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| frinnst | I dont have any firmware installed for my r8169 - other than what comes with the kernel | 00:39 |
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| timcowchip | http://pastebin.com/xinU4ApZ prt-get install subversion | 02:30 |
| timcowchip | re-installing lilo after compiling my network driver into the kernel fix my innanet | 02:35 |
| timcowchip | :) | 02:35 |
| timcowchip | do I need to install apache to build subversion? | 02:37 |
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| timcowchip | http://pastebin.com/BcFwEBG3 apparently I can't install apache | 02:45 |
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| timcowchip | I think I need to install apr | 02:53 |
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| renovaatio | hi | 04:16 |
| renovaatio | i'm trying to setup a crux virtualbox guest on my windows box | 04:16 |
| renovaatio | it's tedious | 04:17 |
| renovaatio | do you know if I can find a prebuilt crux guest file somewhere? | 04:17 |
| jaeger | None I'm aware of. I used to keep one around but that was years ago | 04:18 |
| jaeger | Which part is giving you trouble? | 04:18 |
| renovaatio | well, kernel panic | 04:20 |
| renovaatio | kernel wont boot | 04:20 |
| jaeger | Most likely missing the proper disk controller support | 04:21 |
| renovaatio | hmkay | 04:21 |
| jaeger | Incidentally the default config that comes with the install should support pretty much everything virtualbox does | 04:21 |
| renovaatio | oh? | 04:22 |
| renovaatio | ok | 04:22 |
| renovaatio | i went a stp too far then | 04:22 |
| renovaatio | i must've fucked up my config | 04:22 |
| renovaatio | http://i.imgur.com/JRnlq3P.png | 04:24 |
| renovaatio | imma format and retry with the default configs | 04:24 |
| renovaatio | unless it's possible to revert to defaut configs? | 04:24 |
| renovaatio | where can I find the kernel sources in the install cd ? | 04:26 |
| jaeger | You can copy it from the CD while booted | 04:26 |
| jaeger | should be in /media/crux/kernel or similar | 04:27 |
| renovaatio | got it | 04:27 |
| renovaatio | crux is | 04:27 |
| renovaatio | impressive | 04:27 |
| renovaatio | ... | 04:27 |
| jaeger | :) | 04:27 |
| jaeger | So you don't have to format again if you don't want to, you can boot into the CD, mount your system, copy the config, chroot in, etc. | 04:28 |
| renovaatio | yeah doing it right now | 04:28 |
| renovaatio | never thought I'd find a distro that fits me that much | 04:29 |
| renovaatio | everything fro crux is A+ | 04:29 |
| renovaatio | exept the distribution of sources to be compiled instead of prebuilt packages | 04:29 |
| jaeger | Comes with the territory (source-based distro) :) | 04:31 |
| jaeger | while you're booted into the installation media, check which storage (and network) modules are in use with "lspci -k | grep 'in use'" | 04:35 |
| jaeger | then you can compare those with the kernel config to make sure you have the right things enabled | 04:35 |
| renovaatio | still kernel panic | 04:45 |
| renovaatio | i give up | 04:46 |
| jaeger | sorry :/ | 04:46 |
| renovaatio | i cant belive there is just crux and gentoo who are not using systemd | 04:46 |
| renovaatio | and slackware | 04:46 |
| renovaatio | all mainstream distros are using it | 04:47 |
| jaeger | eventually we won't have a choice, I imagine. When the eudev team gets tired of trying to avoid systemd | 04:47 |
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| renovaatio | jaeger: I can't believe no one is fighting against systemd | 05:02 |
| renovaatio | it is clearly an attempt at taking over GNU/Linux | 05:02 |
| renovaatio | it's a freaking pile of shit | 05:03 |
| Romster | just go back to static nodes when that happens | 05:05 |
| renovaatio | Romster: i'm a noob. please explain | 05:20 |
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| Romster | before udev came along we all had static nodes in /dev | 05:21 |
| Romster | mknod | 05:21 |
| Romster | with specal numbers for each device. | 05:22 |
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| Romster | udev made this dynamic and added/removed with udev rules then along came systemd shoved down everyones throats and udev was in that but could be compiled on its own. then they stopped that. | 05:23 |
| openfbtd | udev can still be used on its own | 05:24 |
| Romster | systemd makes me mad on every level | 05:24 |
| openfbtd | You can't build it separately, but you still can use it | 05:24 |
| openfbtd | I doubt that will continue for long though | 05:24 |
| Romster | eudev is a fork of that effort | 05:24 |
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| openfbtd | Yeah, I know, I use eudev on my arch desktops | 05:25 |
| Romster | crux 3.1 has eudev | 05:25 |
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| Romster | but its a relaly big fuck you to all other init systems when systemd is forced down everyones throats. | 05:25 |
| Romster | systemd makes me so mad -_- | 05:26 |
| openfbtd | It used to make me that mad | 05:27 |
| openfbtd | Now I'm just... meh | 05:27 |
| openfbtd | The suckless.org community will write their own udev if it comes to it | 05:27 |
| openfbtd | They hate systemd too :) | 05:27 |
| openfbtd | Well. | 05:27 |
| openfbtd | Some of them use mdev to manage desktop systems | 05:27 |
| Romster | just continue on eudev | 05:27 |
| Romster | but the kbus kernel thing is another thing... | 05:28 |
| Romster | hal/dbus mess | 05:28 |
| openfbtd | I don't understand the idea of putting dbus into the kernel | 05:28 |
| openfbtd | But if they make it accessible via a virtual file system, that'd be neat | 05:29 |
| Romster | the mess i wanna do is punch the heck out of pulseaudio/systemd | 05:29 |
| openfbtd | DBus that is easily integrated with shell scripts is better than the current one. | 05:29 |
| Romster | i bet it'll require sysemd, all apps will want systemd i'll go insane and just say fuck linux at that point. | 05:29 |
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| Romster | and probably move to bsd or something | 05:31 |
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| openfbtd | Well. Right now kdbus is a reimplementation of dbus in the kernel | 05:31 |
| openfbtd | What apps that you use _need_ dbus? | 05:32 |
| openfbtd | Aside from, say, pulseaudio | 05:32 |
| Romster | bet it forces the use of systemd unless you run another userspace daemon. | 05:32 |
| openfbtd | It doesn't and I don't see how you would justify doing that | 05:32 |
| Romster | notifications on desktops | 05:32 |
| openfbtd | It's just dbus in the kernel | 05:32 |
| Romster | yeah but userspace will be in systemd so then someone /else/ has to write that bit out of systemd. | 05:33 |
| openfbtd | AFAIK it's planned to be completely compatible with dbus | 05:34 |
| Romster | and knowing them they'll constantly change the API to make it impossible and give up on maintaining | 05:34 |
| openfbtd | Linus will thow kdbus out of the kernel if they do that | 05:34 |
| openfbtd | throw* | 05:34 |
| Romster | wish he threw systemd away | 05:35 |
| Romster | wtf was he thinking | 05:35 |
| Romster | is not the unix way | 05:35 |
| Romster | one tool one job. not the damn kitchen sink | 05:35 |
| Romster | seriously, linus the guy that wrote the kernel allows that junk in? | 05:35 |
| Romster | kay has been nothing but trouble. | 05:36 |
| openfbtd | Linus can't do anything about a userspace program | 05:36 |
| openfbtd | systemd isn't a part of the kernel | 05:36 |
| openfbtd | And kdbus is actually a good idea | 05:36 |
| Romster | no but the systemd crap thrown into the kernel... | 05:36 |
| Romster | kdbus should of been done ages ago | 05:37 |
| openfbtd | Compared to having dbus in the userspace | 05:37 |
| openfbtd | I personally don't like dbus _at all_ | 05:37 |
| Romster | hal/dbus is a mess. and the heck run systemd as the main 0 pid? | 05:37 |
| openfbtd | But I'm a very strong supporter of the KISS way, and dbus is not KISS | 05:37 |
| openfbtd | PID 1. It's 1. | 05:37 |
| Romster | the once stable history of linux is about to become a pile of unstable crap like windows. | 05:37 |
| Romster | thought crap starts at 0 in computers. | 05:38 |
| Romster | anyways got to the point that i don't care too much anymore. | 05:39 |
| openfbtd | But the pids start with 1. | 05:41 |
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| Romster | just too much shit to remember anymore. so i don't remember everything. | 05:45 |
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| timcowchip | configure: error: Package requirements (vdpau >= 0.4.1 x11-xcb xcb-dri2 >= 1.8) were not met: | 06:02 |
| timcowchip | can't update mesa3d | 06:02 |
| Romster | install libvdpau | 06:10 |
| Romster | look at prt-get deptree mesa3d see the missing packages. | 06:11 |
| timcowchip | ok thanks romster | 06:12 |
| timcowchip | I see you got a tint2 port | 06:12 |
| timcowchip | mine's broken | 06:12 |
| Romster | yeah newer that has the panel icon support. | 06:13 |
| timcowchip | you where right about using svn checkout not working | 06:13 |
| timcowchip | thanks for doing the port for it | 06:14 |
| Romster | no worries its a nice panel | 06:15 |
| timcowchip | yeah, I like it | 06:15 |
| timcowchip | I'll take my port down when I finish configuring rc3 | 06:17 |
| renovaatio | [01:29] <Romster> the mess i wanna do is punch the heck out of pulseaudio/systemd | 06:17 |
| renovaatio | i'd fight Poeterring | 06:17 |
| renovaatio | [01:37] <Romster> the once stable history of linux is about to become a pile of unstable crap like windows. | 06:19 |
| renovaatio | couldn't agree more | 06:19 |
| renovaatio | suckless is surprising | 06:20 |
| renovaatio | imma follow them more | 06:20 |
| Romster | hope some good comes out of it | 06:25 |
| renovaatio | otherwise | 06:25 |
| renovaatio | i don't know | 06:25 |
| renovaatio | i looked into bsd, and it does not look like a good choice | 06:26 |
| renovaatio | what remains? | 06:26 |
| renovaatio | slackware/gentoo ? | 06:26 |
| renovaatio | those are a weird bunch | 06:26 |
| Romster | i dunno i might of gone to reactos but that's been alpha for what 30 years -_- | 06:26 |
| Romster | plus the decoded dick in that channel, decided to kick me out of the channel, oh because i was idling too muc, and not long before that i got asked by aother guy if i wanted a reactos cloak. | 06:27 |
| Romster | and then decoded was a prick in #winehq and i felt like banning him but i didn't. | 06:28 |
| Romster | that was ages ago though too | 06:29 |
| Romster | idiots everywhere in every system | 06:30 |
| renovaatio | yeah | 06:30 |
| Romster | can not really win | 06:30 |
| renovaatio | when they are tamed, things are alright | 06:30 |
| renovaatio | but when their stupidity takes over, we're doomed | 06:31 |
| renovaatio | i'm thinking of that Poeterring guy here, or whatever the fuck his name is | 06:31 |
| Romster | Lennart Poettering | 06:32 |
| renovaatio | yeah | 06:33 |
| renovaatio | i'm boiling | 06:33 |
| renovaatio | ok | 06:33 |
| renovaatio | enough | 06:33 |
| renovaatio | must go to sleep | 06:33 |
| renovaatio | ttyl | 06:33 |
| Romster | okay g'night | 06:33 |
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| openfbtd | Some guy has forked my watchman right in the middle of a transition and a bugfix fest | 07:17 |
| openfbtd | So he has an extremely buggy fork now :D | 07:18 |
| Romster | neat | 07:23 |
| Romster | you should tell him to rebase it | 07:23 |
| openfbtd | In fact, the fork he has now just doesn't work | 07:23 |
| openfbtd | At all | 07:23 |
| openfbtd | Already done | 07:24 |
| openfbtd | SHould all watchman-related tools share a version number | 07:25 |
| openfbtd | Or even should they report it | 07:25 |
| Romster | upto you you. | 07:27 |
| Romster | thought --version usually works on all binaries/scripts | 07:27 |
| openfbtd | The thing is I will then have to change the version in four different places >_> | 07:29 |
| openfbtd | I could just make all the scripts call watchman and make it report the version though | 07:29 |
| Romster | yeah or when you package it use foo.in and then sed -e 's/@@VERSION@@/1.2.3/' foo.in foo | 07:30 |
| Romster | as part of a Makefile | 07:30 |
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| openfbtd | I don't have a makefile right now >_> | 07:31 |
| openfbtd | It's a bash script | 07:31 |
| Romster | or make it all call a common header file or some function for version. | 07:31 |
| openfbtd | Then again, I really do need to. | 07:31 |
| Romster | Makefiles are pretty easy to knock up. | 07:31 |
| openfbtd | Too lazy for now | 07:31 |
| openfbtd | Never dealt with em | 07:31 |
| Romster | seriously | 07:31 |
| Romster | think i got one as a example here. | 07:32 |
| openfbtd | I have the knowledge of the fact that makefiles are not complicated | 07:32 |
| openfbtd | But still, if I want to do it right, I need a configure script also | 07:33 |
| openfbtd | Which is also not a problem by itself | 07:33 |
| openfbtd | But meh, not now | 07:33 |
| Romster | lazy << | 07:34 |
| nrxtx | nah no configure, and no autotools stuff, just plain makefile | 07:34 |
| openfbtd | nrxtx, the script has a confdir | 07:34 |
| openfbtd | Even two | 07:34 |
| openfbtd | I want that to be configurable with a configure script | 07:34 |
| openfbtd | Because that's how nice unix tools behave | 07:35 |
| Romster | i said Makefile i never mentioned autohell | 07:35 |
| diverse | Do one thing, but do it right | 07:35 |
| nrxtx | have a look at the suckless projects they are doing it very nice without autotools stuff | 07:35 |
| openfbtd | I could do it like they do, hm. | 07:36 |
| nrxtx | just simple configurable makefiles | 07:36 |
| tilman | consider using a config.mk too | 07:37 |
| Romster | USR ?= /usr/local | 07:37 |
| Romster | make USR=/usr | 07:37 |
| Romster | if USR is unset uses /usr/local | 07:37 |
| Romster | ? on ?= means you can override the variable on command line. | 07:37 |
| Romster | and use install -d $(DESTDIR)$(USR) | 07:38 |
| Romster | etc. | 07:38 |
| openfbtd | Ahem. How do I escape the $ sign | 07:56 |
| openfbtd | \$HOME becomes \OME lol | 07:57 |
| Romster | \\\ | 07:58 |
| Romster | err \\ | 07:58 |
| openfbtd | Nope | 07:59 |
| openfbtd | -e "s%@CFGDIR_USER@%\\OME/.watchman%" | 07:59 |
| openfbtd | Ah | 07:59 |
| openfbtd | $$ works | 07:59 |
| Romster | oh yeah forgot that... | 08:00 |
| Romster | make is a little different. | 08:00 |
| openfbtd | So, the first stage works | 08:01 |
| openfbtd | Now to think how to structure the thing | 08:01 |
| cruxbot | [core.git/3.0]: lzo: update to 2.08 (security related on 32-bit systems) | 08:22 |
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| openfbtd | Heh | 08:49 |
| openfbtd | makefile with a config.mk | 08:49 |
| openfbtd | This was easier than I thought | 08:49 |
| openfbtd | https://github.com/fbt/watchman/tree/makefile suggestions? | 08:55 |
| tilman | ye, call it Makefile | 09:10 |
| openfbtd | That's the branch | 09:11 |
| openfbtd | And it doesn't exist anymore | 09:11 |
| openfbtd | It's been merged into master | 09:11 |
| openfbtd | The makefile is called Makefile | 09:11 |
| tilman | install -m755 tools/* $(DESTDIR)/$(USR)/bin/ | 09:21 |
| tilman | imo it's preferable to define a list of stuff to copy/use/we instead of using globs | 09:21 |
| openfbtd | In this case the glob is predictable | 09:22 |
| tilman | no it's not | 09:22 |
| openfbtd | But I do not disagree that's not optimal | 09:22 |
| Romster | told ya openfbtd | 09:23 |
| openfbtd | tilman, pushed | 09:24 |
| openfbtd | install -m755 tools/watchman-{respawn,service,runas} $(DESTDIR)/$(USR)/bin/ | 09:24 |
| openfbtd | Also this will make writing a crux poert for watchman easier :3 | 09:25 |
| openfbtd | port* | 09:25 |
| openfbtd | I'm still too lazy to set up CRUX 3.1 in a VM and fo that myself | 09:25 |
| openfbtd | do* | 09:25 |
| Romster | the best way is a variable of programs and do install -m 0755 -t $(DESTDIR)/$(USR)/bin/ tools/$(TOOLS) | 09:25 |
| openfbtd | hmm | 09:26 |
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| openfbtd | ah. | 09:26 |
| openfbtd | -t is handy | 09:26 |
| Romster | TOOLS="respawn service runas" | 09:26 |
| Romster | but that wont quite work the best way is a Makefile in each subdirectory wth a install: target | 09:26 |
| Romster | and the main Makefile SUBDIRS="tools" and in install: call the $SUBDIRS to install. | 09:27 |
| openfbtd | I kinda like having one makefile | 09:28 |
| Romster | been a while since i've done this tilman can help you there. | 09:28 |
| Romster | then it'll be just TOOLS="tools/respawn tools/service tools/runas" | 09:28 |
| Romster | install -m 0755 -t $(DESTDIR)/$(USR)/bin/ $(TOOLS) | 09:28 |
| tilman | while kill -0 "$job_id" 2>/dev/null; do sleep 1; done | 09:29 |
| Romster | is the proper way but you can cheat with globs * but globs can bite you when you least expect it. | 09:29 |
| tilman | does that need a timeout? | 09:29 |
| openfbtd | tilman, yes, otherwise it runs kill too quickly and is a noticeable cpu hog | 09:30 |
| Romster | that could go into a endless loop? | 09:30 |
| openfbtd | Romster, in a race condition, possibly | 09:30 |
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| openfbtd | If the pid dies and immediately is taken by something else | 09:31 |
| tilman | i was thinking if there's a situation in which the loop wouldn't terminate | 09:31 |
| openfbtd | Then respawn will still think the service is running | 09:31 |
| openfbtd | But pidfiles are a hack anyway | 09:31 |
| Romster | pgrep for the process pid(s) kill those if $PID is not empty? | 09:31 |
| openfbtd | kill -0 is much better than pgrep | 09:31 |
| Romster | ah k | 09:32 |
| openfbtd | Starting from the fact that kill is a builtin | 09:32 |
| Romster | stating | 09:32 |
| openfbtd | No I meant that as in “Let's start from this point” | 09:33 |
| openfbtd | And end there because builtins are nice and you should use them when possible :D | 09:33 |
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| Romster | agreed | 09:53 |
| openfbtd | https://github.com/fbt/watchman/blob/master/README.md added a big boys section on manual installation | 09:54 |
| openfbtd | So that a noob could use that to fuck up their system | 09:54 |
| openfbtd | :D | 09:54 |
| openfbtd | Not really though, it won't overwrite anything | 09:54 |
| openfbtd | btw this makes watchman easier to install on FreeBSD, mm! | 09:55 |
| openfbtd | That's a plus | 09:55 |
| Romster | hehe | 10:02 |
| Romster | yes | 10:02 |
| openfbtd | watchman by default uses /run/watchman for pidfiles and such | 10:03 |
| openfbtd | And freebsd doesn't have /run | 10:03 |
| openfbtd | That's literally the only incompatible thing | 10:03 |
| openfbtd | And now it's gone | 10:03 |
| Romster | easy enought o use /var/run/ | 10:03 |
| Romster | enough to* | 10:04 |
| openfbtd | It is a link to /run most of the time, yeah | 10:04 |
| openfbtd | But I prefer to pint to /run specifically | 10:05 |
| openfbtd | /var could be not present on boot, for example | 10:05 |
| openfbtd | /run too, but less likely | 10:05 |
| nrxtx | if you are going after latest systemd changes /etc will be dumped too and generated by systemmd on demand after booting :D | 10:08 |
| openfbtd | The reason watchman exists is because fuck systemd :D | 10:08 |
| nrxtx | what is watchman? | 10:08 |
| openfbtd | The thing I was writing a makefile for for the past hour :)9 | 10:09 |
| Romster | seriously they can't get rid of /etc was that a joke | 10:12 |
| openfbtd | Well | 10:12 |
| openfbtd | systemd is slowly eating everything into its own config files | 10:12 |
| openfbtd | Like you can already completely ditch /etc/fstab if you use systemd | 10:13 |
| Romster | so now it's its own registry like gconf and dconf in gnome... | 10:13 |
| openfbtd | It's not as convenient, but you still can do it | 10:13 |
| Romster | now i have seen everything -_- | 10:13 |
| Romster | bbs food | 10:14 |
| nrxtx | Romster: they want to create stateless systems, meaning different etc for different use cases just google for the announcment :D | 10:16 |
| openfbtd | So they want to intagrate puppet/chef/etcd into systemd basically | 10:19 |
| openfbtd | reimplement* | 10:19 |
| nrxtx | you have to ask this way: is there something they don't want to implement? | 10:20 |
| tilman | printer daemon | 10:21 |
| tilman | then again... now that cups is owned by apple maybe somebody should think about an alternative! ;) | 10:21 |
| nrxtx | don't ever think about telling them :D | 10:22 |
| openfbtd | Why did I not know about the ctraltdel utility | 10:24 |
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| Romster | what apple owns cups? | 11:11 |
| openfbtd | Apple owned CUPS for a long time now | 11:11 |
| openfbtd | have* | 11:11 |
| openfbtd | In March 2002, Apple Inc. adopted CUPS as the printing system for Mac OS X 10.2.[4] In February 2007, Apple Inc. hired chief developer Michael Sweet and purchased the CUPS source code | 11:12 |
| Romster | but it's still available for linux right | 11:12 |
| openfbtd | Yep | 11:12 |
| Romster | like we re using it now | 11:12 |
| Romster | so whats the big deal? | 11:12 |
| Romster | it's like saying apache owns um apache :D | 11:12 |
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| cruxbot | [xorg.git/3.0]: xorg-libpixman: updated to 0.32.6 | 13:54 |
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| openfbtd | Yay! It works on FreeBSD | 14:01 |
| openfbtd | You need gmake to build it though | 14:01 |
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| nwe | openfbtd: are you using watchman on crux? | 15:27 |
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| openfbtd | I have a WM that has an old version of watchman manually installed | 15:28 |
| openfbtd | With CRUX 3.0 | 15:28 |
| openfbtd | I'm being lazy about writing at least an initial port of it for CRUX | 15:28 |
| nwe | is it good? | 15:29 |
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| openfbtd | My opinion would be highly subjective | 15:30 |
| openfbtd | I'm the author. | 15:30 |
| openfbtd | But I personally like it | 15:30 |
| nwe | oh :) | 15:31 |
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| openfbtd | nwe, basically it's what I always wanted from a service manager. Simple, easy to use, easy to write scripts for | 15:38 |
| openfbtd | You can look at the scripts here: https://github.com/fbt/watchman-services | 15:38 |
| openfbtd | Well. It's not as simple as just plain old standalone initscripts | 15:39 |
| openfbtd | But those are a hell to mantain | 15:39 |
| cruxbot | [opt.git/3.0]: nvidia: updated to version 331.89 | 15:44 |
| cruxbot | [compat-32.git/3.0]: nvidia-32: updated to version 331.89 | 15:46 |
| Romster | openfbtd, can it be made non bash so it can work on say dash? | 15:46 |
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| Romster | i do like the directory approach where a Pkgfile can drop a service file in place. | 15:47 |
| openfbtd | Romster, you could for ik and strip all bashisms | 15:52 |
| openfbtd | I can't be bothered | 15:52 |
| openfbtd | fork it and* | 15:53 |
| openfbtd | One of the reasons I use bash is the ammount of useful builtins it has | 15:53 |
| openfbtd | With calls to external binaries all the time watchman would become slower and less portable. | 15:54 |
| openfbtd | I don't see any problems with treating bash as a dependency to watchman. | 15:54 |
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| openfbtd | Yep, dash doesn't even have kill as a builtin :3 | 15:56 |
| openfbtd | And those handy [[]] | 15:56 |
| diverse | so the question is, how minimal should one go? | 15:59 |
| openfbtd | As minimal as you want to while being comfortable with it? | 16:01 |
| openfbtd | Or as complex | 16:01 |
| openfbtd | It's your system | 16:01 |
| diverse | yeah | 16:02 |
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| openfbtd | .w 18 | 16:05 |
| openfbtd | oops | 16:05 |
| diverse | Romster: either dash with fewer features or bash with more features. :P | 16:05 |
| Romster | dash is considerably faster than bash, and closer without as many bashisms. | 16:08 |
| openfbtd | It's more like either bash and me being comfortable with the code or OH GOD NOTHING I'M USED TO WORKS | 16:09 |
| Romster | would prefer not shell at all tbh for init. | 16:15 |
| openfbtd | It's not init | 16:16 |
| openfbtd | It's a service manager | 16:16 |
| openfbtd | I use http://tools.suckless.org/sinit for my init | 16:16 |
| Romster | oh | 16:16 |
| openfbtd | And watchman is not a daemon | 16:17 |
| Romster | so you separated the two parts | 16:17 |
| openfbtd | They were never one | 16:17 |
| openfbtd | I had a bash init | 16:17 |
| Romster | so it's not a watchdog timer | 16:17 |
| openfbtd | But it was not a part of watchman | 16:17 |
| Romster | why dothat when sinit can do services | 16:17 |
| openfbtd | sinit can't do services. It forks exactly one thing. | 16:18 |
| openfbtd | And that thing is /bin/rc for me | 16:18 |
| openfbtd | Which then sets up the system and starts the services using watchman | 16:18 |
| openfbtd | And watchman _has_ a watchdog | 16:18 |
| Romster | instead of the crux rc.d/ | 16:18 |
| openfbtd | You can choose not to use it | 16:18 |
| Romster | so you basically redid rc.d with sinit and watchman | 16:19 |
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| Romster | fair enough. still better than systemd way | 16:19 |
| openfbtd | I redid rc.d with rc and watchman. init is irrelevant to the setup | 16:19 |
| openfbtd | You can use any init with this | 16:20 |
| openfbtd | Even systemd if you're that weird | 16:20 |
| Romster | ewww just eww | 16:20 |
| openfbtd | I would ask why | 16:20 |
| openfbtd | But hell, go ahead | 16:20 |
| openfbtd | One of my friends uses watchman _with_ systemd | 16:20 |
| Romster | oh right your still using svinit | 16:20 |
| openfbtd | Nope. | 16:21 |
| Romster | i thought sinit replaced sysvinit | 16:21 |
| openfbtd | sinit is not sysvinit at all. | 16:21 |
| openfbtd | sinit does replace your PID 1 | 16:21 |
| Romster | and sinit does /sbin/init | 16:21 |
| openfbtd | sinit does /bin/rc | 16:21 |
| openfbtd | Which is, in my case, a bash script :) | 16:21 |
| openfbtd | But it too just starts everything and dies | 16:22 |
| Romster | which then starts watchman | 16:22 |
| openfbtd | Which then uses watchman to start services, yes | 16:22 |
| Romster | so uh parallel services starting? dependency resolution with services? | 16:22 |
| openfbtd | watchman can do rudimentary dependencies | 16:23 |
| Romster | to start in correct order | 16:23 |
| openfbtd | i.e. “this service depends on these, let me start them first” | 16:23 |
| openfbtd | And my rc can start services in parallel | 16:23 |
| Romster | maybe even delay start stuff like crond while giving the login prompt already | 16:24 |
| openfbtd | Yep. | 16:24 |
| openfbtd | Exactly like the old arch rc used to work | 16:24 |
| openfbtd | But with dependencies and an optional service watchdog | 16:24 |
| Romster | though then startx you'd have to make sure dbus was running by that point at least. | 16:24 |
| Romster | you basic did a basic openrc | 16:25 |
| Romster | basicly* | 16:25 |
| openfbtd | Not even that basic | 16:25 |
| Romster | now make it work with lvm2 cryptosetup and mdadm and your cooking | 16:25 |
| openfbtd | That's just a matter of setting up the proper scripts. | 16:26 |
| openfbtd | In proper order and/or with proper deps | 16:26 |
| openfbtd | Just so you understand: | 16:27 |
| openfbtd | 1) init: sinit | 16:27 |
| openfbtd | 2) rc: https://github.com/fbt/spark-rc | 16:27 |
| openfbtd | 3) service manager: https://github.com/fbt/watchman | 16:28 |
| openfbtd | Three different projects | 16:28 |
| openfbtd | No relation whatsoever. | 16:28 |
| openfbtd | Except for the fact that I wrote the last two | 16:28 |
| Romster | ah | 16:30 |
| Romster | you just have to watch for race conditions | 16:32 |
| Romster | and test it when a FS is dirty and fsck is forced. | 16:32 |
| openfbtd | Only if I watch pids from pidfiles, yes | 16:32 |
| openfbtd | And I do >_> | 16:32 |
| Romster | can't get to pids in /proc? | 16:32 |
| openfbtd | I can, but I need to save the service or watchdog pids between watchman runs | 16:33 |
| openfbtd | When watchman spawns, it knows nothing about no one | 16:33 |
| openfbtd | It needs to know what to look for | 16:33 |
| openfbtd | It's not a daemon that can just sit there and know of the children it spawned because they its children. | 16:34 |
| openfbtd | It dies after executing whatever was asked of it | 16:34 |
| openfbtd | the are | 16:34 |
| openfbtd | I am bad at typing. they are its chldren* | 16:35 |
| openfbtd | I'm looking at cgroups, but not yet. | 16:35 |
| openfbtd | And there are not a lot of scenarios where a service dies and its pid is IMMEDIATELY taken | 16:36 |
| openfbtd | There could be that a service died quietly, a new process took its pid and is now sitting on it. So you try to restart the service and end up killing the new process instead | 16:37 |
| openfbtd | But the probability of that is not very high. | 16:37 |
| Romster | hrmm still exists though | 16:38 |
| openfbtd | Especially if you spawn most of your services under the provided watchdog | 16:38 |
| openfbtd | Which lowers that possibility to nearly zero | 16:38 |
| Romster | and slight chance even if it's 0.01% is still a chance. | 16:38 |
| openfbtd | Yeah, but the only solution is to always be up and knowing your children | 16:39 |
| openfbtd | And I don't want that | 16:39 |
| openfbtd | being* | 16:39 |
| Romster | k | 16:39 |
| openfbtd | And the default crux scripts are certainly not addressing that particular issue at all | 16:40 |
| openfbtd | Even runit the Internet seems to drool over lately is vulnerable to that | 16:40 |
| openfbtd | Not every service you can fork() and watch | 16:41 |
| openfbtd | Yeah, sure, it talks to its instancec via a fifo, but you can still lose a watchdog. The fifo can be deleted. The watchdog can die itself | 16:41 |
| openfbtd | I don't understand why people think that runit is the magic pill | 16:42 |
| openfbtd | If anything, systemd is | 16:44 |
| openfbtd | (seriously) | 16:44 |
| openfbtd | But it comes with so much negative stuff... | 16:45 |
| Romster | binary log files and everything else | 16:45 |
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| openfbtd | In any case, _every_ service in my systems is running under watchman-respawn. Which is a very simple script and has very little chances of falling on its head for some reason | 16:48 |
| openfbtd | (which is why UNIX way exists — the smaller the pieces, the smaller the attack surface) | 16:48 |
| openfbtd | And those run continiously. So the possibility of something taking over one of their pids is very small. | 16:49 |
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| Romster | yeah unlike systemd bug, wait for it an entire machine rooted in the matter of seconds a massive botnet of linux boxes. | 17:13 |
| Romster | all thanks to systemd | 17:13 |
| Romster | no more diversity everyone on systemd | 17:13 |
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| openfbtd | ok systemd now has a DHCP server | 18:30 |
| openfbtd | This is getting silly | 18:30 |
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| timcowchip | undefined reference to `yylex' trying to install tilda | 18:41 |
| openfbtd | I wonder when will they implement an sshd | 18:42 |
| openfbtd | I don't have any doubt they will | 18:42 |
| openfbtd | I wonder when. | 18:42 |
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| TLH | openfbtd: http://git.2f30.org/ubase/tree/respawn.c | 19:11 |
| TLH | a similar tool | 19:11 |
| openfbtd | I know other tools exist, yeah | 19:17 |
| openfbtd | And I knew about that one | 19:17 |
| openfbtd | But depending on ubase or any other respawner in a simple bash project... | 19:17 |
| openfbtd | I don't think so. | 19:17 |
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| openfbtd | Especially taking into account the fact that this is really easy to implement | 19:18 |
| openfbtd | on ubase or any other external projecy* | 19:19 |
| openfbtd | projecy* | 19:19 |
| openfbtd | WDKLFhwelkgfhwerjklogfhw;eio[gfrhweiovgftrh | 19:19 |
| openfbtd | project*! | 19:19 |
| openfbtd | TLH, but you know what. | 19:19 |
| openfbtd | You can use any respawner with watchman | 19:20 |
| openfbtd | Just do service_command='respawn'; service_args='command' | 19:20 |
| openfbtd | And I do have ubase installed | 19:21 |
| openfbtd | TIME FOR EXPERIMENTS | 19:21 |
| TLH | openfbtd: yeah initially I had a respawn script as well | 19:22 |
| TLH | because I use respawn from ubase in morpheus (to restart getty) I thought I'd just put in ubase rather than carry it along in my fs package | 19:23 |
| openfbtd | Well, that makes sense | 19:23 |
| TLH | the fifo option is to trigger it externally (think of monitoring sshd via nc or similar and doing a dummy echo) | 19:24 |
| openfbtd | YEah, I get it | 19:24 |
| openfbtd | runit's supervise does the same | 19:25 |
| TLH | a nice | 19:25 |
| openfbtd | TLH, respawn from ubase doesn't clean up | 19:26 |
| TLH | how u mean? | 19:26 |
| openfbtd | If it's killed with TERM, it just dies | 19:26 |
| openfbtd | Doesn't kill the service it's supervising | 19:26 |
| TLH | yeah | 19:26 |
| openfbtd | That's a different way to deal with it, but I don't like it | 19:27 |
| openfbtd | I like the fact that my watchdog kills the server if it's kileld | 19:27 |
| openfbtd | killed* | 19:27 |
| openfbtd | If you want it not to do that, you can -9 it | 19:27 |
| TLH | not sure what the proper thing to do here is but I can imagine people killing respawn to avoid respawning without necessarily disrupting the watched service. | 19:27 |
| TLH | sure | 19:28 |
| TLH | yeah | 19:28 |
| openfbtd | But ideally if I say STOP, I want you to stop. Everything. | 19:28 |
| openfbtd | And if I say DIE, you just die | 19:28 |
| openfbtd | Easy. | 19:28 |
| TLH | yeah it probably makes sense | 19:28 |
| openfbtd | I' | 19:28 |
| openfbtd | I'm not saying it's the only proper way | 19:28 |
| openfbtd | It's just that I want it to behave like that | 19:29 |
| TLH | no I see your reasoning, you can always send SIGKILL if you want to achieve what I mentioned earlier | 19:29 |
| TLH | on the other hand | 19:29 |
| openfbtd | It makes stopping services behind a supervisor really transparent in the context of watchman's older architecture. | 19:29 |
| TLH | for processes that are reparented there's nothing you can do (well there is but let's not go there right now) | 19:29 |
| TLH | so no killing the child for SIGTERM is consistent with the boundary cases | 19:30 |
| openfbtd | I could go full systemd and adopt cgroups | 19:30 |
| openfbtd | :D | 19:30 |
| openfbtd | If it's reparented, I treat that as a fringe case | 19:30 |
| TLH | s/no/not/ | 19:30 |
| openfbtd | And just deal with it manually | 19:30 |
| TLH | yeah | 19:30 |
| openfbtd | Never encountered that though | 19:30 |
| TLH | there's also prctl(2) but I don't want to go there. | 19:30 |
| TLH | with PR_SET_CHILD_SUBREAPER | 19:31 |
| openfbtd | If a service doesn't immediately fork into a daemon and escape, it reliably stays there | 19:31 |
| openfbtd | And most services have an option not to fork | 19:31 |
| TLH | yup | 19:31 |
| openfbtd | And if it does, there's almost always the option to write a pidfile and track it that way | 19:31 |
| TLH | yup | 19:32 |
| openfbtd | And if there's no such option, YOUR SERVICE SUCKS AND YOU SHOULD BE SHOT | 19:32 |
| openfbtd | I'm looking at you, cjdns. | 19:32 |
| openfbtd | mr. “I quietly fixed the no-daemonize option without telling anyone after saying I will remove the feature completely” | 19:32 |
| TLH | tha ad. | 19:35 |
| TLH | that's bad* | 19:35 |
| openfbtd | And it still doesn't work properly | 19:36 |
| openfbtd | If you SIGTERM the master process, it just dies | 19:36 |
| openfbtd | Doesn't kill its children | 19:36 |
| openfbtd | I SAID STOP DAMMIT | 19:36 |
| openfbtd | In the end I have this: https://github.com/fbt/watchman-services/blob/master/init.d/cjdroute | 19:37 |
| openfbtd | It finishes off the angel | 19:37 |
| openfbtd | That kills the whole thing | 19:37 |
| TLH | right I see | 19:53 |
| openfbtd | That's why I love the idea of initscripts still being scripts | 19:55 |
| openfbtd | Because then you can be real flexible with em | 19:55 |
| openfbtd | Even if the basic ones are just declarative configs | 19:55 |
| openfbtd | Especially if that | 19:55 |
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| TLH | openfbtd: http://git.suckless.org/ubase/commit/?id=ce59961f192a766349187fabfd332b97d2ae146d | 20:16 |
| openfbtd | :D | 20:18 |
| openfbtd | Cool. | 20:18 |
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| timcowchip | does someone have a link to the 3.1 ports? | 22:41 |
| timcowchip | the future ain't what it used to be | 22:48 |
| openfbtd | da future iz nao! | 22:49 |
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| teK__ | depends on the repo.. | 22:59 |
| teK__ | http://crux.nu/gitweb/?p=ports/core.git;a=shortlog;h=refs/heads/3.1 | 22:59 |
| teK__ | etc.. | 22:59 |
| timcowchip | thanks tek | 23:00 |
| teK__ | np | 23:01 |
| timcowchip | :) | 23:01 |
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| teK__ | off to bed^Wrepeat course work | 23:03 |
| q5sys | jaeger: Mind a PM? (regarding a matter I believe Frinnst has already spoken with you about) | 23:44 |
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