IRC Logs for #crux Sunday, 2019-11-10

joacimsometimes cant type in those lame javascript-y login forms norwegians banks use00:00
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AnselmoI once tried to use it without much success some years ago00:00
Anselmomaybe time to give it another try00:00
Romsteryeah it's running a twitch stream and some tabs of searching stuff00:01
Romsteri still find sites that clients have to use internet explorer00:01
Romstererrr00:01
Romsterewww00:01
Romsterwhat happened to cross browser compatibility00:02
Romsterone such site for pilot licences needs documents uploaded as either picture or pdf and a max size of 2mb00:03
Romsterand the error message? wrong file type... when it wasn't00:03
Romsterdespite it listing png,jpg,pdf00:03
joacimsome government sites require some very specific pdf versions00:03
joacimpdfs crated with anything not adobe wont work00:04
Romsterand then there was a 2 image thing for the one section guess what it limits you to 1 file!00:04
Anselmox-x00:04
Romsterso i shoved gimp on that customers pc and pasted them 2 images in one file argh00:04
Romstergovernment sites suck for browser compatibility00:05
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joacimhad some switches and gateways not work with safari too. mostly hpe switches and some semi-old versions of fortigates00:08
joacimsome features just dont work00:08
joacimhad issues doing firmware upgrades with both00:08
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Romsteroh yeah apple users are screwed no ie00:09
Romsterzimmer_Dl fix your connection!00:09
joacimi have a windows vm for when i need IE00:09
Romstersucks that ya still need that00:10
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joacimsometimes have to use it for remote console stuff00:10
joacimnever got it to work on some older lenovo servers, but i think thats due to my jre being too new00:11
jaegerI have some bash scripts wrapping an old JRE to talk to my dell R610 DRACs in the home lab00:12
jaegerI hate java KVM but no choice on those00:12
jaegerat least new dells have HTML5 consoles00:12
cruxbot[contrib.git/3.5]: faad2: 2.9.0 -> 2.9.100:15
cruxbot[contrib.git/3.5]: faac: 1.29.9.2 -> 1.3000:15
Romstersounds painful00:16
Romsterand i guess no one would bother to write html5 consoles for them old switches jaeger00:17
jaegeryeah, not likely at all00:17
Romsterdidn't think so00:18
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cruxbot[opt.git/3.5]: gimp: 2.10.12 -> 2.10.1401:09
cruxbot[opt.git/3.5]: gegl: 0.4.16 -> 0.4.1801:09
cruxbot[opt.git/3.5]: [notify] babl: add missing dependency lcms201:09
Romsterjaeger, i'm looking at bubblewrap and i made it not depend on docbook and it compiles here without docbook01:13
jaegerFine by me. :) I don't even use it, just tried to build it in a container when someone mentioned it had a problem01:14
Romstermysteriously satisfying to pop:               yes01:14
Romsterlol01:14
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jaegerheh01:14
Romsteri made it use it if it's available else use the bundled man page, that way i can copy the new man page to the port when i update it01:15
Romsterjaeger, i bet they have a half installed docbook without running rejmerge01:16
Romsteror post install scripts01:16
Romsteri really hate docbook01:16
jaegerThe container was fresh with nothing much installed besides core... the bubblewrap build hard failed because docbook wasn't installed01:17
jaeger(for me, not sure for whoever that was)01:17
Romsterhmm odd01:17
Romsterno one else has reported anything01:18
jaegerACTION shrugs01:18
jaegerdon't worry about it, then :) I don't even use it, as mentioned01:18
Romsteryeah i'll wait for more reports01:19
Romsteri am usually pretty good with not many build failures01:19
TimB_hey all, bubblewrap works for me as well01:20
Romsterhi TimB_01:20
TimB_Romster: you do share cache and distfiles etc. via network, right? have you noticed that some operations seem to take longer or is it just me?01:22
TimB_not much - just a bit01:23
Romsternot really noticed01:24
Romsterlinking does take a bit with lots of ram01:24
TimB_ok01:25
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TimB_maybe it's the harddrive i'm using, not sure if it's actually any good01:25
Romstermostly because of so many build jobs01:25
TimB_but i am still shuffling stuff around01:26
TimB_i am really tempted to put everything on zfs01:26
RomsterDISTCC_HOSTS="--randomize --localslots=4 --localslots_cpp=2 localhost/4 192.168.1.31/4"01:27
Romsteri'm doing that currently01:27
Romsternot bothered to get the rest of my machines on crux 3.5 yet01:28
Romstercar renovations work just so much on this year01:28
Romsteri compile in tmpfs01:28
Romsterand save a few seconds by removing -pipe01:29
Romsteras it's in ram already01:29
TimB_i do the same01:29
Romsterbarely any difference with -pipe and without -pipe01:29
Romsterlook those options up in distcc limit linker jobs01:30
Romsterto many linker jobs will just hit swap and slow it down more than doing less linking jobs at the same time01:30
TimB_mh i see01:32
Romsterunless you have tons of ram01:33
TimB_for it's the configure scripts that seem to run slower.. all else performs as expected.01:33
TimB_might get some more ram when i decide on zfs01:33
Romsterwell it's gotta test for stuff and it hits the cache and if it's not cached it'll be a bit slower01:33
Romsterccache is a bit slower when it gets a lot of cache misses01:34
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TimB_could be it, yeah01:34
Romsterbut if you run configure more than once it should be just as fast01:35
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RomsterCCACHE_COMPILERCHECK does get executed every time you do a compile on ccache so that's why i made that a string01:36
Romsterexport OS_CCACHE_COMPILERCHECK="$(/usr/bin/gcc -dumpversion | sed -z 's/\n/ /g'; crux | cut -d' ' -f3)"01:36
Romsterexport CCACHE_COMPILERCHECK="string:$OS_CCACHE_COMPILERCHECK"01:36
Romsterdown side is that doesn't account for clang changes01:36
Romsterbut if i add that then a clang update will invalidate all the gcc changes01:37
Romsterbut then i end up dumping the cache and let it build again so i may as well add in clang version to that. but if clang is not installed on my build box then yeah issue number 201:38
Romsterlife wasn't meant to be easy01:38
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TimB_hehe, no, it wasn't01:40
TimB_fortunately, it was easy to set up my notebook to mount and use the network provided cache and distfiles01:41
TimB_networkmanager has (pre-/post-)up-/down-events01:41
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Romsterthat's nice01:42
TimB_one sed adjusts ccache.conf, one adjusts pkgmk.conf according to the networks UUID01:42
Romsterfvwm is still going wow01:42
Romsteroh so in theory you could have another distcc at another location and it'll adjust it for you01:43
Romsteri still haven't put crux on a laptop yet but i am thinking of it and distcc it to the network for compiling01:44
TimB_that would work01:44
TimB_script is off archwiki i think. http://dpaste.com/1HQDGZV01:45
TimB_just adjusted it to accept either wirelss or wired UUIDs01:45
Romsterpekwm doesn't seem to be moving anywhere now so i am not sure i wanna remain loyal when steam gives me issues with the decorations01:45
TimB_steam is just a cunt about window decorations, not pekwms fault to begin with, really. but i3 suffers the same, but you can work around it01:46
Romsteryeah i work around it with a little wrapper i found01:47
Romsterwgetpaste ~/bin/steamwm.cpp01:47
RomsterYour paste can be seen here: http://dpaste.com/0RNA7BZ01:47
Romstersteamwm.cpp steam01:47
Romsterkind of neat that it's a script and a c++ program that compiles itself when ran01:48
TimB_i just read it (3am here) and was like "whats going on there"01:49
Romsternot the usual thing you would see01:49
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Romsterthe script part gets ignored by the compiler01:50
Romsterand the c++ gets ignored by the shell script01:50
TimB_cool01:50
Romster#if 001:51
Romsterhas a lot to do with it and the comments01:51
TimB_i actually got a report on steam-native not running from wawrzek01:51
TimB_supplied me some logs to go through tomorrow01:51
Romsteri been reading someone here had issues with steam in general but they hosed there system and a reinstall fixed it01:51
TimB_#// looks like it first catches the shell part, then c++?01:52
Romsteryep the shell then sets the define and passes it to g++ to compile and run01:52
Romsterwhich g++ then ignores the shell part of it01:52
Romsteralmsot been thinking of adding that to the steam port but dunno01:53
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TimB_WARNING: setlocale('en_US.UTF-8') failed, using locale: 'C'. <- that is the most annoying 'steam feature'01:53
TimB_i have no freaking idea how to provide a valid en_US.UTF-8 locale in steams view01:54
Romsteroh01:54
TimB_maybe adding it might be nice01:54
Romsteri added libva-32 for acceleration on wine for 32bit i didn't think to do that sooner01:55
Romsterprobably would help with steam too01:55
Romsteri still tend to derp a lot01:56
Romsterbut no one seems to notice01:56
TimB_Assert( Assertion Failed: On-disk registry has changed and is marked dirty - we're about to lose data. ):registry.cpp:255 <- interesting message in the log wawrzek supplied01:57
Romsterhmm01:57
Romsteri would ask him to move the ~/.steam to ~/.steam.bak and retest01:58
TimB_yeah01:58
TimB_this just seems to work most of the time as steams feeds up on something and refuses to work properly01:58
Romsterlike we may have missed some dependencies but it's really hard to find those01:59
TimB_$ cd ~/.steam/root/ubuntu12_3202:00
TimB_$ file * | grep ELF | cut -d: -f1 | LD_LIBRARY_PATH=. xargs ldd | grep 'not found' | sort | uniq02:00
TimB_there is still that02:00
TimB_that shoud get most of the clients deps02:00
Romsterprobably should throw that in the README02:01
TimB_$ for i in $(pgrep steam); do sed '/\.local/!d;s/.*  //g' /proc/$i/maps; done | sort | uniq02:01
TimB_this one can show which non system libs are in used while you have the client running, nice02:01
TimB_yeah, might need to accumalte a readme, or wiki article02:01
Romsteri juist fired up steam-native though the wrapper script i got and even the deals are showing so the browser side is working sitll02:02
Romsterstill*02:02
Romsterlibpulse.so.0 => not found02:03
Romsterbut i got that in the shell script to use apulse-3202:03
Romsterso that injects that02:03
TimB_for me, it's working great as well02:03
TimB_played some hours cities skylines 2-3 weeks ago, no complaints02:04
Romsterhmm seems i have a few non-native ones still02:04
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Romsterffmpeg sdl2 icu02:04
TimB_ok, i will look at it tomorrow, i don't have native libs on my laptop right now02:05
Romsteryeah skylines runs fine for me too02:05
Romsterwe could probably narrow down the native libs a tad more.02:05
Romsterpretty darn close to being clean though02:06
Romsterthe locale and gtk errors i get in console no idea02:06
Romsterseem non-fatal02:07
Romsteroh and it can't find lspci in /sbin :P knew that for ages not bothered to fix it yet02:08
Romstera sed would provably do02:08
TimB_locales are fatale for anything thats not covered by C, like äöü and everybodies favorite: ß02:09
Romsterah you would notice that more than i would02:09
TimB_guess everybody that needs any kind of accents or special characters, yeah02:10
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jaegerI wonder why your accented chars work fine and frinnst's accented chars crash cruxbot :P02:10
TimB_tried around w/ it for a bit and got frustrated, didn't find any clue where it fails to accepts the system provided locale02:10
TimB_wouldn't it only matter in commit messages jaeger?02:11
TimB_or should i say: jäger!02:11
jaegernah, because cruxbot does read everything that happens in the channel02:11
jaegereven if it doesn't react to anything02:11
TimB_ah, i see02:11
Romstercruxbot, test02:11
Romsterthought it had some triggers in here02:12
TimB_cruxbot: Knäckebrot mit Käse?02:12
Romsteror was that the old one02:12
jaegerThe old supybot (clb) had a few... then supybot was unmaintained for years02:13
jaegertek replaced it with a sopel bot but that one died a lot and didn't reconnect on its own02:13
jaegerSo I replaced that one with a small python bot of my own02:14
Romsterah02:24
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TimB_time to head off. i will have a look into steam and further deps later Romster03:11
TimB_have a good day everybody03:11
jaegergood night03:19
Romsterlater TimB03:47
Romsteri just got back home, walked the dogs.03:48
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cruxbot[contrib.git/3.5]: python3-cryptography: 2.7 -> 2.808:49
cruxbot[contrib.git/3.5]: python-cryptography: 2.7 -> 2.808:49
cruxbot[contrib.git/3.5]: youtube-dl: 2019.09.12.1 -> 2019.11.0508:49
cruxbot[contrib.git/3.5]: python3-attrs: 19.1.0 -> 19.3.008:49
cruxbot[contrib.git/3.5]: python-attrs: 19.1.0 -> 19.3.008:49
cruxbot[contrib.git/3.5]: python3-cython: 0.29.13 -> 0.29.1408:49
cruxbot[contrib.git/3.5]: python-cython: 0.29.13 -> 0.29.1408:49
cruxbot[opt.git/3.5]: python3-pip: 19.3 -> 19.3.109:02
cruxbot[opt.git/3.5]: python3-six: 1.12.0 -> 1.13.009:02
cruxbot[opt.git/3.5]: python-six: 1.12.0 -> 1.13.009:02
cruxbot[opt.git/3.5]: python3-setuptools: 41.4.0 -> 41.6.009:02
cruxbot[opt.git/3.5]: python-setuptools: 41.4.0 -> 41.6.009:02
cruxbot[opt.git/3.5]: python-pip: 19.3 -> 19.3.109:03
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Romsterwell that was weird i was gettinga  169.x.x.x address off dhcpcd11:09
Romsterhad to reboot my router after using static ip then switched back to dhcp11:09
RomsterACTION shrugs11:10
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TimB_Romster: maybe it's your modems ip range you temporarily got?11:17
TimB_looking at the 'missing deps' for steam native.. it looks like just a few ports really, doesn't it?11:19
TimB_looks like sdl for some reason, ffmpeg, chrome, icu.. that's it?11:20
Romsteri got a dhcp reservation set for this MAC address11:21
Romsteryeah ffmpeg sdl2 icu11:21
Romsterprobably some set old version11:21
Romsterbeen updating and finally decided to reboot to a new kernel11:22
Romsterafter 60 days of uptime11:22
Romsteri got lazy11:22
TimB_:D11:22
Romsternow i am trying to figure out why nvidia vulkin isn't working yet again11:22
Romsteror it is and shaderc needs a rebuild for mpv11:25
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Romsternope maybe i got the wrong API version now11:26
TimB_Romster: do you have anything defined besides the ccache_dir in your ccache.conf?11:27
Romsterexport OS_CCACHE_COMPILERCHECK="$(/usr/bin/gcc -dumpversion | sed -z 's/\n/ /g'; crux | cut -d' ' -f3)"11:29
Romsterexport CCACHE_COMPILERCHECK="string:$OS_CCACHE_COMPILERCHECK"11:29
Romsterexport CCACHE_PREFIX="distcc"11:29
Romsterand CCACHE_DIR="/var/cache/ccache"11:29
TimB_so you don't use ccache.conf?11:29
Romsterno... should i be?11:29
TimB_well, no. i guess not :D11:30
Romsteri am always debugging vulkan -_-11:30
Romsterupdate stuff and then i have to find why it stopped working11:31
TimB_i just get too many cache misses with the shared cache, might be my old settings11:31
Romsteryou need to keep the same CCACHE_COMPILERCHECK for every ccache setup else they will all miss11:34
Romsteri finally pushed a few updates to romster repo11:35
TimB_i do have them around all boxes like that11:35
TimB_mmh, i will have to poke around that hole some more11:36
Romsterccache -s11:36
Romsteron each box see if the configs are the same and env11:36
TimB_anyways, i am not sure if porting these special versions for steam native will pay off? I mean, that could change any day and so on, they are doing a lot of changes to the client itself, at least in the beta branch11:36
Romsterany of the steam-native-runtimes ports could change any day11:37
TimB_ccache -s doesn't report any version string and or env vars for me?11:37
Romsterenv11:37
Romsterfor the vars11:37
TimB_true that11:37
Romsterprimary config                      /var/cache/ccache/ccache.conf11:37
Romstercache hit rate                     44.76 %11:38
Romsteri've been compiling a lot11:38
TimB_yeah i see that, they share the same files11:38
TimB_they all build up on the same cache size11:38
Romstercache size                          18.1 GB11:38
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TimB_ok, cleaned out the cache and stats and started from a new set, it just seems to work. i did add some options to ccache.conf to see if they do any good, but it doesn't look that way :D13:22
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pedjagee, I wonder why aws ios app provides more features that require creds then android one?17:17
pedjacould it be because android is, from a security standpoint, mostly a dumpster fire?17:18
Anselmosurely not17:19
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pedjaspeaking of aws, some 'analysts' are pushing the idea that amazon should buy oracle :)17:22
pedjagiven that oracle sued amazon, that could get awkward17:22
Anselmostranger things have happened I'm sure17:25
joacimi think a dumpster fire would be more secure than android17:25
joacimwonder what would happen to solaris and mainline zfs if amazon bought oracle17:26
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pedjais solaris even maintained?17:42
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pedjaamazon could finish what the sun started, and just release the whole shebang as open source :)17:44
pedjabezos hates ellison, apparently, so I can see him doing that, just to spite him17:45
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msiismSo, currently, CRUX only supports the x86_64 architecture, right? Are there any plans to support anything else. Seems like supporting ARM devices is on the list. I guess 32-bit x86 will not likely ever be supported, will it?17:55
Anselmothere are some arm devices currently supported by the crux-arm project17:56
msiismOk, thanks. I actually wanted to give CRUX a try. But literally all the computers I own are, unfortunately, 32-bit x86.17:57
dbrookethere's some unofficial i686/32bit stuff at https://crux.ninja/ but I've not used it myself18:01
msiismHm... interesting. I'll have a look.18:01
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jaegermsiism: The i686 ISO found at the link dbrooke mentioned is unofficial but should be usable, at least. And while unofficial, since it's mine, I try to make sure it works. But as mentioned, in general the x86_64 stuff is preferred18:18
msiismOk, thanks for the info. I'm checking out a few distros and will probably give it a try soon.18:19
jaegerI haven't made one for 3.5 yet, though the ports overlay is updated. I'll look into that18:20
msiismOk, cool.18:20
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ryuomsiism: why do you still need 32 bit x86?18:54
ryuomost x86 cpus made in the last 10+ years support 64 bit.18:54
ryuomsiism: if this is about 32 bit software, crux uses multilib so it shouldn't be a problem.18:55
msiismWell, the Intel Core 2 Duo is not 64-bit-capable, IIRC.18:56
ryuosome of them are.18:56
msiismAnd that's what two of my machines run.18:56
ryuowhich models?18:56
ryuothe penryns at least are 64 bit capable.18:56
msiismok, let's see.18:56
tilman /proc/cpuinfo should list it i think?18:57
msiismyeah, doing that18:57
ryuoor lscpu18:57
msiismIntel(R) Core(TM)2 Duo CPU     E7500  @ 2.93GHz18:57
ryuo64 bit is supported.18:57
ryuohttps://ark.intel.com/content/www/us/en/ark/products/36503/intel-core-2-duo-processor-e7500-3m-cache-2-93-ghz-1066-mhz-fsb.html18:57
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ryuothough you are correct, some core 2 duos are 32 bit only.18:58
ryuojust upgrade to 64 bit... it's generally fastr.18:58
msiismoh, i see. it says “clflush size    : 64” and “cache_alignment : 64”18:58
tilmanmsiism: that's something different :p18:59
ryuowhat's the other cpu model?18:59
msiismtilman: Ok, I feared it would be... :)18:59
msiismryuo: just booting up the machine and having a look.19:00
ryuogiven the age of that system... you may want to max out the ram if you're going to continue using it.19:00
ryuoiirc, 8G is a likely limit.19:00
ryuoyou can often get cheap used ram on ebay.19:00
ryuoI got 16G for around $40 a few months ago. DDR3L.19:01
ryuo160019:01
msiismthe other one is a Core 2 Duo T750019:01
ryuofor a laptop19:01
ryuoT7500... i fear this one is probably 32 bit only19:01
ryuolet e check19:01
ryuoOh. I was wrong.19:01
ryuohttps://ark.intel.com/content/www/us/en/ark/products/29761/intel-core-2-duo-processor-t7500-4m-cache-2-20-ghz-800-mhz-fsb.html19:01
ryuothey're both 64 bit.19:02
ryuowhy limit yourself to i686 still?19:02
msiismOk, thanks. That's good to know.19:02
msiismWell, it's what I have. Also, it doesn't really feel like a limitation to me. It all runs pretty well.19:03
ryuowell it means you can amd64 or x86_64 variants just fine.19:03
ryuocan use19:03
msiismnice.19:03
ryuojust the extra registers and such of 64 bit mode generally make stuff run faster19:04
msiismBut yeah, memory is becoming a problem. I used to run with 2GB and no swap partition. Well, it would work, except I also use Firefox...19:04
ryuoplus some algorithms are more efficient with 64 bit mathematics.19:04
ryuo64 bit mode lets you use 4G+ without any hacks like PAE.19:05
ryuowhat's your RAM limit?19:05
ryuoyou can probably buy some second hand RAM and max it out.19:05
msiismsure, i could, and i will when it becomes unbearable.19:06
msiismI might even have some spare rem bars lying around somewhere19:06
ryuobut uh best of luck...19:08
ryuothose old systems will never receive new microcode for the intel security soup...19:08
msiismon the other hand, i tend to think that running on not so powerful hardware gives you a good idea of how hilariously resource-intensive some software has become.19:08
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msiismyeah, when i will eventually have to switch to new hardware, i will try to go with some open-source hardware, if that's possible.19:09
ryuothat's not going to come from x86... at best you can find some coreboot compatible stuff.19:10
ryuothat's more likely to come from arm or risc-v, if that ever amounts to anything.19:11
ryuobut arm has its own problems. proprietary blobs...19:11
ryuousually can't upgrade kernel because of how device specific they are.19:11
msiismyeah, i have been looking at risc-v a bit. (i don't really know anyhting about hardware, though.)19:12
ryuothough a slim few arm boards have an upstream u-boot.19:12
ryuolike the dreamplugs.19:12
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ryuou-boot is basically the ARM version of a BIOS on most arm devices.19:13
Rudolphhttps://developers.googleblog.com/2019/11/open-sourcing-google-cardboard.html19:14
ryuoRudolph: google invented... a cardboard box... something kids have been using for their own VR (imagination) for decades...19:15
ryuolol19:16
Rudolphlol19:16
pedjamsiism, I've been using c2d/8gb of ram with Crux until a few months ago :)19:18
pedjacompiling most of the stuff isn't fun, but it works fine19:18
msiismI'm currently on Devuan, usually running with two users logged in and running an X session. And if it weren't for forefox or Thunderbrid, I would not have a memory problem. Well, maybe working with bigger images in GIMP would also push memory consumption to the limit.19:20
ryuomsiism: most of my PCs have 16G these days.19:22
msiismI mean, it might sound a bit off, but didn't all that stuff work just fine with 2GB RAM a few years ago? Experience tells me it did. How come?19:22
ryuothen again i do a lot of stuff that benefits from the extra ram19:22
ryuonot just FF19:23
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pedjalatest ff works fine on the 2g machine, as long as I stay away from yt :)19:26
pedjabut that's more of the iGPU issue with h26419:26
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pedjaand lack of anything past opengl-1.x19:28
Anselmopartially its websites being crazy too, and if ff wants to support all of them it has to be bigger, but it is a big mess19:29
pedjait's ff, chrome, browsers using chrome engine thingie, and links :)19:31
pedjayeah, yeah, there are several others, too19:32
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msiismI sometimes resort to w3m.19:33
pedjahad to use links recently for some docs at unicode site19:34
pedjathey are doing some weird ssl downgrade thing, afaict19:34
pedjaand both chrome and ff are like 'hell no'19:35
msiismtext-only web browsers seem sort of like terminals and the web collided half-way, though.19:35
msiismAnd I mean the Web 1.0.19:37
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msiismcrux.nu is a really nice website, by the way.19:41
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msiismHowever, I found a typo on the About page:19:47
msiismIt's in the “Compared to other Linux distributions” section.19:47
msiism“so if you're an completely new to Linux-based operation systems or want a  zero-effort distribution, CRUX is not the optimal choice.” “an” needs to go.19:48
jaegeryeah, that should go. Thanks for the heads up19:48
UNIXn3rdon wikipedia?19:52
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msiismUNIXn3rd: Well, I was referring to https://crux.nu/Main/About, if that's what you're asking about.19:54
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pedjainteresting, ZoL will change the name probably next year.20:01
pedjato "OpenZFS for Linux and FreeBSD."20:01
pedjasorry, not ZoL, OpenZFS20:01
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ryuohttps://www.zdnet.com/article/microsoft-defender-atp-is-coming-to-linux-in-2020/20:31
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pedjams edge too20:40
pedjanot sure about legality of https://github.com/foxlet/macOS-Simple-KVM20:42
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pedjathen again, hackintoshes are a thing, so20:44
pedja(not sure that's the correct plural)20:48
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