IRC Logs for #crux Saturday, 2016-12-03

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pedjaso, you never had the pleasure of playing Manic Miner on one of these beauties http://www.oldcomputers.net/atari800.html?00:35
pedja(I had the XL variant)00:35
pedjaand I think I still have an 130XE somewhere.00:38
pedja128kb of RAM.Who needs more than that?00:39
pedjaI think that Dr.Chucks video on Python regex is one of the best introductions to that particular subject I've seen.00:44
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donatoMorning02:28
ryu0donato: suggestion: #lpmc channel.03:13
donatoryu0: Will check that out03:19
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donatoDefinitely sounds like an interesting project, unfortunately their standards and practices repo seems to be deleted03:26
ryu0donato: it's not a project really. it's more of a community thing.03:27
ryu0but whatever. you'd have to hang around. =p03:28
donatoWith me starting to learn C I will need such communities I think haha03:29
donatoChecked out the book yesterday a bit03:30
donatoI will probably need people looking over my code now and then and see if it's ok or not. You can check it too if you want :p03:33
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ryu0donato: https://xkcd.com/1513/03:39
donatoHaha03:40
ryu0donato: http://xkcd.com/1695/03:40
john_cephalopodaThe alt text of 1513 :D03:40
ryu0donato: i guess if you want to work on a "meaningful" project, you can learn from revdep. i'm planning to rewrite it again when my semester is over.03:41
ryu0it's small scale and does a meaningful task.03:42
donatoSure, I'm in03:42
ryu0it's something i wrote just for crux.03:42
ryu0the original design was from crux.03:42
ryu0but it was way slower in its first implementation.03:43
ryu0donato: i'll be using C++ though, not C for this project.03:43
ryu0just fyi.03:43
ryu0donato: oh, and there's something you should know about the relationship between C and C++. they've largely grown apart.03:44
ryu0ANSI C is the only dialect they really have in common.03:44
ryu0And C++ changed some of the rules about how C code operates.03:44
donatoOh ok, but I still should learn a lot from following you rewriting it03:44
ryu0so it's not a truesuperset.03:44
ryu0superset03:44
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Anon421hey03:45
ryu0C99 and later has features C++ doesn't support at all.03:45
ryu0and such.03:45
ryu0not that C++ needs them.03:45
donatoWas it originally written in C then?03:46
ryu0donato: no, the original was shell script. my first rewrite was C but i moved to C++ after that.03:46
donatoBecause of performance or extra functions you got from C++? Or what was the specific reason?03:46
ryu0donato: it was just easier to implement stuff because C++ comes with more data structure than C out of the box.03:47
ryu0i didn't feel like reimplementing yet another common supporting data structure.03:47
donatoBut is it still better to learn C first and then go on to C++?03:47
ryu0it's up to you. it's what i picked. just know learning C first tends to make you think less in the world of objects and more in the world of procedures.03:48
john_cephalopodadonato: I started with C++.03:48
ryu0i've tried to learn more OO concepts, mainly because so many places demand it these days.03:48
donatojohn_cephalopoda: Did you move on to C afterwards or stayed with C++?03:48
ryu0C++ has its own problems, mainly language complexity. Go was created because people at google found C++ to be too complex for their uses.03:49
john_cephalopodadonato: I learned some C snippets because you can basically write C in C++ - with some exceptions.03:49
ryu0from what i remember reading, the founders of Go hated C++.03:50
john_cephalopodaHaha, go :D03:50
john_cephalopodaIt was really popular and in every IT magazine for a few months.03:50
ryu0i would prefer not to use C++ for this project, but it's a necessity to draw in a gazillion new dependencies for just 1 utility.03:50
donatoThink I will start with learning C, follow your rewrite in C++ and see if that gets me more interested in C++ and then I still can decide to start learning that instead of C03:50
ryu0err03:51
john_cephalopodaNow a programming language ranking said that it is way below Common Lisp in language popularity.03:51
ryu0i would prefer not to use C++ for this project, but it's a necessity to avoid drawing in a gazillion new dependencies for just 1 utility.03:51
ryu0john_cephalopoda: really.03:51
ryu0john_cephalopoda: i take your ranking and raise you this one: http://www.tiobe.com/tiobe-index/03:51
john_cephalopodaryu0: I think it was tiobe03:51
donatojohn_cephalopoda: It still does sound interesting for networking/webdev projects03:51
ryu0it's #13 on tiobe now.03:51
ryu02.001%03:52
john_cephalopodaIt rose again.03:52
ryu0donato: you can use C, but you have to do a lot of manual work.03:52
ryu0donato: just fyi.03:52
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ryu0donato: and in the end, every language and paradigm ends up with a series of design patterns for common tasks.03:53
donatoThat's what I wanted to ask, if I start learning C, I will probably still understand nearly everything that you write in C++, right?03:53
ryu0not entirely. C++ has a lot of syntax constructs C does not.03:54
ryu0and C++ inherits all of C's flaws.03:54
ryu0namely the preprocessor.03:54
ryu0it means C++ will never have proper source code modules, just like C. :|03:54
john_cephalopodaC++ has strings. Which are pretty awesome. Way less pointer madness.03:54
ryu0yes, it does a lot right in spite of that.03:54
john_cephalopodaWhen you pass a char*** a03:55
john_cephalopoda:D03:55
ryu0donato: just know not everywhere here is an actual programmer. scripting isn't the same level of ability.03:56
ryu0many are more like system admins or other kinds of power users.03:56
john_cephalopodaryu0: Ah, look into the November 2015 column. Go was #48, way behind LISP.03:57
donatoryu0: Saw that your name was on the crux homepage, so I trust your programming skills haha.03:58
ryu0it is?03:58
donatoBut the crux community is definitely more helpful than some others03:58
donatoYes, with the revdep package03:58
ryu0Oh, there.03:58
ryu0software development is quite involved. for revdep, i'm constrained by the environment. i can't use a language that isn't available as part of the basic setup.03:59
ryu0which limits me mainly to C or C++.03:59
ryu0because it comes free with gcc.03:59
donatoWhich language would you like to use if you would have the possibility to rewrite it in a different one?04:00
ryu0that, i really don't know.04:00
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ryu0donato: so question, just how much do you know about OS architecture?04:01
ryu0donato: when your program "writes to the screen", did you ever stop to wonder how it does that?04:02
ryu0i'm talking basic console output.04:02
john_cephalopoda0xBADBOO2 iirc :304:02
john_cephalopodaO=004:02
donatoryu0: With some programs I did wonder and checked out the process of how they do it04:03
ryu0there's more to it than just the puts or printf you see.04:03
donatoI basically worked with debian the last few years and there everything came just out of the box and worked04:03
ryu0does "system call" ring a bell?04:03
donatoNow with crux I had to get into the system and see how I can change and tweak everything and I had to read about what does what04:04
john_cephalopodaryu0: OS dev is super-hard. I started learning C++ to be able to write an OS 7 years ago and I still don't get most of OS stuff.04:04
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ryu0john_cephalopoda: nah, i'm just talking about knowing enough to work within an existing one.04:04
donatoryu0: It's using functionality of the kernel from the program isn't it?04:04
donatoAt least that's what I remember04:05
ryu0donato: it's a request for kernel services. your "console output" is actually an abstraction over a write system call to the standard output file descriptior.04:05
john_cephalopodaryu0: Don't know if it is important to know lowlevel things for the beginning. Syscalls are not very different from other functions when seen from a programmer perspective.04:06
ryu0ACTION shrugs.04:06
john_cephalopodaAnyway, I'm tired.04:07
john_cephalopodaNight04:07
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donatoryu0: By the way, how did you come to crux? And did it make you learn more low level things or did you already know that beforehand?04:09
ryu0i don't really *use* crux anymore. i did a long time ago. i learned a great deal from working on frugalware instead.04:10
donatoAnd why did you stop using it?04:11
ryu0i think in part i got tired of compiling everything.04:11
ryu0these days i just use linux mint04:11
ryu0i'd rather focus on software development than fighting my system.04:12
donatoOk, that's a valid reason. I will see how it will be. It's my first OS like this04:14
donatoOk, going to get some sleep now. Have a nice evening.04:20
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abenzryu0: if you use any desktop-class CPU from the past 3 years it should barely make a difference whether you are running a source based or a binary based system04:25
abenzI'm curious, "fighting" ? I run sysup and everything gets sorted by itself, its not like one has to download tarballs etc04:26
abenzI run debian on my laptop mainly for power management etc, but on my desktop crux has been used in "production" and very well at that04:27
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ryu0abenz: you assume i still use desktops.04:33
abenzhence the if statement at my first comment :)04:35
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pedjaheh, one of the most popular extensions for MS Code editor is vim-mode :)06:14
brian|lfslol06:17
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SitriPretty good indication that their UI paradim isn't effective.06:25
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ryu0Sitri: Or, they just happen to have a lot of vim lovers.07:56
SitriWhat kind of vim-lover would willingly constrain themselves like that?07:57
ryu0Sitri: no idea. why not ask them?07:59
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cruxbot[opt.git/3.2]: lvm2: update to 2.02.16815:40
cruxbot[opt.git/3.2]: tdb: update to 1.3.1215:40
cruxbot[opt.git/3.2]: rpcbind: update to 0.2.415:40
cruxbot[core.git/3.2]: libdevmapper: update to 1.02.13715:42
frinnstDevice: /dev/sde [SAT], 417 Offline uncorrectable sectors15:59
frinnstRIP old friend15:59
frinnstDate: 20 SEP 200715:59
cruxbot[contrib.git/3.2]: mpv: update to 0.22.016:20
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frinnstim thinking of writing a letter of complaint to seagate21:19
frinnsti bought this new computer that came with this disk: https://planet-express.se/amiga/20161203-221552.jpg21:19
frinnst1) its really small21:19
frinnst2) it was DOA21:19
frinnst:(21:19
dbrookeI have one of those on the workbench at the moment. It still works, has DOS on it and some old programs for customising Philips radio transceivers and for driving a parallel port attached EPROM programmer.21:31
dbrookeThe power connector broke and I've had to solder a flying lead to what's left of the tracks on the PCB.21:31
frinnstI bought 2 amiga 4000. one just needed a new battery and I have it up and running21:37
nullspoonfrinnst: I wanted to do the same. I have a laptop that was designed for a seagate drive that's thinner than any laptop drives on the market. Seagate no longer makes this drive, so if this one dies, I'm out of luck.21:37
frinnstthe other had some pcb damage and will need atleast a new capacitor and a lead to bypass the pcb damage21:38
frinnstI found some old amiga diskettes today. old ncomm backup full with phonenumbers and passwords :-)21:38
frinnstand backup of my bbs userdata21:39
frinnsthttps://planet-express.se/amiga/IMG_20161203_180830.jpg21:39
frinnstl33t21:39
frinnstnullspoon: ide? thinner than a cf card?21:43
nullspoonfrinnst: it's a 7mm laptop drive, not the standard 9.5 mm.21:46
nullspoonI didn't even know about 7mm drives until I tried to replace it becuase the seagate has a firmware bug that hasn't been fixed since seagate stopped making my model.21:47
nullspoonGuess I should have done more research.21:47
tilmanfrinnst: new domain means you ended up selling obra.se to that art gallery?22:11
frinnstaye22:35
frinnstnullspoon: if its ide you could replace with a cf-card and adaptor22:37
nullspoonhmm. Hadn't thought about looking at an adapter. The only thing I'd come up with was a solid state, which would fit since I think most of those are 7mm. I'd rather than the capacity of a rotating though.22:39
frinnstcf-cards are about 3-4mm thick22:44
nullspoonthat'd certainly fit. I haven't looked at cf-cards in a long time. Don't know what their storage capacity is.22:47
nullspoonI'm feeling some research coming on22:47
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