IRC Logs for #crux Monday, 2018-11-12

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joacimI need a third monitor :(01:48
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pedja'Enable/disable DC driver for debugging' <-- dc amdgpu09:03
pedjaI am not really clear what that actually does, tbh :)09:09
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frinnstsupport a toggle?09:17
pedjaah. if DC is on by default for all supported gpus since 4.17, this switch can be used as sort of the fallback in case of issues, I guess?09:40
pedjanot a trustworthy source, apparently, but interesting
pedjaI'll believe it when the patches for it start landing in the kernel repo09:46
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pedjafrinnst, iirc you mentioned once that you watched NatGeo series Mars? if so, is it any good? S2 started10:03
Ergo- anyone who has a clue while the build of nodejs is failing?10:05
pedjaErgo-, there is a nodejs port in opt10:08
Ergo-pedja: i am aware but that comes without nodejs10:08
Ergo-i mean without npm10:08
Ergo-so i wanted to try this one, guess i will just edit the port for npm10:09
pedjajust remove '--without-npm' from it10:10
frinnstpedja: yeah i liked s0110:10
pedjagreat :) added to the playlist. thanks10:10
pedjaRomster, why are you disabling npm in nodejs port, anyway?10:12
Ergo-i just copied it over to my own repo and removed the flag10:13
pedjayup, that's what I did, too. nodejs is kind of useless for me without npm10:14
Ergo-where is the pedja ports repo on the site hmmm10:14
pedjaportdb? never applied to it10:15
pedjamajority of my ports is useless crap no one but me is interested in, anyway :)10:16
Ergo-can i have a peek10:16
Ergo-im curious now10:16
Ergo-hmm i added this to my repo
Ergo-but it still pushes the .tar.gz files11:59
joacimeasier to just not have those files in there12:20
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Romsterbecause it's just used as a library for chromium12:26
Romstermake a npm port with"12:30
Ergo-joacim: ye thats what i ended up doing12:39
joacimi dont think i even have a .gitignore12:59
joacimi always watch git status and git diff before i add, commit, and push tho12:59
pedjaRomster, nah, I am a lazy bastard, I'll just build nodejs with it :)13:04
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Ergo0i submitted my port repo to portdb :)17:04
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Ergo0hmm for some reason i cant sync my ports on my laptop17:16
Anselmowhat sortof error ?17:17
Ergo0nvm it worked, internet was just really fucking with me17:18
Ergo0i got a error at first, had to try 4 times lol17:18
Anselmobut now it works :317:18
ryuoIn the near future i'll be switching my web server to ECDSA certs.17:23
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Ergo0 does this have to do with my kernel version?18:13
Ergo0trying to setup nvidia optimus stuff18:13
jaegerhrmm, haven't seen that one. I think it should work with 4.14.40, though18:19
jaegerI don't see it on a system with 4.14.7118:23
Ergo0yee, i assume its a kernel thing18:28
Ergo0maybe a forgotten module, but then again nvidia prop isnt even a option when compiling it right18:28
Anselmoyou might need to specify things to make the nvidia stuff happy later18:29
jaegeryeah, no proprietary nvidia stuff in the kernel18:29
Anselmobut its not something I know much about,18:29
frinnstErgo0: you'll need to fix httpup for your repo18:29
AnselmoI feel like the gentoo wiki probably has a good walkthrough of some of this stuff18:29
joacimyeah i tend to go to the gentoo wiki when im looking for certain kernel configs for certain stuff18:30
Ergo0frinnst: ohhh , i thought just git would be fine18:30
Ergo0i can try and setup httpup tho18:30
Ergo0should i send you another mail when its done?18:30
frinnstyeah just generate the repo and commit it, then push18:30
frinnstcheck out how the other people did it on the portdb18:31
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Ergo0frinnst: i sure, will do later tonight18:38
Ergo0thanks for getting back to me quickly :)18:38
frinnstno worries18:38
jaegerErgo0: ports understands git repos through the git ports driver, but the portdb doesn't currently18:41
Ergo0is that planned to be added later?18:42
Ergo0just curious18:42
Ergo0i dont mind setting up http18:42
jaegerIt's on my list to investigate but no official plan yet18:44
Ergo0ayee cool18:46
Ergo0oh right, i assume subscribing to the mailing list would be useful huh18:47
Ergo0i imagine thats where news goes first right18:52
joacimyeah a lot of stuff like renamed ports and new dependencies18:54
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Ergo0hmm odd, i upgraded to latest kernel19:05
Ergo0but i still get the same error19:06
Ergo0i tried it with su and without su19:06
frinnsta 5 year old out-of-tree driver? i'd be surprised if it compiled19:23
Ergo0frinnst: its 5 y/o ? lol19:23
frinnst0.8 was released on dec 5 201319:24
Ergo0i think this is what is recommended on the crux wiki tho for setting up nvidia with optimus19:24
frinnstis it still needed?19:24
Ergo0i think both the bumblebee ports in contrib and kris have it as a dep19:26
Ergo0romsters port doesnt tho19:26
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Ergo0sorry for being a bother, not sure if its my system or the packages that are broken19:40
Ergo0i assume the first lol19:40
ryuoErgo0: i doubt it's due to your build environment. that kind of errors means either a header isn't being included or the symbol was removed.19:42
ryuoErgo0: what's your kernel version?19:45
Ergo0latest stable19:46
Ergo0i will try a later version of the package19:46
ryuoi'll see what i can dig out of the kernel source.19:46
ryuoHm. Present in 4.919:48
ryuoLet's check 4.1419:48
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Ergo0hmm i tried using the latest build from the virtualGL sourceforve and it gives the same error19:49
Ergo0maybe its my kernel config?19:50
Ergo0thats my kernel config19:51
ryuoErgo0: doubt it. it should be in your kernel headers.19:51
Ergo0 anyway for me to double check?19:51
ryuoNot unless you know C.19:51
Ergo0i dont know coding lol19:52
ryuoBut I do.19:52
ryuoHm. Seems this macro/inline function is being used in kernel still.19:52
ryuoSo why is bbswitch having this compile error?19:53
Ergo0i dont think its bbswitch19:53
Ergo0since its not a depend on Romster 's bumblebee port19:53
Ergo0oh well now that I tagged you, there seems to be a problem with your port regarding the source for virtualGL, seems like they changed the download tree or whatevery ou would call it19:54
ryuoI don't maintain any CRUX ports. I just happen to know how to patch most C code issues.19:54
ryuoSeriously? It's that simple?19:55
Ergo0ryuo: what? you figured it out?19:56
ryuoIt's the kernel headers. They did some restructuring changes.19:56
ryuoLet me give you a patch to try.19:56
ryuoErgo0: <19:58
Ergo0how uhm would i use that19:58
ryuoedit the port to apply the patch.19:58
Ergo0the bumblebee port or the bbswitch port?19:59
Ergo0i was trying romsters bumblbee port which doesnt include bbswitch19:59
Ergo0aye will try19:59
ryuoI spent 8 years fixing this kind of crap for Frugalware.19:59
Ergo0so i make a .c file in the bbswtich ports dir right19:59
Ergo0then make it execute that patch20:00
ryuono, you apply the patch from the source directory before trying to run cmake or w/e.20:00
ryuoif it works, you can bug the maintainer to include it.20:00
pedjaare you talking about bbswitch?20:00
pedjait builds fine on my 4.19.120:01
Ergo0where you using the contrib bumblee port?20:01
pedjano, the source tarball20:01
Ergo0from the bbswitch git ?20:02
pedjalet me try the port20:02
pedjayup, contrib/bbswitch builds fine too20:03
Ergo0same problem compiling from tarball20:03
ryuook. seems i was mistaken.20:04
pedjahm 'cc1: some warnings being treated as errors' <-- I didn't get that20:04
ryuoit builds on my ubuntu kernel just fine. 4.15.x20:04
Ergo0i may have figured out the issue20:04
ryuoErgo0: it may be your kernel headers are borked then.20:04
ryuoI was thinking the kernel's APIs got shuffled around,20:05
ryuoWouldn't be the first time I had to swap includes around.20:05
Ergo0might be my modprobe.d stuff messing it up20:05
ryuowhat does modprobe have to do with compile a kernel module?20:05
Ergo0because the kernel module for nvidia is currently not loaded20:06
ryuoSo? I don't even use NVIDIA.20:06
Ergo0which might be because of that error20:06
ryuoIt compiled here.20:06
Ergo0I dont know, im just spitballing lol20:06
ryuoSo, something is up with the kernel headers.20:06
Ergo0brb, gonna reboot20:06
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ergo0the kernel module for nvidia is still not being loaded20:09
pedjano nvidia in lsmod output?20:14
ergo0and if you look here, it seems like the kernel module is not being loaded20:15
ryuodid you forget to use depmod?20:15
ryuodepmod -a20:16
ergo0 seems like dragons be here20:17
ryuoyou can't load kernel modules until depmod has been run.20:18
ergo0so after doing that i should reboot again20:18
ryuoor try modprobing nvidia20:18
ergo0ah that worked20:19
ryuowhether it gets loaded on reboot is another matter.20:19
pedjanvidia-modprobe should take care of that20:19
pedjaemphasis on "should" :)20:20
ryuoi would hope so, but it's still something i remember needing to do.20:20
ryuoit also depends on how the port was installed.20:20
pedjaI modprobe nvidia-uvm on every reboot20:20
ryuonot everything runs the post install scripts.20:20
ergo0i just used prt-get depinst20:20
ergo0i also dont see a postinstall scripts in opt/nvidia20:20
ryuoit may not exist, but i can't be sure.20:21
pedjathere is no need for one20:21
ryuoi love my AMDGPU though. ;)20:21
ryuothe makefile runs modprobe?20:21
ergo0yee i have a amdgpu on my desktop20:21
ergo0works fantastic20:21
pedjawhich one you have?20:21
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ergo0my desktop has a r9 29020:21
ergo0man fuck nvidia20:21
ergo0why is this so difficult lol20:22
ryuoMe? Just what's built into my bristol ridge laptop APU.20:22
ryuoergo0: it isn't... for normies.20:22
ryuoergo0: like Ubuntu users.20:22
ryuoAMD A10-9620P RADEON R5, 10 COMPUTE CORES 4C+6G20:23
ryuo<3 ProBook 455 G520:24
jaegeryou should not need to manually load any modules, bbswitch and bumblebeed take care of that for you20:24
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jaegerfor example:
jaegerergo0: did you do something silly like replace headers in /usr/include with some from the kernel source, maybe?20:30
ergo0jaeger: nopeee20:30
ergo0unless it happened on accident20:31
ergo0hmm does this look allright?20:31
jaegerIt looks like nvidia is loaded20:31
ergo0yee it is loaded20:32
ergo0i just cant install bbswitch20:32
jaeger <-- I'm not able to reproduce that error20:33
jaeger if you want to try a prebuilt package20:34
ryuojaeger: i'm starting to think crux could use a kernel package to help with producing consistent builds.20:34
jaegerMaybe so20:35
jaegerI've considered it repeatedly at least for having a generic config20:35
ryuoi'll try putting something together later, maybe someone can try putting it in opt or contrib.20:36
ergo0seems like ints installed now?20:36
ergo0ryuo: do you use crux btw? or just ubuntu now?20:36
ryuoergo0: ubuntu more or less. why? i can still build kernels though.20:37
ergo0ohh you seem to know the distro well, so i was just curious20:37
ryuoi was a user a long time ago.20:37
ryuoand most of what I know is generic.20:37
ergo0hold up, gonna try something out20:38
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ryuoi've noticed programmers seem to be rare around these parts.20:39
Ergo0this distro irc?20:39
ryuoEh, at least for CRUX.20:39
Ergo0im a digital media and culture studies dude lol20:40
Ergo0lets see if i can close my terminal without disconnecting from irc20:40
Ergo0that worked20:41
ryuoI see.20:41
Ergo0sorry lol20:41
ryuothere's one breed of developer that seems to be the most feared.20:42
Ergo0which iss?20:42
ryuoweb developers. just ask frinnst. =p20:42
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ryuomost of them have no technical background, so hilarity ensues if they try to touch anything IT related.20:43
Ergo0im gonna pick up webdev stuff20:43
Ergo0seems like fun20:44
ryuoI actually have a form of IT experience, so...20:45
ryuocurrently working on getting my new dedicated server configured.20:45
Ergo0i actually dont have any practical reason to be on linux lol20:47
ryuowebdev gives you a reason.20:47
ryuoMost of what you do takes place on servers. Guess what most of them run?20:47
Ergo0i used to do webdev school in uni like 3 years ago20:47
Ergo02 years i guess20:48
Ergo0but i dropped out to go do digital media and culture studies20:48
Ergo0yee i am aware20:48
Ergo0main reason for me to switch was open source, free, way more control, ricing and fuck windows updates20:48
Ergo0how i ended up on crux, i dont know lol20:48
ryuoIt sounds like you'd be happier with Linux Mint.20:49
jaegertried bbswitch on a system with linux 4.19 (though not 4.19.1), still built fine there20:49
Ergo0ryuo: nah i tried that20:50
Ergo0i really  dont like debian20:50
Ergo0tried arch, but i didnt like systemd20:50
Ergo0tried void but i didnt like the people in their irc20:50
ryuoSounds like me circa 2008.20:50
ryuoI eventually went back to Ubuntu after tiring of channel surfing.20:51
john_cephalopodaErgo0: What's your primary GPU?20:51
Ergo0also outside of this problem which i apparently cant solve , crux has been great for me20:51
john_cephalopodaIntel Haswell?20:51
Ergo0john_cephalopoda: the igpu of my 6500HQ20:51
ryuoErgo0: whenever you're due for an upgrade, perhaps AMD would be viable.20:51
ryuoI bought a ProBook 455 G5 this year.20:52
Ergo0my next laptop is prolly gonna be one without a dgpu20:52
Ergo0rather have something thin and light20:52
ryuoAMD Ryzen has taken off in that area.20:52
Ergo0im prolly gonna buy a used hp elitebook folio or something20:52
Ergo0ryuo: as long as it can play overwatch20:52
Ergo0that would be super good20:52
ryuoI don't game, so I don't know.20:52
joacimi mostly just play doom on my laptop20:53
john_cephalopodaErgo0: I've been told that Haswell is pretty good already and the nvidia 3d accelerator won't bring me much advantage at a higher energy usage. So using that is probably not really productive anyway.20:53
joacimthat kind of game works well enough with the trackpoint =)20:53
ryuojoacim: heh. the HP elitebooks with AMD Ryzen already launched.20:53
Ergo0lolll, i dont think my igpu will be able to play OW20:53
Ergo0i could play it on my 960m just fine tho20:54
jaegerFrom the lspci output you pasted earlier your system looks similar to the laptop I'm using20:54
jaegerintel igpu, nvidia 3d controller20:54
jaegerIt all works well for me, for what that's worth20:54
Ergo0i have no clue waht is going on20:54
Ergo0is there something i can use to fix my kernel headers?20:54
ryuoNo idea. I'd say nuke it from orbit to be sure.20:54
ryuoErgo0: people generally swear by thinkpads as being the best Linux laptop.20:56
Ergo0fuck thinkpads20:56
Ergo0they look ugl20:56
Ergo0dont ban me20:57
ryuoyea... they always prioritized functionality...20:57
ryuoX200 was pretty damn good for its time.20:57
jaegerI used an x220 for a few years, it was rock solid20:58
ryuoI still have an X200 but I only use it for portable jobs around the house now.20:59
ryuoMeltdown pretty much ruined it for anything else.20:59
ryuoIt's too old to receive updates.20:59
Ergo0what the21:00
Ergo0ryzen laptops are super cheap21:00
ryuoDefine cheap.21:00
Ergo0cheap compared to their nvidia counterparts unless im getting the specs wrong21:00
ryuoAMD Ryzen is a significant upgrade compared to previous AMD cpus.21:01
ryuoI was following the models for awhile.21:01
ryuoWhat are you looking for?21:01
ryuoGigabit ethernet was a feature that eliminated most of them from my list.21:02
joacimi'll be keeping my t420 for a while longer, unless a potential job decides i should get a new laptop21:03
Ergo0only thing i want is be able to play OW at like 60fps21:03
ryuoI frankly consider Dell, Lenovo, and HP business hardware to be the best choice for longterm use.21:03
ryuoErgo0: there's an ASUS ROG with a desktop Ryzen.21:03
Ergo0nahhh fuck that21:03
ryuoIt's 8 cores.21:04
Ergo0also thin and light21:04
ryuoWell, it's not light.21:04
Ergo060fps at 720p21:04
Ergo0would be fine as well lol21:04
jaegerone thing to consider is there's no support currently for vulkan with optimus so you won't be able to use wine with dxvk for example to play OW21:04
Ergo0jaeger: noooooooooooooooo21:05
Ergo0all this effort for no reason lol21:05
ryuoErgo0: Linux support for Ryzen is still a WIP.21:05
jaegerSorry :/ Maybe that'll change in the future21:05
jaegerErgo0: with that said, it *might* work with wine-pba21:05
ryuoYou need the latest kernel and such for it to work at all.21:05
jaegerjust not dxvk21:05
Ergo0ryuo: i would use latest kernel anyways21:05
Ergo0its fine, i will just use my igpu to play games21:05
ryuoi assume you don't care about serviceability.21:06
jaegerI've not tried OW, but WoW works well on this laptop using wine-pba21:06
ryuoany brand preferences?21:06
Ergo0what gpu you gott21:06
Ergo0ryuo: nope not at all21:06
Ergo0i have bad experiences with acer tho21:06
Ergo0fuck their build quality21:06
jaegerMX150 in this thing... your 960M is more powerful than this one21:06
Ergo0well sadly i cant use my 960m yet :(21:07
ryuoI had a similar experience with HP consumer. I've been happy with HP business.21:07
ryuoThat was 10 years ago.21:07
ryuoTrouble is business machines are typically boring.21:07
jaegeryeah, but I'm trying to say that if you figure out what's gone wrong on your system, it might work21:07
Ergo0jaeger: yee i guess thats true21:08
Ergo0i really wonder how i could possiblly fix this tho21:08
Ergo0i dont even know waht the cause is21:08
jaegerNo idea... hard to guess since I can't reproduce your build error here21:09
jaegerDid you try my bbswitch package?21:09
jaegeralso, have you updated everything on your system since installing?21:12
Ergo0jaeger: nope not yet21:19
Ergo0and everything execpt keyutils and lvm221:19
Ergo0since those for some reason wont update21:19
ryuoErgo0: that the kind of stuff you're looking for?21:20
Ergo0i dont see it in your ports repo jaeger21:20
jaegerwon't update how?21:20
jaegerI linked it here earlier21:21
Ergo0i did try the one you send me earlier21:21
Ergo0and it installed as well21:21
jaegerOK, then what?21:21
Ergo0its installed21:22
jaegerOK, did you test? :)21:22
Ergo0ryuo: that looks great21:22
Ergo0jaeger: not yet21:22
Ergo0lemme try21:22
jaegerAt some point, pastebin your keyutils and lvm2 errors, maybe they're related21:23
ryuoErgo0: if you're going to buy soon, AMD Ryzen is likely the best value at the moment. No idea how it would handle OW though.21:24
Ergo0yeee i was about to look into that21:24
joacimgot a feeling ryuo owns amd stock =)21:24
Ergo0both of those things that were said21:24
ryuoPlus it's less suspectible to the speculative execution crap.21:24
Anselmojust invest in sledgehammers21:25
Anselmoso as to smash all the computers at some near date. . .21:25
Ergo0jaeger: hmmmm
ryuoErgo0: :D21:25
ryuoImmune to 2 out of 5.21:25
ryuol1tf and meltdown21:26
Ergo0that was the wrong one , hold up21:26
Ergo0is that goood?21:26
Anselmoits better than a lot of intel's stuff . . .21:27
Anselmowhich is relatively speaking quite good :P21:27
Ergo0jaeger: IT WORKSSS21:28
Ergo0i installed primus instead of the other thing21:28
jaegergood, that's some progress at least21:29
Ergo0now i just have to compile wine and see lol21:29
Ergo0is virtualgl better then primus?21:29
jaegerNo idea there, I use primus and it works21:30
Ergo0ayee cool21:31
joacimi remember people talked about dx12 being able to spread the load across gpus. was that a big fat lie?21:34
Ergo0im not sure21:36
Ergo0it does seem like vulkan is doing well tho21:36
pedjajoacim, isn't SLI basically dead?21:37
Ergo0and yee i think so as well21:37
Ergo0you can still use dual gpu i think but nvidia killed support for sli21:37
joacimthere is support for dual card sli, but i doubt there will be much of a future for it in video games21:37
pedjatoo much work for small percentage of usage21:38
jaegerYeah, I think SLi is basically gone at this point but NVlink is much better (tm)21:38
pedjaSLI mk.2 :) ?21:38
joacimamd tried to push crossfire with their rx 48021:39
Ergo0i wonder how long compiling wine will take on my i5 6600hq21:39
joacimbut i dont see crossfire used much either21:39
Ergo0or whatever my cpu is21:39
Ergo0joacim: same, then again dual gpu is kind of a waste21:39
Ergo0for gaming atleast21:39
pedjaamd for graphics, nvidia for cuda compute :)21:39
pedjaor gpu passthrough21:40
Ergo0amd works well for gpu passthrough as well21:40
pedjawasn't their an issue with Vega gpu basically freezing, so the only way out was reboot?21:41
jaegerErgo0: I've no idea how regular wine or wine-staging handle OW, but if you decide to check out PBA, there's a port for it:
Ergo0jaeger: thankss21:41
Ergo0im trying to make my lutris port work21:41
Ergo0but it seems like its still missing some stuff21:41
Ergo0jaeger: its super great aat using different wines etc21:42
Ergo0you should check it out sometime21:42
jaegerI've looked at it. Neat idea but I've not really needed it so far21:42
pedjaI've tried to use fusion360 with wine. didn't go so well :)21:44
Ergo0why does wine-staging need llvm721:45
Ergo0pedja: try with dxvk :)21:46
Ergo0its magic21:46
pedjathat was the idea, but it won't install21:46
pedjaonline installer hangs forever21:47
Ergo0hmmm thats odd21:47
Ergo0doesnt look to great on winehq21:48
pedjayeah. so I installed it on a Win10 laptop, so I can play with it21:48
pedjahaven't tried yet to rdp to it21:49
Ergo0ayee makes sense21:49
pedjafrinnst, any issues with xrdp and Win10 that you are aware of? or you rdp only to Windows servers?21:52
Ergo0well boys, im gonna go back home from my friends place21:53
Ergo0going back to my trusty pc with my r9 29021:53
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pedjaVMWorld Europe is in Barcelona. nice21:56
joacimthe back of that card looks a bit nasty21:57
joacimis that aircon damage?21:57
frinnstpedja: only servers21:58
frinnstbut I suspect the issues I had with 2016 are also in win1021:59
joacimthis has some green on it21:59
pedjadidn't MS introduce a new version of RDP in Win10, or something like that?22:00
joacimi know they introduced a new client22:00
frinnst2016=older win1022:00
pedjaI wonder what, apart from wifi, will MS update break on that laptop this time, it's been a while22:02
frinnstzip files?22:03
joacimif they fix all the bugs22:06
joacimwill it still be windows?22:06
pedjaholy shit, that's...kind of hilarious, tbh22:07
jaegerreminds me of EVE Online deleting your boot.ini22:08
jaegerman, that was a long time ago22:09
joacimi dont know what they were thinking there22:09
joacimdidnt happen to me at least22:09
jaegerUndoubtedly they weren't thinking, just a mistake22:10
jaegerNot enough QA testing, etc.22:10
joacimthey choked their players internet connection once too22:10
joacimfrom including a torrent client in the launcher22:10
joacimwasted peoples'data caps22:11
jaegeroops, heh22:12
pedjaMS, Nvidia and now even AMD are pushing Cloud Gaming. how feasible is that?22:12
joacimsounds like the good old days of door games22:12
pedjaI understand why Nvidia and AMD, they'd love to sell expensive racks of GPUs to DCs. but MS?22:14
frinnstI still dont understand how they will/have solve(d) latency22:15
pedjathat's another issue. how many people have bandwidth required for something like that?22:16
frinnstpied piper will solve it22:16
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Ergo-back on my trusty pc22:21
joacimpedja: for ms it would be more revenue from azure i guess22:21
joacimand licenses for their other technologies22:21
pedjathat makes sense22:26
Ergo-lol i accidently removed the input bar22:27
Ergo-i meant to hide the thing thats above that22:27
abenzcloud gaming eh?22:28
abenzI wonder if the guy who coined this term, cloud, when talking about "put your stuff in our server", knew it would take off like this..22:28
ryuosilently overwriting files?22:29
ryuoI guess Microsoft wanted to copy that tradition of TAR.22:29
pedjainteresting take on desktop environment
pedjaif articles on the site are to be believed, the plan is to reach feature parity with Xorg before 1.0 :)22:34
pedjathe last time I bothered to check, wayland was still far from that22:36
joacimmost interesting thing for me is cave story22:47
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