IRC Logs for #crux Sunday, 2015-09-20

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druid_droidshuld I place useradd skeleton dir in /usr/etc ?12:46
druid_droidsorry, I RTM and is /etc/skel/12:48
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myzticcan I search available packages online and see version of the packages?16:43
myztice.g. I want to know what version of emacs, vim, et cetera crux provides16:44
myzticah, clicking on M in port search is the easiest way :)16:45
myzticanyone using crux on desktop? why is it preferred choice for him/her? what are advantages/disadvantages compared to other distributions? (sorry, I am researching online of course, but I am looking into a lot of distributions these days to find the (for me) most interesting ones)16:51
myztichow is work going on a new release? will you be able to upgrade from 3.1 to it? is it completely source-based or are binaries available?16:53
onoderamyztic: yeah the portdb16:55
onoderathere also used to be a really cool website (http://portdb.zero-io.net/) that showed package info in an easy way but it seems to be down ;_;16:56
onoderaand I use crux on my sekstop and have been doiing so for around a year.16:56
onoderaI like it more than other distros mainly because creating new ports is super super easy.16:57
onoderaI can create a new port in about a minute (it it's a simple package).16:57
frinnstI run crux on my workstation at home and at work16:58
frinnstI just use a simple window manager - no full desktop16:58
druid_droidI'm only using crux, its being great to learn how to have a polish linux16:58
onoderamyztic: to answer your last two questions, it's possible to easily upgrade to a new relese, the installer has an installer and "update" option, there are some binaries available too, this website (http://crux.ster.zone/packages/3.1/) has binaries for some really big packages for example16:59
darthlukanI run CRUX because it doesn't punish me for not installing X piece of software and the only way X piece of software is getting on my system is if I explicitly install it16:59
darthlukanalso, package management is excellent: Anything I can whip up a package for in a matter of minutes is a good thing16:59
darthlukanand I like that I can read through all of the provided tools without much effort and understand them completely17:00
darthlukan<3 CRUX devs17:00
frinnst<3 you too17:00
myzticfrinnst, also using tiling window managers, currently stumpwm, want to try out dwm though17:00
myzticlove suckless tools <317:00
onoderaI'm using suckless init atm :)17:01
onoderamaybe gonna try out sbase/ubase.17:01
myzticis there anything major I have to look out for...17:02
myzticyou want be able to use programs that require x-important or something17:02
myztics/want/won't17:02
frinnstnew dependencies to ports available on the iso has been added post 3.117:03
darthlukandep handling is really simplistic, so expect to read the "Depends on" portion of a port before you go trying to install something big17:03
frinnstso depending on what you select during install, a simple "prt-get sysup" will fail on some things17:03
myzticoriginally I did not want to go with a source-based distro :/ but crux seems like a good distribution17:03
frinnstlibepoxy (for xorg) and start-stop-daemon are probably two ports you want to install manually17:03
darthlukanmyztic: I recently switched after several years on Arch and then Gentoo and others for years before that17:04
onoderaI haven't found any program that doesn't work, the biggest programs I use are blender and firefox though.17:04
frinnstalso gstreamer for firefox (html5 h264)17:04
myzticdarthlukan, have used both of them at some point, currently I run debian though17:04
myzticby the way: big plus for the community17:05
darthlukanwell, if you're familiar with makepkg and PKGBUILDS in Arch, then you'll understand the docs on the CRUX ports system pretty quickly17:05
myzticThere are distributions where afters days of asking certain things I could not get one discussion going and kind of was ignored (for whatever reason)17:05
myzticwon't name the channels, but this is quite a positive welcome ;)17:05
darthlukanthese other guys/gals have been using crux a lot longer than me, so they can better explain things and/or provide better tips on crux than I can17:07
darthlukanbut so far, I'm loving it, it feels like it's "mine" on my system17:07
myzticI kind of have some issues with it being completely source based17:08
darthlukanworried about compilation times?17:08
myzticamong other things17:08
darthlukanyour system may be vastly different from mine, but most packages build within a minute or two17:08
darthlukanmy kernel takes about 10 minutes or so17:08
myzticI have an older generation i5 and 8GB of ram, lenovo thinkpad t52017:09
darthlukanYou should be fine17:09
myzticBut I just remember on gentoo, that sometimes I need to something quickly and found out I didn't have program x or something17:09
myzticCompilation often was annoying and the benefit was ... well... one can question it's purpose, but of course that is subjective17:09
myzticI like that Crux doesn't use sytemd or any of that sh..17:10
myztics/sytemd/systemd17:11
darthlukandepending on what kind of program it is and whether or not the deps are readily available, your mileage may vary so far as the time it takes to get it installed17:11
darthlukanbut for me, the time consumer isn't compilation, it's making sure that I have all of the ports necessary prepared17:12
darthlukanas in, if deps aren't readily available in another port repo17:12
darthlukanbut that's very user specific IMO17:12
myzticwhat does "collection" refer to in crux portdb search?17:13
myzticrepository? can anyone just have a repository?17:13
onoderayou can choose which repos to sync17:13
myzticisn't that somewhat of a stability issue?17:13
onoderathe default onces are opt core and xorg I think17:13
darthlukanyeah, and then you can enable contrib and compat-3217:14
onoderatheres also a "contrib" repo, dozens of personal user repos, repos specific for kde & other DEs, etc.17:14
myzticty for all the info you have provided me with :)17:14
onoderathis way you don't have to sync 1000s of ports, for example freebsd just pulls in all ports, which takes a while and takes up space17:14
myzticIf it makes the cut I will try it out on a virtual machine :)17:15
darthlukanmyztic: Yeah, I made my own repo within a few days of installing CRUX, and then sent the request for it to be added to the portdb17:15
darthlukanI'm not sure what the internal review process is for that, but it was approved17:15
darthlukanif other port maintainers are anything like me, they are keeping up with the ports in their repo and checking the program's main repo for changelogs every couple of days17:16
myzticdarthlukan, well, once your repo is approved, they can't review every new package17:16
onoderahowever getting added to the portd only makes it easily searchable17:17
onoderayou can also add repos that are not in the portdb.17:17
darthlukanmyztic: right, but that's up to the repo maintainer (so far as I know)17:18
darthlukanalso, what onodera said :)17:19
darthlukanmyztic: for reference on compilation times, on my i7, 16GB RAM, SSD: 7 minutes for libtiff and gtk3 compilation/update17:32
darthlukannot bad for an entire GUI toolkit17:32
myztic;)17:33
korithat go package someone posted yesterday works, by the way17:34
korioh it was tsaop17:34
korimaintaining large repos is weird17:35
korigranted, onodera does most of the work now17:35
darthlukanI'm very slowly going through another user's port repo to see which ones I can feasibly take over maintaining, since they mentioned that they won't be able to for a while17:35
darthlukanhave to make sure I don't put myself in the same position as them :)17:36
koridarthlukan: it usually helps to have multiple people overlooking one repo17:36
darthlukankori: yeah, but I don't expect a ton of people to maintain my repo for me17:37
korioh yeah, our repo isn't listed on portdb17:37
korido you know about it?17:37
korihttps://github.com/6c37/crux-ports + https://github.com/6c37/crux-ports-git17:37
darthlukannope17:37
darthlukanwell, now I do :)17:38
darthlukanoh wow! You have a few packages that I have in my repo17:38
darthlukanI probably should have done a better github search17:38
darthlukanhttps://github.com/darthlukan/ports-repo that's the git, the actual address is ports.brianctomlinson.com17:39
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myzticdarthlukan, above you said crux feels like it's yours, how so compared to arch / gentoo? (they both should feel like that too?)17:47
korimyztic: I've made this comparison before17:47
koribut it's probably not appropriate anymore17:47
koriif distros were fast-food chains, CRUX would be subway17:48
darthlukanI haven't used Gentoo in over a decade, but so far as Arch is concerned, CRUX isn't making assumptions for me17:48
darthlukanI haven't had a piece of software shoved down my throat and then been told to GTFO if I don't like it17:48
darthlukanthe "easy" example is systemd, I'm not being punished by the package manager or the packages for not installing it17:49
druid_droidmy ports where not approved I think, or takes time ?17:49
darthlukannot trying to pick on systemd, it's just a really easy example to use because everyone knows about it and the many packages that now depend on it17:49
koriCRUX is pretty much lfs with a package manager and a couple more utils17:50
koriand that's how you should treat it17:50
darthlukanand the package manager is minimalistic17:50
darthlukanwhat kori said17:50
darthlukanthere isn't any voodoo going on (so far as I can see) with regard to the included tools17:50
darthlukanI made a full pot of coffee when I sat down to read the CRUX tools sources, fully expecting to be there all day and night trying to understand what was happening.  Imagine my surprise when I was done reading before coffee cup number 217:51
koriI went into CRUX expecting a couple things and I got exactly what I expected17:52
korino surprises :<17:52
korithis was a year ago now, I believe17:52
darthlukanso because I understand the tools, and I am in more control of dependencies, I feel like the system is more "mine" and less "what the crux devs decided I should have"17:52
kori10 months ago now, yeah17:52
korineat17:53
darthlukanunless what they decided I should have is a totally transparent system that I control, then of course, that works in my favor :P17:53
darthlukanthat's what I meant by that17:53
darthlukanGentoo (from what I've read, again, it's been a decade since I used it) seems to make some assumptions for me17:54
darthlukanArch definitely does (now, it didn't used to)17:54
koriafaik arch during its first years was pretty much crux++17:54
darthlukanso, yeah, basically, what kori said regarding "think of it like LFS with a package manager and some additional tools"17:54
koriwhere pacman replaced prt-get and pkgutils17:54
koriI've my annoyances with CRUX17:55
darthlukankori: yeah, I wish I would have stumbled upon crux after I was done with Gentoo, I most likely never would have taken a second look at arch17:55
jaegerI came from gentoo to crux as well... over a decade ago, heh17:56
darthlukanall of that said, Arch is a great distro, but it's just not for me any more17:56
koridarthlukan: I took a serious look at CRUX after having a really pleasant experience with ports on FreeBSD17:56
koriand I ended up having a more pleasant experience on CRUX :)17:56
koriafter a couple months of port maintaining, though, I must say, something has changed17:56
darthlukanThere are some things that I'd like to have, but it's not for the CRUX devs to shove at me, so I'm building my own things17:56
darthlukanand honestly, the things I want (now) have nothing to do with the system provided, but rather, work stuff that I would need to build anyways17:57
darthlukanlike, project generation17:57
myzticty :))17:58
myzticawesome info / insight17:58
darthlukanI forget who said it earlier, but creating a port for a piece of software within minutes is a massive perk to me17:59
darthlukanas well*17:59
darthlukankori: what changed?17:59
onoderajaeger: I used gentoo as well before crux18:01
onoderaonly for around a month though18:01
onoderaI think it;s a good distro to learn about the basics of compilation18:01
koridarthlukan: I'm more interested in abstracting all the things I'm already going to type anyway now18:03
koriturning anything that can be turned into a knob18:03
darthlukan"generic-ifying"?18:03
koriaye18:03
darthlukanthat's always an interesting problem to solve (something I do at work a lot)18:04
korihttps://github.com/kori/surt/blob/master/examples/recipes/musl is what I have in mind18:04
koriI picked toml because it's easy to parse18:04
darthlukaninteresting18:04
koriI'm still working on it18:05
korias I'm a very new programmer18:05
koriit's getting *some* progress18:05
darthlukanooooooohhhhhh it's a Go project18:06
koriain't like there's anything to fork yet18:06
korihaha18:06
darthlukanthat's the best time to fork!18:06
darthlukanyou're more likely to get to contribute18:06
darthlukanideas + code*18:06
korihttps://github.com/kori/surt/issues/118:07
korifeel free to join our channel :)18:08
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darthlukanthanks!18:11
z3brayo18:21
korihey18:21
darthlukanhello18:23
z3bracan surt build packages yet?18:24
koriworking on that!18:24
koriI hit a snag18:24
z3brawhich is?18:25
koritarballing a dir :<18:25
z3bracd dir && tar cz dir :P18:26
z3bra(shell based package manager ftw)18:26
korinot all platforms have tar!18:26
z3brawhich one doesn't have it?18:26
kori┐('~'; )┌18:26
z3bra(windows doesn't count)18:26
koriI'm just going with that assumption18:26
z3branot all platforms have go either..18:27
koribesides, there are go packages for tar and gzip18:27
z3brathey'll probably have tar more often than go :P18:27
darthlukanif they've got Go, they probably have tar18:27
z3brayup18:27
darthlukanin which case, just use the tar they have on the system with syscall18:27
z3braalso18:27
korialso, surt's meant to be the first thing you put into a system to install a distro18:27
darthlukanthe syscall module18:27
z3brahow do you plan on "unpacking" source archives without tar?18:28
koriso even if the platform does have tar, it might not have the binary18:28
koriz3bra: again, with go18:28
korihttps://golang.org/pkg/archive/tar/18:28
darthlukankori: in that case, take a look at the compression or zip package18:28
koriit should go, uhhh18:29
koricreate a chroot with the needed dirs, install /bin/surt, surt sync, surt install filesystem... etc.18:29
korisince go is statically linked, there shouldn't be any problem18:30
darthlukankori: it looks like the tar package for Go does not in fact call the tar binary on the system, but rather, tries to implement what tar and bsdtar do internally18:31
darthlukanso using the go tar package is safe18:31
darthlukanhttps://golang.org/src/archive/tar/writer.go18:31
darthlukanI don't see anything in there calling to the installed tar version18:32
koridarthlukan: exactly18:32
kori:)18:32
z3brakori, wouldn't it be easier to be able to 'bootstrap' a system in the chroot directly?18:32
z3bralike18:33
z3braROOTFS=/mnt/distro surt install filesystem ...18:33
z3bra?18:33
korithat's pretty much it, though18:33
koriwait, why are we talking about this here?18:33
z3bratrue18:34
z3braI'm guilty18:36
z3brano shame though18:36
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z3braso where?18:48
kori#6c3718:50
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myzticwould you say crux is the most bsd-like linux distribution?19:49
myzticthe package management reminds me of freebsd19:49
onoderait probably is19:56
onoderasabotage also used ports and is super super minimal19:57
onoderabut I doesn't use pure sh pkgfiles19:58
joacimstumbled upon one that used pkgsrc a few years ago20:02
joacimit didnt seem like it was maintained tho20:02
joacimlooked like something a guy did by himself.20:03
myzticSo I considered Alpine Linux, Arch Linux, Debian Testing, Debian Stable, Void Linux, FreeBSD, Slackware, NixOS, Exherbo, GoboLinux, Nutyx, Haiku, Crux, Kolibri, Slitaz, LunarLinux and QubesOS20:15
myzticFinal 6: Alpine Linux, Arch Linux, Debian Stable, Void Linux, NixOS, Crux20:15
myzticFinal 3: Crux, Void, Alpine Linux20:15
myztic:D20:15
onoderaalpine is nice but I don't like all the "securty stuff" it has going on, 2 hard 4 me, lol20:29
onoderavoid is nice too but the package files are way more complicated than the crux ones20:29
torisoonodera, I just looked at sabotage, it looks more complicated than alpine lol20:35
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myzticonodera, I like the "security stuff" ;)22:58
myzticactually a pro-argument for me22:58
druid_droidis possible to configure exim to fetch remote mail to local ?23:01
druid_droidfetchmail :)23:14
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