prologic | you suck :) | 02:39 |
| openfbtd | :D | 02:39 |
| BitPuffin | :/ | 02:40 |
| BitPuffin | haha | 02:40 |
| openfbtd | My rc script is this: https://github.com/fbt/spark-rc | 02:40 |
| openfbtd | I've pushed some functionality from spark's example scripts to the rc | 02:40 |
| openfbtd | But haven't pushed them to the repo yet | 02:40 |
| openfbtd | I'm considering making my own init dumber as a result | 02:40 |
| BitPuffin | hmm well | 02:41 |
| BitPuffin | crux rc.conf is nicer :D | 02:41 |
| openfbtd | That is open to interpretation. | 02:41 |
| openfbtd | I personally like my rc.conf like it is. | 02:42 |
| BitPuffin | well just that you do '' around the services | 02:42 |
| openfbtd | That's just a matter of stylr | 02:43 |
| openfbtd | style* | 02:43 |
| BitPuffin | I'm not sure using alternative initsystems are nice though, I didn't even consider changing the init system on arch. But even if I did it would suck with the package system because they package things with systemd scripts | 02:43 |
| openfbtd | I like my arrays quoted, it's not mandratory | 02:43 |
| prologic | stop talking and port sinit to crux for us | 02:43 |
| BitPuffin | yeah I guess | 02:43 |
| prologic | complete with a ported rc | 02:43 |
| prologic | :) | 02:43 |
| BitPuffin | btw | 02:43 |
| BitPuffin | I've always wondered | 02:43 |
| BitPuffin | what does rc stand for | 02:43 |
| openfbtd | runtime configuration | 02:44 |
| BitPuffin | aha | 02:44 |
| BitPuffin | it all makes so much sense now | 02:44 |
| openfbtd | prologic, sinit is dumb as bricks, as I've said, writing a port would be quite easy. An rc... I've used my own set of tools on CRUX before | 02:45 |
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| BitPuffin | openfbtd: so you are saying you used systemd before it was cool? :P | 02:45 |
| openfbtd | The only problem I've encountered is changing the service init scripts to conform to the /{bin,sbin} /usr/{bin,sbin} separation | 02:45 |
| openfbtd | But my service init scripts are scripts for my own service manager | 02:46 |
| openfbtd | So that's another tale | 02:46 |
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| BitPuffin | well arch doesn't even have sbin does it? | 02:46 |
| openfbtd | BitPuffin, I've tried using systemd when Arch switched to it, didn't like the way it does things, wrote my own set of tools to boot and mantain a system | 02:46 |
| BitPuffin | anymore at least | 02:46 |
| openfbtd | Arch has it's system PATH merged into /usr/bin | 02:47 |
| BitPuffin | openfbtd: then why are you still using arch xD | 02:47 |
| openfbtd | Everything else is symlinks | 02:47 |
| openfbtd | Because otherwise I'm pretty comfortable with the distro | 02:47 |
| BitPuffin | well pacman is pretty nice | 02:48 |
| BitPuffin | but they have packaged some things really dumb | 02:48 |
| openfbtd | AUR also. | 02:48 |
| BitPuffin | yeah | 02:48 |
| BitPuffin | well crux is basically aur only :P | 02:48 |
| prologic | I think you miss my point :) | 02:48 |
| prologic | no-one else is going to try sinit | 02:48 |
| openfbtd | You will never have ideally packaged packages | 02:48 |
| prologic | unless you create a port for it | 02:48 |
| prologic | and replacement rc | 02:48 |
| prologic | because I for one don't personally see the gain | 02:48 |
| prologic | "if it works don't fix it" | 02:49 |
| BitPuffin | openfbtd: I know but on crux it would make sense to make my own port | 02:49 |
| prologic | for instnace | 02:49 |
| openfbtd | meh, I'm not ready to commit to mantaining ports for CRUX unless I use CRUX | 02:49 |
| BitPuffin | openfbtd: making my own PKGBUILD for qt 4 doesn't really make sense | 02:49 |
| prologic | why would I waste a whole afternoon on a simpler init | 02:49 |
| prologic | that gains me nothing? | 02:49 |
| openfbtd | You probably wouldn't? | 02:49 |
| prologic | well of course :) | 02:49 |
| prologic | it's a nice idea and all | 02:49 |
| prologic | but | 02:49 |
| prologic | :) | 02:49 |
| openfbtd | I was just saying that it could be a nice addition to the next release maybe or something. | 02:49 |
| openfbtd | Just an idle thought | 02:50 |
| prologic | probably | 02:50 |
| prologic | but it requires someone to put the effort in | 02:50 |
| prologic | right now I'm putting my effort into docker+crux | 02:50 |
| BitPuffin | I guess the solution to system v is to replace it with something simpler, rather than something infinetely more complex (systemd) | 02:50 |
| BitPuffin | prologic: ah cool, I'm gonna run docker + crux on my server | 02:51 |
| openfbtd | Yes. Maybe someone would look into it, try it on their system and write the necessary ports. I'm not a CRUX user currently, so I wouldn't do a good job of mantaining a port | 02:51 |
| openfbtd | or several | 02:51 |
| BitPuffin | so that I can isolate stuff | 02:51 |
| openfbtd | Also the thing with CRUX and the port repos all over the place is pretty horrible | 02:51 |
| BitPuffin | has anyone written a tool for managing that? | 02:52 |
| prologic | bbs - rebooting | 02:52 |
| BitPuffin | otherwise I might | 02:52 |
| openfbtd | BitPuffin, you've mentioned CRUX's port system being basically AUR — no. AUR is one place, a huge number of custom unmanaged unsigned repos from different people is a mess | 02:52 |
| BitPuffin | openfbtd: I don't mind having multiple port repos | 02:52 |
| openfbtd | To be fair, AUR is also unsigned. | 02:53 |
| BitPuffin | It's just fetching the file that is pretty annoying | 02:53 |
| BitPuffin | and searching on the web interface | 02:53 |
| BitPuffin | openfbtd: well yeah, crux ports is distributed aur | 02:53 |
| BitPuffin | openfbtd: I can say that I trust this user, rather than I trust all of AUR | 02:53 |
| BitPuffin | much better | 02:53 |
| BitPuffin | still think we should have signed pkgfiles though | 02:54 |
| openfbtd | Depends. I was still reading all the ports when I was using CRUX. | 02:54 |
| BitPuffin | openfbtd: well you should do that on arch as well | 02:54 |
| openfbtd | I do read PKGBUILDS from AUR, yes | 02:54 |
| openfbtd | But most of the packages are managed and signed | 02:54 |
| openfbtd | AUR is a last resort type of thing for an arch user | 02:54 |
| BitPuffin | plus, the PKGBUILDs in arch are messy | 02:55 |
| BitPuffin | they used to be pretty much identical to crux | 02:55 |
| openfbtd | Yeah, I think they went overboard with the feature set | 02:55 |
| BitPuffin | but then they goofed up | 02:55 |
| openfbtd | You can still write very simple PKGBUILDS | 02:56 |
| openfbtd | But they support so much stuff that can be done in them | 02:56 |
| openfbtd | Still not deb-srcs though :D | 02:56 |
| BitPuffin | yeah well nobody really writes simple ones though haha | 02:57 |
| prologic | yes | 02:58 |
| prologic | I run docker+crux servers | 02:58 |
| prologic | well infrastructure that is | 02:58 |
| prologic | I'm a big fan of docker | 02:58 |
| prologic | and crux :) | 02:58 |
| prologic | so yeah | 02:58 |
| openfbtd | BitPuffin, https://github.com/fbt/pkgbuilds/blob/master/spark-init/PKGBUILD | 02:59 |
| openfbtd | :) | 02:59 |
| BitPuffin | openfbtd: isn't that your repo though? | 02:59 |
| openfbtd | That PKGBUILD is also in AUR | 03:00 |
| BitPuffin | so it doesn't count :P | 03:00 |
| openfbtd | I just have a git repo for my PKGBUILDs | 03:00 |
| openfbtd | Dunno why. | 03:00 |
| BitPuffin | tell me last time you saw a nice pkgbuild that you didn't write yourself | 03:01 |
| openfbtd | https://aur.archlinux.org/packages/si/sinit/PKGBUILD | 03:02 |
| BitPuffin | well that's by someone who likes suckless philosophy | 03:02 |
| BitPuffin | prologic: for what? :o | 03:04 |
| prologic | sorry what? | 03:05 |
| BitPuffin | prologic: what do you run the infrastructure for? :) | 03:05 |
| prologic | oh | 03:05 |
| prologic | mostly all of my own stuff | 03:05 |
| prologic | websites, irc bots, services | 03:06 |
| prologic | name servers | 03:06 |
| BitPuffin | ah | 03:06 |
| BitPuffin | sweet! | 03:06 |
| prologic | I'm also using Docker for work more and more | 03:06 |
| prologic | but it's slow going - red tape and bureaucracy et all | 03:06 |
| prologic | search index.docker.io for prologic | 03:06 |
| prologic | I have published quite a few images already | 03:06 |
| prologic | and I maintain the crux stadnard library image | 03:07 |
| prologic | i.e: docker run -i -t crux /bin/bash | 03:07 |
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| BitPuffin | prologic: and here I thought I was gonna have to create my own image :) | 03:09 |
| BitPuffin | what's the difference between crux and docker-crux | 03:10 |
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| prologic | no no | 03:13 |
| prologic | don't be silly :) | 03:13 |
| prologic | i've done all the hard work | 03:13 |
| prologic | crux is a fully supported Docker platform | 03:13 |
| prologic | and CRUX in Docker is well already there | 03:13 |
| prologic | as well as CRUX in Docker in CRUX | 03:13 |
| prologic | :) | 03:13 |
| prologic | or the other way around | 03:13 |
| prologic | err | 03:14 |
| prologic | docker-crux is just the name of my repo where I maintain the image | 03:14 |
| prologic | it's published to the Docker image std. lib as just "crux" | 03:14 |
| prologic | like docker run -i -t centos /bin/bash | 03:14 |
| prologic | :) | 03:14 |
| BitPuffin | hmm | 03:19 |
| BitPuffin | prologic: question is though, is it really necessary to have a full crux installation if the host is already crux? | 03:19 |
| jaeger | cruxception | 03:19 |
| jaeger | we have to crux deeper! | 03:19 |
| prologic | lol | 03:19 |
| prologic | BitPuffin, no it isn't | 03:19 |
| prologic | but that's not really the point now is it? :) | 03:19 |
| BitPuffin | nope :P | 03:20 |
| prologic | images all share a base image nayway | 03:20 |
| prologic | so if you use crux as your base imag for your apps | 03:20 |
| prologic | you won't be wasting disk space | 03:20 |
| prologic | because of the union file system that docker uses by default | 03:20 |
| BitPuffin | prologic: well it would still be 2 cruxes rather than one lol | 03:20 |
| prologic | btrfs, devmapper or aufs backends | 03:20 |
| prologic | I use btrfs here on my desktop | 03:20 |
| BitPuffin | pfff btrfs :P | 03:20 |
| prologic | yeah that's still not the point | 03:21 |
| prologic | you're not running a vm | 03:21 |
| prologic | it's just a rootfs in a container | 03:21 |
| BitPuffin | yup | 03:21 |
| BitPuffin | well I mean | 03:21 |
| prologic | run up a few apps that are Dockerized | 03:21 |
| prologic | and you'll get the idea :) | 03:21 |
| BitPuffin | can I have the containers use stuff from the host as well? | 03:21 |
| prologic | e.g: get docker up on your crux host | 03:21 |
| prologic | and try: | 03:21 |
| BitPuffin | I mean some things that I specifically allow | 03:21 |
| prologic | docker run -d prologic/kdb | 03:21 |
| BitPuffin | I dunno what that would be | 03:21 |
| BitPuffin | but yea | 03:21 |
| prologic | yes | 03:21 |
| openfbtd | There is a very good reason source-based distros with rolling packages aren't used in production | 03:21 |
| prologic | that's called volumes | 03:21 |
| prologic | -v host_path:container_path | 03:22 |
| openfbtd | Or just distros with rolling packages | 03:22 |
| prologic | I disagree with that but anyway :) | 03:22 |
| BitPuffin | I disagree | 03:22 |
| prologic | you're obviously not a developer :) | 03:22 |
| prologic | if you've ever developed in say Python | 03:22 |
| openfbtd | I'm an administrator, yes. | 03:22 |
| prologic | and end up compiling Python from source on CentOS anyway | 03:22 |
| BitPuffin | plus | 03:23 |
| openfbtd | That's desktops/dev stands | 03:23 |
| BitPuffin | crux is half rolling | 03:23 |
| prologic | then binary/non-rolling distros are a completely waste of time | 03:23 |
| openfbtd | Using CRUX on all of your infrastructure would be ill-advised. | 03:23 |
| openfbtd | But hey, it's your infrastructure | 03:23 |
| BitPuffin | I don't think it would be | 03:23 |
| prologic | I doubt you could say that to me with a striaght face | 03:24 |
| prologic | :) | 03:24 |
| prologic | you're "ill-advised" is quite subjective at best | 03:24 |
| prologic | based on your experience | 03:24 |
| BitPuffin | I wanna have the same thing on my server as on my personal computer | 03:24 |
| prologic | seeing as you don't use crux in production yourself | 03:24 |
| prologic | how would you know? :) | 03:24 |
| BitPuffin | so for a while I ran arch on my server | 03:24 |
| prologic | just say'n | 03:24 |
| BitPuffin | but that turned out to be retarded because they don't package things very well | 03:24 |
| openfbtd | Yes, because I've never seen source-based distros in production. Obviously. | 03:24 |
| prologic | classifying crux as a source-based sitro is well naive ihmo | 03:25 |
| jaeger | I used to work at a place that used gentoo for nearly all its infrastructure. It was quite smooth, actually. You just have to set things up correctly. | 03:25 |
| prologic | everything comes/started from some kind of source | 03:25 |
| prologic | indeed | 03:25 |
| BitPuffin | so if I wanted to run murmur for example, it depends on qt4 CORE! but in arch there is only qt4, rather than splitting it up to separate packages like it really is. That means that in order to run murmur I would have to install ALL of qt 4 which in turn pulls in x11 and a bunch of input stuff and I don't even know | 03:25 |
| BitPuffin | so much shit | 03:25 |
| prologic | thanks jaeger :) | 03:25 |
| openfbtd | jaeger, and how fast and well are park-wide updates? | 03:25 |
| prologic | I personally have been running CRUX on the Desktop for over 12 years now | 03:25 |
| prologic | _as well_ as on all my servers | 03:25 |
| prologic | but yeah | 03:25 |
| prologic | who cares | 03:26 |
| prologic | :) | 03:26 |
| BitPuffin | well | 03:26 |
| BitPuffin | you can do the upates on one box | 03:26 |
| BitPuffin | and then send the binary pkgs around | 03:26 |
| jaeger | I built updates on a single machine and pushed the built binaries out to the rest, it was pretty quick aside from that single host's build time | 03:26 |
| BitPuffin | no biggie | 03:26 |
| prologic | indeed | 03:26 |
| prologic | and that's usually what you do | 03:26 |
| prologic | if all the machines have identical architetures | 03:26 |
| BitPuffin | even if you couldn't taking a few minutes extra is no biggie | 03:26 |
| prologic | watch out for crux 3.1 | 03:27 |
| openfbtd | Seriously. You are explaining local binary repos to me. | 03:27 |
| prologic | I'm planning on building a service to build binary packages | 03:27 |
| prologic | and serve this up as a service | 03:27 |
| prologic | via pkg-get (I think) | 03:27 |
| prologic | why? | 03:27 |
| prologic | because I want it for my own stuff too :) | 03:27 |
| BitPuffin | sounds nice | 03:27 |
| prologic | anyway | 03:27 |
| jaeger | I don't really get the point of this argument, was just commenting. Will butt back out now. :) | 03:27 |
| prologic | this debate is pointless | 03:27 |
| prologic | :) | 03:27 |
| BitPuffin | openfbtd: well you sound like you need it explained to you kinda | 03:27 |
| BitPuffin | if you don't think a source based distro can work on a server | 03:28 |
| BitPuffin | can't | 03:28 |
| BitPuffin | * | 03:28 |
| openfbtd | My concerns are more in the area of rolling-release packages and the instability that poses. And the point of needing a building and testing infrastructure. | 03:28 |
| openfbtd | I _know_ a source-based distro can work as a server OS | 03:28 |
| prologic | yeah | 03:28 |
| prologic | you clearly are _not_ a developer | 03:28 |
| prologic | :) | 03:28 |
| openfbtd | I just don't think it's worth the time. | 03:28 |
| prologic | you think in sysadmin terms | 03:28 |
| BitPuffin | well, you still need to test updates on a "stable" release as well | 03:28 |
| prologic | of what'e easier for you as a sysadmin | 03:28 |
| prologic | stability doesn't mean the same thing for you as it does for me | 03:29 |
| BitPuffin | I trust upstream | 03:29 |
| prologic | building and testing is far more impoartnt for me than it is for you | 03:29 |
| BitPuffin | and err | 03:29 |
| prologic | but *meh* | 03:29 |
| BitPuffin | I'm a developer | 03:29 |
| BitPuffin | lol | 03:29 |
| prologic | I don't :) | 03:29 |
| BitPuffin | well I don't mean I blindly trust it, I will test it first | 03:29 |
| prologic | a yum upadte | 03:29 |
| prologic | could just as easily break my app | 03:29 |
| prologic | as a prt-get sysup | 03:29 |
| openfbtd | Where I work, we (mostly) trust debian's upstream these days. Testing is still domne, but at least we don't need to spend half a day rebuilding a new release. | 03:29 |
| BitPuffin | but generally they test things before they call it a release you know | 03:30 |
| prologic | yeah the point though is | 03:30 |
| prologic | that half a day you spend rebuilding | 03:30 |
| BitPuffin | prologic: well I meant upstream as in the projects themselves, thought debian like stuff was called downstream | 03:30 |
| prologic | you're only saving because Debian devs have done it for you | 03:30 |
| prologic | there really is no difference here | 03:30 |
| prologic | Debian or CRUX | 03:30 |
| openfbtd | But yeah, there are different usecases. That's why I'm saying that rolling distros work well on desktops and development stands. | 03:30 |
| prologic | someone has to build packages | 03:30 |
| prologic | or "something" | 03:30 |
| openfbtd | Not on, say, a hosting | 03:30 |
| jaeger | This is still a subjective argument | 03:30 |
| BitPuffin | well | 03:31 |
| prologic | indeed | 03:31 |
| jaeger | maybe you guys should agree to disagree | 03:31 |
| prologic | I'm backing out | 03:31 |
| prologic | lunch time :) | 03:31 |
| BitPuffin | you still need the same shit that you have on the development machine on the server | 03:31 |
| prologic | sorry openfbtd | 03:31 |
| prologic | you are of course absolutely right | 03:31 |
| prologic | :) | 03:31 |
| prologic | enjoy! | 03:31 |
| BitPuffin | like if the development machine has python 3.x on it | 03:31 |
| openfbtd | I don't even see this as an argument really. | 03:31 |
| jaeger | prologic: no need to be petulant | 03:31 |
| BitPuffin | you won't have fun putting it on a RHEL server | 03:31 |
| prologic | hehe | 03:31 |
| prologic | like you said jaeger | 03:31 |
| prologic | pointless debate ;) | 03:31 |
| prologic | I think I said that too | 03:31 |
| prologic | it doesn't matter really | 03:31 |
| prologic | ihmo | 03:31 |
| openfbtd | Now. Go to sleep or work on my init and rc. | 03:32 |
| prologic | I sometimes have these very debates with a sysadmin that travels on the bus to my workplace :) | 03:32 |
| BitPuffin | hahaha | 03:32 |
| BitPuffin | well | 03:32 |
| openfbtd | (both of which I would never put on a production server for reasons) | 03:33 |
| prologic | we're a RHEL enterprise at work | 03:33 |
| prologic | whatever that means :) | 03:33 |
| BitPuffin | the usecase for RHEL-like distros is basically companies with big tech debt | 03:33 |
| openfbtd | There's also a question of security btw. | 03:33 |
| BitPuffin | ie they run the same thing that they have been running for years and years | 03:34 |
| openfbtd | All debates about anything are null and void till CRUX has signed repos | 03:34 |
| openfbtd | I will never allow my infrastructure to have anything that doesn't have basic security measures | 03:34 |
| BitPuffin | yeah absolutely, I mean malicious debian developer could modify the sources before building + signing it, and since you can't verify that the source is the same as the built package the security is worse | 03:34 |
| BitPuffin | so there is a big concern with a binary based distro | 03:35 |
| openfbtd | My own personal infrastrucure can work because I can check thing for myself | 03:35 |
| openfbtd | On a larger scale — NO NO NO NO NO | 03:35 |
| openfbtd | things* infrastructure* | 03:35 |
| openfbtd | And even then my main servers are on debian. | 03:36 |
| openfbtd | I clench my teeth and deal with deb-srcs :< | 03:36 |
| prologic | I don't see how signing is any better than ssh keys tbh | 03:36 |
| prologic | sorry | 03:36 |
| BitPuffin | well I think we should have signed pkgfiles but that's another story | 03:36 |
| prologic | I don't | 03:37 |
| prologic | that's more work for no gain | 03:37 |
| BitPuffin | I still think it's way more secure to have unsigned pkgfiles and build from source than it is to blindly accept a signed binary from some dude | 03:37 |
| openfbtd | From some dude — maybe. But debian mantainers have enough good will to accept binaries from them. | 03:38 |
| BitPuffin | prologic: there is gain, someone who compromises a server that hosts a ports repo could modify the build script. With signing they would also have to compromise the key location of the port author | 03:38 |
| prologic | no | 03:38 |
| prologic | you're talking about two things there | 03:38 |
| prologic | someone can't compromise the ports | 03:39 |
| prologic | because they are housed in git | 03:39 |
| prologic | you'd see the new commits | 03:39 |
| prologic | and strip them | 03:39 |
| prologic | I do however see the point of signing binary packages | 03:39 |
| prologic | the resulting build | 03:39 |
| BitPuffin | prologic: I'm not talking about core/xorg/opt etc | 03:39 |
| prologic | and keeping an equivilent of an .md5sum | 03:39 |
| BitPuffin | prologic: I'm talking about jaegers ports for example | 03:39 |
| prologic | but for the "built" package | 03:39 |
| prologic | yes ok | 03:40 |
| prologic | but that's 3rd-party | 03:40 |
| BitPuffin | exactly | 03:40 |
| BitPuffin | and I want to say | 03:40 |
| BitPuffin | I trust this third party | 03:40 |
| prologic | I don't think we should impose such things on 3rd-aprties | 03:40 |
| BitPuffin | but I don't trust that the third party can get compromised | 03:40 |
| prologic | you should trust this guy | 03:40 |
| prologic | because you do | 03:40 |
| BitPuffin | can't | 03:40 |
| prologic | well you can | 03:40 |
| BitPuffin | well there is a difference | 03:40 |
| prologic | if you can trust my pports for example | 03:40 |
| prologic | I host them in a dvcs | 03:40 |
| prologic | you can verify them against my repo | 03:41 |
| prologic | if you really want to | 03:41 |
| openfbtd | I can trust you, but I can't trust your system | 03:41 |
| BitPuffin | I can't say I trust his pkgfiles without saying I trust his server | 03:41 |
| BitPuffin | and that's the problem | 03:41 |
| openfbtd | Every system is potentially vulnerable. | 03:41 |
| prologic | you two are far too paranoid | 03:41 |
| prologic | honestly | 03:41 |
| prologic | if you can't trust a simple Pkgfile from me | 03:41 |
| prologic | that's hosted in my bitbucket repo | 03:41 |
| openfbtd | Heardbleed? | 03:41 |
| prologic | of which I only have access to | 03:41 |
| BitPuffin | prologic: yeah but that's too manual, I think there should be a signature or something and it should be automated in prt-get | 03:41 |
| prologic | then who can you trust? | 03:41 |
| BitPuffin | what does heartbleed have to do with anything we are talking about | 03:42 |
| openfbtd | I'll just hand a huge “heartbleed” banner over the conversation about paranoia | 03:42 |
| BitPuffin | 911?!?!? | 03:42 |
| prologic | as soon as you make it automated | 03:42 |
| prologic | you're moving thr trust to a system | 03:42 |
| openfbtd | hang* | 03:42 |
| prologic | and if that system is comprised | 03:42 |
| prologic | so is the trust | 03:42 |
| jaeger | here's a thought: if you really want something like this, implement it and see how it goes | 03:42 |
| BitPuffin | Jonestown?? | 03:42 |
| openfbtd | BitPuffin, my point is you can't be too careful | 03:42 |
| BitPuffin | prologic: well not really | 03:42 |
| prologic | I'm with jaeger on this one | 03:42 |
| prologic | design it | 03:43 |
| prologic | implement it | 03:43 |
| prologic | use it | 03:43 |
| prologic | and share it with us | 03:43 |
| BitPuffin | prologic: sure if my prt-get build is not authentic then maybe | 03:43 |
| BitPuffin | yeah I agree as well | 03:43 |
| BitPuffin | I might do it eventually | 03:43 |
| BitPuffin | don't give me that attitude :D | 03:43 |
| prologic | I think I can safely say that all crux users | 03:43 |
| prologic | have almost never had an issue with trust | 03:43 |
| prologic | or security when it comes to isntalling/updating software | 03:43 |
| prologic | but hey | 03:43 |
| BitPuffin | I'm just arguing that it is a good idea | 03:44 |
| prologic | that's because we either check things ourselves | 03:44 |
| prologic | or we trust one another | 03:44 |
| BitPuffin | yeah | 03:44 |
| BitPuffin | and this would be a better way to say I trust you | 03:44 |
| prologic | but perhaps that's also why many of us that do have 3rd-party repos and ports | 03:44 |
| BitPuffin | but not your server | 03:44 |
| BitPuffin | which is good | 03:44 |
| prologic | have lots of duplicates | 03:44 |
| BitPuffin | that way we probably wouldn't even have to check the pkgfiles | 03:44 |
| prologic | because we _don't_ trust the other person | 03:44 |
| prologic | so we clone the their port | 03:44 |
| BitPuffin | in fact I do trust crux users | 03:44 |
| prologic | edit it | 03:44 |
| prologic | check it | 03:44 |
| prologic | then use it | 03:44 |
| BitPuffin | and usually don't check | 03:44 |
| BitPuffin | :P | 03:44 |
| BitPuffin | so don't call me paranoid | 03:44 |
| prologic | I know I'm stupid enough to do this | 03:44 |
| openfbtd | prologic, for two years people trusted a vulnerable library. Evrything is potentially vulnerable. | 03:45 |
| openfbtd | Never trust a single system completely. | 03:45 |
| BitPuffin | a pkgfile is highly unlikely to be "vulnerable" | 03:45 |
| openfbtd | That said, additional security layers help. | 03:45 |
| prologic | and with additional layers | 03:45 |
| prologic | comes additional complexity | 03:45 |
| prologic | and effort and time | 03:45 |
| openfbtd | BitPuffin, and asking users to read every single pkgfile is silly | 03:45 |
| prologic | you have to weight it up | 03:46 |
| prologic | but by all means | 03:46 |
| prologic | build us something | 03:46 |
| prologic | try it out and let us know | 03:46 |
| BitPuffin | it's not entirely unlikely that it could be compromised. | 03:46 |
| openfbtd | It's a way to do it, don't get me wrong. But it's silly. | 03:46 |
| BitPuffin | however crux is a pretty small target | 03:46 |
| BitPuffin | so I don't really worry | 03:46 |
| prologic | perhaps it could be as simple as | 03:46 |
| prologic | pkgsign Pkgfile | 03:46 |
| prologic | *meh* | 03:46 |
| prologic | if you make it hard people won't do it | 03:46 |
| BitPuffin | openfbtd: yeah and that's why signing the pkgfiles would put that pressure off if you trust that the user writes good pkgfiles | 03:47 |
| openfbtd | prologic, which is why I'm pretty sure people don't read updated pkgfiles | 03:47 |
| openfbtd | Or at least most of them don't. | 03:47 |
| BitPuffin | prologic: well then prt-get could go "Hey dawg this pkgfile is unsigned, would you like to check the pkgfile?" | 03:47 |
| prologic | yeah no I do | 03:47 |
| openfbtd | Add that to the build times and you end up working for your distro, not the other way around. | 03:48 |
| prologic | anyway | 03:48 |
| prologic | I'm gonna go have lunch | 03:48 |
| BitPuffin | it could even go ahead and build in the background | 03:48 |
| BitPuffin | for performance | 03:48 |
| prologic | this is still all pointless without something to design, implement, test and use | 03:48 |
| prologic | :) | 03:48 |
| BitPuffin | just doesn't have to install | 03:48 |
| BitPuffin | Yeah | 03:48 |
| BitPuffin | Well no | 03:48 |
| BitPuffin | it's good to discuss | 03:48 |
| BitPuffin | before blindly going balls in | 03:48 |
| openfbtd | Discussion is also healthy. I would have done so many things wrong in my own scrips if I wasn't discussing changes with my friends and colleagues | 03:49 |
| BitPuffin | it's like making a baby before discussing it with your partner | 03:49 |
| BitPuffin | not a good idea | 03:49 |
| openfbtd | Like the time I've expanded my init's functionality | 03:50 |
| openfbtd | INSTEAD OF PUSHING THAT TO THE PROPER ENTITIES | 03:50 |
| openfbtd | And right now I'm looking at the piece of code that is a watchdog function | 03:50 |
| openfbtd | And feel like I'm slowly becoming Lennart | 03:50 |
| BitPuffin | nobody wants to become Lennart | 03:51 |
| openfbtd | IKR | 03:51 |
| openfbtd | So I'm thinking how should I approach the issue. | 03:51 |
| BitPuffin | It's simple | 03:51 |
| BitPuffin | every time I am faced with a decision I just ask myself "What would Lennart Pottering not do?" | 03:52 |
| openfbtd | Remove the function, push agetty spawning to the rc or even the service manager | 03:52 |
| openfbtd | I've already basically done that actually | 03:52 |
| openfbtd | But now I need to properly write it, not hack it in | 03:52 |
| openfbtd | So obviously I need to write my own agetty | 03:53 |
| openfbtd | And merge it into my init | 03:53 |
| openfbtd | :D | 03:53 |
| openfbtd | BASH all the things! | 03:53 |
| BitPuffin | I wish there was a simple and beautiful bash we could use instead | 03:54 |
| prologic | Anyone got 32bit chrome port? | 03:56 |
| BitPuffin | for what? | 03:56 |
| prologic | my media box runs crux 2.7 i686 | 03:57 |
| BitPuffin | ahh | 03:57 |
| BitPuffin | dayum | 03:57 |
| BitPuffin | prologic: why not just build crux 3.0 from source then | 03:58 |
| BitPuffin | or wait for 3.1 | 03:58 |
| BitPuffin | in the name of being a badass | 03:58 |
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| prologic | because upgrading from 2.7 to 3.0 or 3.1 is all too hard | 04:01 |
| prologic | it's easier to rebuild | 04:01 |
| prologic | plus my media box's hw is a bit broken | 04:02 |
| prologic | it's bios hard freezes sometimes (once per month os so) | 04:02 |
| prologic | so I'd realyl like to rebuild the whole thing :) | 04:02 |
| BitPuffin | lol | 04:03 |
| BitPuffin | yeah | 04:03 |
| BitPuffin | do it | 04:03 |
| prologic | no time atm :) | 04:06 |
| prologic | it's one of those things | 04:06 |
| BitPuffin | yeah | 04:06 |
| prologic | we have scheduling that menas there is very little windows to rebuild it | 04:06 |
| prologic | eventually I'll rebuild it with a new one whilst the old one is still runing | 04:06 |
| prologic | then swap them over | 04:06 |
| BitPuffin | yup | 04:07 |
| prologic | all sorted | 04:22 |
| prologic | for now | 04:22 |
| prologic | very old version of chrome | 04:22 |
| prologic | but oh well | 04:22 |
| BitPuffin | prologic: why do you have chrome on your media box anyway :P | 04:22 |
| prologic | why not? | 04:33 |
| prologic | it's used for Youtube, Hulu, ABC iView, Ten Play and SBS on Demand | 04:34 |
| BitPuffin | prologic: xbmc | 04:35 |
| prologic | xbmc doesn't support tv tuners | 04:36 |
| prologic | in fact it has to rely on a backend like mythtv anyway | 04:36 |
| prologic | so I don't see the point in all it's fanincess :) | 04:36 |
| BitPuffin | well | 04:36 |
| BitPuffin | still nicer to have it all in one place with a media box :P | 04:36 |
| prologic | I will however (one day soon) be replacing my frontend with a MiniX X5 mini android tv box | 04:36 |
| prologic | but I will still use MythTV | 04:36 |
| BitPuffin | I haven't sorted my media needs yet (as I haven't moved out yet) but will probably do so by having a NAS, and have an xbmc cubox or something get the media from there | 04:37 |
| BitPuffin | and then intall the youtube apps etc | 04:38 |
| BitPuffin | should suffice | 04:38 |
| BitPuffin | would be cool to have it all running on crux | 04:38 |
| BitPuffin | but perhaps freenas is better for the NAS. I dunno. Still though, crux all the things :P | 04:38 |
| prologic | yeah I'm effectivelly going to do the same thing | 04:38 |
| prologic | but with Android | 04:38 |
| prologic | XBMC just doesn't cut it for me | 04:38 |
| BitPuffin | even gonna attempt making a crux router | 04:38 |
| prologic | for several reasons | 04:38 |
| BitPuffin | prologic: well generally with xbmc there is a way | 04:39 |
| BitPuffin | for example | 04:39 |
| BitPuffin | if you want chromecast like functionality | 04:39 |
| BitPuffin | http://xbeammc.com/ | 04:39 |
| prologic | yeah | 04:41 |
| prologic | but some of it I feel is quite hacky :) | 04:41 |
| prologic | so I'm going down the Android TV box route | 04:41 |
| BitPuffin | well | 04:41 |
| prologic | I already have several Android devices and quite like them | 04:41 |
| BitPuffin | that's fine | 04:41 |
| BitPuffin | but you will always have this voice in the back of your head | 04:42 |
| prologic | but in the end I'll also Dockerize my MythTV backend setup | 04:42 |
| BitPuffin | reminding you that the box isn't running crux | 04:42 |
| prologic | into separate contains | 04:42 |
| BitPuffin | xD | 04:42 |
| prologic | I have a little 22RU rack cabinet int he server room | 04:42 |
| prologic | nah | 04:42 |
| prologic | crux isn't the end all and be all | 04:42 |
| prologic | :) | 04:42 |
| BitPuffin | :P | 04:42 |
| prologic | but I do use it exclusively on desktopa and servers | 04:43 |
| BitPuffin | well | 04:43 |
| BitPuffin | I will probably never run it on my phone | 04:43 |
| prologic | and I may put it on an ASUS Transformer Book TRIO soon too | 04:43 |
| BitPuffin | or will I | 04:43 |
| prologic | planning on buying one | 04:43 |
| BitPuffin | nununununuuuuuu | 04:43 |
| prologic | nah | 04:43 |
| prologic | there just isn't good enough mobile phone software for Linux(es) | 04:43 |
| BitPuffin | unfortunately yeah | 04:43 |
| prologic | IHMO | 04:44 |
| prologic | unless you rip off OpenMoko software | 04:44 |
| prologic | or similar | 04:44 |
| prologic | it'll come | 04:44 |
| prologic | but it's not here yet AFAIK | 04:44 |
| prologic | when it does come | 04:44 |
| prologic | you could in tehory run up CRUX on your phone | 04:44 |
| BitPuffin | then hell yes | 04:44 |
| BitPuffin | :P | 04:44 |
| prologic | and install the "right" phone ports | 04:44 |
| BitPuffin | yup | 04:44 |
| BitPuffin | pretty nice | 04:44 |
| BitPuffin | well tbh | 04:44 |
| prologic | the cloest thing to this right now | 04:44 |
| prologic | is unlocked/rooted Android | 04:44 |
| prologic | which I have in tablet and phone | 04:44 |
| BitPuffin | it wouldn't be that hard to write a simple interface | 04:44 |
| prologic | Nexus 5 and Nexus 7 | 04:44 |
| BitPuffin | I also have rooted android | 04:44 |
| BitPuffin | a barely breathing htc desire hd | 04:45 |
| prologic | not hard to write a simple interface | 04:45 |
| prologic | Touch UI isn't new to LInux(es) | 04:45 |
| prologic | -but- | 04:45 |
| BitPuffin | nope | 04:45 |
| BitPuffin | but stuff like calling | 04:45 |
| BitPuffin | and texting | 04:45 |
| BitPuffin | and so on | 04:45 |
| prologic | hw/drivers for GSM shipets | 04:45 |
| prologic | that's the missing bit I think | 04:45 |
| prologic | a lot of this crap is proprietary | 04:45 |
| BitPuffin | yup | 04:45 |
| BitPuffin | does CM contain a lot of binary blobs as well? | 04:45 |
| prologic | when the general community and industry at large oces this to be more open | 04:45 |
| prologic | you'll start to see more opprounities | 04:45 |
| BitPuffin | yeah | 04:46 |
| BitPuffin | It's sad how locked down the mobile industry is :/ | 04:46 |
| prologic | very | 04:46 |
| BitPuffin | my friend was dual booting ubuntu and cyanogenmod on his samsung though | 04:46 |
| BitPuffin | or was it debian | 04:47 |
| BitPuffin | (not ubuntu touch, like linux ubuntu) | 04:47 |
| BitPuffin | (and yes ubuntu touch is linux, but you know, desktop, think it was lubuntu) | 04:47 |
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| openfbtd | Yay. My init is completely compatable with sinit now | 05:20 |
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| cruxbot | [contrib.git/3.0]: c-ares: (NEW) Asynchronous C DNS library (required by mosquitto) | 05:24 |
| cruxbot | [contrib.git/3.0]: mosquitto (NEW): MQTT compatible server and client libraries | 05:24 |
| BitPuffin | what the hell is MQTT | 05:25 |
| BitPuffin | MQTT is a machine-to-machine (M2M)/"Internet of Things" connectivity protocol. | 05:25 |
| BitPuffin | well dayum | 05:25 |
| prologic | yeah | 05:26 |
| prologic | something I'm maintaining | 05:26 |
| prologic | and also quite a fan of | 05:26 |
| prologic | I'm presently also building a Docker image for it | 05:26 |
| prologic | so you can: docker run -d -p 1883:1883 prologic/mosquitto | 05:26 |
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| frinnst | jaeger: heads up: http://kb.vmware.com/selfservice/microsites/search.do?language=en_US&cmd=displayKC&externalId=2076392 | 06:32 |
| BitPuffin | frinnst: security related? | 06:42 |
| diverse | BitPuffin: open the link, it says there is a problem with an update to the ESXi system (which jaeger uses) | 06:45 |
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| BitPuffin | diverse: I did open the link, but I'm getting pretty sleepy | 06:47 |
| BitPuffin | :p | 06:47 |
| BitPuffin | so I'm derping | 06:47 |
| diverse | then sleep, don't fight it | 06:47 |
| BitPuffin | I'm at work | 06:47 |
| BitPuffin | I'm gonna go home in ~3 hours | 06:47 |
| BitPuffin | so it's aight | 06:47 |
| diverse | go home early? | 06:49 |
| diverse | it would be a safety hazard if you drive home very tired | 06:50 |
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| cruxbot | [contrib.git/3.0]: mosquitt: 1.3.1-1 -> 1.3.1-2 -- Forgot deps: cmake c-ares | 06:52 |
| BitPuffin | diverse: nah I'm trying to get in to a certain sleep schedule | 06:54 |
| BitPuffin | and I'm not driving | 06:54 |
| BitPuffin | I'm biking xD | 06:54 |
| diverse | best way to do that is chug some caffine pills or drink lots of energy drinks | 06:55 |
| BitPuffin | might take a cup of coffe | 06:55 |
| BitPuffin | e | 06:55 |
| diverse | that works too | 06:55 |
| BitPuffin | caffeine is very dangerous though | 06:55 |
| BitPuffin | plus it makes you tired in the long run | 06:55 |
| diverse | it's only dangerious if you take it in high amounts all of the time | 06:56 |
| BitPuffin | sure | 06:56 |
| BitPuffin | or well, it can probably still be dangerous to take it consistently | 06:56 |
| BitPuffin | at least coffee as some healthy aspects | 06:57 |
| diverse | well a little won't kill you, there are some healthy aspects to caffine | 06:57 |
| diverse | just don't overdose on it | 06:57 |
| BitPuffin | haha yeah like I said :) | 06:57 |
| diverse | and like I said before you said | 06:57 |
| BitPuffin | you did? hmm, must have been pretty delayed | 06:58 |
| BitPuffin | irc!! | 06:58 |
| diverse | it's alright, you are sleepy | 06:58 |
| BitPuffin | well I mean that in my logs I said it first | 06:58 |
| BitPuffin | well whatever :) | 06:59 |
| BitPuffin | what's going on today with you diverse | 06:59 |
| diverse | Well, I'm trying to think of a different WM to move to | 07:00 |
| BitPuffin | the grass is always greener | 07:01 |
| BitPuffin | diverse: so you aren't using 2bwm? | 07:01 |
| diverse | I'm currently using pekwm | 07:01 |
| z3bra | hi | 07:02 |
| diverse | hey z3bra | 07:02 |
| BitPuffin | looks kinda strange | 07:02 |
| BitPuffin | o/ z3bra | 07:02 |
| diverse | what's strange? | 07:02 |
| BitPuffin | pek | 07:02 |
| diverse | in what way? | 07:03 |
| diverse | you mean the default theme? | 07:03 |
| BitPuffin | hmm, one image it looked like it was decorated regularly, and another screenshot looked like haiku/beos | 07:03 |
| diverse | ah | 07:03 |
| diverse | well it uses pixmaps (like fluxbox) so you can literally make the decorations how you want it | 07:03 |
| z3bra | quick question | 07:03 |
| z3bra | how do you find orpahn packages ? | 07:04 |
| diverse | be it old-school or new-school | 07:04 |
| diverse | z3bra: prt-get listorphans | 07:04 |
| z3bra | now that's a huge list xD | 07:04 |
| z3bra | thanks | 07:04 |
| BitPuffin | orphans? | 07:05 |
| BitPuffin | is that when it gets installed as a dep and you remove what had it as a dependency? | 07:05 |
| z3bra | packages that are not a dependency of another package | 07:05 |
| diverse | it's leftover dependencies from other packages that don't require it or have been removed | 07:05 |
| z3bra | (but still installed) | 07:05 |
| z3bra | diverse, not really | 07:06 |
| z3bra | eg: vim | 07:06 |
| z3bra | or tmux | 07:06 |
| frinnst | prt-get listorphan | 07:06 |
| frinnst | listorphans * | 07:06 |
| z3bra | yeah diverse told me :) | 07:06 |
| z3bra | thanks | 07:06 |
| BitPuffin | well how does it keep track of if it was installed regularly or pulled in as a dep? | 07:06 |
| z3bra | check the source :) | 07:07 |
| diverse | z3bra: Well the idea is, listorphan list all the packages that have zero dependents | 07:07 |
| z3bra | yep | 07:07 |
| frinnst | but be careful with that, it just goes by the "#Depends on" line in the pkgfile | 07:07 |
| frinnst | not if something is actually linked | 07:07 |
| diverse | you can remove that stuff without harming your system usually, but you have to be careful about what you remove | 07:07 |
| diverse | and always run revdep to make sure nothing broke | 07:07 |
| z3bra | I tried installing cifs-utils | 07:08 |
| z3bra | And it installed 2 dependencies | 07:08 |
| z3bra | But I closed the terminal and I want to know what's installed | 07:08 |
| frinnst | Dependencies: samba,keyutils | 07:09 |
| frinnst | probably | 07:09 |
| BitPuffin | well then it will say that a package with no deps is an orphan | 07:09 |
| BitPuffin | that nothing depends on | 07:09 |
| z3bra | yeah there was samba | 07:09 |
| z3bra | but samba pulled other dependencies, etc... | 07:09 |
| BitPuffin | maybe if it only listed those that were listed as a dependency in some pkgbuild somewhere | 07:10 |
| BitPuffin | that would make it really slow though | 07:10 |
| BitPuffin | unless you put it in like sqlite | 07:10 |
| diverse | a zero dependent package can be remove, although you may not want to remove them because you want to keep some of them, after removing zero dependent packages, you can then remove their dependencies just as long as they are dependent for other packages. It's really that easy. | 07:16 |
| diverse | *they are not dependent for other packages | 07:17 |
| diverse | how I wish IRC had the ability to edit out your previous messages for mistakes | 07:19 |
| BitPuffin | yeah¨ | 07:19 |
| diverse | yeah to what? | 07:20 |
| diverse | the orphan thing? | 07:20 |
| BitPuffin | no the mistake thing | 07:21 |
| diverse | Ah, well, wouldn't that be cool though? | 07:21 |
| BitPuffin | yup | 07:21 |
| BitPuffin | well the problem is | 07:22 |
| BitPuffin | you can't just do prt-get remove `prt-get listorphans` or whatever because as you said, you might not want to remove them | 07:22 |
| diverse | correct | 07:22 |
| frinnst | yeah, dont fucking run that command | 07:22 |
| frinnst | (in case someone is in the habbit of running commands straight off the internetz) | 07:23 |
| BitPuffin | however if there was a way to filter based on that one of the orphans is listed as a dependency in a pkgfile on your system, chances are it's not a utility but a library that was installed as a dependency | 07:23 |
| frinnst | have you seen what it lists? :) | 07:23 |
| BitPuffin | although you should still be careful | 07:23 |
| frinnst | gcc, glibc-32 etc | 07:23 |
| frinnst | but go ahead, great excuse to test your backups :) | 07:24 |
| BitPuffin | frinnst: well a better alternative to prt-get remove `prt-get listorphans` is "sudo rm -rf bin usr" | 07:24 |
| BitPuffin | or actually | 07:24 |
| diverse | BitPuffin: it's a matter of knowing what you want. The computer can't know what you really want to remove. | 07:24 |
| BitPuffin | "dd if=/dev/null of=/dev/sda" | 07:24 |
| BitPuffin | diverse: yeah | 07:25 |
| BitPuffin | diverse: well I might write a small cleanuputil | 07:25 |
| BitPuffin | that builds a database of all the packages and all the dependencies etc. And then will list only orphans that are a dependency of some port (regardless if that port is installed or not) | 07:26 |
| BitPuffin | and then like I dunno, ask you yes or no for each orphan or something | 07:26 |
| BitPuffin | just in case | 07:26 |
| Romster | prologic, c-ares needs --mandir and the chroot a the end is not needed. | 07:55 |
| diverse | Romster: you mean chown? | 07:56 |
| Romster | ah chown doh | 07:56 |
| Romster | mosquitto as well we don't use /usr/share/man we use /usr/man | 07:57 |
| Romster | mosquitto is also at least missing cmake and probably other depends on ports | 07:58 |
| Romster | oh next commit does deps. | 07:58 |
| Romster | but still mandir | 07:58 |
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| prologic | *sigh* | 08:13 |
| prologic | okay :) | 08:13 |
| prologic | I normally don't really care about where the man pages are | 08:13 |
| prologic | doesn't man look in /usr/man and /usr/sahre/man? | 08:13 |
| prologic | Do we officially in CRUX (someone point me to some wiki doc) use /usr/man and not /usr/share/man? :) | 08:13 |
| prologic | I forget :) | 08:14 |
| prologic | clearly | 08:14 |
| prologic | hrmm | 08:16 |
| prologic | I cannot find any docs on this | 08:16 |
| prologic | 4.6.2. Directories | 08:17 |
| prologic | /usr/man/Man pages | 08:17 |
| prologic | there it is :) | 08:17 |
| Romster | it's in the handbook | 08:17 |
| prologic | shows you how long it's been since I've read the handbook | 08:17 |
| diverse | Romster is the Crux master | 08:18 |
| prologic | Although it's exact working is: In general packages should install files in these directories. Exceptions are of course allowed if there is a good reason. But try to follow the following directory structure as close as possible. | 08:18 |
| prologic | So :) | 08:18 |
| Romster | yes but most programs put it in /usr/share/man just add a --mandir=/usr/man and bump the relase number and pkgmk -um the footprint after rebuilding it'll be good then. | 08:18 |
| prologic | by convention however since I do recall we like --mandir=/usr/man I'll fix the ports ;) | 08:18 |
| prologic | diverse, Romster is the CRUX nazi :) | 08:19 |
| prologic | sorry for any Germans here :) | 08:19 |
| prologic | haha | 08:19 |
| Romster | nah i just spotted it after diverse said about c-ares that i also use the chown is rarely ever needed on any port c-ares has it. | 08:19 |
| Romster | nazi i'm just following the guidlines. | 08:19 |
| Romster | if i don't point it out who will? | 08:19 |
| Romster | where will quality go? | 08:20 |
| prologic | lol | 08:20 |
| prologic | it's okay :) | 08:20 |
| Romster | << | 08:20 |
| prologic | quality is good :) | 08:20 |
| prologic | thanks for picking my flaw up :) | 08:20 |
| Romster | i don't wanna be the nazi police around here lol. | 08:21 |
| Romster | i'm just observant. | 08:21 |
| Romster | feel free to pick on my ports if you can fault any. | 08:21 |
| diverse | why would following protocol make someone a facist? | 08:21 |
| Romster | i dunno. because i whinge and complain alot here in the past? | 08:22 |
| diverse | Oh okay, the "bossy" part about you ;) | 08:22 |
| prologic | hehe | 08:23 |
| prologic | bbs | 08:23 |
| diverse | prologic: trust me, Romster is a good dictator | 08:25 |
| diverse | not an evil one | 08:25 |
| diverse | :) | 08:27 |
| Romster | -_- | 08:27 |
| Romster | i was looking at finit runit like but a single finit.conf file for setting up. maybe we could move to that instead of sysvinit. | 08:28 |
| Romster | less obtrusive than runit itself. | 08:28 |
| diverse | Romster: being jokes aside, have you checked out s6? http://skarnet.org/software/s6/index.html | 08:28 |
| Romster | seen it but this is even simpler troglobit.com/finit.html | 08:32 |
| Romster | 1 conf file that's it | 08:32 |
| diverse | pretty neat | 08:33 |
| Romster | not sure how lvm and mdadm fit in but probably wouldn't be much effort. | 08:34 |
| diverse | finit looks pretty KISS to me | 08:35 |
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| prologic | cool | 08:42 |
| prologic | let us know what is' like :) | 08:42 |
| diverse | well I like the fact you can list the services in the finit.conf instead of making symlinks in a directory | 08:45 |
| z3bra | Hi Romster ! | 08:45 |
| z3bra | any link to finit ? | 08:45 |
| Romster | hi it's at http://troglobit.com/finit.html | 08:46 |
| z3bra | thanks | 08:46 |
| z3bra | looks nice | 08:48 |
| prologic | yeah I hate the whole symlink crap | 08:50 |
| prologic | a bunch of scripts in /etc/rc.d | 08:50 |
| prologic | and a list of ones to start | 08:50 |
| prologic | plain and simple | 08:50 |
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| Romster | i'm thinking of trying that out. | 08:51 |
| z3bra | init.c -> int main(void) { execv("/sbin/rc", NULL); return 0; } | 08:51 |
| prologic | sounds fine to me :) | 08:52 |
| z3bra | and then, svc to manage daemons :) | 08:52 |
| prologic | in fact that sounds perfect | 08:52 |
| z3bra | you'll like sinit then | 08:52 |
| Romster | so you take back the nazi comment now lol :D | 08:52 |
| prologic | honestly I'd even be happy with supervisord being my init of choice :) | 08:52 |
| prologic | it was a joke :) | 08:52 |
| Romster | i know | 08:53 |
| z3bra | http://git.2f30.org/sinit/tree/sinit.c | 08:53 |
| Romster | is that all that sinit is? | 08:53 |
| z3bra | yep | 08:53 |
| z3bra | :) | 08:53 |
| prologic | haha | 08:54 |
| prologic | is that it? | 08:54 |
| prologic | wow | 08:54 |
| prologic | that's amazing | 08:54 |
| prologic | even I could write that | 08:54 |
| prologic | now that I"m writing more and more C tehse days | 08:54 |
| prologic | with Arduino | 08:54 |
| Romster | ok so after that what do you do for starting services? | 08:54 |
| Romster | and modprobe and stuff | 08:54 |
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| prologic | modprobe should have nothing to do with init | 08:54 |
| prologic | nor should services | 08:54 |
| prologic | it's just a way of spawning something | 08:54 |
| z3bra | It's managed by other programs like svc and such | 08:55 |
| prologic | you know the whole /etc/rc.d/<service> start|stop|restart we have in crux? | 08:55 |
| prologic | that has little to do with sysvinit at all | 08:55 |
| z3bra | yeah | 08:55 |
| prologic | it just starts or restarts the appropraite daemon | 08:55 |
| Amnesia | http://www.libressl.org/ | 08:55 |
| prologic | sysvinit actually spawns /etc/rc afaik in crux | 08:55 |
| prologic | at least that's what /etc/inittab tells it to tdo | 08:55 |
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| prologic | from there on it's all bash scripts | 08:55 |
| prologic | and some kind of structure we implemented | 08:55 |
| z3bra | https://github.com/hut/minirc | 08:56 |
| z3bra | check this out | 08:56 |
| prologic | hmm maybe later | 08:57 |
| z3bra | https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=81520 | 08:58 |
| z3bra | that's `svc`, a service manager | 08:58 |
| z3bra | but is actually a cli tool for sysV | 08:58 |
| BitPuffin | Amnesia: is that for real :o | 08:59 |
| Amnesia | si | 08:59 |
| prologic | yeah I don't need or want a "service tool" | 08:59 |
| prologic | I'm quite okay with /etc/rc.d/<service> start|stop|restart|status | 08:59 |
| z3bra | :) | 08:59 |
| z3bra | all you need is a function | 08:59 |
| z3bra | start() { /etc/rc.d/$1 start } | 08:59 |
| z3bra | hehe | 08:59 |
| prologic | indeed | 09:00 |
| prologic | it's not that hard to abstract | 09:00 |
| BitPuffin | I'm not sure how I feel about it | 09:00 |
| z3bra | well | 09:00 |
| prologic | but otoh if I wanted such an init with service tool and "management" and maybe an API | 09:00 |
| prologic | I'd design and implement one from the ground up | 09:00 |
| prologic | but without hard bound dependeicies on udev or any other silly nonsense | 09:00 |
| z3bra | yeah | 09:00 |
| prologic | but really IHMO | 09:00 |
| prologic | any API should be atop any init | 09:00 |
| prologic | and agnostic of any init | 09:00 |
| BitPuffin | Amnesia: would at least be good if they said who was doing it | 09:00 |
| prologic | so I wouldn't do that either | 09:00 |
| z3bra | you might like to follow this project: http://git.2f30.org/morpheus/ | 09:01 |
| prologic | I'd just write a new init | 09:01 |
| prologic | and write an API for it separately | 09:01 |
| prologic | in fact I kinda do want to write an agnostic API for init systems -- at least sysvinit for starters | 09:01 |
| z3bra | They're building a distro using sbase, sinit and pkg management using `mk' | 09:01 |
| Amnesia | BitPuffin: LibreSSL is primarily developed by the OpenBSD Project, and its first inclusion into an operating system will be in OpenBSD 5.6. | 09:02 |
| z3bra | Yeah that's serious | 09:02 |
| diverse | Amnesia: ah, that's fantastic | 09:02 |
| z3bra | but the name is silly | 09:02 |
| diverse | Well OpenSSL is already taken | 09:03 |
| z3bra | as well as OpenTLS, I know | 09:03 |
| z3bra | but meh :/ | 09:03 |
| BitPuffin | Amnesia: I see, well still, some namedrops would be nice | 09:03 |
| BitPuffin | but yeah OpenBSD reacted fairly strongly to the heartbleed thing | 09:03 |
| BitPuffin | so it's not entirely surprising | 09:04 |
| diverse | Finally OpenBSD is taking the stand | 09:04 |
| BitPuffin | openbsd rocks | 09:05 |
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| diverse | woohoo LibreSSL | 09:09 |
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| z3bra | why is it useless ? | 09:13 |
| z3bra | oh, btw | 09:13 |
| diverse | BitPuffin: That's true, they could just fork a much better implementation as a base, but maybe they want to show that they can code it better than the OpenSSL team | 09:13 |
| z3bra | does anybody uses fgetty ? | 09:13 |
| BitPuffin | diverse: well they probably don't wanna fork gnutls because gpl | 09:14 |
| BitPuffin | diverse: well I just mean why wouldn't they just work with openssl | 09:14 |
| diverse | there are tons out there, just not as well known | 09:14 |
| BitPuffin | however maybe they aren't too happy about openbsd coming in and taking over everything | 09:14 |
| BitPuffin | so maybe that's why it had to be through a fork | 09:14 |
| BitPuffin | there may be indeed, but probably not very complete ones | 09:15 |
| BitPuffin | anyways one of the problems with OpenSSL is that it only has one fulltime guy on it | 09:15 |
| BitPuffin | which is weird | 09:15 |
| BitPuffin | because you'd think companies would at least try to invest in something that is so critical to their infrastructure | 09:15 |
| diverse | and OpenSSL has a very messy code base, which makes it very hard to audit the source | 09:16 |
| BitPuffin | indeed, but if more people worked on it it could be cleaned up | 09:16 |
| diverse | it's going to be a lot of work to clean up OpenSSL for the OpenBSD guys | 09:16 |
| BitPuffin | anyways I haven't checked the mailing lists to see discussions on the people who are making libressl even tried to work with openssl | 09:16 |
| BitPuffin | yeah openssl is a real mess | 09:17 |
| BitPuffin | honestly it was well known that the codebase was messy, it's not surprising at all that there would be critical flaws in ti | 09:17 |
| BitPuffin | apparently eating one banana can make you non-sleepy for a pretty good timespan | 09:18 |
| diverse | but the more I think about this, I am starting to see this as also a marketing strategy, so they can say "My product is an *improved* fork version of OpenSSL, so switch to using my product, since it's *better*" because a lot of software use OpenSSL blindly and would give them incentive | 09:18 |
| BitPuffin | maybe this should be my new coding fruit of choice | 09:18 |
| diverse | Like how with LibreOffice is to OpenOffice | 09:19 |
| BitPuffin | yeah perhaps | 09:19 |
| BitPuffin | I feel sorry for openoffice | 09:19 |
| BitPuffin | because I love that apache took over it | 09:19 |
| diverse | meh | 09:19 |
| BitPuffin | but since the GPL is such a shitty license they have to reinvent the actual useful things that libreoffice added if they are gonna add it | 09:19 |
| BitPuffin | but I digress | 09:21 |
| BitPuffin | diverse: however right now it's only gonna be included in openbsd and I think by the time it gets available for other platforms heartbleed won't be as heated anymore | 09:22 |
| diverse | Well, who can't turn down what OpenBSD has to offer, I mean their OpenSSH implementation is freaking famous | 09:23 |
| BitPuffin | you mean who can? :P | 09:23 |
| cruxbot | [contrib.git/3.0]: c-ares: 1.10.0-1 -> 1.10.0-2 -- Fixed man page location --mandir=/usr/man | 09:23 |
| cruxbot | [contrib.git/3.0]: mosquitto: 1.3.1-2 -> 1.3.1-3 -- Fixed man page location | 09:23 |
| diverse | s/can't/can/ | 09:24 |
| diverse | there fixed | 09:24 |
| BitPuffin | :P | 09:24 |
| BitPuffin | diverse: well if that was how the world work we would all be running openbsd | 09:25 |
| prologic | For those interested in MQTT: https://index.docker.io/u/prologic/docker-mosquitto/ | 09:25 |
| prologic | This is ready to rock 'n roll with the ownTracks (previously known as MQTTitude) on Android for personal/private GPS Tracking | 09:26 |
| diverse | BitPuffin: well the OS is pretty niche, but the cross-platform tools they write work very well and doesn't matter which OS we use :P | 09:26 |
| BitPuffin | diverse: I wouldn't say it's that niche, it's a splendid all around general purpose os | 09:27 |
| BitPuffin | it just happens to be secure by default | 09:27 |
| BitPuffin | which is not a niche really | 09:27 |
| BitPuffin | it's something we should all want from an OS | 09:27 |
| diverse | Well it's niche in a sense, that all they do is focus on security, where as FreeBSD is more about being bleeding edge and trying to get more software to work on it | 09:29 |
| diverse | However if you have all the tools you want on OpenBSD, then it's perfect | 09:30 |
| BitPuffin | strangely enough openbsd is like better at graphics drivers and stuff lol | 09:33 |
| diverse | oh, they got good open source drivers? | 09:34 |
| BitPuffin | I'd say FreeBSD is more about throughput and server performance etc but maybe that's just how I see it | 09:34 |
| BitPuffin | diverse: well generally when there is news about say FreeBSD or dragonfly BSD getting updated ati drivers or something it's always "ported the openbsd drivers" | 09:34 |
| diverse | Yeah, for FreeBSD it's about performance and compatibility (like with the Linux emulator they have built into the kernel) | 09:35 |
| BitPuffin | pretty sure openbsd can do the linux compatability as well | 09:36 |
| BitPuffin | I know netbsd can | 09:36 |
| BitPuffin | anyways | 09:36 |
| BitPuffin | heading home | 09:36 |
| diverse | to my knowledge, I'll check it out | 09:36 |
| diverse | *not to my knowledge | 09:36 |
| BitPuffin | I would be surprised if it didn't | 09:36 |
| BitPuffin | openbsd is actually a much better regular everyday os than people think | 09:36 |
| BitPuffin | anyways | 09:36 |
| BitPuffin | will be back in about 4 hours | 09:37 |
| diverse | hmm, than I wonder why FreeBSD is getting more attention? | 09:37 |
| BitPuffin | mindshare I guess | 09:37 |
| BitPuffin | momentum with word of mouth | 09:37 |
| BitPuffin | something like that | 09:37 |
| BitPuffin | can be discussed lataz :D | 09:37 |
| diverse | yeah, go home already! | 09:38 |
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| diverse | Maybe I will contribute to OpenBSD by buying their next release as a way to show my thanks for going out of their way to implement their own SSL/TSL | 10:08 |
| prologic | heh | 10:12 |
| diverse | I'm serious :) | 10:12 |
| prologic | I know :) | 10:12 |
| prologic | btw... is anyone else besides me using Docker on CRUX yet? | 10:13 |
| prologic | Or using my CRUX Image on some Docker platform? :) | 10:13 |
| diverse | not me, but I don't know what docker is | 10:13 |
| prologic | https://docker.io/ | 10:14 |
| diverse | site is taking forever to load | 10:16 |
| prologic | heh you'er right | 10:29 |
| prologic | crux-arm.nu is down too | 10:29 |
| prologic | maybe some infrastructure has gone down somewhere in the world | 10:29 |
| prologic | or some routes | 10:29 |
| prologic | http://stackoverflow.com/questions/16047306/how-is-docker-io-different-from-a-normal-virtual-machine | 10:30 |
| prologic | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Docker_(software) | 10:30 |
| diverse | wiki page would be all I need :) | 10:31 |
| Amnesia | you folks might like http://bottomupcs.com/ aswell | 10:31 |
| diverse | oh okay, so docker is a wrapper to lxc giving it more features | 10:32 |
| diverse | gotcha | 10:32 |
| prologic | sure that's one way of looking at it :) | 10:33 |
| prologic | but that's only a very shallow view of it :) | 10:33 |
| prologic | I believe in the works (or already) are other execution engines such as libvirt, qemu, kvm, etc | 10:34 |
| prologic | it'a also now in OpenStack Icehouse as part of Heat | 10:34 |
| prologic | and you've got tutum.co dotcloud.com digitalocean.com now support it as well and so on | 10:34 |
| diverse | I already know what lxc, containers, and jails are and what you could use them for. As I understand it now, docker gives you some app individuality, without the need to create a subsystem, say to jail to host services in case if hackers attack you and they can't go outside of the jail. | 10:44 |
| diverse | what do they mean by portable though? | 10:46 |
| diverse | is it like process isolation and transferring it to another system? | 10:47 |
| diverse | while it still runs? | 10:48 |
| prologic | Docker images are portable | 11:05 |
| prologic | what I buidl here you can run there | 11:05 |
| diverse | okay I got the full idea now | 11:06 |
| prologic | Docker also (if it wasn't clear before) provides a clean, consist, reliable way to package up your applications and services | 11:06 |
| prologic | from development to deployment | 11:06 |
| prologic | also provides linking (discover ability) and volumes as well as ip management | 11:06 |
| prologic | as I've explained before: | 11:07 |
| prologic | docker run <app> | 11:07 |
| prologic | plain and simple | 11:07 |
| diverse | hmm, I wonder if this will replace a lot of the mainsteam existing package managers? | 11:08 |
| prologic | quite possibly in some way or another | 11:10 |
| prologic | but it won't replace anything I don't think | 11:10 |
| prologic | Docker plays nice with others | 11:10 |
| prologic | In fact it's quite normal to run Docker on top of existing virtual infrastructure | 11:11 |
| diverse | I'm seeing distros would go "goodbye rpms, sayonara debs! Hello Docker!" | 11:11 |
| Romster | your misisng the point docker is a complete image you can still use packages to install into a docker image. | 11:12 |
| frinnst | holy hell, this massive backlog spans 10 hrs | 11:14 |
| diverse | but what if someone decided to pack just the app files in the snapshots for application installation? | 11:14 |
| diverse | although I guess uninstallation would be a different matter? | 11:16 |
| diverse | I guess docker is more or less a distributed system cloning tool? | 11:19 |
| diverse | and by distributed, I mean, you send chunks to clone in a variety of ways. | 11:20 |
| diverse | Romster: ^ ? | 11:21 |
| Romster | damn hg prologic your the hg expert how do you move to a specific commit in hg | 11:22 |
| Romster | already got the tree with hg clone ... | 11:22 |
| Romster | or diverse if you use hg | 11:23 |
| diverse | nope | 11:23 |
| Romster | i cant' do everything at once | 11:23 |
| diverse | does prologic do his ports in mercurial? | 11:25 |
| diverse | or something else? | 11:25 |
| Romster | hg update -r d121a0b16ff4c1c1614f128d3e231ad3fc7a45ec | 11:25 |
| Romster | found it... | 11:25 |
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| Romster | files here i can't find what commit has them svg files | 11:32 |
| Romster | http://hg.pidgin.im/pidgin/main/rev/f5bab0ba657fa251bd04bef08ac2607697694342 | 11:32 |
| diverse | wait with docker, apps can "run everywhere" but the container and host architecture must match? What a turn off. | 11:41 |
| diverse | might as well just compile things statically and share the one binary to others with the same host architecture | 11:42 |
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| prologic | <Romster> damn hg prologic your the hg expert how do you move to a specific commit in hg <-- hg update <revision> | 11:47 |
| prologic | diverse> does prologic do his ports in mercurial? <-- yes | 11:48 |
| diverse | that explains Romster's frustration | 11:48 |
| Romster | did that i'm not fidning crap tonight givve up i'm just gonna go play a game | 11:48 |
| prologic | diverse> wait with docker, apps can "run everywhere" but the container and host architecture must match? What a turn off. <-- that's only a limitation of lxc or openvz. the same would not be true if you used a libvirt, qemu or kvm driver for example (out of Dockers hands per say) | 11:49 |
| prologic | diverse, so obviously you could think of Docker as an OS of sorts | 11:49 |
| Romster | too frustrated todo anything minds racing around at all the work i did today... so game time.... | 11:50 |
| prologic | If you had the Linux Kernel + Docker as your init and a simple CLI | 11:50 |
| prologic | You'd basically have an entire OS complete with "package management" | 11:50 |
| prologic | i.e: where you could run at the CLI: run <some_image> | 11:50 |
| prologic | Motor shield, Stepper motor, Transistors, Diodes, a Solenoid and a bunch o f servos and dc motors | 11:51 |
| prologic | yay :) | 11:51 |
| Romster | at least i know my electronics stuff... damn computers. | 11:52 |
| prologic | Check out: https://bitbucket.org/tinycircuits | 11:54 |
| prologic | bunch of code samples I've put together for the TinyDuino paltform | 11:54 |
| diverse | if one day, docker allows apps compiled on one architecture and to run on a different one (assuming both hosts have Linux), then color me excited, because that could give Java a run for it's money | 11:54 |
| prologic | Well sure that's already possible :) | 11:56 |
| prologic | As long as your App is written in Python | 11:56 |
| prologic | or Java | 11:56 |
| prologic | or Javascript | 11:56 |
| prologic | :) | 11:56 |
| prologic | or Ruby | 11:56 |
| prologic | mwhahahaha | 11:56 |
| prologic | problem is if you were referring to binaries | 11:56 |
| prologic | now you're getting into some "HARD" stuff | 11:57 |
| prologic | that is not easily solvable without some kind of abstraction (e.g: a virtual machine) | 11:57 |
| prologic | oh wait we already have that :) | 11:57 |
| prologic | Python, Ruby, Java, etc, etc | 11:57 |
| Romster | you could have universal binaries that have code blocks that pick one depending on the arch to run on. | 11:58 |
| diverse | well yeah, I'm talking about binaries. And LXC is a vm at the file system level. I'm mean, how cool will it be to have portable binaries that can run at almost hardware speed? | 11:58 |
| Romster | basicly compiled for all supported arches and some header is picked for the entry point. | 11:58 |
| Romster | only other way is by compiled and a interpreter | 11:59 |
| prologic | Yeah this is called JIT :) | 11:59 |
| Romster | by/byte | 11:59 |
| Romster | aware of that | 11:59 |
| prologic | you guys make Computer Science sound easy | 11:59 |
| prologic | it's not :) | 11:59 |
| Romster | maybe frustrated but not dumb << | 11:59 |
| prologic | go do your gaming :) | 11:59 |
| prologic | I have to do some reading for my PHD | 11:59 |
| diverse | I'm not saying anything is easy, I'm just saying if they manage that, that would rock | 12:00 |
| diverse | other than that, I don't see anything that interesting about docker, sorry. | 12:00 |
| Romster | but it's too hard too heck when t's eveither left or right indian or crap i get lost there. | 12:00 |
| Romster | lsb msb i recall. | 12:01 |
| Romster | yeah i'll just go game far eaiser. | 12:01 |
| prologic | diverse, what aren't you getting? | 12:11 |
| prologic | for me it solves all kinds of problems between developers, sysadmins and network admins | 12:12 |
| prologic | and bridges the gap between application developers and infrastructure | 12:12 |
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| Romster | i think he gets it now prologic | 13:01 |
| diverse | heh | 13:01 |
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| diverse | yeah, I didn't understand it's true purpose until I talked with Romster | 13:02 |
| diverse | prologic: ^ | 13:02 |
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| prologic | diverse> other than that, I don't see anything that interesting about docker, sorry. | 13:12 |
| prologic | that was your last statement :) | 13:12 |
| prologic | makes me think you're missing something :) | 13:12 |
| jaeger | frinnst: I like their workaround: "don't use it" | 13:13 |
| diverse | prologic: well I read what it did, but I didn't understood it's practicality, especially in a business pov | 13:15 |
| diverse | (considering I haven't done any real sysadmin or programming work yet) | 13:16 |
| prologic | that's precisely where it really shines | 13:19 |
| prologic | in a business perspective | 13:19 |
| prologic | streaming the whole development to production depployment | 13:19 |
| prologic | if you can just hand your infrastructure guys a single image | 13:19 |
| prologic | and they run "run it" | 13:19 |
| prologic | that's quite invaluable | 13:19 |
| prologic | but it's not just about the "image" | 13:20 |
| prologic | Docker and it's ecosystem is quite powerful and flexible | 13:20 |
| prologic | where you infrastructure guys can hook up all sorts of elaborate combinations of things knowing that your container/image (your app) will function no matter what | 13:20 |
| prologic | I guess I've done both sides of the life cycle of an app/service and still do :) | 13:21 |
| prologic | tbh I don't trust sysadmins to do a job properly | 13:21 |
| prologic | no offense to any sysadmins here :) | 13:21 |
| prologic | so if I can just hand them a Docker image, that's +1 for me :) | 13:22 |
| diverse | it's less for you to worry about | 13:22 |
| prologic | what's more, there's none of this silliness where something breaks in production and you can't diagnose it because you can't reproduce production - now you can | 13:22 |
| prologic | or at least it's a lot easier to | 13:22 |
| prologic | the value comes from incorporating it into your development workflow and life cycle | 13:23 |
| prologic | from development to full production | 13:23 |
| prologic | what you develop, and what ends up in production should not differ | 13:23 |
| jaeger | its use is also a subjective thing. I understand what it's for and the problem it's trying to solve but I still have zero use for it, myself | 13:23 |
| prologic | ofc | 13:23 |
| jaeger | Fortunately I don't have developers to support... researchers are hard enough :P | 13:24 |
| prologic | anything always comes with some subjectivity :) | 13:24 |
| prologic | it's like anything really | 13:24 |
| prologic | if you have good tools you can do cool stuff | 13:24 |
| prologic | haha | 13:24 |
| prologic | yeah that's the field I'm in these days too | 13:24 |
| prologic | them pesky researchers | 13:25 |
| prologic | oh wait I'm going to become one | 13:25 |
| prologic | rats :) | 13:25 |
| jaeger | get out while you still can | 13:25 |
| prologic | haha | 13:25 |
| prologic | nah I wanna get in for some weird reason | 13:25 |
| prologic | :) | 13:25 |
| prologic | I guess maybe so I can have something to fall back on when I'm considered an old goose and can't program or keep up with the young nit wits :) | 13:26 |
| prologic | teach them instead :) | 13:26 |
| jaeger | that's what retirement is for | 13:26 |
| prologic | haha | 13:26 |
| prologic | I think I have a few decades before that | 13:26 |
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| diverse | prologic: you may end up being either a project manager or a sysadmin after you aged | 13:28 |
| Romster | or some old geaser like i used to run os/2 only it be some other system that's long since gone and moved computing into quantum mechanics or something | 13:30 |
| Romster | who knows where the world is heading. | 13:31 |
| Romster | disaster? | 13:31 |
| prologic | diverse, maybe | 13:33 |
| prologic | but not any time soon | 13:33 |
| prologic | I care too much about my work | 13:33 |
| prologic | once I stop caring, perhaps | 13:33 |
| jaeger | you'll stop once you become a researcher :) especially if there's a doctoral degree involved | 13:34 |
| prologic | yeah | 13:34 |
| prologic | maybe you're right | 13:35 |
| prologic | but that'll be at least another 5-7 years ago :) | 13:35 |
| diverse | s/ago/to go/ | 13:35 |
| diverse | Romster: quantum computing is going to be like a whole new realm | 13:36 |
| Romster | most likely. | 13:39 |
| diverse | s/likely/definitely/ :P | 13:40 |
| Romster | hehe | 13:40 |
| Romster | ah jigsaw solving so relaxing | 13:41 |
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| Romster | done like 5 jigsaws already.. | 13:41 |
| Romster | in the end you'll only wanna do what is useful to yourself. | 13:42 |
| Romster | or pay someone to get it done | 13:42 |
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| prologic | Btw, tutum.co -- in the next coming weeks tehse guys will be offering $1 and $2 per month Docker hosting :) | 13:42 |
| Romster | why so cheap? | 13:43 |
| prologic | because they can | 13:43 |
| prologic | cheap == more customers/users | 13:43 |
| prologic | lowers the barrier to entry | 13:43 |
| Romster | probably very little resources. | 13:43 |
| prologic | I've been in talks with the CTO and CEO for the past few months now | 13:43 |
| diverse | more customers == more demand | 13:43 |
| prologic | with feedback and suggestions | 13:43 |
| diverse | more demand == more profit | 13:43 |
| prologic | Romster, it's not a vm :) | 13:43 |
| Romster | there is that too diverse get them in then bung up the price | 13:44 |
| prologic | 64MB for an application container at $1/month | 13:44 |
| prologic | is more than enough to power an entire wordpress site for example | 13:44 |
| prologic | and then some | 13:44 |
| Romster | no but they can restrict memory cpu time and bandwidth/quota per a user. | 13:44 |
| prologic | that's kinda the point | 13:44 |
| prologic | eve at the resources of $1/month | 13:44 |
| Romster | wordpress -_- that thing anyone hacks into. | 13:44 |
| prologic | you could still spin up a CRUX Docker container on their infrastructure | 13:44 |
| prologic | and run sshd | 13:45 |
| Romster | true | 13:45 |
| prologic | and basically use it as a realyl really cheap vm | 13:45 |
| Romster | i'll be using some resources when i start getting serious at spidering and testing mirrors. | 13:46 |
| prologic | 1000 users at $1/month is more profit compared to 100 users $5/month :) | 13:46 |
| prologic | no :) | 13:46 |
| prologic | you will scale up more resources on demand | 13:46 |
| Romster | want to distribute the load a bit on a few hosts to avoid downtime too. | 13:46 |
| prologic | take advantage of their auto scaling feature(s) | 13:46 |
| prologic | and scale down when your system is idle | 13:46 |
| prologic | Tutum auto scales across AWS regions for you | 13:47 |
| Romster | hmm i see | 13:47 |
| prologic | automatically if you tell it to do so | 13:47 |
| Romster | wont be all the time but those moments you need it. | 13:47 |
| diverse | frinnst: ^ another massive text wall :P | 13:49 |
| frinnst | im already ignoring it | 13:52 |
| Romster | the logs are over flowing | 13:52 |
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| prologic | irclogger_ can handle it :) | 13:53 |
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| diverse | geez, look at how sloppy the OpenSSL guys are and what the OpenBSD team is doing to clean up their mess: http://www.openbsd.org/cgi-bin/cvsweb/src/lib/libssl/src/ssl/t1_enc.c.diff?r1=1.22;r2=1.23 | 15:50 |
| diverse | especially that for loop with the /* increment */ comment | 15:51 |
| prologic | yes I saw | 15:54 |
| prologic | 90,000 deleted lines of C | 15:54 |
| prologic | 150,000 deleted lines of content | 15:54 |
| prologic | That's what (unfortunately) happens to software projects over time | 15:55 |
| prologic | They become large and un-maintainable | 15:55 |
| prologic | it's actually a real problem in complex software systems - one which I don't think we have a good answer for (good PHD topic IHMO) | 15:55 |
| diverse | yeah and that article pointed to the OpenSSL rampage site that tilman posted a couple of days ago and I started reading from the bottom and can't believe how f*cked up the code is. It's like OpenSSL was on drugs like what Theo said. | 15:56 |
| diverse | and they just do stuff which is not needed and lazy solving problems | 15:58 |
| diverse | *lazy | 15:58 |
| diverse | *lazy at | 15:58 |
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| prologic | well call it what you want :) | 15:59 |
| prologic | software development is by no means easy | 15:59 |
| prologic | or everybody would be doing it :) | 15:59 |
| prologic | lazy sure - lots of developers are lazy | 15:59 |
| prologic | overly complex - sadly yes a lot of software gets that way | 15:59 |
| diverse | yeah, but there is no excuse for doing code in a sloppy style, with text editors to handle that for you. | 15:59 |
| prologic | maybe not | 16:00 |
| prologic | but tools aren't perfect | 16:00 |
| prologic | and you can't trust the tool to do the right thing anyway | 16:00 |
| prologic | just look at any C# project :) | 16:00 |
| prologic | you can practically know nothing about the langauge | 16:00 |
| prologic | with all the fancy drop-downs and auto complete | 16:00 |
| prologic | does that mean you write good C#? | 16:00 |
| diverse | I'm not talking about autocompletion, I'm talking about the style of code | 16:03 |
| prologic | Yeah | 16:03 |
| diverse | Content will be good or bad, but just to make your code look obfuscation on purpose to make auditing harder is the worst | 16:03 |
| prologic | So in Python world | 16:03 |
| prologic | you're referring to something like Pylama for Vim | 16:03 |
| prologic | which incorporates PEP8, McCabe and PyFlakes into your editor | 16:04 |
| prologic | ensuring at least some level of quality code | 16:04 |
| prologic | style, complexity and basic errors | 16:04 |
| prologic | respectively | 16:04 |
| prologic | I agree | 16:04 |
| prologic | obfusation is never a good idea | 16:04 |
| prologic | and bad practice | 16:05 |
| prologic | it makes you look stupid | 16:05 |
| diverse | did you look at the code they wrote? It's like they must of been high or something | 16:05 |
| diverse | whatever their smoking | 16:05 |
| diverse | *they're | 16:05 |
| diverse | the code they write looks as if a 2 year old was mashing the keyboard to make code | 16:07 |
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| prologic | http://kdb.vz1.bne.shortcircuit.net.au/ | 16:18 |
| prologic | sweet | 16:18 |
| prologic | I finally have CNAME hosted containers on my Desktop working | 16:19 |
| diverse | more power to you | 16:19 |
| prologic | CRUX + Docker (skydns + skydns + hipache) + *.vz1.bne.shortcircuit.net.au wildcard A record | 16:19 |
| prologic | well it's kinda awesome | 16:19 |
| prologic | because now I can spin up any web app I want | 16:19 |
| prologic | and expose it to the web :) | 16:19 |
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| joacim | high pitched whine coming from my old 440bx-based pc, 12V rail measures almost 14V | 17:04 |
| joacim | fun stuf | 17:04 |
| joacim | stuff | 17:04 |
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| diverse | is there a way to clear all the join/quit messages in weechat? | 18:57 |
| nogagplz | /filter add joinquit * irc_join,irc_part,irc_quit * | 18:59 |
| prologic | X-Chat: 1. Right Click Channel 2. Settings 3. Hide Join/Part Messages | 19:00 |
| nogagplz | yeah but xchat is an ancient piece of junk, all the cool kids use weechat | 19:01 |
| drijen | fuckin lies | 19:01 |
| drijen | weechat is for you newfangled whippersnappers | 19:01 |
| teK__ | /ignore #crux JOINS PARTS QUITS | 19:01 |
| drijen | yes. | 19:01 |
| teK__ | irssi | 19:01 |
| nogagplz | alright alright I'm leaving gran torino, no need to kill yourself | 19:02 |
| diverse | thanks nogagplz | 19:03 |
| diverse | ah so much cleaner the channel is | 19:06 |
| nogagplz | now just ignore drijen and your training is complete | 19:06 |
| diverse | drijen who? | 19:07 |
| diverse | :P | 19:07 |
| nogagplz | I have nothing left to teach you | 19:07 |
| diverse | rofl | 19:07 |
| prologic | yeah you whippersnappers | 19:11 |
| diverse | I was amused by drijen's words | 19:11 |
| diverse | in the good way | 19:12 |
| prologic | it was funny as | 19:12 |
| diverse | always good to bring laughter to this channel | 19:16 |
| joacim | Hello fellow kids | 19:22 |
| joacim | I use weechat too | 19:22 |
| diverse | drijen: got anymore remarks? | 19:23 |
| drijen | no just this | 19:27 |
| nogagplz | harder, faster, deeper | 19:28 |
| drijen | HNNNNGGGGG | 19:28 |
| nogagplz | also, do I still need to repair your tv | 19:28 |
| nogagplz | or are we done here | 19:28 |
| diverse | you both get along well | 19:29 |
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| BurnZeZ | /usr/include/gnu/stubs.h:7:27: fatal error: gnu/stubs-32.h: No such file or directory | 19:30 |
| BurnZeZ | When trying to build gcc | 19:30 |
| jaeger | you need glibc-32 installed | 19:31 |
| jaeger | it's the only -32 port that's required | 19:31 |
| BurnZeZ | What the crap | 19:31 |
| BurnZeZ | Why isn't it in the dependency list? | 19:31 |
| jaeger | because it's in core | 19:32 |
| diverse | hmm, didn't you use depinst? | 19:32 |
| BurnZeZ | Hmm | 19:32 |
| BurnZeZ | I wonder how it got removed | 19:32 |
| BurnZeZ | Yeah, depinst | 19:32 |
| jaeger | depinst won't catch it since it's not listed but the assumption is that core is always installed | 19:32 |
| diverse | weird | 19:32 |
| diverse | alrighty | 19:32 |
| BurnZeZ | Maybe I removed it without realizing | 19:32 |
| BurnZeZ | Thanks | 19:32 |
| jaeger | np | 19:33 |
| BurnZeZ | Oh god | 19:33 |
| BurnZeZ | glibc-32 won't install for the same reason | 19:33 |
| jaeger | yeah, it breaks the toolchain when it's gone... your best bet is to reinstall it from the ISO | 19:33 |
| diverse | or just chroot and pkgadd it | 19:34 |
| jaeger | well, the system should still be working, shouldn't need a chroot | 19:34 |
| BurnZeZ | Ah | 19:34 |
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| jaeger | just pkgadd from the ISO should do it | 19:34 |
| diverse | fair enough | 19:34 |
| BurnZeZ | I still have an old package of it | 19:34 |
| jaeger | or that | 19:35 |
| diverse | boom there you go | 19:35 |
| drijen | diverse: i've known nogagplz and Romster since like crux 1 point something | 19:36 |
| drijen | logn before that bastard child arch was born | 19:36 |
| diverse | ah a Crux veteran, nice | 19:36 |
| drijen | no, just an old fart | 19:37 |
| BurnZeZ | prt-get: updating glibc-32 from 2.16.0-6 to 2.19-1 | 19:37 |
| BurnZeZ | telinit: /dev/initctl: No such file or directory | 19:37 |
| BurnZeZ | -- Packages updated | 19:37 |
| BurnZeZ | glibc-32 [post: failed] | 19:37 |
| BurnZeZ | wut | 19:37 |
| BurnZeZ | What's this /dev/initctl? | 19:38 |
| jaeger | does that happen if you run "telinit U" manually? | 19:38 |
| BurnZeZ | Oh, this is init crap | 19:39 |
| diverse | drijen: is there anyway you can convince nogagplz to stop using arch? | 19:40 |
| BurnZeZ | jaeger: I don't use init | 19:40 |
| jaeger | then you probably don't need to worry about the post-install script | 19:41 |
| BurnZeZ | I just wrote some other script I use | 19:41 |
| jaeger | all it does is call "telinit U" | 19:41 |
| BurnZeZ | Alright, cool | 19:41 |
| drijen | diverse: no | 19:48 |
| diverse | :( | 19:48 |
| nogagplz | you reach a point where you learn all you can | 19:49 |
| nogagplz | and just want shit to be fast and easy | 19:49 |
| nogagplz | rather than wondering why you have no /dev/initctl :P | 19:50 |
| drijen | if that was the case, then why aren't you using slack. | 19:50 |
| nogagplz | because they only accept the impotent | 19:50 |
| drijen | in that case, you'd be king in a month | 19:50 |
| nogagplz | not before dethroning you though | 19:50 |
| drijen | sorry what | 19:50 |
| drijen | i can't hear you over the sound of my os not sucking | 19:51 |
| BurnZeZ | I just use 9front | 19:51 |
| nogagplz | says the microsoft shill | 19:51 |
| BurnZeZ | Plan 9 master race | 19:51 |
| drijen | lies, openbsd | 19:51 |
| BurnZeZ | 9front >>>>> OpenBSD | 19:51 |
| nogagplz | oh lord the theo de raadt cult | 19:51 |
| drijen | haha | 19:51 |
| drijen | i won't deny that guys genius, but man, he traded it for a congenial attitude | 19:51 |
| BurnZeZ | 9front has theo(1) | 19:52 |
| BurnZeZ | http://man.aiju.de/1/fortune | 19:52 |
| BurnZeZ | ; theo | 19:53 |
| BurnZeZ | God bless the people who employ you, they need the blessing. | 19:53 |
| diverse | Well, I am glad they are doing the LibreSSL effort | 19:54 |
| BurnZeZ | Linux would be far worse without OpenBSD picking up the slack | 19:54 |
| BurnZeZ | Userspace tools and programs, that is | 19:54 |
| nogagplz | shouldn't the blame be placed firmly on gnu then | 19:55 |
| nogagplz | and linux be used with an openbsd userland | 19:55 |
| BurnZeZ | I do something similar with my linux machine | 19:56 |
| BurnZeZ | I use plan9port userspace | 19:56 |
| BurnZeZ | Sabotage is really cool, but butch is a mess | 19:56 |
| BurnZeZ | So what I do is use sabotage to compile programs statically linked with musl | 19:57 |
| BurnZeZ | My linux system is CRUX with heavy modifications, and then I use sabotage inside chroot for compiling some things statically | 19:57 |
| diverse | Oh yeah, I think I remember you now | 19:58 |
| diverse | Wanting to create your own variant of Crux with other userland tools | 19:59 |
| diverse | but you weren't sure back then | 20:00 |
| diverse | about the userland part I mean | 20:01 |
| diverse | http://www.tedunangst.com/flak/post/origins-of-libressl | 20:03 |
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| timcowchip | does crux have a ca-certificates.crt? | 20:35 |
| diverse | i think it does | 20:35 |
| timcowchip | I see a cups.crt and a stunnel.crt | 20:35 |
| timcowchip | in /etc/ssl/certs/ | 20:36 |
| diverse | I don't have it either, don't worry about it | 20:36 |
| timcowchip | I get 'SSL handshake failed' with uzbl | 20:37 |
| jaeger | /etc/ssl/cert.pem, provided by ca-certificates | 20:37 |
| timcowchip | thanks @jaeger | 20:38 |
| jaeger | np | 20:42 |
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| teK__ | https://github.com/usrbinnc/netcat-cpi-kernel-module | 22:40 |
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| BitPuffin | o/ | 23:51 |
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