IRC Logs for #crux Friday, 2016-12-02

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brian|lfsQuestion what happened to nvidia-32 on crux 3.3 it was 375 the other day now its 36702:28
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donatoMorning06:03
nwemorning06:26
Anselmoevening. . .06:27
donatoIs it always so quiet around here?06:29
Anselmono. . . . . . .06:30
nweit´s early morning..06:30
donatoAlready been up for nearly 3 hours, so it's not that early anymore06:31
nweouch.. :P06:31
nweI can almost keep my eye open :)06:32
Anselmoits almost bed time here. . . . .06:32
donatoWhat timezone are you guys in?06:32
nweGMT +1 (live in sweden).06:32
Anselmoits 23:33 here . .06:33
donatonwe: Same timezone as me then, what are you doing up so early? :p06:34
nwedonato: =) on my way to work.06:36
donatoDoes one of you two know Go really well?06:39
Anselmoumm, hardly at all06:41
Anselmo:P06:41
nweno sorry :/06:41
nwedonato: what are you doing?:)06:42
donatoSitting at work since 7 and reading a bit on Go and C so I can decide what to learn next06:42
Anselmohmm interesting06:43
donatoAnselmo: You don't program daily by any chance? Or what about you nwe ?06:50
nwedonato: scripting bash and some perl06:51
Anselmowell, I write small programs very frequently ,06:51
Anselmolittle lisp math things recently, mostly06:52
donatoDo you use vim for that or another editor?06:52
nwevim06:52
donatoAny tips on starting with it? Been using sublime for the last few years and wanted to give vim a shot.06:52
Anselmovim usually06:52
donatoHave been using it just for small file editing recently06:52
Anselmowell, there is the vim tutor06:53
nwemy tips it use starting it :) and feel if you like it or not.06:53
tilmanyes, vimtutor06:55
donatoGoing to give the vimtutor a shot now, thanks06:57
ryu0donato: and what are you coming from?06:58
donatoSublime06:58
ryu0No, i mean languages.06:59
donatoHave been using it as a JS environment for the last years06:59
donatoRecently started doing a bit of Go and now trying to find projects06:59
donatoStarted with PHP06:59
tilmanthe shock from going from js to c will probably cause a mental health crisis06:59
ryu0PHP...07:00
ryu0ACTION cringes.07:00
donatoLuckily didn't write any PHP in the last few years07:01
ryu0donato: which to pick i would say depends on what you're looking for.07:02
ryu0C is quite powerful in the hands of a master, but quite disasterous in the hands of a novice.07:02
donatoI have been writing APIs in JS for the last few years so it would be nice to improve the speed of those with Go but it would also be nice to get a better understanding to understand the programs that I run daily on my pc07:02
ryu0so, you were using node.js?07:03
ryu0or?07:03
donatoYes, have been forced to haha07:04
ryu0donato: so why Go or C though?07:05
ryu0Go... seems to be the rising star of young languages.07:05
donatoI like writing APIs but I'm a little bit disappointed with the performance of NodeJS so I was looking for something to rewrite them and Go seemed perfect for it07:06
tilmanwhen say "API" you mean web-api, right?07:06
donatoRight07:06
tilmanplease stop doing that07:06
donatoWhat's the better term for it then?07:07
tilmaneverytime i open r/programming and see a title like "10 tips for better APIs" i'm about to get disappointed :p07:07
donatoHaha07:07
tilmanjust put "web" in there somewhere07:07
donatoSo I was searching something to make the web-api's more performant :p07:07
ryu0donato: i suppose Go is easier to grasp, but is quite lacking feature wise.07:07
ryu0donato: another option might be D and the web framework vibe.07:08
donatoAnd I became interested in C because I was getting frustrated with i3 and wanted to make a few changes to it07:08
ryu0oh, dear. C is another can of worms.07:08
ryu0i've used C for 8 years. it perfectly fits in with what i've largely done: local software.07:09
donatoSo yeah, now I don't know if I should try to learn both at once or just focus on one first07:09
donatoIn C I really just want to write some programs I can use daily on my own machine but that's it07:09
ryu0do you want to know what C's best attributes are?07:10
ryu0i assume you only know some of them.07:10
donatoSure07:10
ryu01) machine resource efficient. RAM, CPU, etc.07:11
ryu0^ but this depends on what you're doing. you can easily waste RAM if you're careless.07:11
donatoWas about to ask, I have to manage that myself, right?07:11
ryu0Yes, manual memory management. C++ is the same way in this regard.07:11
ryu0garbage collectors are available for C, but as always, gotta manage them with care.07:12
ryu02) universal language of sorts (ideal way to have library reusable by multiple native languages)07:13
ryu0library code*07:13
ryu0not to mention, many native languages can have code that is really implemented as C code.07:14
tilman3) you can get a compiler for *any* target platform =)07:14
ryu0^ *assuming you know your C well enough to write "portable code" =p *07:14
tilmandonato: consider adding rust to that list of languages to look at07:15
donatoAnd what do you guys think, concentrate on one language or do 2/3 at a time?07:15
ryu0one.07:15
ryu02 or 3 won't really get you anywhere.07:15
ryu0though, i have to wonder. how many auxiliary languages have you learned?07:16
ryu0SQL to name one.07:16
ryu0that's useful to any language that has to interact with a RDBMS.07:16
donatoKnow a tiny bit of SQL, mostly worked with Mongo or Couchbase07:17
tilmangngngnagnarnggngngngggg07:17
donatoOther than that I know the webdev-stuff07:17
ryu0lmao.07:17
donatoLast time I used SQL was with PHP and that was 5 or 6 years ago07:18
donatoSo yeah, when it comes to new languages I really have to start from 007:18
tilmanwhat about python?07:19
donatoNever used it07:19
tilmanlearn python07:20
ryu0python can get a pass, but it's a popular jack-of-all-trades language.07:20
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donatoShould I still learn it, even if I'm probably going to not use it that often after learning C/Go/...07:23
ryu0donato: there's always some need for scripts to do tasks. i usually just write shell scripts...07:24
tilmanpython has a nice spot in between shell scripts and "real" programs (written in "real" languages, ie c/c++) ;D07:25
ryu0and some people swear by languages like ocaml.07:26
donatoSo the roadmap for the next few weeks is first the basics of python, after that probably C07:27
tilmanthat's where compiler availability for any target comes into play ryu007:27
ryu0tilman: because ocaml is entirely implemented in C?07:27
tilmanryu0: falling in love with haskell and then realizing it's a bad fit for that sweet microcontroller can be disappointing :D07:27
ryu0well, except part of it.07:28
ryu0just it's bootstrapped by C...07:28
ryu0tilman: i could see it working if it can run a whole OS :P07:28
ryu0tilman: raspberry pi :P07:28
tilmanyeah, i'm not actually talking about ocaml but took some liberties ;p07:28
tilmanryu0: micro_controller_, not micro_processor_07:29
ryu0ok. rofl.07:29
tilmananyway07:29
ryu0donato: https://assets.toggl.com/images/toggl-how-to-save-the-princess-in-8-programming-languages.jpg07:33
donatoHaha, C really does seem like the best of the languages07:37
tilmanhaha, jon skeet :D07:37
donatoLISP seems kind of strange07:37
ryu0(print "How so?")07:37
tilmanLOOOL the final one07:37
tilmanhahaha07:37
ryu0LISP, the language with a thousand and one implementations.07:38
tilmanoff to rescueing some princesses at work07:38
ryu0donato: how familiar are you with functional?07:39
ryu0donato: honestly, a functional language can open your eyes to a lot of possibilities that aren't very obvious in a primarily imperative language.07:42
donatoAs familiar as I can be coming from JavaScript07:42
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ryu0i first tried to learn that with Lisp and found out i hated it, but it was Lisp not functional.07:43
ryu0i'm looking to the ML family now, of which only 2 or 3 dialects really remain.07:44
ryu0ocaml, sml, and F#.07:44
Tazyhow can i rename a package before pkgmk starts to unpack it?07:45
donatoryu0: Does functional programming really make that much of a change? Especially for private projects07:46
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ryu0donato: yes. the paradigm is inverse of many things from imperative.07:49
ryu0donato: first, recursion is the primary means of repetition, rather than iteration.07:49
ryu0donato: second, most of the time data is immutable and expressions lack side effects.07:50
ryu0donato: those are 2 major differences.07:50
donatoryu0: And what have you been doing with it? It definitely sounds interesting and like a benefit07:51
ryu0donato: not much yet. i've been too busy with mandatory studies.07:51
ryu0donato: https://gist.github.com/ryu0/4dec909ad717139474623ddc4e1ee6e807:52
ryu0err07:52
ryu0wrong file.07:52
ryu0donato: https://gist.github.com/ryu0/3af5ad8ec7234152469c65ce329a639c07:52
ryu0this is standard ML (SML).07:53
ryu0notice the lack of explicit types.07:53
ryu0SML is static typed, but most type annotations are redundant as type inferrence will usually provide the right information.07:53
donatoIt definitely looks interesting. What are the main differences between repeat1 and repeat2?07:55
donatorepeat1 I can wrap my head around07:56
ryu0donato: performance.07:59
ryu0donato: repeat1 is inefficient due to excessive copying.07:59
ryu0donato: the 2nd is basically describing how to build the new string array in one allocation.07:59
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donatoryu0: Do you have other SML code I could look into? What is the language mainly used for?08:01
ryu0donato: i'd suggest ocaml over SML realistically. ocaml is much larger by comparison, community and otherwise.08:01
ryu0it shares a lot of the same features, just differing syntax, and it has much more than SML does these days.08:02
ryu0ocaml has continued to evolve while SML is largely the same as it was in 1998, feature wise.08:02
ryu0but, SML was originally made for theorem proving software.08:03
ryu0donato: https://realworldocaml.org/ they provide the full book online via HTML pages, or you can buy it.08:03
ryu0it includes OO, imperative, and functional constructs.08:04
ryu0but it is primarily functional.08:04
donatoAnd what is it mainly used for?08:04
donatoThink I saw it mentioned today in some news article about a network application08:05
ryu0that, i'm not entirely sure. i'd have to research it. it seems to be everywhere.08:05
ryu0i see it used to implement languages, among other things.08:05
ryu0it also has at least one web framework, oscigen.08:05
ryu0and a pretty rich set of software for editting. the extension for visual studio code uses general programs, and i get code completion and the type information for any expression i hover my mouse over.08:06
ryu0kinda nice since type inference is highly used.08:07
donatoWill definitely save the book and have a look at it as soon as I'm home08:07
ryu0you can know what type the expression or "value" has.08:07
ryu0i find it nice, coming from C where all types must be explicitly declared.08:08
donatoSo many new things to learn/choose from. Don't even know where to start haha08:09
ryu0donato: note that while static typed imperative languages like C++ have type inference too, it's usually limited to local variables. type inference in static typed functional languages seems to be applied in far more places (like functions)08:09
donatoThe syntax looks like it's going to take a bit to get used to it08:12
ryu0donato: not compared to Lisp. the ()s make it hard to tell where stuff begins and ends.08:12
ryu0donato: then again i've worked with a lot of different languages so far.08:15
donatoWhich languages did you work with until now?08:16
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ryu0donato: i still use C heavily. i've just dabbled in others but haven't stuck with any so far.08:19
ryu0donato: it's a very useful language in what i do.08:19
donatoIf I want to write little programs for my window manager (currently using openbox), should I start learning C directly or just do it with Python and learn that?08:20
donatoI don't know how difficult writing programs for a wm is in C08:20
ryu0using C, at least for part of it, may be mandatory. many X11 APIs are only fully accessible from C.08:20
ryu0iirc, even the XCB bindings are lacking.08:21
ryu0like, don't have XFT last i checked.08:21
ryu0but then i suppose you could use cairo/pango with XCB if you wanted advanced graphics options.08:22
Tazyis there a syntax to rename a file in Pkgfile without having to $name the whole thing like a hash string? (cause downloaded file is hash.tar.gz08:22
donatoryu0: I basically just want to control the window behavior (setting them in different layouts) or moving them around on my desktop so that I can order them08:23
ryu0Oh, i thought you meant writing a whole one.08:23
ryu0that's entirely dependent on which WM you use.08:23
ryu0have fun looking. i used to love that but not anymore.08:23
donatoBut writing a wm was on my todo list too, but that's a future project that's still some time away08:25
frinnstwohoo, amiga 4000 boots again08:25
frinnstrmull: yeah, just a sec08:25
donatoryu0: Do you have any private projects that you're currently working on?08:27
donatoI'm really interested to see some projects if possible08:27
ryu0donato: private? not really. i'll show you something i had time for earlier.08:28
ryu0donato: https://github.com/ryu0/dumpvar08:28
Tazyso theres no way to rename a downloaded file before pkgmk calls build () ?08:30
ryu0Tazy: afaik, crux doesn't have such a mechanism of renaming upstream source files.08:31
ryu0it might, but i don't know for sure.08:31
donatoryu0: The syntax doesn't look too complicated08:32
ryu0donato: that's C.08:33
orbearyu0: that sounds like a bug and will break so many packages if it does not exist08:33
Tazythought i can do it in build () but it turns out it fails extracting it anyways. http://sprunge.us/RMZA08:33
ryu0donato: https://blog.pusher.com/golangs-real-time-gc-in-theory-and-practice/ huh08:34
ryu0someone just posted it in #d.08:34
orbeai guess you could host the source yourself and rename it manually, but that is silly08:34
orbeagranted, I dont know crux, just package management with slackare.08:34
orbea*slackware08:35
donatoryu0: Oh that is the article where I saw OCaml08:35
frinnstrmull: https://planet-express.se/amiga/08:35
donatoryu0: Think I'm going to start with looking into C this afternoon. Is the "The C Programming Language" book good?08:39
ryu0donato: 2nd edition from 1989/1990?08:39
Tazyyou think crux would have a manual entry for Pkgfile..08:39
donatoLet me check which one I have at home08:39
donatoryu0: Second edition from 200008:40
ryu0donato: that's not the same i was thinking of. the ANSI C book was written by the architects of C. the newer standards add some new toys, but they're not entirely useful in practice.08:40
ryu0in theory they would be, but gcc and clang don't fully support C11 in one way or another.08:41
donatoryu0: I have the ANSI one at home because I got it a few years ago. But never knew if it was a good place to start08:42
ryu0it's only real problem is it hasn't kept up with some changes to C. it's just a solid foundation these days.08:42
ryu0C doesn't teach you everything you need to learn about your environment to be successful with it.08:42
donatoAny tips on learning C before I start reading the book this weekend?08:45
ryu0donato: not in particular, just read through it all. i learned the majority of it by doing.08:46
ryu0donato: a lot of the gotchas won't make sense until you have an overview of the language, imho.08:46
donatoDo you remember what your first projects in C were? Or did you just start learning without a goal in mind?08:47
ryu0random shit. i mainly threw together functions to solve algorithm problems that i found interesting at first.08:48
ryu0like "integer to string".08:49
donatoI'm curious how fast I can write the first good program.08:52
donatoBut do you program daily for work / study or how did you learn everything?08:52
ryu0donato: 1) i would, i wasn't loaded with so much mandatory studies. 2) lots of reading, and "growing pains".08:54
ryu0donato: expect your programs to implode while learning C. it's one of the harder languages to grasp.08:55
Tazypkgmk seems really inconvient, http://sprunge.us/YGAE are there any other functions than build () ? (tried prepare () )08:55
donatoryu0: I'm already prepared for that. But it definitely does seem worth learning08:55
ryu0donato: it's just a royal hassle to write anything of real complexity.08:56
ryu0you have to be very good at learning how to partition code well, imho.08:56
ryu0Pascal, a language from the same era as C, has features C has never had. in particular, proper source code modules.08:58
ryu0donato: free pascal is an option as well, but it is somewhat lackluster in the third party tools department.08:59
ryu0but there's some nice software out there for it...08:59
ryu0like multiple web frameworks or so.09:00
ryu0it's comparable to C++ somewhat.09:00
donatoSo many languages I've never heard of before today haha09:00
ryu0i learned a bit from reading through it.09:00
ryu0like function calling conventions.09:00
donatoIs there some kind of overview of the most common languages, their use cases and their benefits?09:01
ryu0not really, but it's usually obvious for common ones.09:01
ryu0PHP is mainly web, JS was originally client-side browser scripting.09:01
ryu0web backend.09:01
ryu0etc.09:01
ryu0http://www.tiobe.com/tiobe-index/ <-- this isn't really objective, but it gives a good idea of how common languages are.09:03
donatoSeems like Go did gain a lot of popularity in the last year and people lost interest in C09:04
ryu0afaik, this doesn't measure learning trends. i think it's based on software that exists written in the language.09:05
ryu0it could be explain by a surge in the software written in Go.09:05
ryu0remember, this isn't raw numbers, but %s.09:05
ryu0a huge increase elsewhere could make C look like it's in decline.09:06
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ryu0when it could have remained flat.09:06
ryu0just that as a proportion of the whole, it's less.09:06
donatoTrue09:06
ryu0donato: how old are you anyway?09:08
donato24, and you?09:08
ryu030.09:08
donatoAnd when did you start with programming/linux?09:09
ryu02008, though i've done some of this stuff since i was 8.09:09
ryu0back when irc was all we really had for online stuff. =p09:09
ryu0there was no F2P or such MMOs.09:09
ryu0lol09:09
donatoWasn't there Ultima? :p09:10
ryu0lol09:10
ryu0https://marketplace.visualstudio.com/items?itemName=hackwaly.ocaml09:10
ryu0donato: ^ see what the ocaml extension can do O_o09:10
ryu0anyway.09:12
donatoI'm definitely going to check OCaml for Sublime out09:12
donatoDo you have such plugins for vim too?09:12
ryu0i believe so, the software it's built on top of isn't tied to a particular editor.09:12
ryu0donato: also, at some point you will want to learn about a particular topic, "system analysis and design".09:13
ryu0a vital skill in building software systems.09:14
ryu0(and hence information systems)09:14
donatoBookmarked the topics/wiki pages of the topics09:15
donatoI'm going to read everything before I start with the C book09:15
donatoThink it's smart to learn about it beforehand09:15
donatoOk, I have to write a little bit JS now again.. :/09:25
ryu0donato: why do you hate javascript?09:26
ryu0https://www.destroyallsoftware.com/talks/wat09:27
donatoryu0: I don't hate it, but the last few weeks have been 12 hours a day non-stop work so I just can't really see it anymore09:27
ryu0yeouch.09:28
donatoSo yeah, I'm happy that I get a bit of change with C today/this weekend09:30
ryu0donato: do you know the difference between dynamic and static typing?09:33
donatoIsn't it if the type of variable is known at compile time with one and not with the other?09:33
ryu0perhaps, but i was looking for when types are actually checked.09:34
ryu0donato: have you noticed how JS is a popular target for compilers now?09:35
donatoI noticed that some of my colleagues suddenly came with CoffeeScript but didn't think anything about it09:37
ryu0that's one.09:37
ryu0TypeScript is another.09:37
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donatoLast I heard was that CoffeeScript is dying09:40
ryu0on whose authority?09:40
ryu0if it's still maintained, it seems silly to say that.09:41
donatoI never used it myself but ES6 added a lot of functionality to the language that were previously found in CoffeeScript09:44
donatoSince then less and less people here in the company are using/talking about it because they can do the same now with ES609:45
donatoTypescript on the other hand, I've never worked with and I don't know anyone that has. That would be an interesting thing to look at09:51
donatoWe're currently using ES6 with Babel and the code runs through a lint and I'm quite happy with how it is09:54
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frinnststupid german amiga wikis. why not write in english so everyone can read them?19:37
teK_what are you interested in19:40
teK_:)19:40
frinnsthttps://planet-express.se/amiga/IMG_20161202_191758.jpg19:42
frinnstbut managed to find the info i was looking for19:42
frinnstyou guys do do some good: http://www.amigawiki.org/dnl/schematics/A4000_Rb.pdf19:42
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frinnsthttps://planet-express.se/amiga/IMG_20161202_210009.jpg20:15
frinnstglorious20:15
frinnsthttps://planet-express.se/amiga/IMG_20161202_211234.jpg20:15
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teK_emacs is dead20:44
teK_they do preloading/dumping of LSIP code so it will startup quicker20:44
teK_but this hinders ALSR from working so it needs to be disabled20:45
teK_^_^20:45
teK_btw I do not know if this is true for emacs in general or just in some corner cases20:45
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dbrookefrinnst: the guy who came to replace my electricity meter today spotted my electronics workbench and said he used to repair Commodore stuff21:44
dbrookeI have several VIC-20, a couple of C64 and a 3032 with dual floppy out in the garage21:45
dbrookeand as for German - https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gG62zay3kck21:46
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frinnsti never played with the pre-amiga stuff22:30
frinnsta500 was my first computer22:31
dbrookeby that sort of time I think I probably had a PC/AT clone22:37
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