IRC Logs for #crux Sunday, 2018-10-28

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Romsteri'm still using lvm-direct01:45
Romsterany advantage over lvm-direct jaeger ?01:46
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jaegerRomster: just that it's the "preferred" driver now for performance/stability -
jaegerI doubt it'll be any different for my day to day usage02:12
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lone_rangerso why crux? i'm looking for a source based distro03:19
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][_R_][lone_ranger: source-based, sysvinit+initscripts for init, fairly active maintenance team03:41
lone_ranger][_R_][: thank you, but I should have also stated i'm looking to learn, and on a lapop, does that change things?03:42
ryuolone_ranger: gentoo is the only major distro that's of that type.03:57
lone_ranger][_R_][: ok good to  know :)03:58
][_R_][If you're wanting other distros to try out, there's Lunar (also source-based)03:58
ryuolone_ranger: laptop... fun...03:58
lone_rangerryuo: yeah im a broke uni student03:59
][_R_][ACTION used to run Lunar for a bit (back around 2007)03:59
ryuolone_ranger: how old?03:59
lone_rangertwo years03:59
lone_rangerdell inspiron03:59
ryuoOh, not ancient.03:59
ryuoUp to you. I just find configuring kernels a giant pain these days.04:00
][_R_][Yeah, one of the things I really disliked about CRUX04:01
][_R_][Not having a suggested "this will work for most people" configuration was painful04:01
ryuoIt's why I suggested maintaining a kernel LTS for a given crux release.04:01
ryuoHelps people keep their kernels updated.04:02
ryuoFallback config if they don't want to provide one.04:02
ryuoguess i'll write up something later.04:02
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lone_rangerryuo: well since I'd be configuring the kernel do you think I could get more juice out of my laptop?04:46
ryuolone_ranger: maybe, if it's more specifically optimized, but i'd doubt it generally.04:55
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lone_rangerryuo: alright, it was worth consideration05:10
ryuolone_ranger: i personally just use Ubuntu for most systems, but I once used CRUX as a main system.05:11
ryuowas a fair bit of work.05:11
lone_rangerryuo: Im in a learning phase05:11
lone_rangerI use ubuntu right now and its great05:12
ryuoheh. i do stuff your average Ubuntu user would probably never dream of.05:12
ryuoLaptop ZFS mirror on dual SSDs.05:12
lone_rangerdidnt know zfs was on linux05:13
lone_rangeris the laptop custom?05:13
ryuoNot really, it's a Probook 455 G5.05:13
ryuoI did order it customized though through HP Direct.05:13
lone_rangerI run Pentium D:05:13
ryuoI installed upgrades myself to save a buck.05:13
ryuoHP wanted nearly double for the same privilege.05:14
lone_rangertell me how they manage to advertise this with windows idk05:14
ryuowhat do you mean? it's that bad of an experience?05:14
lone_rangerpentium and windows on this mchine yeah05:14
lone_rangerfan was running all the time05:14
ryuoI see.05:14
ryuoI haven't seriously used win10.05:15
ryuoIncidently customized HP laptops can be ordered without windows.05:15
ryuoAt least the business level stuff.05:15
lone_rangerits not a good experience05:15
lone_rangersame with dell, they have some linux ones I think05:15
ryuoYea, but it's hard to find those.05:16
lone_rangerstill some version of dos or freedos inside I think05:16
ryuoMy HP was ordered with FreeDOS.05:16
ryuoI installed Linux myself.05:16
lone_rangervery cool05:16
ryuoSome stuff didn't work but I fixed that.05:16
ryuoBIOS update fixed some of it, a kernel patch fixed the rest.05:16
ryuowhich reminds me, you should probably get your BIOS upgraded. usually fixes stuff.05:17
lone_rangerI wass there was some sort of homebrew pc company that prioritized easy to build and maintain machines05:17
lone_rangerryuo: oh yeah eh didnt know that was a thing05:18
ryuoeh, those kinda exist still. you just have to know where to look.05:18
ryuoLenovo/HP/Dell machines typically have service manuals.05:18
ryuoAvailable to the public.05:18
lone_rangerngl got turned off hp when I tried to fix my moms older laptop05:18
ryuoHP consumer? Yea, that's garbage.05:18
ryuoHP business seems to be another story.05:19
ryuowhat did you try to fix?05:19
lone_rangerthere was a screw under the "cd port" which wasn't in the previous version, almost broke it lol05:19
lone_rangerit was a really roundabout way of taking it apart05:19
ryuoThat's typical of consumer laptops these days.05:19
ryuoThis probook has some things I dislike about disassembly but I do it so infrequently.05:19
ryuoThe back screws off, but is held in by plastic snaps.05:20
lone_rangerhaha nice05:20
ryuoYou have to be gentle to avoid breaking anything.05:20
ryuoIt's not the worst i've seen though.05:20
ryuomost thin & light models are basically unfixable once they break.05:21
lone_rangeryeah I feel lke depsite all the progress since the unix days we've only been going backwards05:21
ryuothis probook is quite serviceable still.05:21
ryuoI can replace all the components I commonly need to.05:21
ryuokeyboard, RAM, storage...05:22
ryuohonestly if you needed a new laptop *now*, i'd say go for AMD Ryzen.05:22
ryuoit'll be awhile before Intel gets their shit together again.05:23
ryuomeltdown and all can only be fixed by new hardware.05:23
lone_rangerreally eh? their pretty good with linux05:23
ryuoOh, that's not what I mean.05:23
lone_rangeroh right that stuff05:23
ryuoyou pay a penalty to mitigate their hardware flaws.05:23
ryuoAMD pays a much lesser cost.05:24
ryuostill needs stuff fixed, but the worst is Intel ony.05:24
lone_rangerryuo: don't fill my head with dreams lol I can't afford a new laptop rightnow05:24
ryuolone_ranger: fair enough. the current generation of entry level Probooks still aren't AMD Ryzen anyway.05:25
ryuoI bought a Bristol Ridge.05:25
lone_rangersince when can you get 32 cores wtf05:25
lone_rangerI'm clearly out of the loop05:25
ryuo32 cores? on what?05:25
lone_rangeron the ryzen05:25
ryuoOh. That might be possible on desktop Ryzen, but isn't on mobile.05:25
ryuoIntel's 8th gen has 8 cores.05:26
ryuoon mobile.05:26
lone_rangersigh, now I just have to get good at paralell programming05:26
ryuoso why do you use Linux?05:26
lone_rangerwell I am a cs student, so when I took a class the focused on it from a historial and os perspective, I was hooked05:27
lone_rangertried to learn batch for a while, no info05:28
lone_rangerbash was much simpler to learn on the other hand05:28
ryuoIt's out there, but BATCH is generally worse.05:28
ryuopart of it is in old DOS documentation.05:28
lone_rangeryeah a big push for me to go to linux was no documentation05:29
lone_rangerI remeber going on a forum to learn more about the filesystem, and it was pretty much all reponses like why??05:29
lone_rangerno the windows file hiearchy in general05:30
ryuo... wow05:30
ryuoyea... unix has a unified file tree.05:30
ryuoWindows.. splits it on a device basis.05:30
lone_rangerthis was trigged by programs not using %appdata% I like everything orgranized, so tried learning and no luck05:30
lone_rangerI remeber being so confident that I knew everything about xp as well, so losing that feeling of control and seeing linux, I was like yeah never going back05:31
lone_rangerat this point in my life, i'm really into operating systems, but as you can tell i'm still learning05:32
ryuoI do a lot of advanced stuff with Ubuntu these days.05:32
ryuoYou can do a lot if you understand Linux pretty well.05:32
ryuoI do manual installs at times due to installer limitations.05:33
ryuoYou can also do that with desktop Ubuntu...05:33
ryuoI tried it out a few months ago.05:33
lone_rangerryuo: do you have lvm snapshots set up?05:33
lone_rangeroh cool didn't know you could do that05:33
ryuoI don't use LVM.05:33
ryuoZFS has snapshots, if you really need them.05:34
ryuoSo does BTRFS.05:34
lone_rangeroh right forgot you had zfs05:34
lone_rangerbsd's had some cuting edge features for a while05:34
ryuoI mean, the main point of LVM back in the day was for situations where you wanted to be able to resize partitions on a whim.05:34
ryuoI'm just not a fan of it. When your drives develop issues, there's a higher probability of losing data.05:35
ryuoif it was a regular partition, you might be able to recover something from a dd copy of the partititon.05:35
ryuoNot so when your data is in LVM.05:36
lone_rangeroh ok, I have no reason to do that so never really experiemented05:36
lone_rangermost of my linux experience is with virtual machines surprisingly05:36
lone_rangerand sandboxing, like chroot05:36
lone_rangeror lxc05:36
ryuoi maxed my probook out with 16G of RAM.05:37
ryuo250GB ssds in a mirror.05:37
lone_rangerwhat do you do with that?05:37
ryuoMostly it's insurance in case one drive abruptly fails.05:38
ryuohave data corruption (ZFS)05:38
ryuoI use ZFS on my servers so I thought i'd try it here too.05:38
lone_rangerare your servers bsd?05:39
ryuoAgain, no.05:39
ryuoI said I use Ubuntu.05:39
ryuoUbuntu Server.05:39
ryuoUbuntu started shipping ZFS with their default kernels some time ago05:39
lone_rangermy bad, just thought you meant ubuntu for desktop stuff05:39
ryuoStarting in xenial05:39
ryuoIt's the basis for my desktops too.05:40
ryuoLinux Mint, specifically.05:40
lone_rangeryou ever think why the linux community dropped gnustep05:41
lone_rangerits still developped but not as popular05:41
ryuowell.. it's based on Objective-C... a language virtually no Linux software ever used.05:41
ryuoExcept gnustep.05:41
lone_rangeryeah, gnustep was big for a while right? even apple got stuff from them05:42
ryuoNo idea.05:42
lone_rangervala's a good idea tho05:42
ryuoObjective-C never saw any serious use outside of Apple crap.05:42
ryuovala... no idea. It's a C# clone, and that's about all I know.05:42
lone_rangerhaving programmed with glib i'd rather they had not used c tbh05:43
ryuolone_ranger: if you can afford it, you can rent a VPS for your endeavors.05:43
lone_rangerobj c would've been better05:43
ryuoI'm not surprised they didn't.05:43
lone_rangerryuo: what do you mean?05:44
ryuolone_ranger: learning?05:44
lone_rangeroh right05:44
ryuolone_ranger: OVH VPS' base offerings are like $3.49 a month.05:44
lone_rangerI actually have some digital ocean credits tbh05:44
ryuoNot incredible, but VPS is better for people that aren't yet skilled enough to handle dedicated.05:45
lone_rangeris there any point tho they are just vm's05:45
ryuoI've started prefering dedicated servers from KimSufi and SoYouStart.05:45
ryuolone_ranger: yes? more bandwidth and a public IP address.05:45
lone_rangerryuo: right the ip acutally makes it usefull05:46
ryuoit can be useful if you're doing web development or similar projects.05:46
ryuoright now i'm exploring a $5.99 a month ARM server.05:46
ryuoSoYouStart offers those, but they are usually sold out.05:47
lone_rangerso I always wonder what web dev means05:47
ryuolone_ranger: broad category.05:47
lone_rangersome people say socket programming, some front end stuff, and some data base05:47
ryuolone_ranger: arguably it's anything that is part of a dynamic web site.05:47
ryuothe front end stuff is one aspect.05:48
ryuothe back end programming is also a thing.05:48
ryuodatabase... not necessarily. that has other things it could be used for.05:48
ryuoBut a standard PHP web host will bundle05:48
ryuoMySQL (database) and PHP (server side scripting)05:48
ryuoweb development used to have nothing to do with sockets, but web sockets changed that05:49
ryuothe only aspect of the web stack that really used sockets directly was the web server05:49
ryuoand, arguably, AJAX.05:49
ryuoerr wait, no, AJAX was just http requests.05:50
lone_rangernot sure what your experience in this area is but, I did a database course, not much relational algebra, so I wonder how many web devs have effient queries05:50
ryuoNo idea. If you ever take a data structures course, you'll realize efficiency isn't everything.05:50
ryuoYou have to look at everything.05:50
lone_rangerbut the hypocrisy is that my upper year course are suuuuper math heavy05:50
ryuoIf your data set is incredibly small, linear search is typically faster.05:51
ryuothe main advantage of linear search is it doesn't impose any constraints on how your data is arranged or structured.05:51
lone_rangeryeah i've done ds05:51
lone_rangerI actually am interested in database, planning to do a project in one by next summer05:52
lone_rangermake a database engine based on a flat file05:52
ryuosounds like SQLite.05:52
lone_rangermore berekly db05:52
ryuome, i'm having to get into web development I think.05:53
ryuoso I have to learn PHP even though it's a dumpster fire. =p05:53
lone_rangerryuo: why php? why not ruby/python etc for the scripting?05:54
lone_rangeror *GASP* perl05:54
ryuolone_ranger: -sigh- It's what the majority use.05:55
ryuoIt's part of why I learned C.05:55
ryuoI've written some of the distribution code that CRUX relies on even.05:55
lone_rangeroh thats cool05:55
ryuoOne of my projects is redesigning pkgutils into a library for scripting access.05:55
ryuoSo, yea, I reason that C is also a dumpster fire in some ways.05:56
ryuoSo how much worse could PHP be?05:56
lone_rangerI don't think so, but then I have much less experience05:56
lone_rangerI've come to the point where I embrace programming multilinualism05:57
ryuolone_ranger: C makes it easy to corrupt data if you're not careful.05:57
ryuoit's an unforgiving language.05:57
lone_rangerc is simple, clean syntax, and lets you do what you want05:58
ryuoit's not like most modern languages that tend to do a lot of hand holding.05:58
lone_rangeri.e ideal for creating an os05:58
lone_rangerso yeah the people that want to use it for everything05:58
lone_rangeridk why05:58
ryuothat was/is me, but it's too slow to develop anything large with it.05:58
lone_rangerlike I was saying, there is a huge benefit to using multiple languages, for its use case05:59
ryuothough i've done a lot of C language problems on hackerrank... lol05:59
lone_rangerits actually pretty simple for me to pick up new languages now06:00
lone_rangerryuo: thats great06:00
lone_rangerI'm still learning c, I will need to learn it inside and out for my interests06:00
lone_rangerso I might do that06:00
ryuoC is a lot harder than I originall knew.06:00
ryuoThe language is "simple", but assumes you know a lot about machine architecture.06:01
lone_rangerryuo: easier to learn than c++06:01
lone_rangerbut then c++ has stl and boost06:01
ryuoC has things like glib, but ...06:01
lone_rangeryeah lol06:01
ryuoI tried Go for awhile.06:02
ryuoIt's basically a marginal improvement upon C.06:02
lone_rangerI was eyeing the lang06:02
ryuoHas some high level features but keeps some C isms I noticed.06:02
ryuocoding patterns I see used in C to overcome shortcomings06:02
ryuoGo has no generics, so it still uses hacks similar to C's use of void* in generic collections.06:02
lone_rangerwell designed by rob pike so thats to be expected06:02
ryuoThe main difference is Go can actually know the type at runtime.06:03
ryuoC cannot.06:03
lone_rangeroh cool06:03
ryuobecause the interface{} type...06:03
ryuoholds the original type information.06:03
lone_rangerI decided to go with erlang and ada for my other systems languages atm06:03
lone_rangeras much as I dislike the syntax of both they have a lot of nice features06:04
ryuojust keep in mind the more spread out you are, the fewer advanced techniques you'll know.06:04
ryuoi've seen a lot of interesting crap from specializing in C.06:04
ryuoshit that never would have occurred to me at one time.06:04
ryuoLike, using modulo or bitwise AND to clamp an integer to an array index range.06:05
lone_rangerryuo: you have a good point, but job wise, I'd have to be very well versed in c, and if I was i'd be irrelevant for other jobs06:06
lone_rangerlots of java shops around06:06
lone_rangerthats neat but I feel not a C thing but a programmer thing06:07
ryuoOr even pool allocators.06:09
ryuolone_ranger: indeed. why do you think i'm trying to find something new?06:10
ryuomy experience with solving problems with C will surely help me as there's less to lean.06:10
lone_rangeroh lol, and yeah i'm learning about those right now so I can create my own dynamic array (vector)06:11
lone_rangerat least slab memory06:11
ryuook, what's a pool allocator?06:11
lone_rangerthats a big question06:12
lone_rangerbut pretty much just creating memory blocks of the same size beforehand06:12
ryuoi've only seen it used as a method for fast allocation of fixed-size data types.06:12
ryuoit's something sometimes used in C to optimize allocation heavy structures like queues.06:13
ryuoyou use malloc only if you have to.06:14
ryuoand deallocation return it to the pool.06:14
lone_rangerryuo: and as for there being less to learn, depends on the lang, but you will definetly have a leg up since you understand the underlying architecture06:16
lone_rangerand believe it or not languages like java can be complicated in their own right06:17
ryuolone_ranger: yea... but PHP is basically my only option around here. I do realize web development can be done with any language, technically. Just PHP has industry wide usage.06:17
ryuoit's just hard to find a good place to start. it's not as easy as C was for me.06:18
lone_rangeri'm not pushing java it was just an example, I understand your situation tho06:19
ryuomy main concerns is learning how to work around PHP's weirdness.06:19
ryuoin the same way i had to workaround C's weirdness.06:19
lone_rangerlike I interned at a company that decied to use java even tho they deal in automotive embedded...06:19
ryuoC gets weird when you get into pointer layers.06:20
ryuoJava... I wonder if the Oracle sales people got to them.06:20
lone_rangerAh no06:20
ryuoi've used my C knowledge in the past to trip up trolls that thought they knew C.06:21
lone_rangerjust the vp of tech is not well, a programmer06:21
ryuolike that auto is a valid C keyword.06:21
ryuoEven though it's virtually never used.06:21
ryuoi once thought of using auto as a macro for a GNU C extension that enables a C++ style type inference.06:22
lone_rangerhave not ecountered it yet tbh, see it in c++ more06:22
ryuouh, yea... its purpose was redefined in newer C++.06:22
ryuoin C, it defines a storage class that's the default for stack variables.06:22
ryuoit serves no other purpose.06:22
ryuoAnd is the default, so it's pretty much a useless keyword.06:22
lone_rangerwhat year is auto, c99?06:23
ryuoYou're thinking of restrict.06:23
ryuoBut most new C99/C11 keywords or types use _s now.06:24
ryuoI heard there's a new C standard in the works.06:25
ryuoNot sure the point myself.06:25
ryuoC11 barely did anything.06:25
lone_rangeroh, learned K&R first, now learning c99 since its the most portable06:25
ryuoactually that's ANSI C.06:25
ryuoC++ doesn't support everything from C99.06:25
ryuothings like designated initializers aren't valid C++.06:26
lone_rangeroh really, I was just following advice from the good folks at ##C06:26
lone_rangerI got both recommendations tbh06:26
ryuowell.. try compiling this with GNU C++. Sec.06:26
ryuoDah fuck. It compiles now?06:28
ryuoSeems C99 features were finally added.06:30
ryuothings like designated initializers for arrays and structs used to be compile errors for C++.06:30
ryuosame with compound literals.06:30
ryuoI bet it doesn't support FAMs though.06:31
ryuo... it does? TIL.06:31
lone_rangerI've been reaching for clang nowadays eh06:31
ryuoflexible array members.06:31
lone_rangeryeah it does thoes06:32
lone_rangerim guessing crux has a clang variant?06:32
lone_rangerah, there's debian clang variant, wonder if ubuntu has one06:33
ryuodon't think so.06:34
ryuodoesn't matter really.06:34
ryuoI only ever used clang for one thing. Compiler testing.06:34
ryuoSee if my C projects were portable across compilers06:34
ryuoIt's OK to use extensions, but I tried to limit myself to ones that both support.06:35
lone_rangerryuo: it was good talking with you but I'm off now, have to finish some work, avoir :)06:37
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cruxbot[opt.git/3.4]: nvidia-sl: fixed libEGL symlink version typo15:47
cruxbot[opt.git/3.4]: nvidia: fixed libEGL symlink version typo15:47
cruxbot[compat-32.git/3.4]: nvidia-sl-32: fixed libEGL symlink version typo15:47
cruxbot[compat-32.git/3.4]: nvidia-32: fixed libEGL symlink version typo15:47
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tilmanibm acquires redhat o_____O19:02
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darfoannouce i saw said redhat was a cyber security company19:18
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dbrookenah, they're a hybrid/multi-cloud provider (whatever that is)
pedjaprivate/public cloud?19:25
pankeriniRIP Red Hat19:25
pedjaI am curious, what do you think will happen with RH as a part of the IBM?19:26
pedjait will be interesting to see what happens with the projects under rh umbrella, like ansible19:27
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pedjatbh, I am surprised the merger even happened. isn't rh hugely profitable?19:30
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ryuopedja: they gave them an offer they couldn't refuse.19:34
pankerini$34 billion is quite a number19:35
pedja'Microsft buys Canonical' i snext, I guess :)19:36
darfoif you can't beat them, absorb them, it's the Borg way19:37
darfoIBM has been contributing a lot of resources to Linux development for a number of years19:38
joacimdont think this will be as bad as when oracle bought sun19:51
dbrookeI was going to say "at least it wasn't Oracle" so I hope IBM are less evil and I think that's probably true19:58
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BrainzmanHi ! I'm currently making a package for the game C:DDA, after compiling and installing the game I need to make a softlink from /usr/share/cataclysm/cataclysm-launcher to /usr/bin/cataclysm. How can I put this in a Pkgfile?20:11
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john_cephalopodaBrainzman: ln -s $PKG/usr/share/cataclysm/cataclysm-launcher $PKG/usr/bin/cataclysm20:13
BrainzmanYeah that what I did, but this create a soft link between /usr/bin and the workdir of the package20:15
BrainzmanWhich end up broken after the install20:15
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joacimthink i had some issues like that before20:25
joacimbut some systems dont support symlinks like that, so i got into the habit of just making a script instead of a symlink, to make sure my habits are more cross platform20:26
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BrainzmanYeah that seem like a better solution thx joacim20:34
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jaegerjohn_cephalopoda, Brainzman: you don't want to use $PKG on both sides of the symlink, only the destination21:11
jaegerotherwise $PKG will be expanded in the final symlink21:11
jaegertry ln -s /usr/share/cataclysm/cataclysm-launcher $PKG/usr/bin/cataclysm21:12
john_cephalopodaHmm, what do I need to do to have the files in my repo displayed in the pkgdb?21:41
john_cephalopodaIt looks like rsync is an issue.21:46
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rmullIBM to buy Red Hat?
pankeriniThey did buy them22:43
ryuoI wonder what this means for CentOS and Fedora.22:46
joacimif there is any change for the community side of things, i hope it is for the better23:00
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