IRC Logs for #crux Friday, 2020-01-31

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fysThere really aren't any good lightweight, actively developed graphical file managers02:25
][_R_][The one DSL uses?02:27
][_R_][ACTION forgets what its called02:27
fysi current use ROX-Filer but its dead02:27
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ryuofys: thunar?02:55
fysi've slightly considered it.. last i remember it wasn't exactly lightweight02:57
fysim compiling it now..03:05
ryuolightweight is relative and not always relevant. amd64 systems should generally have access to a considerable amount of RAM.03:08
ryuomost come with at 4G these days.03:08
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ryuoat least03:09
ryuocompared to the i686 days...03:09
fysjust because more resources exist doesn't mean i want to waste them on things needlessly...03:12
fysthose resources exist for tasks that NEED them03:12
fysnot looking at pics03:13
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ryuofys: i'll let my DE know that it's not welcome to use my vast amounts of RAM. all 16G of it. ;)03:20
fysi would.03:20
ryuofys: i've stopped caring about ram usage for most stuff because 4G goes a long way. i haven't run out in ages.03:23
ryuothough i use 16G these days03:23
uplimei can't wait for 5G ram03:24
ryuoi was using a system capped at 4G some time ago and it never had issues with standard DEs03:24
ryuoright now i sit with only 25% of my ram in actual use03:25
ryuoram is cheap; i can buy 16G for $60 or less.03:25
ryuoso why fret about ram usage? it seems a waste of time.03:25
ryuoit's not the 90s anymore where ram cost a fortune03:26
fysnothing youve said has anything to do with what i said03:27
fysusing more ram than you need to just because its cheap leads to lazy development.03:28
ryuosure it does. you want to conserve memory and storage resources and i'm saying it's not as necessary.03:28
fysthat's a terrible mindset..03:28
ryuoas it once was03:28
fys"hm i could optimize my code.. fuck it, CPUs are cheap"03:28
ryuohave you done any actual development?03:29
ryuooptimizations have trade-offs.03:29
fysyes, i am aware..03:29
fyswith your mindset nobody would care to make sure things ran as good as they could on things like a pi because "fuck it, ram is cheap"03:31
fysi cant upgrade the memory on my pi03:31
ryuook. fair enough. i'm not really a fan of disregarding optimizations in general but i can't really do anything about the greater trends here.03:35
fysalthough to the original point03:36
fysi compiled thunar03:36
fysgentoo sux03:36
ryuoso i kinda accepted this trend.03:36
ryuobut it's not that bad in KDE/GNOME.03:36
ryuoit hasn't grown a lot in the last 10 years.03:36
fysi compiled a fully featured thunar with 1/8th the dependencies with all the same features03:36
ryuo2-4G is still plenty for them.03:36
fysand its quick03:36
ryuoi've used cinnamon with 2G systems before03:37
ryuoit works well enough03:37
fysyeah my pi has 403:38
ryuoi made tradeoff with RAM vs time a lot in my pkgutils rewrite.03:38
ryuolike, using a small RAM cache of a few megabytes to cut the runtime of an operation in half03:38
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alandipertanyway if you run low on RAM, you can download it from various Web Sites04:54
uplimeas a php programmer: what is ram?04:55
alandiperti visited recently, i was amazed to see they're still very much at it04:55
ryuoalandipert: what do you take us for, a bunch of morons?04:56
uplimeyeah, i was just kidding about being a php dev, but I do work with it, and its not _as bad_ anymore04:56
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cruxbot[contrib.git/3.5]: arc-theme: updated source URL06:20
fyshm the 'pixeltool' thingy that comes with qt5 is cool07:00
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msiismHi, I've just tried to boot a Crux 3.5 installation medium and, unfortunately, that didn't go very far. Here's a screenshot of what I ended up with:
msiismACTION has a look at the FAQ12:38
msiismOk, doesn't seem like this is answered in the FAQ.12:39
TimB_this looks like the kernel is missing something for your platform, to me at least12:42
TimB_what kind of hardware are you working with?12:43
msiismWell, the machine has an Intel Core2 Duo CPU.12:43
TimB_last time i worked with that might be 9 years ago :) no idea to be honest12:44
msiismHm... ok. Well, it says legacy IDE quirk. So that is probably related to the disk controller then.12:45
msiismI'll investigate using the Hardware Detection Tool.12:46
TimB_to me, it sounds the same, something around pata/sata in the kernel is missing12:50
msiismAfter the last message I get on the screen, the system is still noticeably active for about half a minute. after that, nothing happens anymore.12:50
msiismWell, booting into a framebuffer console works, at least.12:54
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msiismOk, booting with "nofirewire" works. :)13:04
pedjafwiw, I've used Crux on c2d for almost a decade :)13:04
msiismGood to know. I'll try to do a normal installation now and see how that goes.13:07
msiismBy the way: It should be “Welcome to the CRUX 3.5 installation medium!”, not “media!”, because “media” is plural.13:12
pedjablender's servers are still ddos'd, it seems13:26
msiismSo, for better speed, should I put my swap partition directly after my (100 MB) boot partition instead of after that and my 15G / partitoon?13:36
msiismI mean, the Linux Partition Howto says: “Put each swap partition on the outer tracks.” But how does that translate to partition numbers (normally)?13:39
pedjaat the end. boot, root, (home), swap13:40
msiismOk, thanks.13:40
pedjaswapping will be painful regardless where you put the swap partition :)13:42
msiismI know, I'm experiencing it on a daily basis.13:43
pedjahow much ram?13:43
msiismBut, really, as long as I don't run Firefox or Thunderbird, it's fine.13:43
pedjaouch. I had 6, then 8 on that system, and it was...interesting sometimes13:43
pedja2g on this notebook, ff works fine(ish) :)13:44
pedja(with 10 or less tabs)13:44
msiismI mean, 2G, a few years ago, this was huge. I tend to think it's not sane that programs use so much memory. That's probably why I haven't bought more yet.13:45
msiismSo, if I'm not mistaken, resolv.conf doesn't need to conatin anything for me to be able to get internet access, right?14:55
jaegernot internet access... but for name resolution15:06
msiismOk, I see. I was thinking that the gateway would take care of this if I don't define anything there. And I think that's the case.15:07
msiismBut I should configure it anyway and not simply trust my provider's DNS.15:16
dbrookeDHCP populates it for me but I have configured the DHCP server on my gateway/firewall to use my chosen DNS15:35
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cruxbot[opt.git/3.5]: poppler-qt5: update to 0.85.016:01
cruxbot[opt.git/3.5]: poppler-glib: update to 0.85.016:01
cruxbot[opt.git/3.5]: poppler: update to 0.85.016:01
cruxbot[opt.git/3.5]: mariadb: update to 10.4.1216:02
msiismThe Handbook says, after 'make modules_install', run 'cp arch/x86/boot/bzImage /boot/vmlinuz'. But shouldn't it say 'x86_64' instead?16:02
pedjaiirc, x86_64 bzimage is just a symlink to x86 one? it's been a while16:03
stenurisn't that a link .. yeah!16:03
msiismoh, ok. let me check.16:03
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cruxbot[core.git/3.5]: bindutils: update to 9.14.1016:10
msiismHm... now that's a bit strange. I forogt to generate the grub.cfg file and now wanted to reboot into the installation system, but it always hangs now, even with "nofirewire", which – apparently – had made it work before.16:27
msiismWhen I boot into the framebuffer console, I only get a blank screen.16:28
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msiismOk, booting into fb800 now worked. I'll try to chrott from there and then run grub-mkconfig.16:33
jaegera note about grub-mkconfig, it expects your kernel to be named vmlinuz-* instead of vmlinuz, so you may want to rename or symlink it to something like vmlinuz-x.y.z16:36
msiismoh, ok. i read that, but then overlooked it anyway. thanks for the reminder.16:36
fysif you do make install in the source tree it copies it into /boot with that naming convention16:39
fysso i just do make install from the kernel source these days16:39
msiismah, good to know.16:39
msiismI just moved it to vmlinuz-4.19.48 now.16:40
fysyeah that'll do it16:40
msiismIs there a reason the Handbook suggests coping it manually then?16:40
fysi dont think make install always worked that way16:41
msiismI see.16:41
msiismOk, I found the cause of what seemed like the system was hanging on boot (both the live system and the installed one):16:47
msiismIt's merely the display.16:47
msiismI logged in as root blindly and then ran reboot. That rebooted the machine just fine.16:48
jaegerIf you're booting in EFI mode, grub-mkconfig should figure that out and set up the graphics modules appropriately16:50
jaegerIf you're not, maybe it's just a resolution the display doesn't like16:50
msiismOk, I'm not booting in EFI mode.16:51
msiismWell, with the installed system it always "hangs" at the same point as when I initially booted the installation medium. I guess this could be fixed by using a few boot parameters.16:55
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jaegeryeah, probably some quirk of your specific hardware17:01
msiismHm... how would I go about troubleshooting that? Well, first, I should probably get info on my graphics card.17:08
msiismJust discovered: Botting into recovery mode works.17:09
msiismAnd going with Ctrl+D from there, works too.17:09
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msiismOdd indeed. The graphics card is an Nvidia GeForce 8600 GT. But if it works taking the detour via recovery mode, it's probably not even a genuine hardware quirk.17:51
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stenurWow am i brave. Always had EFI_STUB, now created a boot override manually with efibootmgr. In fear of fear. Of course, kernel now on EFI partition, the BTRFS shared and snapped one can no longer be used. Let's see how this will work on Monday.18:05
stenurYeah, efibootmgr, like the real man do it. (And FreeBSD.)18:10
msiismSo, in Crux, how would I perform a complete system upgrade (excluding ports, I mean). It seems to me that I can only upgrade single packages.18:13
stenurports -u;prt-get --test sysup18:13
msiismso, prt-get can be used for packages from "the base system" and ports?18:16
stenurdoes not matter. this is the ports system.18:17
stenuronly the kernel not.18:17
msiismah, so it's not like "base system" aka "package" = official and "ports" = "third-party recipies".18:19
msiismOk, reading it in the Handbook now.18:20
stenurThe core team can only be thanked for the great care they spend on core. And opt. But contrib and user-private repos are far out, man.18:21
msiismOk, what I still don't understand is this: When I installed the system, 'setup' installed binary packages for all things in 'core', 'opt' and 'xorg'. Will I be able to simply replace those binary packages with newer ones or will upgrading also always involve building the respecitve packages locally?18:27
stenurWait. What do you mean?18:39
msiismYes as in Crux is essentially a source-based distro?18:39
stenurThe install image just has a set of prebuild packages.18:39
stenurYou then compile updated ones on your box, which creates a binary package.18:39
msiismOk, so if I wanted to upgrade Bash, which is in 'core', IIRC, this will onvolve building the new Bash package locally?18:39
msiismI see.18:40
stenurThese you install, which replaces the ones you had from the ISO.18:40
stenurSome also offer binary packages, then you can skip the compilation.18:40
msiismOk, got it. Thanks. Well, then, unfortunately, Crux is not for me.18:41
jaegerThe packages on the install ISO were built from ports18:43
stenuron and you may find updated binary packages.18:43
jaegerand always are18:43
msiismOk, I see.18:45
jaegerso if you're not looking for a source-based distro, yeah18:45
msiismYeah, I mean, my take on this is that it's sort of the point of a distro to run some build server so that not everyone has to build packages at home. But I'm also aware of the fact that this needs a whole lot of resources. And smaller projects just cannot afford that.18:46
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stenurIt of course generates network traffic, and that is not for free.18:49
msiismAnd building a whole lot of packages will also result in quite a bit of electricity costs, especially if you keep them up to date.18:50
stenurI mean more-or-less hobby projects like DragonFly BSD also offer binary packages, they have super-powerful build machines, but they get donations at least me thinks.18:50
stenurI think the core team builds like grazy.18:51
stenurBut you are right of course.18:51
stenurI update once a week, less as my download limit approaches. Only security then. Big ones tend to linger a bit, especially mesa3d, cmake, meson, this kind of stuff.18:53
stenurI do not have that many ports too. No desktop environment. Firefox as binary.18:54
stenurIt is doable with this machine. Wasn't with the old one. But the top energy consumer here is, i guess, firefox when i read newspapers. That is grazy.18:55
stenurAnd then the philosophy of CRUX seems to be personal freedom of choice, not to be forgotten. Possibly with local package overlays.18:56
stenurYou can compile optimized for a specific machine to get everything out of it, or you compile generic, and can use the binaries for all x86_64 machines.19:01
msiismYeah, that's great, but also not too practical for my use case.19:02
stenurBut yes, having binary packages would be nice.19:02
stenurWhen i become a billionair i will setup a CRUX mirror with binary packages.19:02
msiismOk, what's the ETA for that then? :D19:03
stenur'Thing for me is the simplicity of the system, the configuration. No systemd, nice init scripts, just like this. It is wonderful. I was longing for that for years.19:03
msiismTrue, rc.conf is ridicuclously simple.19:04
stenurOh, that will never happen. No interest. Other than that you could get buried under money, errors and insufficient commitment everywhere. Car industry, web design, online newspapers, all shit.19:05
stenurQuality assurance died.19:06
stenur"Not even" Mercedes-Benz is capable of generating a broschure with all-correct data. With that amount of staff, with that many managers. No.19:07
stenurAnd inittab.19:07
jaegerI have considered setting up a build farm in aws or similar to automatically build packages but I have not pursued it and I suspect that could cost a lot over time19:09
msiismyeah, it should not be done with some sort of organization backing the whole thing.19:09
ryuojaeger: OBS might be viable. It's free afaik.19:10
jaegermaybe I'll try to set it up in my home lab as a use for the nomad cluster I just built19:10
jaegerryuo: noted, never used it19:10
ryuoi've heard people also use it for private instances.19:10
ryuoperhaps it's open source as well19:11
ryuoresearching it as an option for building packages for Debian as well as Ubuntu19:11
msiismOk, that all sounds interesting.19:25
msiismI was just wondering if, maybe, some maintainers of Crux work at institutions – like universities, for example – that could host a build server.19:26
uplimemsiism: have you tried out void?19:26
msiismyes, kind of.19:27
msiismit ran on the machine to thich i installed crux today.19:28
msiismI like Void.19:29
msiismBut that package manager, i don't know... :)19:30
msiismAfter having worked with it only for a few minutes I started writing up a prototype wrapper script.19:30
uplimeive installed it but haven't had a chance to play around with it yet19:31
msiismAlso, the thing is that their CI really depends on GitHub. I don't know, but that doesn't exactly give me too much of a good feeling. Maybe I'm too picky, maybe not.19:32
cyberwolf[m]why there is no video on installing crux on youtube19:33
msiismOh I think there is.19:34
msiismBut it's probably better to go by the book anyway.19:34
cruxbot[contrib.git/3.5]: go: updated to version 1.13.719:35
msiismOk, I'll keep Crux on my laptop for a bit. Next thing to do will be configuring wifi.19:39
msiismI'm now timing 'ports -u && prt-get sysup'. Let's see...19:48
TimB_msiism: what would timing that do for you? It's dependent on the ports out of date. If it's sed, might not take long, if it's qt5, on your c2d, it might take a lot of time :)19:59
TimB_i would say: either you are fine with waiting for the compilation of whatever you are using, or not. Timing the sysup however won't really tell you anything19:59
msiismTimB_: It's the intial update after having installed from the ISO, so "pretty unfair", in a way. I was just curious.20:00
msiismBut sure, you're right.20:01
TimB_This is what you sign up for when you use a source based distro20:02
TimB_depending on what you want to run on it, let's say qutebrowser. it depends on qt5, qtwebengine, as well as some python-qt related packages20:02
TimB_i'd say, without having a propper time for it, it will take me around 6-7 hours to build from a clean CRUX base install20:03
TimB_on a i5-3800k20:03
TimB_not the latest and greatest, but that's a considerable amount of time20:03
TimB_i don't want to shy you away from CRUX, I'd love if we got more users :) but it's a fair amount of time you trade in20:03
TimB_nothing compared to the likes of debian/ubuntu20:04
msiismI was meaning unfair as in using sort of the worst case sceanrio as a "first impression".20:05
TimB_then again, it's an initial effort and after that, as long as you are able to relatively sysup in a regular manner, it shouldn't be too much of an annoyance20:05
msiismYeah, that's what i thought.20:05
TimB_ah, got it. Sorry, not a native speaker here :)20:05
msiismme neither, so never mind. :)20:06
TimB_where is SiFuh?20:07
TimB_the taiwan trip i suppose20:07
pedjajaeger, if you are curious about obs
pedjaand yes, it's gpl licenced :)20:17
pedjaafaik, it supports building arch packages, among other usual stuff (deb, rpm, appimage)20:21
pedjaso, in theory, it could be used to build crux packages20:22
msiismACTION looks20:23
pedjabut I think that something using docker containers would be maybe simpler to set up20:29
pedjaiirc, one of the neat things is an automatic rebuild on dependency change20:32
pedjaobs is a complex beast :)20:33
pedjaapparently, few vendors have  private instances running. intel, nvidia, amd, ibm20:34
pedjamsiism, pro tip: use Romster's binary packages for heavy stuff, like llvm, clang, qt520:39
pedjalife is too short to wait for them to build on c2d :)20:39
msiismah, good to know. thanks.20:40
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msiismthere's quite a lot of stuff in there. nice.21:11
pedjathis might be neat for some of you
fyshell yeah, pedja21:21
fysim always buying disk space21:21
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fysi keep backups of my backups21:21
fysim paranoid af21:21
msiismIsn't a single backup not considered a backup anyway?21:22
msiismI've heard people say that.21:22
msiismWell, I have 2 (actually 3) backups of my stuff. So, I guess I'm good. :)21:23
TimB_my crux zfs share needs more platters, but not from :)21:24
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pedjafys, read the bottom of the page. tl;dr he gets a commission for buys from those links21:25
pedjafair enough, for service provided21:25
pedjabackup which you haven't tried to restore from isn't a backup, I think the saying goes21:26
fysmsiism: i backup as much as i can reasonably afford to21:27
fysi have like 3 backups of my home directory21:27
pedjawhat do you use to sync? rsync, borgbackup, restic?21:29
msiismI use rsync, currently. But I've had a look at restic already and might switch sometime.21:32
fyspedja: i use an rsync wrapper I coded.21:34
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pedjaoh, nice. I like the fact that restic is single binary21:39
pedjahad a crux package for it, never got around to play with it21:40
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pedjarestic and rclone are an interesting combination. on my TODO list :)21:42
pedjabut with my, rather pathetic, upload speed, no point really, other then testing with some trivial data21:45
fysthis is in our breakroom21:49
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msiismlooks a bit like the kitchen in "the office" (the US version)21:54
fyswell i am in america21:56
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pedjaI wonder if the amount of swearing, reading the docs and coffee intake decreases as one gets better at coding22:30
stenurRethink in Rust.22:31
uplimepedja: according to xkcd, no :(22:31
stenurAnd use tea.  Coffee kills, says Balzac.  (Also a "coder".)22:32
pedjahe drank a *lot* of it, iirc22:32
uplimei just switched from coffee to tea22:32
pedjacoffee, I mean22:32
uplimeits surprisingly great22:32
stenurI held his hand while he did :).22:33
uplime+ im actually hitting the recommended water intake now22:33
pedjawhich one, uplime ? Earl Grey, hot :) ?22:33
uplimeim still bouncing around trying to find what i like22:33
uplimeearl is on the list22:34
uplime(but yeah hot)22:34
uplimeatm peppermint and english breakfast are both pretty good22:34
uplimebut uh, wildly different tastes22:34
pedjaah, UK. half an hour away from exiting the EU.22:35
uplimei tried irish breakfast tea but it was too hardy22:35
stenurWhy surprisingly. For years i drank Lung Ching.22:35
uplimewhats lung ching?22:36
stenurdrunk. Good-bye Europeans, take me back to, beautiful England.22:36
stenurGreen tea.22:36
stenurAnd herbal mix of two peppermints, camomile, St. John's worth, thousandleaf and, eh, sage.22:38
stenurWith honey at least in the morning.22:38
stenurAll organic of course.22:38
pedjaACTION only drinks camomile tea22:38
pedjatried a few others, didn't particularly like them22:39
stenurYeah. I have fallen. Only peppermint _or_ camomile. And some coffee each day.22:39
stenurI fell. Fallen. Boom. No release no more in January. February made me shiver. Sigh.22:40
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jaegersheesh. spent hours today chasing down a bug in cobbler for work23:44
jaegerat least now I can boot UEFI PXE installs of CentOS 723:56

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