IRC Logs for #crux Sunday, 2019-01-13

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joacim"We’re getting faster hardware that runs slower software with the same features"13:44
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john_cephalopodajoacim: More features, but useless ones.13:47
joacimwhich are the features?13:49
john_cephalopodaDiffers from tool to tool.13:50
john_cephalopodaWord editors used to be pretty slim and fast. Now you can integrate all kinds of multimedia elements and scripts and stuff.13:51
joacimscripts and stuff would be macros?13:51
joacimhad that for two decades13:51
john_cephalopodajoacim: More sophisticated.13:51
joacimi can remember having videos in power point presentations for a very long time too13:51
joacimand why are word applications slow when you simply edit text and format paragraphs?13:52
joacimno fancy features13:52
john_cephalopodaMicrosoft Word has a 10 second startup animation.13:52
joacimi remember my first laptop. bought that with 2GB RAM because virtual machines. a year later i didn't need virtual machines anymore. another year or so the machine had become so slow and sluggish from running out of ram13:54
joacimthe software had gained no new features13:54
joacimit just became more bloated13:54
joacimwhen i bought it. 2GB was enough to run an entire other OS with application at the same time13:55
joacimat the end of its life span I had to upgrade just to keep a browser running in the background while video was playing in another application13:55
john_cephalopodaI don't think that bloat happens without features added.13:56
joacimso which are the features?13:56
john_cephalopodaI'm sure they added _something_, which you don't use.13:56
john_cephalopodaMaybe support for spellchecking in 150 languages. Maybe support for 30 new video formats.13:56
joacimspellchecking in 150 languages have been around since the 90s13:57
joacimat least13:57
joacimthe 30 new video formats isn't what makes ram requirements balloon like they did13:57
john_cephalopodaLast time I used Word, it didn't support a lot of languages and the spell checking was really rudimentary. Didn't know a word? Squiggly line.13:58
joacimmpv isn't massive, and that can play a lot of different formats, but it is still smaller than the built in applications for viewing video in many operating systems13:58
john_cephalopodaNowadays it is really sophisticated and tells me when sentence structures look strange.13:58
joacimand those only support a small selection of format13:58
joacimspell one word wrong in Word, and you can feel the stuttering13:59
joacimthats just for a single word13:59
joacim95 was not like that. sure it wasn't sophisticated, but it would not feel sluggish at all on current software14:00
joacimit feels more like they didn't even try to make their sophistication fast and efficient.14:01
joacimthere is never a reason to defend slow and sluggish software. a chat client doesn't need 300-500 MB of RAM when the alternative it replaced could run on an Apple II14:03
joacimthe improvement in workflow that some of these applications have does not justify the increased requirements. there is nothing about the concept of making a collection of invite only chat channels that requires a client that heavy14:05
joacimi've had chat clients before with embedded video and pictures before, that never was slow and sluggish14:05
john_cephalopodaNow they use Electron, which is chrome.14:07
joacimfeels like they decided to release the quick and dirty concept application as a finished product14:07
joacimlike those concepts designers used to make with adobe air and flash14:08
john_cephalopodaThey build a web application and because they are too lazy to write a proper client for PC, they just take their web UI and package it in a bloated browser as "native app".14:08
joacimThey post "We ❤️ Open Source / Free Software" on their website, but all they did was take free software and make a mostly closed environment service that restrict your ability to make your own client14:10
john_cephalopodajoacim: Are you talking about any specific software?14:13
joacimtendencies and trends14:14
john_cephalopodaMatrix/ is pretty cool. There are a dozen different implementations - BUT none of those supports calls.14:14
john_cephalopodaWhich is the #1 reason why I'm using Riot/Matrix.14:14
john_cephalopodaIf I want to text, I use XMPP14:15
joacimseen lots of text editors too that have been very slow and sluggish14:17
joacimbefore electron became a thing14:17
joacimthose "focus" type of text editors that became popular ~10 years ago14:17
john_cephalopodaHuh? I never experienced a slow text editor.14:17
john_cephalopodaI remember that 4 years ago or so, Atom started appearing.14:18
john_cephalopodaIt is a text editor on top of a web browser.14:19
joacimcan configure VIM to only display the current paragraph, and that is fast, but a lot of those focus-mode editors always felt very slow. also came with features that did nothing to improve your workflow. like CRT modes to make it look like an old CRT14:19
john_cephalopodaI have no idea how somebody could have thought that it's a good idea.14:19
john_cephalopoda(^ Atom )14:19
joacimi tried sublime a few times on my old system. I could feel how slow that was14:19
joacimcould also hear the fans on my laptop ramp up14:20
john_cephalopodaI've only used relatively basic text editors. My text editors of choice are nano and geany.14:20
joacimthose arent the bloatiest these days =)14:20
john_cephalopodaThey are not bloaty at all. :þ14:21
joacimgeany lets you use a mouse. thats bloat :314:21
joacimjoking ofc14:21
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john_cephalopodaHmm, unfortunately there are simply no good alternatives to the bloaty stuff.14:39
joacimpronounced "Zigh"14:50
joacimpronounciation guides for project names seems fairly lame too14:51
joacimpeople have different language and dialect backgrounds. just let them pronounce things in peace14:52
jaegermy personal favorite is when people refer to vi as "six"14:57
jaegerI don't even try to correct it because it's amusing, at least14:57
joacimi dont think i would know what they were talking about at all if I heard that =()15:08
joacimwould have to ask them to show me15:08
Anselmoha ha ha ha15:08
jaegerIt certainly took me a while to connect the first time15:08
jaegerAnd I think I've only ever heard it 2 or 3 times total, so not a common thing15:08
joacimmost memorable one I heard was "quack" instead of "quake" back during the 90s15:08
AnselmoI like 'squeal'15:09
Anselmofor sql :315:09
joacimat least that name fits =)15:09
john_cephalopodaWell, it was SEQUEL once, but then there was a name collision and they had to go with SQL.15:11
Anselmobut most people I've known say either 'sequel', or 'es queue, ell'15:12
pedjaSQL is an acronym, so that looks right :)15:18
john_cephalopodaI say 'es queue, ell'.15:19
pedjaSQL (ɛsˌkjuːˈɛl) (using IPA)15:20
pedjaas for software bloat, it depends, imho15:38
pedjapolkit/consolekit using full blown js interpreter for configuration parsing is insane, for instance15:40
pedjaotoh, having image editor/3d software/whatever application with quite a few features is nice, altough that could be considered 'bloat'15:43
pedja'I have no use for it therefore it's bloat' is not a very useful metric, imho15:48
pedjais libreoffice bloated if I only use writer part of it but have to install all of it? perhaps15:52
joacimpedja: I think how I use it, useful features isn't bloat, but software getting heavier for no reason and no added utility is bloat15:53
joacimalso something that might be useful, but implemented in the wrong application might also be bloat i think15:53
pedjahow do you define 'no reason/no added ability' ?15:53
joacimno reason15:53
joacimthats how i define it15:54
joacimheavier for the sake of being heavier15:54
pedjaany examples?15:54
joacimimagine notepad getting more and more demanding over time15:54
joacimbut it still only has basic text wrapping and no additional features15:55
joacimheavier, but no new features, and nothing people actually use15:55
joacimwonder how modern day notepad would run on an old system15:55
pedjahow does it get more demanding? it's using electron :) ?15:55
joacimi dont know15:56
joacimi didnt say notepad is heavier15:56
joacimi said imagine it getting heavier15:56
pedja'heavier' in what sense?15:57
joacimthen you have all those appliocations (dont blame electron) that are horribly slow and inefficient, even tho they're just notepad clones that only display the paragraph the input marker is currently on15:57
joacimmore ram15:57
joacimmore cpu15:57
joacimfeels slow and sluggish15:57
joacimvery noticeable input latency15:58
pedjaon a modern system?16:01
pedjawhen I use modern software on this old system, I don't expect it to behave like it would on something more powerful, that would be silly16:04
pedjapeople keep saying 'chrome is faster then firefox'. not on my machine16:05
pedjatbh, I don't really care if notepad clones or whatever are slow, sluggish etc. because I don't use them16:08
pedjaI can only rant about stuff I actually use :)16:09
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joacimi dont want to be forced to upgrade to run software that is no different from software i already have been running for years16:25
pedjaif it's no different, why would you be forced to upgrade? just take the speed penalty, like the rest of us :)16:38
pedjaor just don't use it anymore, problem solved16:41
joacimi dont want to turn into some crazy that never use anything new, that insist on using an amiga, even tho it might be better for me16:41
pedjawhy would you care what people think?16:42
joacimbad enough that the world became outlook and office 36516:42
pedjaenterprise world?16:43
joacimsometimes i want to talk to people. that or some german tourist discover my little amiga hut in the middle of Finnmark16:43
pedjaI don't see the connection between office/outlook and socializing16:44
joacimhaving a job, getting things done16:45
pedjaah, that16:45
joacim"oh that document is on sharepoint, just use all these share features with word and you can edit it!"16:45
joacimi'm not enterprising enough to make money on my own16:47
joacimif i was, i wouldn't have to care16:47
pedjame neither. yet another set of skills I don't have16:48
joacimat least with jobs, they give you the computers you need to get shit done16:50
pedjato mis-quote Hamster, 'some people are generals, some people are soldiers'16:50
joacimi still feel like i support and enable the reality that I don't want to be part of by using it tho16:50
pedjathink of it as a challenge16:52
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tilmanjoacim: you're not really located in finnmark, are you?16:56
joacimbut if i were to become a hermit, that's where i'd like to move =)16:57
joacimi am applying for work up there tho16:57
tilmanherding reindeers?16:59
pedjaiirc, couple I know was supposed to go work there. her as a teacher, him as a sysadmin or something.16:59
pedjaunfortunately, that never happened17:00
joacimprobably no herding for me. i guess you might call sysadmin work that17:00
joacimlike herding cats maybe17:00
pedjaherding cattle these days, devops and all that jazz :)17:01
joacimmy grandmother came from finnmark. i think her family had a farm with sheep17:02
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saptechI used to herd  cattle17:58
saptechat the stockyards :)17:58
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