IRC Logs for #crux Wednesday, 2018-06-13

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ryuoStill, seems iffy... physical keyboards are still superior.01:59
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joacimnot sure what is wrong03:47
joacimbut i havent heard any seagulls in a very long time03:47
jaegerMy ryzen 7 hasn't crashed or rebooted since I found that power setting in the BIOS, pretty happy about that04:06
joacimoh? what kind of power setting?04:11
jaegersomething about power supply idle control, had to set it to "typical load"... I don't remember the exact wording, will look next time I'm in the BIOS on it04:15
jaegerbut it seems solid so far04:15
jaegerIf it is indeed fixed, I guess the issue was power the whole time04:15
jaegerat least with the replacement CPU. The original was definitely one of the faulty models04:15
joacimsounds strange04:15
joacimold PSU?04:16
joacimI remember there was a thing recently about needing a power supply that was ready for the new Intel CPUs. some marketing claim that the new CPUs used to little power when idle, power supplies could go into idle =)04:16
joacimi don't really believe that stuff tho. kinda shake my head every time manufacturers talk about power savings04:17
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jaegerno, it was a brand new PSU. Apparently there's just a state where the BIOS puts the CPU into such a low power state it crashes05:47
jaegerso had to tell it not to go into that low power state, basically05:47
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cruxbot[core.git/3.4]: lilo: new home page location07:23
cruxbot[opt.git/3.4]: imagemagick: new source URL07:39
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frinnstCHMOD 777 ALL THE THINGS09:46
ryuofrinnst: ?09:56
john_cephalopodafrinnst: nodejs?09:56
frinnstno, just a wordpress site he's uploaded09:58
frinnstit keeps breaking because he likes to do this09:58
ryuofrinnst: so... he breaks the site and you have to fix it? is that it?09:59
ryuois one of your clients a shared web host then?10:01
john_cephalopodaAny recommendation for low-power home servers?10:09
john_cephalopodaI am planning to host a website from home.10:10
ryuojohn_cephalopoda: system requirements?10:17
john_cephalopodaNothing big. Just serving static websites.10:17
ryuojohn_cephalopoda: i'm guessing raspberry pi is the cheapest option, but the most limited.10:17
john_cephalopodaShouldn't draw too much power.10:17
john_cephalopodaMmh, it's ARM.10:18
ryuoIf you don't like ARM, there's always x86.10:18
ryuobut, it is the cheapest option if you just want a web server with no frills.10:18
john_cephalopodaI'd probably run CRUX on it, so x86_64 with Atom or similar would be advantageous.10:18
ryuothere is crux arm.10:19
ryuobut no idea how usable it is.10:19
john_cephalopodaIt looks like it's relatively usable but it's still at 3.3.10:19
ryuohow much is your budget then?10:19
joacimfor arm there is the odroid hc110:19
john_cephalopodaI don't really want to spend much more than 100€.10:19
joacimbut a low power celeron board is probably good enough if you want amd6410:19
ryuothat pretty much eliminates new x86.10:19
ryuoyour best bet is something used then.10:20
ryuoor... cheapo intel atom crap.10:20
john_cephalopodaHmm, to ARM or not to ARM...10:20
ryuoheh. i've been considering an alix apu myself...10:21
joacimASUS Prime J3355I-C10:21
ryuobut that's outside your price range.10:21
joacimsomething like this would be less than 100 euro10:21
joacimbut, you still need a case and psu10:21
joacimram too.10:21
ryuoyea... what do you have for parts...?10:22
joacima pcengines apu2 would be about 150-200 euro with a case and power supply10:22
ryuoyea. and it still needs storage.10:22
ryuom.sata, sd card, ...10:22
ryuoit's just hard for me to recommend ARM. they tend to have a crappier support life cycle than an average x86.10:23
ryuomostly because you can't easily take any random distribution or kernel and expect it to work.10:24
joacimyeah. might end up stuck with armbian as the only valid option10:24
joacimat least while that distro supports your specific board10:24
joacimwhat i dont like about most of these arm systems10:24
ryuox86 makes it easier to run minority distributions like CRUX.10:24
ryuoi just remembered. there's some other x86 boards...10:25
joacimdont know how well those old geode boards works these days10:26
joacimfor a simple site with few users, they should be fine10:26
ryuoprobably good enough.10:26
ryuoi think their best bet is something used.10:27
joacimseen people host some nice sites on pentium systems running freebsd10:27
ryuojoacim: used HP thin clients are a popular thing to repurpose into servers. i've also seen people mod them into firewalls.10:28
joacimdont know if low power xeons work on those boards10:28
joacimyeah a thin client sounds nice10:29
ryuoAnd, still upgradeable if you want to add to them.10:29
ryuousually can get a complete system for ~$50 USD10:30
ryuominus periphereals anyway.10:30
ryuojohn_cephalopoda: ^10:32
ryuoif i was budget limited, i'd just buy an old thin client and repurpose it. x86 is a lot easier to deal with than ARM for hobbyist stuff.10:33
john_cephalopodaHeh, a thin client becoming a server? :D10:34
ryuoyea. it's possible. people do it.10:34
ryuoi think you're limited to internal flash storage, but it's replaceable.10:35
ryuoRAM can be upgraded if desired.10:35
ryuothough some of the thin clients have an expansion slot...10:36
ryuoif that's a big deal, maybe try to find one.10:37
john_cephalopodaLol, I can get a cheap Thin Client for 11€ :D10:38
john_cephalopodaUsed though.10:38
dbrookeit'll probably cost more than that to power it for a year 8-)10:39
dbrookeI have about 10 ARM SBCs in use but they're running Debian variants. I should try CRUX on one of the new Raspberry Pis I just got.10:41
ryuodbrooke: depends, but you may be right.10:44
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dbrookemy home stuff (servers, switches, routers, phones, CCTV, WiFi etc.) uses about 400W which costs me about £420 a year10:50
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dbrookethough one server will be retired soon once I've virtualised its workload10:51
john_cephalopodaHmmm. I think I might just choose the RasPi.11:12
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pedjadbrooke, what will you use? something like proxmox?11:22
pedjaheh. once I stopped docker daemon, cpu temps dropped 15C11:24
pedjawth it pegs both cores to nearly 100% while *idle*?11:25
dbrookeI already use SmartOS as a virtualisation host. I'll try to move those services to its native OS zone(s) if I can do so easily, but otherwise it provides KVM so I can also continue to use Linux as a guest11:29
pedjaSmartOS is pretty cool, it's on my TODO list to play with it11:33
pedjaZones, dtrace, zfs, that network thingie. some pretty interesting technologies11:34
dbrookeI moved all my existing Linux guests to it (from Linux KVM as a host) about a year ago but I've been trying to use native zones for new deployments11:35
dbrookeits KVM is old but they're working on providing bhyve as a more performant and maintainable hypervisor11:36
ryuojohn_cephalopoda: fair enough. the rPI uses 5V @ up to 2.5A. that's their recommend power adapter last I checked.11:37
pedjadbrooke, yeah, one of the developers was a guest on BSDnow talking about it.11:38
ryuojohn_cephalopoda: be sure to get the latest model that uses gigabit ethernet. it won't reach that level, but it's still better than the past.11:39
ryuojohn_cephalopoda: as for cases, i use flirc myself.11:39
ryuojohn_cephalopoda: it's a very effective heat sink.11:39
ryuoas well.11:39
pedjadbrooke, how difficult was the migration? their OS templates are json based, right?11:40
dbrookepedja: ah right, I'll have to look for that11:40
pedjajson is a bit easier to handle that libvirt xml ones, I guess :)11:41
pedjaI have a few vmware/vbox VM's to migrate to libvirt11:43
dbrookeI basically used ssh/dd to transfer the disk images from lvm on the original host into zvols on the new host and created matching json templates for the new instance11:43
pedjathat's not so bad11:44
pedjaany performance gains after the migration?11:45
dbrookeyes but its not a fair comparison as the replacement server is more powerful (AMD N40L microserver to Xeon  E3-1225 v3)11:47
ryuowow that cpu *sucks*.11:48
dbrookegeneral thought seems to be that the KVM network performance is not very good (hence migrating to bhyve) and zvols probably have some overhead but for me the hardware improvement soaked that up11:51
dbrookeI can't find any templates from my migration but is what I initially used for a new CRUX VM11:54
pedjathat looks straightforward enough12:38
pedjaah. so this was used as a cooling in Intel's 28 core 5ghz demo12:59
dbrookethe only difference I can remember for the migrations was to specify the MAC address for the NIC (so DHCP and SLAAC gave the same IPs) and no need for the ssh key since the disk image I copied over had an authorized_keys file already13:03
pedjadbrooke, this might be interesting to you
john_cephalopodaNext thing will be overclockable 128-core @5GHz AMD with liquid nitrogen cooling.13:08
pedjait will be interesting to see what's the upper limit for Zen213:11
abenza new process needs time to mature13:12
pedjabut I am wondering why Intel, with near monopoly on server market, looks to be really worried with AMD's TR and Epyc13:13
abenzhah, they need to.. have you seen epyc prices?\13:13
abenzintels prices are absolute ripoffs once you see AMDs13:14
abenzthey enjoyed huge margins for very long13:14
pedja60+% in the server market, iirc13:15
abenzthe fact they hired jim keller shows they don't have a "killer new arch" up their sleeve..13:15
pedjaisn't he doing the embedded stuff?13:16
pedjagoing against ARM in that market should be fun to watch13:16
abenziirc, he did the apple a4/a5 or so..  but he did many high profile cpu designs like amd k8 or so13:17
abenzand he co-authored AMD6413:17
abenzaka x86_6413:17
pedjaapple, amd, intel, tesla. quite a CV :)13:17
abenzyea.. I was under the impression intel had tech that was so far ahead, but that htey were holding it back to milk consumers with their 5% yearly increases13:18
abenzalongside new sockets and chipsets of course13:18
abenzbut when they hired keller that shows they really are in panic mode13:18
pedjawell, monolith arch has hit the limits13:19
pedjaZen is smart and elegant way to make CPU's, imho13:20
abenzI read somewhere the main zen guy was not actually keller, but another guy13:20
abenzwhos still with AMD13:20
pedjathe legend says that both Zen and Vega were 'pet projects' at first13:22
abenzspeaking of ARM, I was really excited when I saw qualcomm and amd do ARM server chips13:22
abenzqualcomms seemed quite interesting13:22
abenzunfortuantely it seems the datacenter still isn't ready for arm13:22
abenzboth companies put it on the back burner13:23
pedjaCavium is making some pretty drool-worthy ARM machines :)13:23
pedjaapparently, new Epyc will be 48 cores13:26
pedjawith 64 core one coming some time in 201913:27
abenzmake -j12813:27
pedjait'll build rust in a less of day ;)13:28
pedjathat would be an interesting test. more slower vs fewer faster cores13:33
pedjaI think jaeger tested for point of diminishing returns, but can't remember the results13:37
abenzfor running lots of VMs, I think a slower epyc would be a better buy over a faster single  core TR13:37
abenzepyc has 8-channel memory also13:38
pedjato clarify, *I* can't remember the results, he probably can :)13:38
abenzbut if you want to game on a windows VM with pci-passthru and so, then a TR would be better I suppose13:38
jaegerfrinnst: <-- this seems topical13:40
frinnstlol wtf13:43
jaegeryeah, I did some diminishing returns tests with llvm on 8, 16, and 24 cores13:47
pedjaabenz, from what I've seen, setting up pci-passthru on AMD is still fiddly. might be better by now, thou13:48
pedjajaeger, you need to persuade joacim to run that test on his TR box13:50
jaegerI think we talked about that, don't remember the results13:51
joacimyeah i havent been in a hurry =)13:51
joacimstill need  to setup crux on it13:51
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jaegerI guess you could test that on any linux14:14
pedjaif you need to brush up on your dinosaur knowledge before going to see the new Jurassic Park movie :)14:25
joacimthat doesnt look on topic at all14:26
joacim"Your graphics card does not seem to support WebGL."14:26
pedjajoacim, for dinosaurs go to the mao14:27
pedjaargh. main site14:28
john_cephalopodaGo to him:
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john_cephalopodaryuo: Which flirc case are you using for raspi?15:28
john_cephalopodaAlso, is a case necessary?15:37
ryuojohn_cephalopoda: this one:
ryuojohn_cephalopoda: no, not really, but i recommend one to help dissipate the heat. the rPI can get very hot. this is far more effective than the common smaller heatsinks others use, but not super expensive.15:53
ryuojohn_cephalopoda: in essence, you need to at least purchase:15:54
ryuorPI board, power adapter (a *good* one, 5V @ 2.5A), some micro sd card. I think 8G is the minimum.15:55
ryuocase is technically optional.15:55
ryuobut i think it's a good idea anyway.15:55
ryuobut your call.15:55
ryuoit just helps protect it from dust, etc.15:55
joacimlooks fairly nice15:56
ryuoi mean, would you run an x86 board w/o a case?15:56
ryuoif not, then you should probably get a flirc case.15:56
ryuoit's pretty effective at dealing with heat, even under the worst loads.15:57
joacimi bought this, but i dont like the way you mount the board15:57
joacimthere is only one standoff. the pi is mostly just held in place by the holes for the ports15:57
john_cephalopodaI got some amazon gift cards so I'd buy stuff on amazon.15:57
ryuoit's not a full-aluminum case.15:58
joacimand i think the metal under the usb and ethernet ports are a little suspicious, im afraid its going to short one of the pins15:58
joacimthe ground pins arent that big of a deal, but there are some data ones fairly close to the metal of the case15:58
ryuohow... strange.15:59
ryuoit's actually cheaper in US.15:59
ryuojoacim: flirc case comes with a thermal pad for helping connect it to the cpu.16:00
john_cephalopodaAhrg, flirc doesn't work with German Amazon.16:04
ryuojohn_cephalopoda: it doesn't? then what did I find?16:05
john_cephalopodaOh, yeah, one of two that are sold there. Costs 25€ though.16:06
ryuowould it be easier to import one?16:07
ryuoi don't live in Europe, so i don't know.16:07
ryuoi have two Pis, with different revisions of the flirc case.16:08
ryuoget the newer one if you can. it works better with latest boards.16:08
ryuomostly access to SD card.16:08
ryuoAs for SD cards, choose whatever you want. SLC or MLC ones are preferable if you expect to do more writing.16:09
ryuothe common and cheap TLCs have crappy write endurance.16:09
ryuoi just remembered... vocore.16:10
ryuoif you're into hobbyist projects, it's kinda interesting.16:10
john_cephalopodaryuo: The flirc case on German amazon you posted - is it the latest one?16:11
ryuojohn_cephalopoda: let me check.16:11
ryuofound that sellers website...16:13
ryuoSec. Comparing the odl to the new.16:13
ryuojohn_cephalopoda: ok. the one on their website definitely is the new case. the amazon page has a crap picture so it's hard to say.16:15
john_cephalopoda" Latest version - Built for the Raspberry Pi 3B+ "16:16
ryuojohn_cephalopoda: the main difference is the back part where the SD card goes in has a sunken part now for easier access to the sd card.16:16
john_cephalopodaI'll just get that.16:16
dbrookeI seem to think the Pi 3 B+ has a slightly taller CPU package so the latest FLIRC cases also ship with a thinner thermal pad to suit16:16
ryuothe design for the USB ports is also different.16:17
ryuothe old had nothing between the top and bottom ports.16:17
ryuothe new has a bar between them.16:17
john_cephalopoda5V/3A power, 32 GB SD card, FLIRC case and the Raspi 3B+.16:18
dbrookewell if it says suits 3B+ that's fine16:18
ryuojohn_cephalopoda: 32G? that's a bit much, but i guess it depends on your use case.16:18
ryuoI'm using a 32G high endurance SD card for my dreamplug.16:18
ryuoi love that sucker. it's based on ARMv5, so only Debian still supports it...16:19
ryuobut it's u-boot is 100% open.16:19
ryuoit has gigabit ethernet and a lot of nice IO.16:19
ryuoyou can buy them used pretty cheap on ebay...16:20
ryuocurrently using it as a wireless speaker. ;)16:20
ryuoIt's running Debian 9.16:20
john_cephalopodaryuo: Well, memory area cycling should keep it alive for a long time.16:21
ryuojohn_cephalopoda: fair enough.16:21
ryuojohn_cephalopoda: i was just being careful16:21
ryuodreamplug is a fun device. too bad it's such an antiquated ARM architecture.16:21
ryuoit still has a lot of relevant IO ports.16:22
ryuoeSATA, usb 2.0, 3.5", optical audio, 2x gigabit ethernet...16:22
ryuo3.5mm audio*16:22
ryuono video though.16:23
ryuoAnd, i had to turn off dmix with ALSA to get the sound to stop crackling.16:23
john_cephalopodaryuo: What's the worst thing that could happen with an SD card that's too big?16:23
ryuojohn_cephalopoda: nothing? i just meant you may be paying for more than you need.16:24
john_cephalopodaAh, ok. Well, SD cards are relatively cheap nowadays and better too much memory than too little :þ16:24
ryuoAh! Found it.16:24
ryuothis is what i've been using in my dreamplug.16:25
john_cephalopodaAh. Also got a SanDisk one, faster r/w speed though.16:27
john_cephalopodaI really like that I can now pay for stuff with SEPA in big parts of the EU. I don't need a MasterCard or similar stupid stuff any more.16:28
pedja'2x 24core Xeons, 192+gb of RAM and a SAS array) just for routing' as a pfSense box...17:03
pedjawth is 'Full Fiber array', anyway?17:04
ryuopedja: an array of people that eat plenty of fiber?17:12
pedjaI get the weird image in my head when I hear people say 'you need to eat more fiber'17:15
pedjaalways want to ask 'single or multi-mode?'17:17
john_cephalopodaFiber is healthy. Look at old people. They all got spots on their skin because they ate too much copper.17:17
ryuopedja: isn't that overkill for routing?17:24
pedjaryuo, apparently not for that particular fiber connection17:25
ryuopedja: o.O17:26
ryuopedja: have you seen the ClearFog Base?17:26
ryuoapparently it's a networking platform that has a builtin module for fiber connections.17:27
pedjathat sounds familiar.17:27
pedjaah, SolidRun stuff. yeah, I've heard of it17:28
pedjaI like the industrial look of it17:29
ryuojohn_cephalopoda: hope the case works out for ya. there's also some x86 oddities i've only seen at alibaba.17:29
john_cephalopodaryuo: As I said before, I got some Amazon credit from gift cards, so I saved ~50€ on my purchase.17:30
ryuoAh. Ok.17:31
john_cephalopodaMaybe paid a bit more than I would have had to, but I had to spend that gift card money eventually :þ17:31
ryuolike, try searching pfsense on alibaba. it's an easy way to locate devices with multiple ethernet ports.17:32
ryuoerr aliexpres17:33
ryuoi found a security startup hawking them too.17:33
ryuoi always did wonder why some networking equipment uses ethernet-style ports for serial console...17:34
ryuoSome fetish from Cisco?17:35
john_cephalopodaWell, RasPi is bought.17:35
ryuoseems more confusing than just using RS-232.17:35
john_cephalopodaAnybody still uses RS-232?17:38
pedja270$ for Clearfog Base, with VAT/customs. well, maybe some day :)17:38
pedjahaving cpu with more cores in the router then in the desktop would be a bit weird, thou17:43
pedjaI am talking about this one
ryuojohn_cephalopoda: yes. mainly, for access to IT hardware.17:46
ryuojohn_cephalopoda: Servers, etc.17:46
jaegerI have one of those gen2 flirc cases, the one with  Kodi branding17:46
jaegerI like it17:46
ryuojohn_cephalopoda: my server lacks a physical serial console now, but it's still emulated to the OS.17:47
ryuojohn_cephalopoda: it's access through the ILO now.17:47
ryuoamusing. file copies with CP are faster than through GUI.18:00
pedja'we have no shipping options to your country. Please, try another'18:06
cruxbot[contrib.git/3.4]: redis: 4.0.9 -> 4.0.1018:17
lorddrijenjohn_cephalopoda: networking gear still uses 23218:57
frinnstryuo: an rj45 is much nicer to work with than a rs23219:46
frinnstlots of stuff just use a usb cable these days which is nice. still a serial signal tho19:47
frinnstwow he sure talks about his sponsors alot20:27
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frinnstWe are porting the script to an Android app, to make it even more accessible. I don’t want to be accused of requiring expensive or hard-to-obtain equipment.20:29
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mayfrosthi guys23:07
mayfrostmailx source is 40423:08
mayfrostwho do I warn with this?23:08
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jaegermayfrost: the maintainer23:18
jaegerwhich is listed in the Pkgfile23:18
mayfrostsorry I am new23:21
mayfrostbtw I get an openssl error about a bad record and I am unable to establish ssl connection23:22
mayfrostis probably from that server, nevermind23:24
jaegerno worries, doesn't hurt to ask23:27
mayfrostjust tweaked the pkgfile to install mailx23:48
mayfrostfeeling like a hacker tbh23:48
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