IRC Logs for #crux Wednesday, 2014-05-21

prologicI haven’t tried to automate it no00:00
prologicI could look into writing such a tool00:00
prologicbut it’s a once-off thing anyway00:00
prologicif you have many similar machines00:00
prologicyou’d just copy the kernel config00:00
prologicthe script does :)00:00
BitPuffinwait wtf00:00
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BitPuffinit's complaining about things I did add00:00
BitPuffinwhat the00:00
prologicdo you have multiple kernel configs? :)00:01
prologicI think it checks /proc/config.gz00:01
prologiccan’t remember00:01
BitPuffinwell no you have to say the path to it iirc00:01
BitPuffinbut I mean00:01
BitPuffinthe stuff I added to that config is gone00:01
prologicmaybe you forgot to compile it00:01
prologicor you accidently didn’t save it :)00:02
prologicI do that sometimes00:02
BitPuffinwell no because what I did was run script, copy thing, vim .config, add thing, :wq and then repeat00:02
prologicI’ve nver tried to edit the .config directly00:03
BitPuffinyeah it probably just overwrote everything lol00:03
prologicI’d say so00:04
prologicI’m not even sure if that actually works00:04
prologicI don’t think .config is the source of truth00:04
prologicand /proc/config.gz is obviously read-only from the running kernel00:04
BitPuffinI can't even remember what each option is lol00:04
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prologicwell done :)00:28
prologicso docker daemon works now? :)00:28
BitPuffincompiling kernel00:28
BitPuffinno I just got done fixing the configuration00:28
prologicyes it takes a few minutes00:29
BitPuffinlesson learned: when .config tells you not to edit manually, don't do it00:29
prologicoh i c00:29
prologicwell that’s your own fault then isn’t it :)00:29
prologicI *did think* manual editing wasn’t possible :)00:29
BitPuffinwell all of the methods are painful lol00:29
BitPuffinmake config does the silly thing where it asks a bunch of questions00:29
BitPuffinI'd like a prompt00:29
BitPuffinwhere you could go like CONFIG_BLABLA=m00:30
jaegermenuconfig isn't as painful as the others00:31
BitPuffinthat's the one I used00:32
BitPuffinstill really tedious though00:32
jaegerwell, we do ship a default config now with some decent choices in it00:33
BitPuffinit's the one I use00:34
BitPuffinit just doesn't come with configurations for docker :P00:34
BitPuffinI'm not saying it should though00:34
BitPuffinthat's how you end up with a shitty distro kernel :P00:34
prologicnow now we can’t have everything :)00:37
prologicor can we? :)00:37
BitPuffin% ps -A | grep docker00:43
BitPuffin  190 pts/0    00:00:00 docker00:43
BitPuffinand the logs seem happy00:44
prologicgreat :)00:45
prologicdocker run -i -t crux /bin/bash00:45
BitPuffindo I need sudo?00:46
BitPuffindocker group00:46
BitPuffinprologic: does the post install script create the group?00:49
BitPuffinI'm in the group00:50
BitPuffinor maybe I fucked the group up00:50
BitPuffinseems to work00:51
prologicyes it does00:53
prologicare you new to CRUX or something? :)00:53
prologicI normally set runscripts yes in /etc/prt-get.conf :)00:53
prologicso yeah00:53
prologicrun the pre-install script00:53
BitPuffinI ran it manually00:53
prologicfine ;)00:53
prologicafaik no CRUXer core developer or maintainer has tried to put rm -rf / or similar into a pre/post install script00:54
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prologicofc if they do I might just have to buy a plane ticket to where he/she lives and beat him/her around the head with a trout :)00:54
BitPuffinset runscripts to yes :)00:54
BitPuffinwell that's why you set up to run it as unpriveliged user00:55
BitPuffinOR in a docker :D00:55
prologicwell this is true00:56
prologicno more to the point00:56
prologicbackup backup backup00:56
prologiceven an expert can screw things up :)00:56
BitPuffinI'm gonna set up crons that uses tarsnap00:56
BitPuffinwill probably backup databases.. maybe email00:56
BitPuffinand stuff00:56
prologicif I were you (and I’m me)00:57
prologicI’d just Dockerize everything00:57
prologicand just backup your desktop /home/<user>00:57
prologickinda what I’m leaning towards more and more lately00:57
BitPuffinon desktop?00:57
BitPuffin(this is on server)00:57
prologicI’m Dockerizing most Desktop services too00:57
BitPuffinthat's awesome00:57
prologicOr Server00:57
prologiceither or00:58
BitPuffinI should do that as well00:58
prologicsame diff - just Servers don’t normally run Xorg :)00:58
BitPuffinwell I mean on server there is not much useful in /home/user00:58
BitPuffinin some cases00:58
prologicNo that’s true00:58
prologicbut if you Dockerize everything00:58
prologicyou needn’t care too much abot the actual host00:58
prologicjust backup your “volume containers"00:58
BitPuffinI can just move everything00:58
prologicnot the actual containers/iamges that run some service/software00:58
prologicjust teh data volumes00:58
prologici.e: use docker ovlumes and —volumes-from style00:58
BitPuffinI'll probably have cron jobs on my system that backs up the dockers and stuff to my local system00:59
prologicread the docs on it :)00:59
BitPuffinso that if it commits suicide I can just depoly it somewhere else temporarily00:59
BitPuffinyeah I'm now at the stage when I can start learning it better00:59
prologicdocker export <volume_container>00:59
prologiccopy it somewhere00:59
BitPuffinso next step is setting up a crux repository00:59
BitPuffinwhere I'll put an opensmtpd pkgfile00:59
prologicyou mean ports repo?00:59
prologicseveral of us just use github/bitbucket these days01:00
BitPuffinyup I know01:00
prologicand sometimes a simple httpup mirror somewhere to01:00
BitPuffinbut I am trying to bring as much as possible under my own umbrella01:00
prologicI do both and
BitPuffinbut yeah I might have backups to bitbucket or something01:01
BitPuffinbut I don't want to make bitbucket to be the main thing01:01
BitPuffinI want something that is controlled under my domain01:01
BitPuffinwellI guess I could point that to a bitbucket01:01
BitPuffinbut you get the point :P01:01
prologicif you care about privacy/securty — don’t put it on the web01:01
prologicotherwise go nuts01:01
BitPuffinwell that's why I'll backup to tarsnap01:04
BitPuffinbecause it's secure :D01:04
prologiccrashplan also does encrypted backups01:05
BitPuffinso I'll backup databases etc there. And if there is every anything important I need to backup (say improtant documents about economic stuff or whatever) I'll put it there as well01:05
BitPuffinis it open source?01:05
jaegergithub doesn't server the .files properly so you might want to avoid that01:08
prologiceven with it’s static hosting features?01:09
jaegeryeah, I copied my repo there recently to test it. serves Pkgfile, patches, etc. fine but not .md5sum or .footprint01:11
prologicgood to know01:15
prologicand kinda useless :)01:15
prologicperhaps I’ll write a gitup driver01:15
prologicin fact speaking of which01:15
prologicwhy don’t we provide gitup and hgup driers in ports?01:15
prologicI wrote hgup years ago I think and use it myself personally — a gitup would be trivially similar01:16
BitPuffinhg is the shit anyways :P01:41
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Romsterwhy does everyone say about rolling release.02:41
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prologicI don’t know03:02
prologicI’m not sure why you’d ever put a name to a release process in the first place03:02
prologicit means different things to different people03:02
prologicit’s ambgious at best03:02
prologicCRUX basically updates ports on a need by basis. CRUX updates and releases a new ISO roughly every year or so.03:03
prologicI don’t htink it gets any more formal than this really03:03
jaegerrolling release doesn't seem too ambiguous to me03:03
jaegercrux has official ISO releases and that's the supported upgrade path. that means NOT rolling release, period03:03
prologicand I wouldn’t call our update of ports on a need by basis “rolling release”03:04
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prologicRolling Release is actually documented as a concept03:05
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prologicBut I agree with you jaeger — CRUX does not implement Rolling Release at all03:06
prologicit would imply a new ISO and/or Images be built continaully03:06
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xveenrxtx: do you have any experience with nvidia-prime drivers?04:53
diversexvee: did you get the mate DE going?04:55
xveei played around with it a lot, but gave up :/05:03
xveei couldn't fix teh high cpu usage05:03
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nwehas someone got this problem before `Wed May 21 09:33:37 2014 ERROR: Linux route add command failed: external program exited with error status: 707:33
nwewhen I trying to setup my openvpn-connection07:34
nwein which package are route command in?07:39
frinnstin 3.1, none07:43
frinnstwe use "ip route" instead07:43
frinnststuff like this may be a problem though07:43
frinnstroute was a part of the ancient net-tools07:44
frinnstnetstat is also gone07:44
frinnstreplaced by "ss"07:44
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nwefrinnst: but it work yesterday.07:46
frinnsthow did you upgrade to 3.1 ? by ports or via iso?07:47
nwefrinnst: by ports07:47
nweprt-get update -fr $(prt-get listinst)07:47
frinnstok, so then the crux installer didnt remove it. that command will fail to update net-tools since the port is gone07:48
frinnstyou can either use the port from 3.0, or patch openvpn to use iproute2 instead07:48
frinnstldd /sbin/route show broken stuff, right?07:49
nwefrinnst: priv07:49
nwefrinnst: so I should install net-tools from 3.0 ?07:51
frinnsti'd patch openvpn to use iproute2 instead07:54
frinnstand remove net-tools07:54
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nwefrinnst: ty for the help :)07:58
nweyupp added --enable-iproute2 and rebuild openvpn07:58
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BitPuffinjaeger, prologic: I would call crux a rolling release11:27
BitPuffinor semi-rolling11:28
BitPuffinbecause the base (core) is mostly frozen during the release cycle, but everything else is updated as a new version comes out, until there is major breakage, and then we do a new release11:28
BitPuffinprologic: since you have everything dockerized, do you have to do a prt-get sysup on every docker when you want to update them?11:31
RomsterBitPuffin, have you even read what a rolling release is... crux is not.11:34
Romsterunless you make a clean environment and boot strap core with that then pkgadd those onto your system.11:34
Romsterthat's the only way it can be a rolling release system.11:34
Romsteror if you have built packages already off another upgraded crux install to add to your other box.11:35
BitPuffinRomster: no I haven't read about any formal definition or anything11:40
BitPuffinRomster: but basically it's like BSD, the base is stable, and the ports tree is rolling11:40
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z3brawhy doesn't "semi-rolling" fit crux ?11:41
BitPuffinexcept that we also stop updating branches of some ports collections when there is breakage and move that over to the next release, FreeBSD doesn't do that11:42
BitPuffinI dunno, I changed my mind to say semi, but Romster was still not happy :D11:42
RomsterBitPuffin, yes but you can't just upgrade core ports safely and expect nothing to break due to ABI changes.11:42
prologicBitPuffin, go read that article I psoted ealier11:43
prologicCRUX is not a rolling release distro :)11:43
Romsteryou may get lucky or yo make brake pkgutils/libarchive or the tool chain in the process of upgrading.11:43
prologicI'm not even sure how one could make it as such :)11:43
prologicMaybe if your system tracked upstream git/svn/hg repos of all software including the kernel11:44
Romsterthen you must use prebuilt packages off the iso for core to fix that. or not broken core packages on the system.11:44
Romsteri have done this myself on occasion and broke my system and fixed it again.11:44
prologicBitPuffin, no, I update the base image and rebuild the child image11:44
Romsterlast upgrade i used my chroto built core pkgadd all of core then sysup and revdep.11:44
prologicalthough tbh I don't really do that very often11:44
Romsterthat's as close to a rolling system as you can get11:44
prologicstill not rolling release :)11:45
prologicwe still update software to newer released versions11:45
prologicminus any bleeding edge ports of software that we use git/hg/svn sources for11:46
prologiceven then it's pinned to some revision11:46
BitPuffinRomster: that's why I said semi rolling11:49
BitPuffinanyways I don't really care11:59
BitPuffinhowever I do think it's better to call it semi rolling, because you get what you are generally looking for in a rolling release. So if someone asks "is crux rolling release" who is looking for that and you answer no, then they will think that it's more like debian or ubuntu12:00
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prologicinteresting point of view :)12:10
prologicperhaps the next time someone assk taht12:10
prologicI'll ask them to clarify what they mean :)12:10
prologicor what they're looking for in a distro :)12:10
diverseThen how about this? Crux can be considered a rolling distro, but not a rolling release? The differences are in the "release" category.12:12
diversebut maybe there is a better term for what I said.12:13
prologiceven Arch is considered a rolling release distro here12:19
prologicAnd Arch is basically a copy/clone/fork of CRUX in many ways :)12:19
prologicSo *shrugs*12:19
diverseyeah, "rolling" is too confusing.12:19
prologicIHMO the article is highly opinionated12:20
prologicon one hand they talk about contious development vs. released versions12:20
prologicand in the same breath count major linux distros as rolling releaseses12:20
prologicas jaeger said which I agree with12:20
prologicCRUX is not a rolling release distro12:20
prologicquite frankly I don't see how the ones mentioned in the article are either12:20
prologicthe text that describes this term is conflicting12:21
prologicIn software development, a rolling release or rolling update development model refers to a continually developing software system; this is instead of a standard release development model which uses software versions that must be reinstalled over the previous version. Rolling software, instead, is continually updated, in contrast to standard release software which is upgraded between versions. Rolling release development models are one of many type12:21
prologics of software release life cycles and, in terms of software development methodology in general, rolling release development models are less common than standard release development models in most mainstream software sectors, such as operating systems.12:21
prologicUpdating a port and bumping it's version perhaps fixing it's source url and updating .md5sum and .footprint file(s) does not fit this very well.12:21
diverseokay, let's throw away the term "rolling" and use a different marketing term to describe Crux better?12:22
prologicWe're simply updating ports that build softwre packages to the latest upstream versions we find available.12:22
prologicI'm all ears :012:22
prologicCRUX is a shiny clean distro?12:26
prologicshiny because we keep software ports up-to-date as best we can? :)12:26
prologicCRUX is a update-it-yourself distro :)12:27
z3bralike that term12:29
z3brabut the acronym looks like shit :P12:29
BitPuffinit's an upstream distro?12:34
diverseprologic: yeah that's a nice one. It also applies that fact you have to manually update between releases too.12:34
BitPuffinCRUX is a trolling release12:34
diverseRomster: a UIY distro?12:36
BitPuffina hyperscoping acceleration distro, that essentially eliminates all side fumbling12:36
z3braguys, I just ran revdeps12:39
z3braHow can I then force the package to rebuild ?12:40
z3brashould I `pkgmk -f` them all ?12:40
prologicpass it into prt-get update12:40
BitPuffinwith flag -fr12:40
prologicprt-get update -fr $(revdep blah)12:40
prologicpretty common use case actually12:40
z3brait will just use the package I build previously12:40
z3bra-fr okay12:41
BitPuffinfor "force rebuild"12:41
prologicpretty common with lots of library brekage12:41
diversez3bra: now update-it-yourself!12:41
prologicprecisely :)12:41
prologicUIY :)12:41
prologicyou have the power :)12:41
BitPuffinthat's the worst term xD12:41
z3brabut not the commands12:41
BitPuffinUpdate Ports On Your Own12:42
prologicCRUX == CReate yoUr own linuX12:43
BitPuffinfar fetched12:43
prologicI wish sometimes that people would stop labelling things really12:43
frinnstthe official crux logo:
prologiclabels tend to get really abmigious fast12:43
BitPuffinsometimes yes12:43
prologicand often subjective12:43
frinnstoops, ugly url12:43
BitPuffinbut it can also be useful12:43
prologicif all agree on the label12:44
frinnstCRUX.. lacking basics since 200112:44
prologicbut as we've just discovered with "Rolling Release"12:44
prologiceven the wikipedia article is ambigious and conflicting12:44
prologicso :(12:44
prologicfrinnst, +1 :)12:44
BitPuffinwell at least rolling release isn't cloud12:44
prologicit really should say12:44
prologicCRUX lacking bells 'n whilstles since 200112:44
prologicbut I still like the old logo12:44
BitPuffinCRUX - Batteries Never Included12:45
prologicyeah :)12:45
diversesigh, I liked the UIY idea12:45
BitPuffinCRUX - Powered by coal12:45
z3braCRUX - you're the battery12:45
BitPuffinCRUX - You are the slave12:45
prologicpronounciations anyone? :)12:45
prologicCRUX You Eee?12:46
z3bracrux UI12:46
BitPuffinCRUX - Giving you opportunities for cofee breaks since 200112:47
BitPuffinI think we should have a prettier website than arch12:49
BitPuffinjust because crux is such a pretty distro12:49
z3braI prefer crux's one12:49
z3braas crux12:49
z3braMaybe it lacks organisation when it comes to docs12:49
prologicnah not really12:50
prologicthe Docs == Handbook12:50
frinnstCRUX - happily dying since 200712:50
prologicthe rest is just user contributed wiki articles on random stuff12:50
z3braprologic, why the wiki then ?12:50
prologicwell it's useful in ways12:50
prologicit's often quite old and stale though12:50
prologictis is the nature of wikis sadly12:50
diversefrinnst: wtf12:50
prologicI think CRUX ought to have it's own Stackoverflow Q&A12:50
prologicthat could see some usefulness and more liveiness12:51
z3brafrinnst, interresting read12:54
z3braThat'd end up in an archlinux clone, imo12:54
prologicwe could set this up for CRUX :)12:55
BitPuffinfrinnst: what it's not dying lol12:55
prologicI just saw Docker migrate it's mailing list to it today12:55
BitPuffinyeah I also think you'd end up with arch12:56
z3brawhat the ... oO12:56
BitPuffinprologic: yeah we should definitely have a discourse I think12:56
z3braprologic, that's the happy mix of bbs + mail-list12:57
BitPuffindiscourse is good12:57
prologicfrinnst, isn't that the guy behind Arch?12:57
BitPuffinpretty sure arch started way before 2007?12:57
prologicI didn't read the whole post12:57
prologicbut it's BS12:57
prologicpkgutils from C++ to C was actually a good move IHMO12:57
prologicC is a simpler language and toolset than C++12:58
z3braC++ to C is always a good move12:58
Romsterit took a year to get a patch in actualyl it might of been 3 years *shrugs*12:58
prologicless dependencies and you can still write clean (if not cleaner code)12:58
Romsterbut it got there in the end.12:58 :)12:58
BitPuffinz3bra: well not always, but in this case it is12:58
BitPuffinprologic: well any C is valid C++, so if you write C and compile it with a C++ compiler the code will be as clean :P12:59
z3brafrinnst, what's that ?12:59
z3brathe upcoming domain ?12:59
BitPuffinRomster: maybe we could benefit from something like a gitlab though12:59
prologicBitPuffin, yes of course12:59
z3braor just propositions ?12:59
prologicbut that wasn't my point :)12:59
BitPuffinprologic: I agree though, C is clean :)12:59
BitPuffinalthough has many flaws12:59
BitPuffinbecause of its age12:59
BitPuffinbut yeah12:59
prologiconly as many as there are flawed C developers :)13:00
prologicit is otherwise assembly13:00
BitPuffinprologic: one advantage to writing C in C++ is that you get references13:00
prologicjust with a nicer syntax13:00
z3bramaybe it's just binary that is flawed then13:00
BitPuffinwell it's not really assembly13:00
prologicit kinda is :)13:00
prologicpretty damn close13:00
BitPuffinassembly doesn't have functions13:00
prologicif you've ever tried to write a compiler (and I have)13:01
prologicC is not far off13:01
z3brafunctions are just assembly's labels13:01
prologicyes it does :)13:01
prologicassembler has functions13:01
BitPuffinwell I know there are labels and stuff13:01
BitPuffinbut it's much more manual13:01
prologichow do you think your CPU functions :)13:01
BitPuffinC is still an abstractions13:01
z3brathat's the point13:01
BitPuffinI know13:01
prologicit's not much though13:01
BitPuffinI'm just saying it's not really assembly with a different syntax13:01
prologicx86 assmbler13:01
z3braIf C was like assembly, then it would be named13:01
prologicJMP RET CALL13:01
prologicit's all there13:01
prologicC translates rather nicely13:02
BitPuffinI'm not saying that it is python or anything13:02
prologicit's always been the embedded low-level develpopment tol of choice13:02
BitPuffinbut it's not assembly13:02
prologicfor a very good reason :)13:02
BitPuffinI can write C, but I can't write assembly at the moment13:02
BitPuffinbut yes13:02
BitPuffinif you compile C, and look at the assembly, you can kind of see the similarities13:02
prologicif you write pure C13:02
prologicwith no libs linked13:03
prologicand use a few int 80 calls13:03
prologic(i.e: inline assmbler)13:03
prologicit's pretty much identical as if you wrote it in fasm, masm, tasm, etc13:03
prologicyou can even write it as bin13:03
prologicno elf header13:03
BitPuffinC is great13:04
prologicso no C !+ Assembly - but it's pretty damn close :)13:04
BitPuffinC is assembly++13:04
prologicgood analogy :)13:04
prologicC is to Assembly as C++ is to C13:04
prologic*meh* :)13:04
BitPuffinC is C13:04
BitPuffinWe all know it, we sometimes like it, sometimes hate it, life's good13:05
prologicthat post frinnst linked to is pretty funny13:05
prologicwe're still here and kicking aren't we?13:05
prologicthe biggest reason CRUX will never see anything like aht that post talked about is time and effort13:06
BitPuffinand I'm relatively new eeven13:06
prologicand complexity13:06
BitPuffinso ha13:06
prologicyou would ruin CRUX's simplicity13:06
prologicnot to mention the sheer lack of resources that we just don't have :)13:06
prologicthere once was a project I started with an old CRUXer from AU13:07
prologicto develop a graphical tool to prt-get13:07
prologicfor the desktop13:07
prologicwe never did finish it though13:07
frinnstteh horror ;)13:07
prologicthere wasn't much interest really nor uptake13:07
prologicand lost motivication13:07
frinnstyou should make it depend on gnome13:07
BitPuffinI'd be happy on working on making the contribution process simpler though13:07
prologicf' no? :)13:07
frinnstfor maximal horriddness :)13:07
z3braAnyway, in this mail, I found an idea interesting13:07
z3braA community based repo13:08
prologicBitPuffin, go on...13:08
z3bra(typically, AUR)13:08
prologicby contribution process I assume you mean contrib ports?13:08
z3brathat'd be easier to share ports13:08
prologicI've been wanting this for a while myself too13:08
prologicportdb is great13:08
prologicbut we could develop something with more convenience13:08
BitPuffinwell I just mean having a more central place for development13:08
prologicthat doesn't affect CRUX itself13:08
z3brabut you have to mail the dev to add your ports and such13:08
prologicbut rather the users of it13:08
prologici.e: a web service / web app13:09
prologicprolem is (still)13:09
prologicrequires time/energy/effort13:09
prologicI can probably spare an hour or two a week13:09
prologicbut I'm pretty flat out myself :)13:09
BitPuffinit doesn't happen over night13:09
prologicbeen meaning to do something with it13:09
BitPuffincrux foundation should sue you13:10
BitPuffinoh wait13:10
prologice.g: - automated build of all packages13:10
z3brawho got a server ?13:10
prologicwhat f'n crux foundation :)13:10
prologicme :)13:10
BitPuffinI also have a server now13:10
BitPuffinrunning crux13:10
prologicsome Xeon beefy ass box over at codero13:10
BitPuffinbut it's just a weeny vps13:10
BitPuffincuz I¨'m poor13:11
prologicI want to move my server (soon) to hetzne.de13:11
prologicmore resources for less $$$13:11
prologica few ideas if you will13:11
prologica web service / web app for better more conveniant ports sharing13:12
prologicweb based editor for Pkgfiles that it hosts13:12
z3brawho needs that ?13:12
prologicserver backed builds in a mini (say Dockerized) clsuter13:12
prologicso you don't have to test locally13:12
prologiconce you're happy you can commit and sign the port13:12
prologicquick and easy functionality to flag a port out of date13:13
prologicmaybe even github/bitbucekt style forking13:13
BitPuffinz3bra: it's a good way to have it verify for everyone around not just the maintainer that it bulids as it should13:14
BitPuffinand doesn't have the owner z3bra:z3bra ahem13:14
z3brashould be fixed now13:14
BitPuffinprologic: do you have a dev repo for this?13:15
prologicadd in existing portdb features13:15
BitPuffinat github or bitbucket?13:15
prologicsuch as searching, listing13:15
prologicand add in rendering of README13:15
BitPuffinand an API :)13:15
prologicand even README as reStructedText ( we can detect it by inspecting it )13:15
z3brabut I like the idea of a centralized portdb, where everyone can submit a port13:15
BitPuffinthen I'll just build my prutt tool around that13:15
prologicoh yes13:15
prologicand an api13:15
BitPuffinprologic: well you could just do or README.rst13:16
prologicwith rsync and http syncing access13:16
prologicBitPuffin, that would break prt-get readme13:16
prologicbetter to just partly parse the README13:16
prologicand identify what it is13:16
BitPuffinalternatively we could have some first line13:16
prologicthat's just as good too13:16
BitPuffina "doctype"13:16
BitPuffinso if you don't put anything it's plaintext13:16
BitPuffinsounds good to me13:17
BitPuffinso do you have a repo or nay?13:17
BitPuffinfor the webapp13:17
prologicI'm just throwing ideas around13:17
BitPuffinwell we should make one :)13:17
prologicyou sound interested though :)13:17
prologicwhat's your skillset like?13:17
BitPuffinBut mainly games related and web13:18
prologicbut my strenghs are python and backend web apis/services13:18
BitPuffinyeah I'm more of a backend guy as well, but I don't mind the frontend either13:18
BitPuffinexcept for that it's fucking retarded13:18
BitPuffinbut it's fine13:18
prologicI'm good with the infrastructure + backend(s)13:18
prologicmaking the project actually work :)13:18
BitPuffinI'm probably more weak with infrastructure itself13:19
BitPuffinbut I like writing software systems13:19
prologicyou just have to be better at UI than me :)13:19
prologicI'm blind13:19
BitPuffinI possibly am :P13:19
prologicso UI is kinda hard :)13:19
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BitPuffinso you wanna do it with python?13:19
prologice.g (my latest work):
prologicI would - yes13:19
BitPuffinwell that's fairly clean and nice to be honest13:20
prologicand I'd sit the service (Dockerized ofc) on ports.cruxlinux.org13:20
prologicwith user signup/login13:20
prologicOpenID/OAuth/Github/Bitbucket support13:20
prologicand regular user/pass13:20
BitPuffinsounds good13:20
BitPuffinthere is a problem though13:21
BitPuffinwhat happens if you die13:21
prologicRomster will take it over :)13:21
BitPuffinit should be easy to move/export all the data13:21
BitPuffinand redeploy13:21
prologicI think we should MIT/BSD license it13:21
BitPuffinin the worst case13:21
prologicand get at least another CRUXer interested too :)13:22
BitPuffinI'm a CC0 advocate myself but MIT is fine13:22
BitPuffinOr ISC13:22
prologicjust in case we both get hit by a bus :(13:22
BitPuffinmaybe we are having a nice walk together13:22
BitPuffinand BAM13:22
prologicbut yes I agree otherwise13:22
prologicwe could mirror the service/webapp on too13:22
prologicand otherwise keep it all open and accessible13:22
BitPuffinit should all be very transparent13:23
prologicISC is basically what?13:23
prologicdo whatever you want I don't care?13:23
BitPuffinI_R is mit but13:23
BitPuffinISC is MIT but shorter*13:24
BitPuffinI think it's shorter at least13:24
BitPuffinit's what OpenBSD uses13:24
BitPuffin"The ISC license is a permissive free software license written by Internet Systems Consortium (ISC). It is functionally equivalent to the simplified BSD and MIT licenses, with language that was deemed unnecessary by the Berne convention removed."13:24
prologicI see :)13:27
prologicI may use this for my own proejcts going forward13:27
prologicit is shorter and sesinct :)13:27
prologicin any case13:27
prologicI'm up for such a project13:27
prologicas long as we have enough steam :)13:27
prologicit *could* pitter out like the gui prt-get13:27
prologicbut desktop guis are *hard*13:28
prologicmuchh harder tahn web apps ihmo13:28
prologicand honestly who would use a graphical prt-get?13:28
prologicI know I wouldn't :) I hate guis13:28
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diversefrinnst: ^giant text wall13:29
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BitPuffinI wouldn't13:31
BitPuffinI never use gui package managers13:31
BitPuffineven when they are available13:31
BitPuffinprologic: we should probably move the documentation stuff to this app as well right?13:32
BitPuffinMaybe not for reading13:32
BitPuffinbut for editing13:32
prologicsorry what documentation?13:33
BitPuffinhandbook etc13:33
prologicseparate thing13:33
prologicunix philosophy :)13:33
BitPuffinso this is for ports?13:33
prologicthe actual handbook is fine ihmo13:34
z3braprologic, what's that "READS" thing13:34
prologicbut it could maybe be written/ported to rst13:34
prologicand hosted up on readthedocs.org13:34
prologicfor example13:34
BitPuffinI think it should13:34
prologicbut that's just ihmo13:34
prologicand docs.crux.nu13:34
BitPuffinthat would make it more printable13:34
BitPuffinyou could compile it to a pdf13:34
prologicand nuke the wiki version with a link to it13:34
BitPuffinand print an actual handbook hehe13:34
prologicand it could be styled with a nice sphinx theme13:35
BitPuffinwe should set up a repository13:35
prologicside track project13:35
BitPuffinI prefer hg but we'll use whatever floats your boat13:35
prologicI prefer hg :)13:35
BitPuffinokay so bitbucket it is then xD13:35
prologichow about
BitPuffinyou wanna set the organization up or should i?13:36
BitPuffinor team13:36
BitPuffinoh you already did it13:36
BitPuffinyou quickieman13:36
prologicyeah :)13:36
prologicI've been using bitbucket since the dawn of it's existenace :)13:36
prologicwhat's your user id?13:36
BitPuffinmy november 2013 statistic is not accurate13:37
prologicadded as an admin13:37
prologicgo nuts13:37
BitPuffinI was using a separate account, which I turned in to a team instead13:37
BitPuffinalright let's nuke13:37
prologicat this stage I haven't a clue13:38
BitPuffinso what do we want to call the repo13:38
prologicporthub is perfect :)13:38
prologiccreate that13:38
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BitPuffincreating it13:38
prologicand create a static dir13:38
prologicand start throwing together a bootstrap ui :)13:38
prologicI'll start on a backend in the morning :)13:38
z3bra ?13:38
Romsteryou and your million and one projects. first it's docker now this what's next.13:39
BitPuffindocker is not prologic's project13:39
BitPuffinit's dotcloud's13:39
BitPuffinand docker will be an important part of the infrastructure13:39
prologicyeah thanks BitPuffin :)13:40
prologicI have a defender :)13:40
prologicwoot woot13:40
BitPuffinprologic: btw we should like automate backups of the docker image for the site13:40
prologicI always have a millino and one things I do :)13:40
prologicwhat else is new :)13:40
BitPuffinthe problem with making it public is that we don't want people's password hashes being public13:40
prologicBitPuffin, all over it :)13:41
prologiclet's Dockerize from the start13:41
prologicagreed? :)13:41
prologicand automated everything13:41
BitPuffinfor sure13:41
BitPuffinI can't start today, I still need to cross off setting up an email server off my list13:41
BitPuffinbefore my domain expires13:41
BitPuffinso I don't have to renew my expensive email forwarding :P13:41
prologicI can at least throw together a quick template13:41
BitPuffinthat'd be great13:42
prologicand mini web app backend that just servces it up :)13:42
BitPuffinso I can use a templating engine from the get go13:42
BitPuffinare we using django or what python thing13:42
prologicand +Jinja2 probably13:43
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prologicKISS :)13:43
BitPuffinjinja is the templating stuff?13:43
BitPuffincircuits looks cool13:44
prologicit is :)13:44
BitPuffinI would use it for my website if I didn't prefer strong typing13:44
prologicoh poo13:44
prologicI don't have a zone setup for cruxlinux.org13:45
prologicstrong typing?13:45
prologicPython is strongly typed :)13:45
BitPuffinprologic: static and strong then13:45
prologicahh :)13:45
BitPuffinie not being able to do a = 1 and then a = '1'13:46
prologicYou could use typedecorator13:46
prologicbut tbh I actually prefer dynamic13:46
BitPuffinI want my type errors caught at compiletime13:46
BitPuffinthat's fine13:46
prologicwe could debate that till the cows come home13:46
BitPuffinI'm me and you are you. Since you like python and will be the primary backend guy, that's what we use, it's practical :)13:46
prologicbut it's also a highly opinionated and subjective topic :)13:46
prologicone in which ihmo comes down to discipline more than anything13:47
prologicI (in Python) can code just as well as a C developer with all it's type sfatey13:47
prologicfor one reason only13:47
prologicwell we'll need lots of JS too :)13:48
BitPuffinit does, but imo it is good with a language that enforces the discipline, so if you have an un-disciplined asshole on your team he can't write shitty weird typed code13:48
BitPuffinprobably jquery yeah13:48
prologicyeah that's jsut it though13:48
prologicI wouldn't have a undisciplined asshole on my team :)13:48
prologicif I could help it ofc :)13:48
prologicoften (upper mgmt.) you have no cnotrol over who  you work with13:48
prologicor against :P13:48
BitPuffinEither way, I think languages enforcing it is a good thing, you don't, and that's fine :D13:48
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prologicsome folk just shouldn't be developers <period>13:49
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prologicone of the things circuits does is captures all exceptions and logs them13:49
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BitPuffinthat's nice13:50
prologicso your app/webapp/whatever doesn't horribly crash if a developer does somethig stupid13:50
prologicyou might have a nice tight rock solid core for example13:50
prologicwith many plugins that you add over time13:50
prologica badly written plugin won't take down the app13:50
BitPuffinthat's how it should be13:51
BitPuffinI think I'll be doing somehting more DIY with my own websites13:51
BitPuffinusing rust probably13:51
BitPuffingrr diverse13:51
diversejoin the dark side, we have cookies!13:52
BitPuffinwell to be fair the language has gotten pretty good13:52
diverseyou might want to check out the Teepee lib for Rust13:53
diverseask ChrisMorgan about it13:54
BitPuffinshould i trust a library that has pee in its name though?13:55
BitPuffinlooks neat13:56
BitPuffinalthough I can't find the source13:57
BitPuffinwow you code fast :P14:02
BitPuffin10 000 lines~14:02
prologicI do a *lot* of reuse14:03
BitPuffinprologic: by the way we should probably employ a model where nobody puts their own code in master or something like that14:03
BitPuffinmaybe not in the beginning though14:04
prologicYou mean like:
BitPuffinthe way docker does it14:12 and should resolve soon14:12
prologicpretty much the same process more or less14:13
prologicwe can write a shorter version if you like :)14:13
BitPuffinbasically when you are done with something you do a pull request14:13
BitPuffinshorter than what?14:13
prologicthe circutis developer docs and processes :)14:13
prologicsweet :)14:14
prologicresolves from here already14:14
BitPuffinyeah we shouldn't need something as long :P14:15
BitPuffinonly if more people join14:15
BitPuffinwe'd need thorough docs14:15
BitPuffinbut basically, KISS, when you have something that works, make a PR and the other person will review it and merge :P14:15
prologicfrinnst, seriously wtf is going on with that ml thread14:21
prologicI'm quite shocked tbh14:21
prologicBitPuffin, *nods* *nods* :)14:21
BitPuffinml thread?14:22
prologicdon't nkow who this fellow is14:24
prologicbut the tone is rather negative14:24
prologicand his/her responses are rather long winded14:24
prologicpoor new guy14:24
prologicall he wanted was some pretty icons for xfce14:25
BitPuffinwhat thread are you talking about?14:26
BitPuffinthe one about crux dyin?14:26
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BitPuffinoh this is happening now?14:32
BitPuffinI gotta remember to signup for ml14:32
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BitPuffinprologic: who is having a negative tone?14:34
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frinnstprologic: no clue, guess he is also having a bad day, eh BitPuffin ? :)14:38
BitPuffinYou mean Walter?14:39
BitPuffinIt happens, as long as we all talk it out it ends up ok I think :)14:40
joacimI remember walter from syv søstre14:40
joacimthe german bastard child14:40
frinnstlol! that drama was awesome14:41
BitPuffinare you discriminating germans now?14:41
frinnstit was shown on swedish tv too14:41
frinnstRatings: 3.6/1014:42
BitPuffinah a movie14:42
frinnstwtf, obvious 10/1014:42
prologicnice one14:42
prologicanyway I'm off to bed14:42
joacimindeed. I think I saw every episode14:43
frinnstno, a tv soap14:43
prologicBitPuffin, I created a "project" repo14:43
prologicto track project tasks/issues unrelated to a particular repo14:43
BitPuffinprologic: oh I see14:43
BitPuffinso basically to track future projects under the crux umbrella14:43
BitPuffinor something like that14:43
prologicstuff that doesn't have a better pale (yet)14:43
prologiccreate a website, then future website issues/tasks go into it's own repo :)14:44
prologicupdate the zone14:44
joacimwhen replying to ml. is reply-all the correct way?14:44
BitPuffinby the way14:44
prologicoh we have no repo for that :)14:44
prologicbecause I run the zones :)14:44
joacimor should i just reply to the list itself14:44
BitPuffinwe should add more people to the admin14:44
BitPuffinsuch as frinnst, jaeger and Romster14:44
prologicfeel free to add them :)14:44
prologicas long as they have bb accounts :)14:44
BitPuffinyeah that's a prerequisite14:45
BitPuffinif you guys wanna be added say your username and I'll handle it14:45
BitPuffinso prologic can sleep :)14:45
prologicI know Romster does :)14:45
prologicyes yes14:45
prologicmust sleep :)14:45
prologicthis should be fun :)14:45
prologiclet's see how quickly we can knock this one off14:46
prologicthen build packages.cruxlinux.org14:46
prologican automated signed package building service14:46
prologiccompatible with pkg-get14:46
prologicat least for x86 for now14:46
BitPuffinyeah no arm for now14:47
prologicARM will come when Docker itself is fully supported on ARM :)14:47
BitPuffinwe should be able to set up QEMUs on the servers though running arm14:47
prologichint hint :)14:47
prologicautomated buildings via Docker14:48
prologicand a bunch of tool(s)14:48
BitPuffinfrinnst: I'd love it if you just would have said "Top posting is the correct way to post to a mailinglist" and left it at that, just to induce rage XD15:13
BitPuffinjoacim: I believe the correct way is to just send to the list, but it makes no difference really15:17
joacimi decided to fuck it and hit reply-all15:19
BitPuffinthat's ok :)15:19
joacimseems like some people hit reply-all and some just replies to the mailinglist.15:20
joacimfrom looking at the to and cc fields of posters15:20
BitPuffinI don't know why he's saying that a fully featured desktop environment is "wrong" there is no right and wrong15:21
BitPuffinreply all requires less work15:21
BitPuffinone click15:21
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joacimindeed =)15:25
joacimonly thing that matters is what you think is useful to you15:25
joacimor is just comfortable wit15:25
BitPuffinI might install KDE eventually15:34
BitPuffinI dunno15:34
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cruxbot[xorg.git/3.0]: xorg-gccmakedep: updated to 1.0.320:14
cruxbot[xorg.git/3.0]: xorg-imake: updated to 1.0.720:14
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frinnstteK_: nwe reports that --enable-iproute2 in openvpn works \o/20:28
teK_I will catchup early tomorrow20:28
teK_gotta finish this report by 23:5920:28
frinnstno worries. I also opened a FS bug and assigned it to you, just to be annoying20:29
teK_as usual20:29
teK_so no surprise there20:29
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rexichhello people. just a little question: any idea where can I find the blue penguin mascot of CRUX? I'd like to make a wallpaper and boot screens for my laptops. I've found it as a GIF animation, but no hi-res variant. :/20:31
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horrorStruckrexich: maybe here ?
rexichhorrorStruck: thank you very much. I'm looking for the blue penguin, I want to make my own wallpaper. but I'm viewing these pictures, thanks again.20:51
horrorStruckrexich: np but i'm afraid there's no logo in there. in fact it's not a CRUX specific logo, you can find in so;e open source software
xveedoes lilo work with uefi?20:56
teK_use elilo20:56
teK_we happen to have a port for that20:56
xveeoh alright. im assuming its very similar to a lilo setup20:57
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prologicmorn'n all21:06
rexichgood day :)21:07
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BitPuffinhay hay prologic21:17
prologicyou should be in bed no? :)21:18
BitPuffinyes but I ain't going21:19
joacimyou really should go to bed21:19
joacimdon't be a deadbeat like me21:19
BitPuffinIt's 23:1921:19
BitPuffinalthough I will be leaving for work before going to bed21:19
BitPuffinbecause I slept quite a long time today21:20
joacimyou sleep on the job?21:20
BitPuffinbut I'll sleep after :)21:23
prologicyou're a night shifter?21:26
BitPuffinsometimes yes21:26
prologicshall we care about things like graceful degredation as such?21:27
prologicor just expect that any user will have a JS enabled browser?21:27
BitPuffinwe should expect a modern browser imo21:27
prologicawesome :)21:27
prologicin that case21:27
prologicfamiliar with json hyper schema?21:27
prologicor json schema itself?21:27
BitPuffinjson I know21:28
prologicperfect :)21:28
prologicthat's what we'll use21:28
prologicfor the API21:28
prologicboth for the actual UI21:28
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prologicand as an actual API for end users21:28
prologicI've successfully (more or less) used it once before on a project at work21:28
BitPuffinwait what is this campared to just json21:29
prologicit helps if you have/use this ext to view json schema apis in your web brwoser21:29
prologicahh :)21:29
prologicglad you asked21:29
BitPuffinme too21:29
prologicadds discoverability, schema and self documatnion21:29
prologicof the apis21:29
prologicit's a w3c standard :)21:30
BitPuffinoh really?21:30
prologicYou can also see the same example api above via21:31
prologicvia the jsonary viewer that this app also bundles21:31
BitPuffinwell definitely gonna have to read about it21:33
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prologicfood for thought :)21:36
BitPuffinyeah we could use that for sure21:39
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teK_jees. Thats 44 years21:57
haltectsomething smells bad22:01
haltectmy bitchx script i guess22:04
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BitPuffinprologic: so the way I understand it, you create an image for whatever to run your app, then as you run, you can commit it to a separate image so that you also have snapshots of the data22:20
BitPuffinam I right?22:20
BitPuffinlike you'd use the bare image if maybe you need to spin up a separate instance of the same app that you've maybe built to scale in a master-master sort of fashion22:21
BitPuffinbut then if you just want to move the data to another server you create a new image22:21
BitPuffinam I groking this?22:21
BitPuffinprologic: something sort of weird, when I run docker run -i -t crux /bin/bash it just returns immediately22:39
BitPuffinI don't get a shell :s22:39
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BitPuffin619025388b80        crux:3.0            /bin/bash           About a minute ago   Exited (-1) 3 seconds ago                       high_pike22:54
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BitPuffinmaybe it is configured to use btrfs :)23:13
BitPuffinnope, devicemapper23:14
BitPuffinand libdevmapper is installed23:14
BitPuffinprologic: does the script check for devmapper?23:15
BitPuffinand kernel is configured to have device mapper support as well23:19
BitPuffinI'm stumped23:19
BitPuffin also looks fine?23:22
BitPuffin is a little suspicious23:25
BitPuffinlxc-checkconfig: wonder if that's relevant..23:33
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hlaveryBitPuffin...just experienced the same thing in a fresh crux3.0 install...docker seems to load but then no shell23:49
hlaveryin crux3.1rc? it doesn't get that far; some udevd conflict with multiple nodes same name.23:50
BitPuffinhlavery: I'm running 3.1rc23:56
BitPuffindoes your kernel pass the test_configureation_bla test?23:56
hlaveryYes, hunted down all the odd bits and it passed the test.23:58
BitPuffinyeah same23:58
BitPuffinweird that you don't get as far as me23:58
hlaveryI see the same thing in 3.0, 3.1 has been heavily used (as it were) and may need rebuilt.23:59

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