IRC Logs for #crux Monday, 2019-04-29

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jaegerIt won't, we're not using system-auth00:24
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Guest59207where can I download the latest 3.5 iso?08:23
frinnsthttps://lists.crux.nu/pipermail/crux/2019-April/006218.html08:41
frinnsthttps://crux.ninja/crux/crux-3.5-rc0.iso08:41
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john_cephalopodaOh, 3.5 is in the works already?10:06
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frinnsthttps://shop.oracle.com/apex/f?p=DSTORE:2:::NO:RIR,RP,2:PROD_HIER_ID:12377548824987153259438513:08
frinnstlol?13:08
ryuoThe acronym for oracle is still true.13:28
ryuoOne Rich Asshole Called Larry Elison13:28
ryuo(:13:29
dbrookethe price range filter on their main software page sorts alphabetically on the low value of the range which is kind of useless13:32
dbrookeI was just curious how astronomically high priced their most expensive thing might be13:33
pedja'call for quote' is code for 'contact us so we can figure out how much money we can extract from you'13:43
stenurI see kernel update to 4.19.37 on my server (still AlpineLinux), so maybe my report of yesterday is only true for incremental patch kernel.14:26
stenurI downloaded all from .34 (works) to .37 (not) again, i stand my assertion!14:27
stenuri think i have to download all 37 and unroll that, then get the big single one??14:28
stenurAre all of you using the big chunk instead?14:30
stenurI even thought about cloning the kernel via git, shallow clone.14:31
stenurBut i had that a few years ago, before my box could no longer garbage collect it.14:31
stenurWay over a GB, about hmm five years ago..14:32
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dbrooke4.19.37 #1 SMP Sat Apr 27 10:34:46 BST 2019 has been OK here, built from 103201664 Apr 27 08:45 linux-4.19.37.tar.xz14:34
stenurI see.  The big one contains __ip_options_compile symbol indeed!14:37
dbrookeI often skip a few releases, so find it easier just to grab the complete tarball rather than apply several patches14:42
stenurmerde.  the 27-28 incremental one is missing!!14:42
stenurridiculous.  Luckily scripted now, factor I thus does not matter now more.14:45
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jaegerI generally just use the full tarball15:08
pedjaI used kernel incremental patches when I was on dial-up a decade ago. no need for that these days :)15:20
pedjaif you want to give git a good workout, unix history repo is pretty good15:23
stenurHow large is that?  I could not before, now i could, but it will surely blow my download limit!15:25
jaeger4.19.37 is 99MB compressed15:28
stenurOh, i meant Spirelli's history repository.15:29
stenurNice thing about git, especially on spinning disks: you can create a branch without files and check that out, then have all the history, can look at trees, but have only the DB on the disk.  Very nice for backups, too15:31
jaegerah15:31
stenurI have my BSDs and also CRUX ports (in my arena) like so15:31
stenurWell... It was very nice for me here, and still is on the old Acer laptop with hard disk; really :)15:32
pedjastenur, unix history repo? ~1.6Gb15:34
pedjalots of branches in that one15:35
stenurOnly 1.6GB?  Hmm, that would be doable.  But i wonder, my FreeBSD repo has 1.4GB, but does not have it all.15:36
stenurThat makes 200MB for two+ decades and dozens of different Unix versions, then.15:37
stenurAnd 1.4GB for clang :)15:37
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onoderaanyone else here using f2fs?16:16
onodera/etc/rc returns an error when running fsck.f2fs, unless I create a /forcefsck16:17
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jaegerNot I16:38
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tsaophello all17:01
TimB_good evening17:05
jaegerheyo17:21
TimB_I am taking a course to learn SAP in university, today was the first introduction. ..sure looks like fun.. (not)17:24
ryuowhat a SAP.17:25
ryuoD:17:25
TimB_lol17:25
TimB_I think you could know it as an ERP system17:25
tsaopI have read and heard horror stories on SAP17:25
TimB_everybody in the industry can cry a river about sap ;)17:26
tsaopluckily our ERP is more anachronistic than SAP17:26
TimB_I once talked to a high management employee of coca cola germany, she told it was a great change for them but they had the official SAP support set it up entirely17:27
TimB_tsaop: what are you using?17:27
tsaopTimB_: An ERP from a local small company17:29
tsaopit's based on some IBM stuff running on an AS40017:29
john_cephalopodaI heard of a university where the IT department offered writting a system like that SAP thing from scratch, way cheaper than the SAP product.17:29
john_cephalopodaUniversity bought SAP anyway.17:30
TimB_ok, sounds cool17:30
tsaopTimB_: not really, it has been patched toghether a lot of times during the years17:30
TimB_ouch, ok17:30
tsaopalso, the last person who knows how to read its source code is going to retire soon17:30
TimB_john_cephalopoda: crazy :)17:30
tsaopyounger consultant cannot deal with the codebase from what I've heard17:31
stenurI read about Lidl supermarkets in Germany iirc. Spent hundreds of millions of Euro to adapt SAP, then announced they go back to homegrown thing17:31
TimB_stenur: well yeah, that was a crazy story actually17:31
stenurThat is, they paid SAP the money to integrate.  But failed.17:31
TimB_stenur: both sides knew for a hecking long time but nobody that was involved said anything and at some point HQ put an end to the misery17:32
john_cephalopodaHeh, I worked with an ERP before, which had a UI that looked like the Win10 login screen or an android login screen.17:32
stenurTimB_: yes, ..what i heard17:32
TimB_it was a crazy ambitious project and both sides weren't really able to realize it17:32
john_cephalopodaAt least at the login phase. After logging in it looked like a horrible 90s website.17:32
stenurMy first reaction was about ways to create tax savings, actually.17:34
TimB_john_cephalopoda: our prof today told us to disable the login picture entirely for one reason: we use an normal little jpg which doesn't matter. but some companies will put logos or videos there which will slow everything down. the ui looks like it's straigt out of win 98 too :) we don't have the newest license for the cloud based version17:34
TimB_stenur: interesting thought, sure a possibility. I mean whenever such a project fails a lot of people on the side have been able to fill their own pockets, so somebody had a profit for sure..17:35
ryuoTimB_: they're a bunch of dirty pirates? \o/17:35
TimB_ryuo: SAP? can't say for sure but _sure_17:35
TimB_;)17:35
ryuolol17:35
stenurThe number was so immense.  Even for ~10 years.  Was it .. It was about 500.000.000 for seven years.17:36
TimB_the number is right stenur :)17:36
TimB_https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/lidl-cancels-sap-introduction-after-spending-500m-euro-andrea-cravero17:36
stenurInteresting, did not know about same failure for Deutsche Post!  (Not subscribed to any german news thing since 2005, nor looking news.)17:39
TimB_well, news suck anyway.17:41
stenurryuoi: dirty pirates not my thought.  More like hypothetical financial frames of a deal .. and really moving that money along17:43
stenurBut i do not know, actually.  They seem to have 10000 local stores17:45
TimB_well they are a well know supermarket chain here and I think in Europe nowadays as well. The boss is known to be a very cautious man and they had a scandal about video taping the employees in secret not too long ago..17:47
TimB_so.. not the most empathic company if you ask me17:47
tsaopwhat is better in your opinion, LIDL or ALDI?17:48
stenurworld shop. ^_^17:48
TimB_tsaop: amazon ofc17:49
TimB_sorry :P uhm, well, you can put them all in a sack and hit it with a bat, you won't hit "the wrong one"17:49
stenurWell, here ALDI uses "green" electricity, is CO2 neutral17:50
stenurIncreasing number of organic food (or "Bio" as it is called here)17:50
TimB_aldi pressures farmers and other trade partners as well as lidl does, makes no difference if they use "green energy"17:50
stenurYeah.  The trade and its profit margin is a shame.  And destroys life on earth.17:51
stenurMost of us all do at least the latter, in the end17:51
stenurPrince Charles talked about all that already in the 70s.17:52
stenur(I was a kid though)17:52
stenurAnyway, situation has dramatically deteriorated ever since.17:53
stenurBut he is a royal, i just wanted to get him out. :)17:53
stenurAll that is shit.  I mean we now have two dozen sorts of margarine..  But here, all but one come effectively from the same global player.17:54
TimB_right17:55
john_cephalopodaCapitalism is just doing horrible things.17:55
john_cephalopodaAnd law is pretty much the only thing that keeps it in bounds.17:55
john_cephalopodaThen again lobbyism from the industry is influencing politics a lot, which makes the laws.17:56
TimB_john_cephalopoda: I'd say politics need to stop getting paid to do great work for companies and banks is all ;)17:56
stenurThe other one i buy.  Pretty good one, alsan-s.  Not a family though.17:56
TimB_stenur: what do you mean?17:57
joacimlidl tried to open stores in my city17:57
stenurOh.  My margarine. :-)17:57
joacimbut it didnt go well for them17:57
joacimnever seen an aldi17:58
joacimthey can fuck off too17:58
TimB_margarine!=butter :P17:58
stenurYep.17:58
TimB_never settle for the lesser good, choose butter over margarine17:59
stenurOnly rarely, butter and me. I have seen some of those concentration camps.17:59
john_cephalopodajoacim: Walmart tried to open stores in Germany. Didn't go well for them. Only lost money, had to leave :D17:59
john_cephalopodaGlad that I haven't got those here.18:00
ryuo#cruxandanarchists18:00
ryuo<.<18:00
stenurBut sure, lucky cows i thank for.  (Bio-Milch for Muesli etc.)18:00
tsaopis bio really bio or is it just a label?18:01
TimB_tsaop: depends18:01
tsaopin my opinion, the only bio products are the one you make yourself18:01
tsaopif you farm your own vegetables18:01
tsaopbut still, the soil could be contaminated18:01
tsaopthen what18:01
TimB_tsaop: it's not a secured title per se, so you can call anything bio :P18:01
stenurIt is also business now. Some people do good since ever, but placing a Bio label costs enormous money.18:02
TimB_tsaop: then again, if you use the official EU logo for it, you have to be controlled regularly and so on18:02
tsaopTimB_: That's also true18:02
stenurDemeter is pretty strict.18:02
TimB_also, fun question: would you pay the bio price for something that was farmed next to an highway? :P18:03
tsaopTimB_: there are a lot of fruits grown near highways here18:03
tsaopapples, pears, peaches18:03
tsaopetc18:04
stenurYou will never get to the point were people buy bio.18:04
stenurThey just cannot afford it.18:05
tsaopDo americans have "bio"18:05
tsaopor do they just call the stuff "organic"18:05
tsaopnever understood that18:05
TimB_ACTION pokes ryuo with an bio leek 18:06
ryuo>.>18:06
Anselmotypically they seem to use 'organic' or things like that in my experience18:06
TimB_do you have fruit in the U.S.A?18:06
ryuoyes, though some kinds get imported.18:06
ryuoFlorida oranges.18:07
ryuoand others.18:07
TimB_I'd expect 'organic' as a label too18:07
ryuoit is in some  cases.18:07
ryuoUSDA "organic"18:07
tsaopwhat about prices compared to "regular" vegetables?18:08
ryuono idea18:08
AnselmoI feel like sometimes its rather a lot higher18:14
Anselmoor at least, 10s of % occasionally18:14
Anselmoand fewer regular farmers market type places, and not always good prices there either18:15
stenurIn Germany dramatical decrease of farmers, bigger and bigger ones remain18:17
stenurPolitical nonsense.18:17
tsaophere there are a few small farmer from who I try to buy18:18
tsaopprices are indeed higher, but quality is generally better18:18
TimB_how do you keep somebody around as a farmer if they face poverty when they go in pension18:18
tsaopsometimes even during work18:18
stenurEverybody knows about climate change; here there will be heavier rain falls, dry sommers.18:18
tsaopyou are forced to sell at extremely low prices18:18
stenurThat it is.18:18
tsaopalso competition from abroad18:19
tsaopextremely low prices18:19
Anselmowhere is this tsaop ?18:19
stenurEverywhere!18:19
tsaopAnselmo: Italy18:19
Anselmoah hm18:19
tsaopI try to buy local products when it is possible18:19
Anselmobut yes, just to different degress of course stenur, and in different ways somewhat18:20
stenurNot true, Anselmo.18:20
pedjaseveral years back, the price of blueberry was high, so a few farmers made some nice money18:20
stenurThis is a global market.18:20
pedjanow there are a lot of them, the price tanked, almost no one made an decent money18:21
Anselmoehh, yes but there are regional differences18:21
Anselmoits a lot easier to make a living wage in romania than it is in germany or the usa18:22
Anselmoat least if you're exporting to the west or whatever18:22
stenurEven there, so much garlic, Dracula is lost!!18:22
tsaopgarlic is delicious18:23
pedjaI was referring to what happened here in .rs. don't know how is it in other countries18:23
AnselmoACTION eats garlic sandwitch18:23
pedjain a village nearby several families got together and started a bio/organic food production18:24
Anselmommm18:25
stenurAnd i have to eat tomatoes from a glass house with artifical light in Holland!18:25
TimB_stenur: hydroponics is getting better and better and should be used more if you ask me18:25
tsaopAnselmo: when you have a cold, boil water + lemon juice, then add 4 pieces of garlic18:25
pedjaafaik, 80-90% of what they produce is exported to EU :)18:26
tsaopAnselmo: tastes like crap, but works18:26
Anselmohehe, typically I've just had like, lots of lemon tea18:26
stenurYou will surely get your right, TimB_.  As well as meat from the lab.18:26
Anselmobut should remember to garlic18:26
tilmantsaop: "4 pieces" is 4 cloves?18:26
tsaoptilman: yes18:27
tilmano_O18:27
Anselmopedja: hehe, I imagine this is much better money though18:27
tilmanthat seems a lot :D18:27
tsaoptilman: bonus point if you eat the cooked garlic18:27
Anselmosometimes going from romania to germany or whatever it feels like the prices remain the same, but the currency changes so everything is effectively 4x the price :P18:27
TimB_stenur: not sure about the meat. but hydroponics could be way better for the earth as well..18:28
TimB_plus it enables literaly every city around the globe to cultivate stuff locally, which would make exporting not needed18:28
pedjaAnselmo, they found a few partners in EU which deal with the transport, paperwork, permits. they 'just' grow stuff and get paid for it :)18:29
Anselmoehh, light and things still matter, and land is generally always cheaper outside of the city . . .18:29
john_cephalopodaTimB_: I heard about some place in the north where they grow bananas in wood-heated shacks. It's local but not great for the environment. Shipping is probably better.18:30
Anselmogreenhouses and such things have existed since a long time but its still easier to farm where its easier18:30
TimB_eh, idk. I am not planning on entering the business, but it sounds better to cut long ways wherever possible and not spray monsanto poison around everywhere.18:32
stenurTimB_: ok. It is all political, right.  I mean, we know we will have tremendous rainfalls and dry summers, yet nothing happens.  Pleached hedges make a living for so many animals, and insects. They stop the soil from being flooded away.  Prince Charles (sorry!) pushed them already in the 70s, for example.18:32
stenurWe do not have them.  Strong wind, rain falls: up up and away.18:33
stenurPloughing is very bad.  It destroys everything alive.  Still we do it.  We need fertilizer just to overcome that.18:34
stenurA lot!!18:35
TimB_stenur: I don't really get your point? we can still use pleaching without traditional agriculture?18:35
john_cephalopodaTimB_: Mmmh, sweet cancer all over my plants!18:35
pedjaafaik, large parts of agricultural land were sold to uae companies for pennies18:35
TimB_btw, also fun to see how Bayer is swallowing up monsantos purchase :P18:35
john_cephalopodaTimB_: Considering Glyphosate is still allowed in the EU and heated greenhouses are very inefficient, importing from elsewhere doesn't seem like a horrible idea.18:35
stenurMixed planting, no mono cultures.18:36
TimB_john_cephalopoda: I don't think heated greenhouses are state of the art anymore... you can grow almost anything inside a regular building18:37
stenurWe sold feets and brains and noses so cheap to Africa in the 80s that it caused rural exodus and salination and desert expansion there.18:37
stenurCenturies of agriculture, gone in a decade.18:37
john_cephalopodaTimB_: But how much space do you need for that? Can you make food for a family in the area of a one-family house?18:37
stenurNow we pay for the fight against the desert.18:38
TimB_john_cephalopoda: I guess? take an empty business building with 10+ stocks, grow in there18:38
stenurTimB_: there is not point.  It is all wrong.18:38
john_cephalopodaTimB_: How do you bring light in there? Also you have to heat the building. And compensate for the rent that you don't get because you don't rent the building out to businesses.18:38
john_cephalopodaTimB_: Also ventilation is an issue. Don't want mold in an office building.18:39
TimB_john_cephalopoda: electricity, led work now18:39
stenurSlaughter skyscrapers also an old story.  Like: everybody who wants to eat meat etc.  And plugged cow asses to get rid of the Methan in the atmosphere...18:39
john_cephalopodaHonestly, I don't really care for "natural" and "real" stuff. If you can produce meat that tastes just as real one, I'll gladly eat it instead - IF the price is lower.18:40
john_cephalopodaAlso orange juice without oranges, no issue.18:40
TimB_heretics18:40
tsaopwhat about a mosquito burger18:41
TimB_organge juice without oranges?18:41
TimB_what about cockroach milk? :P18:42
john_cephalopodaAlmond milk seems quite nice.18:42
john_cephalopodaThere is an insect burger available in Germany. It's large part soy, but also contains insects.18:43
TimB_which is more expensive than real burger patties :P who buys that?18:44
stenurSeems to become pushed again. Last year or so we saw some industry prices for automatic insect farming at home, for the kitchen18:44
stenurFor example https://utopia.de/livin-farms-insekten-essen-48839/ but not what i meant..18:45
TimB_"superfood" :D18:45
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stenurCannot find it; same thing in https://derstandard.at/2000033440254/Meine-kleine-Insektenfarm18:48
stenurNa ja. Never done that. Except getting stuff in my mouth on the motorbike/bicycle. Sometimes tastes nutty.18:50
TimB_lol, jesus. free biking snacks are great but no18:50
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onoderadoes anyone have the 3.5 gcc-fortran for me19:43
onoderaa package?19:44
TimB_onodera: it's still 7.4.0, but I can upload that if you want19:46
onoderaTimB_: thanks, but I can get that one from crux.ster.zone :)19:46
TimB_oh wow, I am using 3.4 contrib on my laptop D:19:48
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TimB_well, if nobody got it up later, if I'm still up I'll let you know19:49
john_cephalopodaTimB_: Hmm, what's the problem with 3.4 contrib?19:56
TimB_john_cephalopoda: that I'm on 3.5 core and opt for too long now ;)19:58
TimB_not much more, it's actually just fortran that needed an update :)19:58
john_cephalopodaTimB_: Huh, so many people using 3.5 already before release.20:04
jaegeronodera: I can upload one in a few minutes20:08
onoderajaeger: thanks!20:08
TimB_john_cephalopoda: while trying to figure out a bug I had with I guess dbus session I bumped almost everything bumpable.. :) otherwise, I usually waited for a rc20:09
jaegeronodera: https://crux.ninja/tmp/gcc-fortran%238.3.0-1.pkg.tar.xz20:10
onoderaperfect, thanks :)20:11
jaegerNo problem20:13
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stenurHELP op22:04
stenurirc and me22:06
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