IRC Logs for #crux Wednesday, 2017-04-19

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brian|lfslol pedja03:26
brian|lfsif they don't want to enable pulseaudio that's fine just don't explicitly disable it03:26
brian|lfssame with cups I think cups is disabled on Firefox by default on CRUX03:27
brian|lfsjaeger, seems ok with pulseaudio Romster acts light it is evil03:27
joacimshould only support OSSv403:29
brian|lfsdoes CRUX have OSSv403:29
brian|lfsOne thing about CRUX very positive I"m run archlinux and gentoo both plenty of times and CRUX seemed like an easier platform to try building packages on03:31
brian|lfsI didn't dare bother trying on other distro even ARCHLINUX for example uses PKgfiles like CRUX but the syntax on CRUX is just more simple and the tools are more simpile for managing packages.03:32
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xveehey jaeger, one of the mate packages isn't building properly. libsecrets spit out an error about not being able to load a network entity03:39
xveeif you're not the one maintaining the packages, my apologies. also, hi chat. its been a while!03:39
jaegerxvee: do you have docbook-x{m,s}l installed?03:40
xveei should. let me double check03:42
xveeit is. let me rebuild and see if that fixes it03:44
xveerebuilt both, tried installing and it still fails03:45
jaegerpost a build log03:46
jaegeras far as I know libsecret doesn't require docbook stuff but maybe something else does03:47
joacimbrian|lfs: there used to be one, but i stopped using it a long time ago. i think i might have the port somewhere03:47
xveejaeger forgive me, i forgot the name of the program that uploads the failed buildlog to pastebin03:49
jaegerwgetpaste is one, or you can: cat log | curl -F 'sprunge=<-' http://sprunge.us03:49
xveewget paste!03:49
xveeits been a while03:49
xveeone moment03:49
joacimhttps://github.com/joacimot/CRUX-Ports/tree/3221155dc3584991fb6253ae7962edc13ca0a313/oss03:52
xveehttps://paste.pound-python.org/show8cVjVaJdzZgf3VQOySOO03:54
jaegerthat link doesn't seem to work03:55
xveehttps://paste.pound-python.org/show/8cVjVaJdzZgf3VQOySOO03:56
xveetrying to type it out. dont have a de setup yet03:56
jaegeryeah, definitely a docbook problem03:58
jaegerI'd suggest either uninstalling docbook-*, removing /etc/xml entirely, and reinstalling them, or installing libsecret while docbook* are NOT installed03:58
jaegerI can't duplicate it here, for what that's worth, built fine03:59
jaeger(except that there's a new manpage in the footprint)03:59
jaegerfrankly, docbook is voodoo04:03
xveehah. jaeger im not sure if you remember me, but these things always tend to happen04:05
xveethings that dont break on anyone elses rig shatter on mine04:05
jaegerI remember :)04:06
xveeyeah, removing and rebuilding didn't help. dang.04:07
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xveeill work on it more tomorrow.thanks again jaeger.04:22
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brian|lfstalked about old school redhat 5.05 released 1997 installing it in virtualbox06:11
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Romsterhttps://aliver.wordpress.com/2016/02/17/why-i-dislike-pulseaudio/06:32
brian|lfsI tend to have issues without it06:34
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ryu0about the only thing i find pulseaudio is good for is hotplug audio devices, namely bluetooth. ALSA doesn't handle those well.06:49
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just_funFrom what I've understood, pulseaudio is a layer over alsa, and the devels love it because is much simpler to integrate than alsa. If the users report more problems with pulseaudio than alsa, well, it doesn't seems out of line with all the other tech stuff.07:59
just_funI the devels love pulseaudio, there is only one outcome.08:00
frinnstwell to be fair alsa is very basic08:23
frinnstits mostly just a hardware interface08:23
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cruxbot[opt.git/3.3]: [notify] jre: update to 1.8.0_13109:12
cruxbot[opt.git/3.3]: hpcups: update to 3.17.409:12
cruxbot[opt.git/3.3]: mutt: update to 1.8.209:12
cruxbot[opt.git/3.3]: ocaml: update to 4.04.109:12
cruxbot[opt.git/3.3]: sshfs-fuse: update to 2.909:12
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cruxbot[opt.git/3.3]: [notify] flash-player-plugin: security update to 25.0.0.14809:52
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pedjaonly 'issue' I have with PA is that tvtime mutes master on exit, but that's tvtime's fault11:38
pedjaPA mostly JustWorks[tm] for me11:38
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pedjaI suspect that some of the issues in that 'kill PA with fire' blog post are ALSA related ( mis-labeling channels)11:41
pedjasince I disabled PA autostart from /usr/etc/xdg/autostart, Xfce starts faster and PA starts on demand.11:46
pedjathat's because I am old-skul and use startx instead of that login GUI thingie :)11:48
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xeirrrfrinnst: hi, if firefox totally switch backend to pulseaudio, will we still update it? it's very soon i think.11:53
abenzwe'll start a petition11:55
pedjathey switched to PA in their official binaries, but I don't think they'll nuke alsa backend just yet11:55
abenzand gather signatures11:55
pedjajust let it rot11:55
abenzwe could drop firefox and switch to netsurf..11:56
abenzACTION ducks11:56
pedjaI use the official binary, anyway :)11:56
xeirrrpedja: i dont think so.11:56
pedjayou don't thinks so what?11:57
xeirrrpedja: many threads and google results i read tell me mozilla really want to nuke alsa...11:57
pedjadid they explicitly said that in the bug thread?11:58
abenzwhats the problem with pulseaudio? systemd deps?11:58
pedjawhat systemd deps?11:59
abenzthat was a question pedja :)11:59
xeirrrpedja: not yet, but i think it will eventually do that.11:59
abenzsince it comes from the same guy whos behind systemd..11:59
abenzand those folks like hard deps..11:59
pedjasystemd is optional.for now :)12:00
abenzemphasis *for now*12:00
pedjaand PA is used on more that Linux (TrueOS is using it, iirc)12:01
xeirrrabenz: there is a apulse project https://github.com/i-rinat/apulse, this provides pa emulation for alsa, but i doubt it's worth a shot.12:02
xeirrrpedja: really? bsd forks use that?12:03
pedjaTrueOS is not a fork, it is FreeBSD+desktop stuff12:03
xeirrrahhh, i mean bsd guys12:04
xeirrri just noticed firefox 53 source code is already in moziila ftp, but it lacks a release note now which i am waiting for.12:06
pedjaif you have a Samsung "smart TV", it runs pulseaudio :)12:06
pedja(Tizen OS)12:06
cruxbot[opt.git/3.3]: jdk: update to 1.8.0_13112:06
pedjathat was fast12:07
pedjathanks12:07
xeirrrindeed12:07
abenzI see12:09
pedjaThe fact that Linux is slowly becoming less fragmented as an OS might be a good or a bad thing, depending on perspective12:12
abenzb b but "...one thing and do it well"12:14
pedjaLinux is not Unix, so that doesn't apply :)12:14
pedjaI feel that 'do one thing and do it well' is often misunderstood12:16
SitriMonoculture produces stagnantism12:18
pedjaopenssh, openssl12:19
pedjaeverybody and their cat are using those12:21
SitriSure, and how much do those change?12:22
SitriWell SSH anyways.  OpenSSL keeps up with new protocols.12:22
pedjaand openssh deprecates and removes old cruft all the time12:23
pedjanot a surprise, given it's OpenBSD roots12:24
pedjaroot DNS servers, OTOH, run several DNS servers12:25
pedjano monoculture there12:25
pedjaand the classic case of one the COM registries running Linux, FreeBSD and Solaris servers12:26
pedjaas part of the infrastructure12:26
pedjathe point is, putting all the development effort in a few projects sometimes makes sense12:27
pedjait all depends, as always12:27
pedjaOpenZFS is good example12:29
pedjainstead of Illumos, FreeBSD and Linux all doing their own thing in separate silos, they pooled the developers resources12:30
pedjaand now, zfs is the most portable across Unix-ish OS file system12:32
SitriZFS competes with brtfs.  Also what's your point with the DNS servers?12:32
pedjaZFS came first :)12:33
SitriSure, and yet brtfs still came to exist.12:33
pedjaand 9 years later, it's still somewhat experimental12:34
pedjasure, it works for most of the people most of the time12:35
pedjabcachefs is an interesting one12:35
pedjastill far from upstreaming, last I checked12:36
pedjathe point with root DNS servers using different versions of software is that sometimes yes, monoculture is bad12:38
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pedjabut not all the time, imho12:40
pedjaI am curious on consequences of having 3 major 'cloud providers'12:44
pedjahow do you compete with Amazon, Google and Azure? You can't12:45
pedjanot on services they provide12:46
pedjaspeaking of mono cultures, what about Github?12:48
pedjabbl12:50
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loungehey ,I update kernel from 4.9.6 to 4.10.11 and now i got dev/mapper/control failure and i can not  connect to internet16:17
loungei tried to downgrade kernel but when i type "lilo" i get the same mssg dev/mapper/control failed to control16:18
loungewhat shoudl i do?16:19
loungewill updating lilo fix the problem ?16:21
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frinnsti think you have device-mapper stuff added to your kernel but missing lvm2 or something similar16:32
frinnstit should be harmless. your internet issues are unrelated16:33
frinnstsounds like you are using another kernel config for your new kernel - are you missing the driver for your nic perhaps?16:33
frinnstlvm2=opt/lvm2 (to be clear)16:33
cruxbot[opt.git/3.3]: firefox: updated to 53.016:37
frinnstoh, xeirrr left16:46
frinnstanyways if anybody else is wondering - worst case scenario: firefox will be built without audio support16:47
loungefrinnst: yes device-mapper driver missing from kernel ,incompatible libdevmapper and kernel driver ,but i tried to downgrade again and lilo complains with same mssg16:56
loungeafter rebooting i got old kernel back without error16:57
loungeso everything is ok now16:57
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pedjait is always nice when FF update doesn't break any of the extensions I use18:09
pedjaif Mozilla nukes alsa FF backend, I'll make a large bowl of popcorn and watch /r/linux melt in rage18:20
pedjaand I don't even like popcorn18:21
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tsaophello gents18:55
nwehello18:55
tsaoplooks like nss needs to be updated for firefox 53.0 to compile18:55
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joacimevery time someone mentions installing or updating software here I get reminded to update my own server19:09
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timcowchipis cups disabled in firefox?19:21
timcowchipI don't see anything about cups in the pkgfile19:21
timcowchipits not a depenency either19:23
frinnstnope, works fine19:23
frinnstit assumes gtk was compiled with cups support19:23
timcowchipthanks frinnst19:23
frinnsttsaop: cheers. forgot to push that19:23
tsaopfrinnst: thanks!19:25
tsaopalso nspr19:25
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cruxbot[opt.git/3.3]: nss: updated to 3.30.119:27
cruxbot[opt.git/3.3]: nspr: updated to 4.1419:38
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deep42thoughtHi, I just tried to update my ports and firefox failes to compile: http://paste.lisp.org/display/344667 - probably I made a stupid mistake. Can you point me in the right direction?20:21
timcowchipdid you update nss and nspr first?20:23
deep42thoughtnss: yes, nspr: I'll do that now, that you said it20:23
deep42thoughtwas this mentioned somewhere?20:23
timcowchipearlier in the irc20:27
deep42thoughtok, updated nss and nspr (found the hint to nss in the logs, but not the one to nspr), but firefox still fails to compile20:28
deep42thoughthttp://paste.lisp.org/+7DY3/120:29
joacim50 minutes to compile firefox20:31
joacimi should try that with distcc too20:31
frinnstOSError: [Errno 13] Permission denied20:34
frinnstfakeroot?20:34
deep42thoughtyes, it's in fakeroot20:34
frinnstpermissions under /usr/ports/work ?20:35
frinnstyou can obviously write to it.. so odd error20:35
frinnsthttps://duckduckgo.com/?q=OSError%3A+%5BErrno+13%5D+Permission+denied&t=ffsb&ia=qa20:36
deep42thought/usr/ports/work worked before / for other packages20:36
frinnstyou have enough free space?20:37
deep42thought7.1G - is this still enough for firefox?20:38
deep42thought(I compile on a tmpfs)20:38
frinnstdont think so, but you should get further than that20:38
deep42thoughtactually I got 10G - the rest was used by the left overs ...20:40
frinnstshould be enough. but again, check the permissions20:40
frinnstor brute-force it as root, should be ok20:41
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deep42thoughtpermission is ok: directory belongs to "pkgmk" now, who runs pkgmk in a fakeroot, was 'rwxrwxrwt'20:44
deep42thoughtroot can compile it, but I'm really uncomfortable with this solution :-/20:48
frinnstnot sure what to tell you, works fine here with fakeroot20:49
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frinnst>5GB ought to be enough for firefox20:55
frinnsti wonder if the sticky bit causes trouble for you20:55
frinnstand why the crazy permissions?20:55
deep42thoughtuhm20:56
deep42thoughtI guess it was the first setting that worked :-/20:56
pedja755 works too20:58
pedjaif memory serves, FF needs at least 3.8Gb tmpfs to link :)20:59
pedjawhich is fun with 4Gb of RAM21:00
frinnstI got 5GB21:00
frinnstbut i built with rust enabled21:00
deep42thoughtno, 755 doesn't work for me (for no package at all)21:01
deep42thoughtag21:02
deep42thoughtah, the owner needs to be pkgmk, then ... sry21:02
pedja$pkgmk_user:group21:04
pedjafrinnst, you've got 16Gb of RAM in that box?21:07
pedjaare Ryzen CPU's really that affected by RAM speed?21:08
pedjathat Infinity Fabric thing (cool name, btw)21:11
pedjaRyzen 5 1600 is ~250 Euros here21:12
pedjanot many m/b to choose from, though21:12
pedjaif you are not a fan of epilepsy-inducing lightning21:14
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joacimmy system uses less than 1GB in normal operation21:20
joacimbut I need 8GB still to compile firefox =)21:20
joacimthey really should make glow in the dark pcbs21:21
pedjawhen some marketing genius picks up that idea, I'll blame you :)21:27
pedja'see, the people want that, I've read it on the Intertubes'21:28
joacimi wouldnt be surprised if dfi or someone like that made glow in the dark motherboards21:28
joacimi hope asus dont quote me from our irc logs when justifying their decisions to complainers21:29
pedjawhen the selling point for some m/b is 'now with additional room for LED stripes!', that's the 'logical' next step21:31
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pedjawhatever happened to minimalism? it's getting ridiculous (took me a while to spell that last one)21:34
pedjaor maybe I am old, so I don't get the young these days21:35
pedjasome people my age, or older, are dying their hair, so they would appear younger. it's...sad21:38
pedjadyeing* (I think)21:39
frinnstpedja: 3221:39
pedjanice21:39
pedjareddit is full with 'get the samsung b-die RAM'21:41
pedjaspecial snowflakes21:43
pedjawhich is an oxymoron of sorts, because every snowflake is special21:44
pedja(random fact of the day)21:45
joacimthis is why i've been looking more at workstations and older computers during the last couple of years21:47
joacimnever could learn to like gamer stuff21:47
pedja'Docker Orchestration' book is ~300 pages, and I've been reading it for a month. my concentration is...what was I talking about?21:48
pedjajoacim, we have an Ebay of sorts here, but I was always wary of buying from it, for some reason21:50
pedjaone of the reasons is that I can't afford it atm :)21:50
joacimgot this laptop from ebay21:51
joacimbut pitney bowes managed to destory it somehow21:52
joacimso i got my money back. now i have a laptop with cracked parts i paid nothing for =)21:52
pedjawhat/who is 'pitney bowes'?21:52
joacimebay uses them for international orders21:53
pedjacourier service?21:53
joacima bit21:53
joacimamerican sellers send their stuff to the global shipping center21:53
pedjanot much of a service, eh?21:54
joacimyou can use fedex or whatever else you prefer for that stage21:54
joacimthen they open your package for inspection, close it up, and send it to you. for me they ship it with landmark and postnord i think21:54
pedjawhat about customs and taxes? how is that handled?21:55
joacimproblem is, when they close up the package, they don't always do a good enough job of making sure the packaging material surrounds the item21:55
joacimso you end up like me where the laptop got its side smashed up in shipping21:55
pedjadamn21:55
joacimcustoms and taxes are handled directly through ebay21:55
joacimat least when you buy from norway. i dont know how they handle other countries21:56
joacimi dont have to pay more than what i already paid through ebay21:56
joacimthe seller must specify that they use the global shipping program tho.21:56
joacimif they just ship it to you through dhl or usps or something like that, you'll have to deal with customs and taxes yourself21:57
pedjashipping here goes from pricey to 'are you fscking kidding me'21:58
joacimgetting something bigger like a laptop sent through gsp isnt that expensive21:59
joacimbut for smaller stuff like games, it really isnt worth it21:59
pedjawhat's the VAT in .no? 20%?21:59
joacim25% =)21:59
pedjaso you must be filthy rich, then :)22:00
joacimyes the government provides every citizen with a medium sized mansion22:01
joacimbecause in one lifetime, you pay that much in tax anyways22:01
pedja:)22:01
pedjafriends of mine almost went to Norway to work22:02
pedjashe as a english teacher, he as a admin or something22:02
pedjabut, shit happens, so22:03
joacimthought about moving22:03
pedjaVAT was 8% on hardware for a while, and then they got greedy22:03
joacimbut i have a feeling i will make less money, and still have to pay the same for hardware and goods22:04
joacimi dont mind the 25%, as long as it goes to something useful22:04
joacimi dont think it does tho22:04
joacimthat my city is salting the roads in winter is driving me nuts22:05
joacimi cant ride my bike22:05
joacimall my shoes and clothes get salt marks on them22:05
pedjano separate road for bikes?22:05
joacimand i love snow22:05
joacimthey salt sidewalks and bicycle lanes too22:05
joacimcould say all this salt is making me salty22:06
pedjacome here in the winter, lots of snow, no salt on non-main roads/sidewalks22:08
pedjabicycle lanes are rare, thou, but that adds to the challenge22:10
joacimthe netherlands could be ok22:10
joacimor i could just move to a different city where people arent afraid of some snow22:11
pedjawe had some snow in the morning. it was weird22:11
joacimyeah. i have snow in may sometimes22:14
joacimbut that is rare22:15
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