IRC Logs for #crux Friday, 2019-08-23

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ryuoalso_uplime: sounds like a missing file. did something not get built?01:00
also_uplimei think that might be the case. I ended up flashing the vm anyways, cause a lot of software had gotten half built on it01:26
jaegeralso_uplime: it built fine here in a clean env for what that's worth01:33
also_uplimethanks, thats helpful. that makes me pretty confident its something i did to the vm01:35
also_uplimeluckily its meant for situations like this haha01:35
ryuoalso_uplime: what's the host?01:37
ryuooh. my sympathies.01:38
also_uplimewith a vmware hypervisor01:38
also_uplimehaha, thanks01:38
also_uplimeits a pretty esoteric combination01:38
ryuoi never thought the main desktop OSes would end up objectively worse than desktop Linux...01:39
also_uplimeto be honest, i like it more than linux desktop. i see the appeal, but linux desktop and i never got along very well01:39
ryuoWindows is pretty obvious if you've been keeping tabs on Microsoft's antics since Windows 8, perhaps even 10.01:40
ryuoIsn't macos becoming worse though? Macbooks sure are.01:40
also_uplimeyeah, the hardware is getting a lot worse01:40
ryuodesktop linux may have its problems, but since it's not tied to specific x86 hardware like macos is...01:41
also_uplimethe actual os isn't that bad. some nice kernel security features01:41
ryuobut you have to think of the whole package.01:41
ryuoif the only hardware you can get macos running on sucks so bad, what does it matter if the OS is somehow good?01:41
also_uplimecause work provides it, so i can just request new hardare :301:42
also_uplimeif this one breaks that is01:42
ryuowell, that's the problem isn't it. the problem is in all of them these days.01:42
ryuoit doesn't matter if you get new, does it?01:42
also_uplimethat being said, i really like crux more than i like other linuxes, so i probably will try desktop crux at some point01:43
ryuowhat does it matter who provides it?01:43
also_uplimedoesn't matter to me as long as im not the one buying it01:43
ryuoI see.01:43
ryuoI care if I have to use it.01:43
ryuoThat detail is irrelevant.01:44
also_uplimei've had to use mac for so long that its kind of like stockholm syndrome anyways01:44
also_uplimepretty much the same reason I use ruby01:44
ryuoRuby, eh? Did you see h2o? It uses mruby to handle part of its feature set.01:45
also_uplimeis that the web server?01:45
ryuoit's a web server, yes.01:45
also_uplimei've been meaning to check it out01:46
also_uplimeusually i go nginx + passenger01:46
ryuomight want to try it from debian. it's a pain to package.01:46
also_uplimeoof, ok01:46
ryuowell, lots of third party libs iirc01:47
ryuolook for yourself.01:47
also_uplimeoh yeah i see what you mean01:51
also_uplimeoh good, libtool01:51
also_uplimewhat an annoying package01:51
jaegeryeah, I use a mac for work and work provides it. just got my replacement one yesterday, actually01:52
ryuoincidently i only see one drawback to no apple devices.01:52
ryuoi can't test safari for web site testing.01:52
jaegerI was worried that the touch bar would suck for vim due to ESC placement but so far it hasn't been a problem01:53
also_uplimesafari's crap anyways01:53
jaegerthey're all crap in some way or other01:53
jaegerI hate browsers :P01:53
also_uplimei've slowly been making tools in ruby ot replace my day-to-day activities01:53
ryuorecently it seems firefox decided to stop using the GTK+ theme for scrollbars like chrome does.01:53
also_uplimechrome's decision to (silently) hide the subdomain made me think i had forgotten everything i knew about x509 :I01:55
ryuomaybe browsers like midori are the future.01:56
also_uplimemaybe people will go back to gopher01:56
also_uplimethat'd be great01:56
ryuoobviously you don't know midori...01:56
also_uplimelol yeah, definitely not. i remember it being an optional browser for ubuntu years ago01:57
also_uplimeback before the whole unity thing01:57
also_uplimei think it was ubuntu at least01:57
ryuothat flavor was crap but the newer webkit gtk is far better.01:58
ryuoessentially linux only has 3 main browser engines.01:58
ryuowebkit, blink, gecko01:59
also_uplimewhich one is blink?01:59
also_uplimei've heard of it but cant recall the vendors01:59
also_uplimethats right01:59
ryuowebkit is.. whatever wants to use it. it has no prominent user on Linux.01:59
ryuothere's plenty of users.02:00
ryuoepiphany, aka "web" on gnome02:00
ryuomidori, a revived version built on webkit 2.02:00
also_uplimedoes electron use blink?02:01
ryuosurf, a really  minimal browser.02:01
ryuoyes, afaik.02:01
ryuoit basically uses a chromium core.02:01
also_uplimehave you seen the vim browser thing?02:01
ryuovaguely. i think it uses webkit too.02:01
ryuofor awhile i kinda like qt webkit ones but02:02
ryuothey've pretty much died in favor of qt blink.02:02
ryuoqt webengine02:02
ryuotalk about a monoculture02:02
ryuoat this rate there may be only one engine.02:03
ryuomicrosoft gave up.02:03
ryuowe keep seeing players exitting left and right.02:03
also_uplimei dislike the "everything is a mini browser" culture, but the idea of being able to design a window with css seems pretty appealing02:04
ryuowebkit is sunk if apple ever decides to base safari on chromium.02:04
also_uplimehaha yeah02:04
ryuoalso_uplime: what do you think GTK+3 uses?02:04
also_uplimedoes that use css?02:04
ryuothe themes do.02:04
also_uplimei dont use many gtk apps these days02:04
also_uplimeoh neat02:05
ryuoi doubt anything else does.02:05
ryuohas its own problems.02:05
ryuoyou can't finetune animations like you could in the GTK+2 days.02:05
ryuoyou're stuck with whatever CSS can do.02:05
also_uplimeyeah, thats the downside02:06
also_uplimecant get into the nitty gritty02:06
ryuoin GTK+2 you could use an engine written in C to finetune appearances.02:06
also_uplimeim glad im not a designer so i dont have to deal with that02:06
ryuonot really possible in GTK+3 anymore.02:06
ryuoi've been seeing javascript more and more in Desktop linux though.02:08
ryuoAt least for Cinnamon and GNOME.02:08
ryuothey use it for scripting.02:08
also_uplimei wish more things would use lua as a scripting language02:11
also_uplimewhoever thought it would be a good idea to color-ize libtool warnings in red instead of yellow needs a talking to02:18
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SitriIt'd be nice if lua weren't horrible to write in (if you're used to other languages)03:41
SitriI get the impression it's kind of the VB of the FOSS world03:41
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cruxbot[contrib.git/3.5]: mathjax: 2.7.5 -> 2.7.605:26
cruxbot[contrib.git/3.5]: ostree: 2019.2 -> 2019.305:26
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Romsterdlcusa, you shouldn't need crux-libreoffice anymore it's in contrib now.10:32
Romsteralso_uplime, looks like you ran out of space?10:36
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also_uplimeRomster: oh, that would definitely make sense. ill add more space to the partition11:05
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dlcusaRomster, that's where what's installed came from.  I'll be rebuilding it soon enough, but first getting a DE is needed.  I will next retry building xfce using pedja's unmodified ports and their dependencies.15:32
pedjadlcusa, fair warning: I never tried to build xfce in a clean env (it's on my TODO...), so you may have issues building it.15:35
pedja'prt-get depinst xfce4' might or might not work15:36
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dlcusapedja, I did first the first time, but there's been maintenance since then.  I will need to use -is, though, IIRC.15:39
dlcusaHold on, I'll refresh my memory...15:40
dlcusapedja, n/m--I was confused--one point I thought xfce-dev-tools had failed so, but the logs don't confirm that, so I'll not use -is this time around and see what happens.15:46
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pedjaI ran signature check, and you are right, perl modules and a few plugins had that issue. I pushed the fix, thanks for the tip :)15:52
pedjaI'll have to clean it up at some point, several plugins are dropped by upstream.15:53
TimB_pedja: i pushed my indicator ports to contrib a while ago15:54
pedjaTimB_, I know, I dropped a few ports from the repo and use yours instead :)15:55
TimB_ah okay, i just saw libindicator-gtk3 in there15:55
TimB_i assume xfce would eat less ressources as mate, right?15:56
dlcusaAs did I in my localized mirror of pedja's repo :)15:56
dlcusaTimB_, I can't tell you yet.15:57
pedjaTimB_, can't compare, never used mate. but xfce is light, sure.15:58
TimB_ that's all? besides the clutter it will want like indicators?15:58
pedjathose are optional/nice to have15:59
TimB_ah, i see15:59
pedjapretty much anything in xfce is optional :)16:00
dlcusaAs it should be--those guys are loathe to tell you how to do things.16:00
TimB_i have mate installed just to use it for it's management tools, gtk themes for example16:00
TimB_i might think about slimming that down with xfce, at least on my notebook16:01
pedjaimho, it's a perfect middle between behemoths like Gnome/KDE and hardcore WM's :)16:03
TimB_what about stuff like cinnamon or whatever mint is using? it's supposed to be lightweight as well, right?16:03
dlcusaI daresay, Xfce is very CRUXish.16:03
TimB_'hardcore'.. :P16:03
TimB_having a non clutter interface is not much hardcore, is it?16:04
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TimB_going through dependency hell like with libreoffice is :P16:05
pedjatbh, I liked fluxbox when I briefly used it, but I prefer a more 'traditional' interface.16:06
TimB_fluxbox was a long time ago, over here :)16:06
TimB_i really, really like i316:07
pedjaryzen3000 is better :)16:12
TimB_zzz :P16:12
cruxbot[opt.git/3.5]: xfsprogs: update to 5.2.116:46
cruxbot[opt.git/3.5]: samba: update to 4.10.716:46
cruxbot[opt.git/3.5]: poppler-qt5: update to 0.80.016:46
cruxbot[opt.git/3.5]: poppler-glib: update to 0.80.016:46
cruxbot[opt.git/3.5]: [notify] poppler: update to 0.80.016:46
cruxbot[core.git/3.5]: bindutils: update to 9.14.516:49
pedjadamn, another poppler update17:13
TimB_ACTION continues to cry in LaTeX17:14
cruxbot[opt.git/3.5]: sbc: removed17:18
cruxbot[opt.git/3.5]: bluez: removed17:18
TimB_stenur: i will merge your changes and commit bluez to contrib, i will not keep the version number in the name around17:29
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stenurTimB_: great, then i can drop the overlay again!  And bluez-alsa, any plans with that?20:47
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TimB_did you do any changes to that or did you just fork it off to not add my repo as a whole?21:02
stenurMostly i added the rc.d script, as it is a daemon.  And moved it to a sbin/ path.21:03
TimB_i am still waiting on my bt speakers to be charged btw... funny me stored them turned on...21:03
TimB_ok.. i can merge those changes, but i am not using it21:03
TimB_i am not _really_ using bluez either, maybe i will at some point though21:03
stenurbluez-alsa as such you mean?21:03
TimB_yes, bluez-alsa. i do use pulseaudio21:04
stenurIt's working, it's working...21:04
TimB_i was weak and gave in to pa at some point, i hate struggling with stuff like that21:04
stenurOk. I used that many years ago for a few days (Debian 3.0? was the lastest Linux i have used), i remember such graphical board full of jacks.21:05
stenurHave heared what ryuo said, and yes it is true.  That thing also can not mix, i now do "ALSAPCM=bt blabla" for the single channel it can get.21:06
stenurMaybe only misconfiguration and i could move it to be under my dmix xmix, but am distressed with that s..t for now.21:07
TimB_yeah, i can't dig too much into such details either21:07
ryuostenur: usually software mixing is all that's available.21:07
TimB_pulseeffects alone is stretching my understanding already, and that's an rather easy gui :P21:07
stenurBut looked at pulse audio dependencies, and that made me shiver.  Better not.21:07
TimB_ryuo: emu10k1 chip had hardware mixing, that's why i still use that chip actually21:08
TimB_with alsa21:08
stenurryuo: well.  But i can live with that, if done in kernel like in FreeBSD :), not going in-kernel, out-kernel, in-daemon, out-daemon, in-kernel etc.21:09
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stenurbrrrr. I have nice dmix in ALSA, but have not figured out how to move that bluealsa thing under dmix to get multiple channels into it.21:10
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stenurOnly the "type hw" aka hda_intel yet driven by that.21:11
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pedjaTimB_, you might be interested in
TimB_VIMs edition? :D21:26
TimB_sure i'm in - but what does it do?21:26
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TimB_equip an rpi with an better sound driver?21:27
TimB_too late, i had a drink already ;) still waiting for that stupid bt-box to be charged up21:28
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pedjaexternal (apparently HQ audio) DAC thingie :)21:30
pedjaI've seen someone mention at r/linux that people are making cases for them and selling them for $50021:32
pedjathat are *that* good, allegedly21:32
pedjawouldn't know, not an audiophile21:32
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TimB_stenur: for me, it connects to the speaker but it doesn't play through it. might need to point pa output there21:39
TimB_pedja: i still use an old stereo amp from around 91, has been restaurated recently.. :) i can live with flatter sound from my raspi21:40
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TimB_no, pulseaudio. and it was just a question about which sink it uses21:41
TimB_works like a charm21:41
stenurYes, here too.21:41
TimB_it works with different sources at once as well21:42
stenurThat not. :)21:42
stenurBut that is likely a configuration error; i need to figure out how to make bluealsa live under dmix.21:42
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TimB_how do you feel about maintaining bluez-alsa in contrib?21:43
TimB_and, if all else fails, pulseaudio isn't that bad21:43
TimB_it just works if you ask me21:43
TimB_it even worked with both, wifi and bt at the same time, i'm amazed21:44
stenurintltool, consolekit, i would have to think about that.21:45
stenurWell i currently record from the SleepingEnvironmentalBot via sox, tee(1)ing to faac for ALSAPCM=bt ouput and an mp2 file.21:45
stenurThat SEB comes in via wireless network.21:45
stenurNo hangs, luckily that freak seems out.21:46
TimB_you can take a look at my fork21:46
TimB_i cut that down a bit21:46
stenurMy loadavg is 0.62, 0.43, 0.37, four CPUs, all under 2%.21:47
stenurTimB_: bluez-alsa?21:47
TimB_pulseaudio, i thought you talked about that21:47
stenurAh!  I am looking at the thing in opt/, wait.21:48
stenurTimB_: looks a bit better to me.21:50
stenurThat is that tdb thread on crux-devel, i see.21:50
TimB_if you would also vote for that, i wouldn't put much more thought into it tbh, if i don't see anything else as a negative effect of that21:52
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stenurTimB_: well i can vote, shall it interest anyone. But why tdb, it can gdbm, and here i see man-db, perl, python and python3 all hanging on that gdbm?21:55
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TimB_sure you get a vote21:56
TimB_i know, like i said, pa seems to prefer tdb.. i don't know why and i didn't ask any questions about it21:56
stenurNever heard of tbd, to be honest. I am all in favour of ldbm, and try to use it where i can .. to get rid of as many DBs as possible.21:57
stenurI have written a bogofilter backend for it, postfix uses it, the MUA i maintain will start using it. mutt can use it, too.21:57
stenurIt is very small and very fast.21:58
stenur(bogofilter backend not yet released.  But using it and is upstream for more than a year.)21:58
TimB_i have nothing i can add of value on such a topic21:59
stenur'Have written that backend for that very goal that is, getting rid of all those.21:59
stenurSorry.  I am still looking forward to try out your LXC stuff!  And maybe, well, of pulseaudio is so much more flexible.  Your port does not bring in much weirdness it seems.22:02
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TimB_i tried bluetooth with blueman btw22:06
TimB_works fine as well22:06
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cruxbot[contrib.git/3.5]: qownnotes: 19.8.7 -> 19.8.822:08
cruxbot[contrib.git/3.5]: bluez: initial commit, version 5.5022:08
TimB_this one should work for you as well22:08
TimB_moves libical to an optional dep22:09
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TimB_is there any need for sbc to be picked up?22:10
TimB_so, what do you think? can i trust bluez-alsa into your hands to maintain? maybe in contrib? not sure if you have a key? if not, why not? :P22:14
TimB_i found it worthy to be kept around, but i have no use for it acutally, if it's maintained somewhere else this would be great22:14
stenurTimB_: that bluez i will use.22:15
stenurTimB_: well, why not?  A key for contrib.git i do not have, but Thomas Penteker installed my SSH key for s-s-d access.22:16
stenurSo likely just a matter of adjusting SSH policies, however that is done.22:16
stenurI mean, my repo is not even searchable by portdbc until now.22:17
stenurYeah, be warned i sweep through all the things, make noise and all that.22:18
stenurQuite some things i would do, you just have comitted one of them.22:18
stenur(That rc.d "status" queries exit with the actual status value, that is.  I like to have watchdog possibilities.)22:19
TimB_i still haven't really figured out lightdms rc.d file22:19
TimB_it will start just fine, but restart won't work. i think stop was working fine, don't remember22:20
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cruxbot[contrib.git/3.5]: sbc: initial commit, version 1.422:33
cruxbot[contrib.git/3.5]: sbc: fix 30122:38
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jolupaanyone any experience with jekyll?22:39
TimB_not me22:40
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also_uplimei've set it up before but i've never actually used it22:41
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TimB_cool, poppler broke texlive but with luatex, it still works. it's only 'the older' pdftex that's not working23:09
TimB_take that poppler23:09
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